Zone Travel Updates in Issue 27

[Glacier Peak]

Just now, ZacKing said:

So you only want feedback that says it did or didn't work?  If you don't want to know what people like or dislike, don't ask for their feedback. 

Would you be opposed to continuing this discussion through direct message so it doesn't clog this thread?

[ZacKing]

no thanks.

[Myrmidon]

16 hours ago, Jimmy said:

 

We listened to all the feedback intently, and the valid feedback was acted upon.

A signature worthy quote if ever there was one.🌟

 

 

Dev team, thank you for both leaving us the convenience of the /basepasscode until something similar could be implemented and making all of these transport powers relevant with your solution.

[Jacke]

30 minutes ago, ZacKing said:

if you've got 40 pages of "I don't like it" posts, that should be a good indicator that your idea didn't work.

 

Decades ago, in a magazine about board wargames, there was an article that refuted that argument.

 

Back then it was about mailing surveys.  Which several companies did, one quite frequently, to help gauge how well some of their ideas would sell if developed into a product.

 

The problem was the survey responses were in no way truly representative of the player base.  They were at most a small non-random fraction of the player base, self-selected to those that really wanted to be heard.  Even with written-in addenda to the multiple choice surveys, they were less helpful than first thought and could often hurt if followed too closely without further judgement on the choices.  Some very bad games that didn't sell at all came from that.

 

Now it's game forums.  Still for every game, a small non-random fraction of the player base, self-selected to those that really want to be heard.  Still not likely to be representative of the player base as a whole.

 

The devs know this.  They have the stats for how many accounts, how many toons, how many posts how often.

 

Just depending on a volume of posts saying that's crap, politely or otherwise, isn't going to work with anyone who's been to a few of these rodeos.  You have to support what you say with a proper argument.

 

Understanding what and why the devs did what they did what they did.  Making a respectful argument showing its issues.  Proposing other workable solutions that fits within the constrains that can only be moved a little or sometimes not at all.  Making your point and not repeating yourself excessively.

 

That is the way.  It's how several of i27p1 changes were improved over the open beta.  It's how things will continue to improve.  And maybe even reconsider some things.

Edited November 25, 2020 by Jacke

[ZacKing]

2 minutes ago, Jacke said:

Understanding what and why the devs did what they did what they did.  Making a respectful argument showing its issues.  Proposing other workable solutions that fits within the constrains that can only be moved a little or sometimes not at all.  Making your point and not repeating yourself excessively.

this is why you have people making multiple posts.  back and forth is part of normal discussion.  nice try though.

[Ironblade]

9 hours ago, Troo said:

To clarify: Yes, they did.

August of 2019 as I recall. It was explained what it's intention was and that they understood how it could be exploited in a number of ways.

A few of the examples were related to PvP and some of them weren't. It's okay. Lots of people didn't abuse it and are now confused.

To clarify further, yes they characterized it as an exploit a year ago.  Also, they were aware of the PvP usage, which is clearly an exploit, a year ago.

 

But, as they have specifically pointed out, they were not aware of the GAME-BREAKING exploit a year ago.  It was only discovered recently (October of this year, I believe).  So there are actually a whole raft of exploits associated with the command.  The ones known early on (PvP, Master badge runs, maybe others) were not considered that serious.

[Jacke]

Just now, ZacKing said:

this is why you have people making multiple posts.  back and forth is part of normal discussion.  nice try though.

But in all things moderation (even moderation sometimes 🙂 ).  Going too far, drawing out the argument too long, that often hurts you position.

[Mr. Vee]

11 hours ago, Six Six said:

It just occurred to me that with the Fast Travel Menu, if you had 1 more travel powers that began with E and change Monitor Duty to execute with N, you can then rearrange the list so that the Key shortcuts spell LOBSTERMAN.

Sorry... back to your regular programming 😃

 

Whereas now they rearrange to BDSM OR ALT...coincidence or new RP meme? you decide.

[ZacKing]

13 minutes ago, Jacke said:

But in all things moderation (even moderation sometimes 🙂 ).  Going too far, drawing out the argument too long, that often hurts you position.

and sometimes a point needs to be repeatedly before its understood properly.  anyway, agree to disagree.  best not to clutter up the thread anymore.

