General Feedback: Issue 27, Page 3

[Vanden]

10 minutes ago, Riverdusk said:

 

Run the tutorial, sell the two big inspirations you get for free on the AH, and you are pretty much on the way to the whole 24,000 inf you need at level 1.  At the least you'll tend to get the 8k you need for 8 hours of the most important amp (the defensive one). 

 

I'd hardly call that a marketeering tactic.  You basically just have to know the AH exists.  Someone absolutely new to the game maybe wouldn't know, but it hardly takes long to learn /ah or to get together enough inf at low levels to afford them.

 

Where in the tutorial does it tell players about the auction house or /ah? Nowhere that I can recall. And what new player is gonna look at the inspirations the tutorials give you and think, “I bet I can sell that!”?

 

One thing the tutorials do do, however, is get you to level 2, which quadruples the cost of amplifiers. 

 

New players who who are taking advantage of amplifiers just do not exist.

Edited November 17, 2021 by Vanden

[Wavicle]

2 minutes ago, GraspingVileTerror said:

Hell, with the changes to SO availability, 24,000 or even 200,000 isn't unobtainable.  

 

And let's expose another element of this:  Donations from veterans to new players.

Used to be that 1,000,000 to 50,000,000 was more than enough to give a new player a terrific head start.

Now I've got to decide between giving a new player 200,000,000 or more to get them to that same place, or cut back on my assistance to these players?  

Doesn't feel too good to me.

 

None of these things are necessary. SOs are easily attainable for the new player and that makes the low levels plenty easy. If a new player is having so much trouble that they need amplifiers then you would be helping them more by giving them advice on how to play than by giving them inf.

[GraspingVileTerror]

"Necessary?"  Ah ah ah!

https://forums.homecomingservers.com/topic/32055-pv2-vendor-sell-a-permanent-or-temp-hold-power/page/2/#comment-410175

 

And of course I give them advice.

But not everyone has the same inherent skills or abilities.  

That's the whole point of improving the available Accessibility Options to all players.

[Wavicle]

1 minute ago, GraspingVileTerror said:

"Necessary?"  Ah ah ah!

https://forums.homecomingservers.com/topic/32055-pv2-vendor-sell-a-permanent-or-temp-hold-power/page/2/#comment-410175

 

And of course I give them advice.

But not everyone has the same inherent skills or abilities.  

That's the whole point of improving the available Accessibility Options to all players.

you can lower difficulty to -1. I see no reason for the amplifiers to exist at all, but since they do, I see no problem making them an expensive option for leveling alts, sort of like heirloom weapons in other games. A new player should build up to power instead of having it handed to them just like in every other game ever.

[GraspingVileTerror]

I think you may want to expand your play experiences if you think every game works that way.

 

And frankly, you and I aren't the ones to judge how a new player -should- get to play.

That's the point.

The Amplifiers exist as an excellent tool for players to choose their own play experience.  They could be implemented a bit better, or a more thoughtful Easy Mode could be added, but for now, in the absence of better options, the Amplifiers fill an excellent role which I don't want to see lost.

[Wavicle]

Just now, GraspingVileTerror said:

I think you may want to expand your play experiences if you think every game works that way.

 

And frankly, you and I aren't the ones to judge how a new player -should- get to play.

That's the point.

The Amplifiers exist as an excellent tool for players to choose their own play experience.  They could be implemented a bit better, or a more thoughtful Easy Mode could be added, but for now, in the absence of better options, the Amplifiers fill an excellent role which I don't want to see lost.

except that isn’t why they exist at all. they were added to be a Real Money expenditure. You’re trying to rewrite history to suit your opinion of how the game should be.

[Riverdusk]

2 minutes ago, Vanden said:

 

Where in the tutorial does it tell players about the auction house or /ah? Nowhere that I can recall. And what new player is gonna look at the inspirations the tutorials give you and think, “I bet I can sell that!”?

 

One thing the tutorials do do, however, is get you to level 2, which quadruples the cost of amplifiers. 

 

New players who who are taking advantage of amplifiers just do not exist.

