Aren't there diminishing returns for Enchancements?

[MikeSol]

I vaguely remember something about diminishing returns for using more then three enhancements of the same type. So using more then three damage enhancements in the same power wasn't recommended. Am I remembering this correctly? Does this apply to both Single Origin and Invention enhancements?

[Carnifax]

Yes and yes. As Enhancement Value gets towards 100% dimishing returns rapidly kicks in. Especially once you get over 90%. 

 

It also counts some of the Incarnate Alpha (as those are Enhancement values rather than a global boost), but some of the Alpha can ignore it. 

 

 

 

[Greycat]

https://hcwiki.cityofheroes.dev/wiki/Enhancement_Diversification

 

Uuuuse the wiki, luke. :) (If you ever lose it, it's under "more" at the top of the page. Unofficial Homecoming Wiki.)

[Glacier Peak]

There are enhancement diminishing returns and there is also another level of diminishing returns from PvP that is steeeeeep!

[Thrythlind]

In general, at 3 max SOs of a single type, you've pretty much hit limit of usefulness in slotting more. I do remember a bit of an outcry when this happened, though I had already been slotting enhancements for diverse stat boosts anyway, so I mostly shrugged past it.

[ZemX]

8 minutes ago, Thrythlind said:

I do remember a bit of an outcry when this happened

 

Oh... there was a "bit", yes. 😂

[Ironblade]

3 hours ago, Carnifax said:

Yes and yes. As Enhancement Value gets towards 100% dimishing returns rapidly kicks in. Especially once you get over 90%.

This is accurate for damage, accuracy, endurance reduction, etc.  These are 'Schedule A Enhancements'.

But 'Schedule B Enhancements', like defense, damage resistance, to hit buff, etc scale to a lower number.  You hit the ED limits around 55%.

Schedule C and D enhancements (interrupt reduction, knockback, etc) scale to a HIGHER number.  You don't see much drop-off until after 100% or 150% (for C and D respectively).

[Doomguide2005]

And ED or diminishing returns effect the total values the enhancements are generating so if for example you've got a menagerie of generic IOs, SOs, HOs (Hamidon Origin) and anything else in a power ED will apply.

[Zhym]

And just to complicate things, one of the big advantages of the Alpha incarnate power is partially ignoring ED.

[Ghost]

I’m so confused now

 

is there a simple rule to follow?

3 for attack?

3 for defense?

6 for any you plan to purple?

 

[ScrewlooseCohh]

The simple rule is that enhancement value diminishes (to basically zero) after 3 SOs worth.

 

So you can slot 3 Damage, One Acc, One Recharge and one and reducer SO in an attack power and not suffer from Diminshment, but if you slot 4 Damage then the last one you will get very little value from.

 

If you are slotting crafted basic IOs then two level 50 IOs will get you close to the threshold.

 

For IO sets there isn't anything you can do you have to take whatever the set gives you.

 

And read the wiki, people have spent time typing out good info there.

 

regards, Screwloose.

"I am not young enough to know everything."

[Zhym]

For SOs and basic non-set IOs, the simple rule is at more than three, the effects diminish sharply.  For enhancement sets, that all changes because the enhancements typically boost multiple effects (damage/accuracy, damage/recharge, etc.) and are designed so that having the whole set won’t trigger ED.  And a Hami origin basically counts as one of each of the two things it boosts.

 

But with basic SOs and IOs, stop at three.

 

I usually go for enhancement sets by the time any powers have 5 or 6 slots, so I don’t have a recommended basic slotting, but Dmgx3, Acc, End, Rech seems a reasonable approach.  But really, you’ll get much better results out of an uncommon enhancement set, which shouldn’t cost much money.

[Ukase]

20 hours ago, Greycat said:

https://hcwiki.cityofheroes.dev/wiki/Enhancement_Diversification

 

Uuuuse the wiki, luke. 🙂 (If you ever lose it, it's under "more" at the top of the page. Unofficial Homecoming Wiki.)

 

This. 
When HC first came back on, there was no HC Wiki, but we still have the original Paragon Wiki to reference. Slowly, over time, the HC wiki is editing, adapting and updating. Still, the wiki will answer 80-90% of any question any player would have. I can't endorse it strongly enough. 

Be empowered. Use the wiki. Bookmark it. Have the tab open while you play. Unless you're just killing time in a fire farm, you'll undoubtedly use it routinely. 

[SuggestorK]

18 hours ago, Thrythlind said:

In general, at 3 max SOs of a single type, you've pretty much hit limit of usefulness in slotting more. I do remember a bit of an outcry when this happened, though I had already been slotting enhancements for diverse stat boosts anyway, so I mostly shrugged past it.

 

I remember that "bit" too, Pitchforks and Torches all over the forum/chat Channels, Players rdy to storm Jake Emmerts castle and burn it down to the ground 🙂 . Thats one Reason his name still appears in Radio/Newspaper Missions.

Edited August 12, 2021 by SuggestorK

[arcane]

16 hours ago, Ghost said:

I’m so confused now

 

is there a simple rule to follow?

3 for attack?

3 for defense?

6 for any you plan to purple?

 

If you want an all-encompassing “rule”, that’d be the wiki link above. If you’re not a loser mac user like me though, you don’t have to use formulas; it’s just built into your shiny mids.

 

Note that a fraction of your Alpha incarnate is applied before ED formulas, and a fraction is applied after.

Edited August 12, 2021 by arcane

[Thrythlind]

On 8/11/2021 at 7:08 PM, Ghost said:

I’m so confused now

 

is there a simple rule to follow?

3 for attack?

3 for defense?