[therealtitanman]

43 minutes ago, Jacke said:

 

Decades ago, in a magazine about board wargames, there was an article that refuted that argument.

 

Back then it was about mailing surveys.  Which several companies did, one quite frequently, to help gauge how well some of their ideas would sell if developed into a product.

 

The problem was the survey responses were in no way truly representative of the player base.  They were at most a small non-random fraction of the player base, self-selected to those that really wanted to be heard.  Even with written-in addenda to the multiple choice surveys, they were less helpful than first thought and could often hurt if followed too closely without further judgement on the choices.  Some very bad games that didn't sell at all came from that.

 

Now it's game forums.  Still for every game, a small non-random fraction of the player base, self-selected to those that really want to be heard.  Still not likely to be representative of the player base as a whole.

 

The devs know this.  They have the stats for how many accounts, how many toons, how many posts how often.

 

Just depending on a volume of posts saying that's crap, politely or otherwise, isn't going to work with anyone who's been to a few of these rodeos.  You have to support what you say with a proper argument.

 

Understanding what and why the devs did what they did what they did.  Making a respectful argument showing its issues.  Proposing other workable solutions that fits within the constrains that can only be moved a little or sometimes not at all.  Making your point and not repeating yourself excessively.

 

That is the way.  It's how several of i27p1 changes were improved over the open beta.  It's how things will continue to improve.  And maybe even reconsider some things.

 

24 minutes ago, ZacKing said:

and sometimes a point needs to be repeatedly before its understood properly.  anyway, agree to disagree.  best not to clutter up the thread anymore.

is the same the dev ask for why players like and they dont like.

not every player giving the way of expression is wall of text how to solve the problem.

 

But the same guy straight slap "BUT HUSH, READ THE FAQS" is the problem cause the endless quote of qq and attack, plus selective quote will spark endless miss inform drama.

 

1 quote 2 quote is fine, almost every comment were white knight slap with "i like your suggestion BUT I THINK YOU SHOULD HUSH and read GM FAQS".

Edited November 25, 2020 by therealtitanman

[Coyotedancer]

I'm just going to say that I love the LRT... I seriously do, and I'm glad it exists. It's a great addition to the game in my opinion. The new teleport destinations (Shard zones! Woo!) likewise.

 

Why do I love it? As I've said in the beta threads, I deal with long map-loading times when I play. The /enterbase command was *never* an "instant travel" option for me. I'd hit it, then wait around a minute or two while my 10k+ object ridiculous sprawl of a base loaded, only to have to jog to the teleporters, click my choice and then wait ANOTHER few minutes for the zone to load. It was not, by any means, a particularly fast process. Faster than flying my slow butt to a tram, certainly, but still much more turtle than hare. 

 

The LRT lets me by-pass loading the base, effectively halving my travel time. That's a Good Thing. A nice change of pace, and something I appreciate a lot.

 

Was it *fun* having to hunt down all of those exploration badges on 55 alts? Honestly... no. It really wasn't. One-badge-per-zone was infinitely better than the original plan that called for having to have the eight-badge accolade for every zone you wanted, but it was still sort-of a pain in the rump. Particularly on my vig and my rogues, who had to collect them all for both sides. Still, I considered the tedium something of an investment. "Do this annoying thing once for each of the gang, and then you have a Really Nice Toy to play with from there on." So, worth it ultimately. 

 

The only complaint I really have about it is the cool-down timing. I just casually tinkered around with it on test, but after using it "for real" while playing yesterday afternoon and last evening there were several occasions when I found myself standing around waiting for it to recharge. I didn't use it constantly, between every mission... sometimes Ouro was convenient, or the tram or TUNNEL was *right there*, and yes, I COULD have just eaten the extra load time and done a base-hop... But there were still occasions when it would have been nice to have my BAMFing back somewhat sooner. (We have a lot of "FedEx run" missions in this game. <_<)

 

So, if I could wave a wand and change anything? I'd just make the cool down five minutes like the Ouro portals instead of ten,

Other than that... I ❤️ this thing. I really do. 