 

Depends on your definition of "new".  Why I specifically said in my example someone absolutely brand new to the game probably wouldn't know.  Someone who's played a few hours/days and wants to roll a new alt to go along with his first character that got up to level 15 or 20?  I'd still consider that player "new" and by that point I'd expect them to know a few basic things.  At the very least, how to email 24,000 inf to that new alt or sell things using /ah.  Honestly even a player who has played for a few weeks and has several characters into the 30's or 40's I'd still consider "new" personally.  Alts are big part of this game (to most people).

 

Regardless, besides the point to me.  My main issue is still how this actually makes these cheaper for level 50's (by being able to make them last longer at the same price) and more expensive for everyone pre-50.   Those that are against "power creep" shouldn't be happy with these things being even cheaper (relatively) for the characters that are already the most powerful.  As I said, I have nothing against the prices being raised, but I prefer just the scale increased so that it actually hits level 50's as well. 

 

Overall for what they do, these buffs are cheap even currently imo, for every level.  No need to make them even cheaper for level 50's.

[GraspingVileTerror]

The why of their initial implementation doesn't detract from their current value.

 

Emergent gameplay is a thing, and I strongly believe it should be embraced and nurtured, ESPECIALLY in City of Heroes.

Inclusivity and diversity have been inherent parts of this game's fundamental identity since the beginning.  Not executed to perfection, of course, but the importance of personal choice and personal identity expression through the game shows up in all these places.  Yes, even in a real-money "Pay to Win" gacha that was modified when the game became not-for-profit.

[Wavicle]

  

2 minutes ago, GraspingVileTerror said:

The why of their initial implementation doesn't detract from their current value.

 

Emergent gameplay is a thing, and I strongly believe it should be embraced and nurtured, ESPECIALLY in City of Heroes.

Inclusivity and diversity have been inherent parts of this game's fundamental identity since the beginning.  Not executed to perfection, of course, but the importance of personal choice and personal identity expression through the game shows up in all these places.  Yes, even in a real-money "Pay to Win" gacha that was modified when the game became not-for-profit.

 

This is an argument in favor of power creep. "Balance doesn't matter" in slightly different words. No.

Edited November 18, 2021 by Wavicle

[Sovera]

41 minutes ago, Vanden said:

New players can't afford Amplifiers even on live. The only way they could possibly scrape together enough inf is with marketeering tactics they are absolutely not going to know.

 

New new players don't even know amplifiers exist. New players who start in a new server or do a no-inf-transfer challenge can get them at level 1 by whatever tricks more experienced players know. In my case it was picking 5 merits from a badge around Atlas.

 

But if I know new players who are making new alts and I direct them at Amplifiers? Absolutely. Lets not pretend this game was not called City of Cooldowns for a long time between misses, waiting for recharges, waiting for endurance to recover, THEN MISSING! Amplifiers remove a lot of this in the very early game before we get comfy with IOs and slots. A new player (not necessarily a new alt) is the right person who will enjoy the big boost that amplifiers bring and avoid the drab levels where no powers, no slots, no money to afford SOs is prevalent.

[aethereal]

Suggestion:  Add a character in every tutorial who calls attention to themselves, and, through dialog, offers the characters 1, 4, or 8 hours of each amplifier, gratis.

 

"Hey <character name>!  I can give you temporary power boosts to make the start of your hero/villain career easier!"

Edited November 18, 2021 by aethereal

[Wavicle]

In fact, the more I think about it, the more I think it's a very good change.

 

This change discourages you from automatically giving every new toon you make 8 hours of all 3 amps, while simultaneously making amps more attractive as an inf sink at max level.

 

Two thumbs up!

[Bopper]

4 hours ago, DougReyn said:

That Amplifier Change feels indeed very odd.

 

So as I understand it, they now don't count down while on a suppressing TF, but otherwise still do. So it's not that they are really controllable toggles right?

I think there is a free power you can get from P2W that disables all powers. I believe that will stop the counter whenever you want

[Riverdusk]

2 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

In fact, the more I think about it, the more I think it's a very good change.

 

This change discourages you from automatically giving every new toon you make 8 hours of all 3 amps, while simultaneously making amps more attractive as an inf sink at max level.

 

Two thumbs up!

 

So you like that they are "more attractive" at level 50 with this change.  That isn't power creep?