6 for any you plan to purple?

 

 

Varies, before IOs my standard for attacks was:

2 Acc, 2 Dam and either 2 End or 2 Rech depending

 

For Defense it was 3 Def/Res and 3 End for toggles, for passives just 3 Def/Res

 

For Heals 2 Heal 2 Rech 2 End mostly. 2 Acc 2 Heal 2 Rech for vamp-heals like Transfusion or Life-Drain.

 

Once IOs came out things got a lot more complicated. Mids Hero Planner helps a bit.

[Aurora_Girl]

On 8/11/2021 at 12:32 PM, ZemX said:

 

Oh... there was a "bit", yes. 😂

 

Oh dear God the HOWLING. Friggin' Regen scrappers. Jesus. I now have two children and I would rather go back to their baby-wailing days than ever have to deal with ED moaning. 😛

[Shenanigunner]

On 8/11/2021 at 8:41 AM, Greycat said:

Uuuuse the wiki, luke.

 

Well, it would be a lot more useful if half of it wasn't out of date and much of the rest... sketchy and incomplete.

 

I've tried to use the wiki (both of them) to validate and update stuff I work on, and I have all but given up after finding so many entries stuck in the Live era, or composed of little more than unfinished, cryptic text clipped from the game. (One more SOMEONE PUT ACTUAL NUMBERS HERE SOMEDAY flag, or the like, and I think I'll scream.)

 

Some entries are useful. Many are useful as long as you understand their limitations. But overall... an encyclopedia in which only one in ten articles can be trusted isn't much use at all.

 

 

Edited August 15, 2021 by Shenanigunner

[Col. Kernel]

On 8/12/2021 at 6:38 AM, SuggestorK said:

 

I remember that "bit" too, Pitchforks and Torches all over the forum/chat Channels, Players rdy to storm Jake Emmerts castle and burn it down to the ground 🙂 . Thats one Reason his name still appears in Radio/Newspaper Missions.

 

That's far from the only reason Emmert is despised.  I'm inclined to think that City is the fantastic game that it is in spite of him rather than because of him.

[tidge]

On 8/11/2021 at 8:08 PM, Ghost said:

I’m so confused now

 

is there a simple rule to follow?

 

Simple, but not exactly easy: Look at the default bonuses for a given (level 50) Hamidon enhancement. the ED penalty for that "schedule" type kicks in at 2x the value of an HO.

 

My own "rules of thumb" for when I want MOAR of a single type of boost (e.g. recharge) are:

• Single slots: use an IO and Boost to 50+5
• If using two slots (and a set bonus is not "worth it"), use 2xIO boosted to 50+5, as this will almost be "close enough" to 3x unboosted IO.

Once I have invested more than 2 slots in a power, I am almost certainly trying to leverage either a specific Global effect from an enhancement, a %proc, or I am chasing a set bonus, so I'm not that worried about Enhancement Diversification... except of course to not to "waste" slots that could be better used in another power.

Edited August 16, 2021 by tidge

[TheZag]

Im partially to blame for enhancement diversification.  It probably would have happened anyway,  but maybe a few issues later.

 

Depending how you feel about enhancement diversification,  either Im sorry or you're welcome.

 

Edit:  Back on live there wasnt much interest in fighting hamidon.  I did everything i could to get players interested to battle him,  so much that we made a supergroup called Hamidon Death Squad.  My server, Liberty, wasnt the first to kill hamidon but we were the first to get a 'farmable' kill method.  This all happened shortly before pvp and players with alot of Hami-o's absolutely wrecked everyone else in pvp.  The Dev solution was enhancement diversification.  So you couldnt run 6 Acc/Dam in all your attacks and destroy everyone.  So it probably would have happened eventually anyway but getting lined up with pvp probably made it happen sooner.

 

Hope that clears it up.  🙂

Edited August 17, 2021 by TheZag

[SuggestorK]

13 hours ago, Col. Kernel said:

 

That's far from the only reason Emmert is despised.  I'm inclined to think that City is the fantastic game that it is in spite of him rather than because of him.

 

Jepp thats why i said its one but i never said its the only reason.

 

7 minutes ago, TheZag said:

Im partially to blame for enhancement diversification.  It probably would have happened anyway,  but maybe a few issues later.

 

Depending how you feel about enhancement diversification,  either Im sorry or you're welcome.

Personally ED didnt hit me very much... i didnt even slotting 6 Damage SO before it hit. Pretty much i have the same Slotting as before, 1 Acc 1End Reduc 1 Rech + 3 Dam before i go sets on that power.

The once and only Moment when i was close to Leave CoH forever was the release of Issue 2 when he was in the Big Chair too, forced Bosses in each mission, try a Skull Boss without Fitness Pool with only a few slots and mabye 1-5 TO at lvl 5 in Kings Row, was nearly impossible to solo 1 basic mish aka forced teaming, even my Claw/Regen Scrapper had issues with it. But luckely I 3 hit and it was back to Lieuts with Boss Powers at Mish End.

 

Greetings

[Col. Kernel]

3 hours ago, TheZag said:

Im partially to blame for enhancement diversification.  It probably would have happened anyway,  but maybe a few issues later.

 

Depending how you feel about enhancement diversification,  either Im sorry or you're welcome.

 

I think ED was partially responsible for IOs, so it's all good.

[TraumaTrain]

I'm just really jazzed to be here. 

[srmalloy]

19 hours ago, Col. Kernel said:

I think ED was partially responsible for IOs, so it's all good.

IIRC, Positron commented at one point that ED was necessary to make IOs (particularly sets) viable, so you're correct there.