 

 

 

Edited November 25, 2020 by Coyotedancer

[Bopper]

8 hours ago, Number Six said:

Back when I posted that, I wanted to make it clear that the behavior of enterbasefrompasscode was not intended, and using it for fast travel was technically an exploit...

Can we have this pinned/starred? This response is too good to be buried on Page 7 of the comments. I think everyone should read it.

[Jimmy]

Some quick things based on feedback we've seen that'll be in the next patch:

• Fixed the Faultline Long Range Teleporter unlock looking at the badges in Echo: Faultline rather than Faultline proper
• Teleportation powers in P2W now have text descriptions rather than just saying "Buy me!"
• Zones in LRT are now coloured based on their location
  • These colours are just a first pass and can be adjusted - please give us your feedback!

[Oklahoman]

14 minutes ago, Jimmy said:

• Zones in LRT are now coloured based on their location
  • These colours are just a first pass and can be adjusted - please give us your feedback!

Am I the only one who would at least like to have the option to alphabetize these, rather than listing by side and level?

[Runebound]

I'll admit it: in Live, I liked that travel took a bit of time and creative problem-solving. It felt good to exercise game knowledge in linking two efficient transfers, or to appreciate your travel power as an integral part of the game.

 

But it's a matter of balance. I don't miss weak Sprint or the level 14 gate for travel powers. I'm grateful for Ninja Run and glad the Homecoming devs make it readily available. Here, I wonder if we could hit the right balance with two tweaks?

 

1. Grant a temporary "Summon Base Portal" power to players running a TF, so stragglers neither miss out nor hold things up. Or shorten the CD for LRT while on a TF
2. Grant access to the LRT account-wide, removing the busywork of standing in Pocket D, getting a Day Job Accolade, etc.

 

1) can ease the trouble our teams had in TF's yesterday. With uneven access to base teleporting, we had the worst of both worlds: TFs took longer (without offering any more fun), while in several missions, half the players got surprisingly far ahead while the others struggled to catch up.

 

If you wanted to keep solo players from exploiting the LFG queue for access, you could reduce the CD by number of players (1 min per person on the TF), or grant the temporary Summon Base Portal power after the second or third mission.

 

 

2) may sound like a small thing - just stand in Pocket D for an hour! Just get Exploration Badges! - but it's maybe the most important point. If a game starts to feel like work, people stop playing. That's actually why I'm here now (thanks, BDO, for driving me away with a crappy reliance on semi-afk play).

 

Given that I've been here only 2 months, I have, well,  an embarrassing number of alts that I play near daily.  Spending dozens of hours in Pocket D isn't fun for me, nor is managing the Day Job shuffle. Exploration Badges are active, but I still hate to do them for every alt. I could skip it -  I get that fast travel can be seen as a privilege, not a right - but since TFs are my favorite part of the game, I also hate to hold up my team, or miss part of each mission while they begin without me. See #1.

 

Any chance of adding those tweaks?

 

 

Edited November 25, 2020 by Runebound
Removed #3, request to lower Base Portal cost. Didn't know there's a personal version for 1 mil!

[Troo]

22 minutes ago, Oklahoman said:

Am I the only one who would at least like to have the option to alphabetize these, rather than listing by side and level?

Whoa hold on there tex!

yes please

[Glacier Peak]

1 minute ago, Runebound said:

Grant access to the LRT account-wide, removing the busywork of standing in Pocket D, getting a Day Job Accolade, etc.

 

2) may sound like a small thing - just stand in Pocket D for an hour! Just get Exploration Badges! - but it's maybe the most important point. If a game starts to feel like work, people stop playing. That's actually why I'm here now (thanks, BDO, for driving me away with a crappy reliance on semi-afk play).

 

Given that I've been here only 2 months, I have, well,  an embarrassing number of alts that I play near daily.  Spending dozens of hours in Pocket D isn't fun for me, nor is managing the Day Job shuffle. Exploration Badges are active, but I still hate to do them for every alt. I could skip it -  I get that fast travel can be seen as a privilege, not a right - but since TFs are my favorite part of the game, I also hate to hold up my team, or miss part of each mission while they begin without me. See #1.

These are great suggestions with superb explanation and reasoning. I'd like to discuss your second suggestion, specifically, why you think it should be granted account wide. The reasoning you stated makes sense to me, it would indeed be convenient for an accolade power to be granted account wide in order to skip the time investment, especially if you have a number of alts, as you say. I understand that.

 

My counter-argument would be that no accolade power in the game is or has ever been granted account wide. Your suggestion would be changing precedent for convenience alone - is that a fair assessment?

 

Looking at this from another perspective, would you say someone who spends the majority of their time (yet the exact same amount of time you spend over a number of separate characters) on one of their characters, thereby concentrating time and effort, should be allowed the opportunity to have access to faster methods of travel, such as the plethora that have been given through the release of this issue? Building up that character requires an investment of time - rewards aren't given out freely for the sake of convenience.

 

I look forward to your reply, and again, great suggestions!

[America's Angel]

@Jimmy Colours look good! They're fine as they are tbh, but if you were going to change anything, maybe...

-Recolour the shadow shard zones to a different blue? (They are hero zones, after all)

-Also do this for the hazard zones?

-Make co-op zones like RWZ, Pocket D, Dark Astoria, and Cimerora purple instead? (Red+Blue = purple!)

Edited November 25, 2020 by America's Angel

[KeepDistance]

So here's my feedback on this change (and generally on the patch):

 

1) It's too fiddly. I get that enterbasefrompasscode was exploitable. What replaced that one broken command is a complex interweaving of things that I wish I didn't have to spend game-brainpower trying to track. I suppose I'll learn it eventually, but it feels like busywork to do so.

 

2) It should have been done incrementally. Landing this set of changes all at once makes me feel like not playing the game because there's this long slog of re-learning things I used to already know. Incrementally adding options would have given the player base more time to adapt.

 

3) The removal of enterbasefrompasscode happened way, way too late. I held off on using it for months because I heard it wasn't supposed to be there, but over time, a whole bunch of positive playerbase effects started to emerge, of which TF speedrunning tricks were by far my favorite. As of last month, more than a year after I learned about ebfp, I was still learning new techniques to try. I think, in all honesty, if ebfp had just been removed as soon as it was noticed, none of the complaints here would be an issue because those positive playerbase effects wouldn't have had time to take root.

 

4) I would strongly prefer an option for unlocking things account wide. It doesn't have to be trivial the way ebfp was; earning powers for one character could for example earn progress towards a different account-wide accolade that grants the same powers. As it stands, I'm likely going to ignore most of the travel options on my alts, focusing only on the ones I will definitely need. The net effect is me being less likely to play the breadth of content the game offers. For others, the net effect might be creating fewer alts.

 

[Jacke]

57 minutes ago, Runebound said:

When I see that I can unlock the two P2W base summons by devoting the Merits of 10 TFs per character, that's daunting. Ten characters is a hundred TFs... all so I can keep up with teammates in the next hundred. At the same time, I see that for many players, 20 mil is nothing, or near enough that there's slight difference between another 2 mil and another 20 mil per character.

When I brought this up in another topic, a dev said it was expected that players would take their Reward Merits and make the best use of them to improve their toons.  As I've known for a long time, the best use of Merits is buying the best Salvage to sell on the Auction House to get Influence to then buy everything the toon needs.  Not anything else.  (The next step after getting enough Inf is to buy the Super Packs to get the stuff you want out of them and sell the rest, but that's a ways off for now.)

 

Getting the Atlas Exploration Accolade is the quickest way to unlock Long Range Teleporter.  It also pays 5 Merits.  That's about a million Inf from it alone.  There's current development on making a sequence of Tips to guide you through the Badges in a zone, eventually for all of them.  Every Zone, all 8 Badges is another 5 Merits which can become another million Inf.

 

Merits come from Exploration Accolades, completed mission arcs, Task Forces, and Trials.  The first Weekly Strike Target (WST, at least 2 Task Forces/Trial a week, not iTrial, at least one 1 Blueside, 1 Redside) completed pays out double Merits.  Some of these numbers have changed, but look here:

 

https://hcwiki.cityofheroes.dev/wiki/Task_Force

https://hcwiki.cityofheroes.dev/wiki/Strike_Force

 

The second Task Force Blueside, Synapse, pays out 58 Merits.  Plus another 3 for taking down Babbage near the end of the Task Force.  Even at 70,000 Inf average per Converter (I've sold them for more and bought them for less), that's 12.8 million Inf from one Task Force.  Plus whatever you get for Inf rewards from defeating mobs and mission rewards as well as selling loot drops.

 

The best consistent source of Influence from just playing the game is a level 50 toon.  They make millions of Inf directly on every play session.  Plus everything else.  Not a farmer.  Any level 50 toon.  Pick the toon you like the most and start having fun on the road to 50.  When you start an arc, finish it to get the Merits.  More of the WSTs will be accessible for their doubled payout.

 

And my 32 million Inf purchase of starting Prestige Powers is pure luxury (I've got 16 toons so far and over 2000 million Inf).  Even a few million or so will get most of them.  2 Powers alone are 10 million each (Team Transporter, Supergroup Portal).

 

I'm testing this on toons that only bankroll themselves.  And some of my bankrolled toons haven't used any of their earned Merits.  I've got a level 20 toon with 59 Merits.  That's over 12 million Inf worth for a toon I've barely played, likely 16 million if I wait for the price of the Salvage to shift up.  He's got both Posi Task Forces (26 Merits) and 5 Exploration Accolades (25 Merits), so that's another 8 Merits from 2 or 3 mission arcs.

Edited November 25, 2020 by Jacke

[BZRKR]

RE: Colored Zone Text

Big Thumbs UP!

I like the color choices as is, but would not be mad if the Shadow Shard was a slightly bluer purple (but I do like that they are easily differentiated.)

I like that the Rogue Isles zones are orange so that Red is still available for other uses (such as some kind of "Long Range Teleporter System Outage" event, or to show what zones of the Cities are being attacked by Battalion or whatever).

[Jacke]

13 minutes ago, KeepDistance said:

3) The removal of enterbasefrompasscode happened way, way too late.

Perhaps it should have been turned off for general use last year.

 

But /enterbasefrompasscode hasn't been removed with i27p1.  It's been restricted.  Need to be within 45ft of a Base Portal, including the summoned portals.  Or invoked the 5 powers (LRT, Base Transporter, Day Job temp Monitor Duty Teleporter, Supergroup Portal, Day Job Accolade temp Rapid Response Portal), don't select, but use a /ebfp command.  Or be inside a base, where it can be used continually.

Edited November 25, 2020 by Jacke

[Uun]

I don't think this has been suggested, but this is a long thread and I may have missed it. There's no easy way to see what zones you've unlocked for LRT without activating LRT (which then goes on cooldown for 10 minutes). Since exploration badges unlock zones for LRT, would it be possible for the exploration badge list in the badges tab to have headings added listing the zone or to append the zone name to the badge title? Alternatively, is there some way to list the zones unlocked without activating LRT?

[Mr. Vee]

I like the Colored Zone text as well. I was going to suggest that the shard be moved below the villain zones but then I remembered I'd already decided not to get the shard or praetoria explores 😄 

[Jacke]

9 minutes ago, Uun said:

I don't think this has been suggested, but this is a long thread and I may have missed it. There's no easy way to see what zones you've unlocked for LRT without activating LRT (which then goes on cooldown for 10 minutes). Since exploration badges unlock zones for LRT, would it be possible for the exploration badge list in the badges tab to have headings added listing the zone or to append the zone name to the badge title? Alternatively, is there some way to list the zones unlocked without activating LRT?

That's a very good point.  Though technically it doesn't go on cooldown until you zone after invoking the power (which is what the red ring around the power means).

 

You can see which Accolade Badges are for Exploration by their sideways spikey look, with the centre gem Blue in Paragon City, Red in the Rogue Isles, Yellow in Praetoria, a special Hazard Gates icon for Hazard Zones.  And every one of them when earned has a label that says which zone they are for.  It could be improved though.

 

Take a look here to see what I mean.

https://hcwiki.cityofheroes.dev/wiki/Hero_Accolade_Badges

https://hcwiki.cityofheroes.dev/wiki/Villain_Accolade_Badges

https://hcwiki.cityofheroes.dev/wiki/Praetorian_Accolade_Badges

Edited November 25, 2020 by Jacke