[arcane]

7 minutes ago, Riverdusk said:

 

So you like that they are "more attractive" at level 50 with this change.  That isn't power creep?

The only power creep around this issue is the fact that amplifiers exist at all, or that they exist at such chump change prices as 2.5M..

[Lazarillo]

32 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

while simultaneously making amps more attractive as an inf sink at max level.

How?  If they weren't worth sinking money into before, they won't be any more worthwhile now.

You think because people aren't spending 24,000 on their new characters, they're more likely to spend 60 million on their finished ones?

[Wavicle]

5 minutes ago, Lazarillo said:

How?  If they weren't worth sinking money into before, they won't be any more worthwhile now.

You think because people aren't spending 24,000 on their new characters, they're more likely to spend 60 million on their finished ones?

well, nominally more attractive.

 

[ForeverLaxx]

I see this argument as another "we were spoiled by the enterbase command" situation than it is an argument about actual need and "accessibility" when applied to the amplifiers. I sit here reading a deluge of people saying how low level gameplay is such a chore and so difficult that you "need" these amplifiers to even bear doing it at all while I'm literally playing new characters from level 1 to level 22 without enhancements or boosts of any kind. I really don't think I'm that exceptional of a player that I can navigate what's really a pretty simple game without enhancements or boosters during the stage of the game where enhancements tend to matter the least with regard to enemy stats. In fact, the game has gotten even easier despite my methods never changing due to the Beginner's Luck boost, the free enhancements from the P2W vendor that have small damage procs, and even the Prestige Attack "temp" Powers you can also get for free. Not to mention the buffs you can get from running DFB (which itself gives you 5 SOs every run).

 

Then again, I would always run my characters through the Hollows arcs, including Frostfire, solo just to see if I could. Outside of needing breakfrees and purples for Frostfire himself, it was never a true problem and that was when you still couldn't get a travel power until 14.

 

If you need boosters on top of that just to survive the lower levels, you're either stepping way outside your depth or are trying to power through those levels as fast as possible. If you're already trying to "skip" all that content you may as well just PL and stop pretending you're doing anything else. Then again, I only ever hear about these amplifiers being suggested to players who are looking to get powerleveled as a cost-saving measure since they'll have tons of time to use them once their PL is done. If you ask me, this isn't about "noobies losing their goodies" at all.

[Wavicle]

8 minutes ago, Lazarillo said:

How?  If they weren't worth sinking money into before, they won't be any more worthwhile now.

You think because people aren't spending 24,000 on their new characters, they're more likely to spend 60 million on their finished ones?

 

To be clear, they will explicitly be more worthwhile now at 50, because they'll be cheaper. I think people are more likely (not myself, but someone) to spend 60 mil on their 50 than 120 mil or whatever the cost is now.

[Apparition]

The only possible places I can see P2W amplifiers "needed" for leveling are in First Ward and Night Ward, especially if you're crazy enough to solo them on a Defender or a Blaster like I am.  Those two zones are pretty rough.  But, I'll just save up the extra INF for my next trip through Praetoria.

[Riverdusk]

6 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

 

To be clear, they will explicitly be more worthwhile now at 50, because they'll be cheaper. I think people are more likely (not myself, but someone) to spend 60 mil on their 50 than 120 mil or whatever the cost is now.

 

They aren't cheaper (the exact same 2.5mil at 50 now, 2.5mil at 50 with this change), but they can potentially last a lot longer since they can be basically be turned off and on at will with a "no powers" temp, thus saving the "time" for actual combat situations.  

Edited November 18, 2021 by Riverdusk

[Lazarillo]

 

8 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

To be clear, they will explicitly be more worthwhile now at 50, because they'll be cheaper. I think people are more likely (not myself, but someone) to spend 60 mil on their 50 than 120 mil or whatever the cost is now.

They're not any cheaper at 50 with this change, though?  The cost of the amplifiers is [Level]²x1000, per amplifier per hour.  Same as they are post this patch.

This is only a nerf to using them at lower levels, essentially.  It's no change at max level, where they're not really serving their purpose anyway because anyone who could afford them is built enough to render them completely meaningless.

 

If the explicit purpose is for them to be an Influence sink, then the proposed changes don't fix the current circumstances.

Ultimately, removing the option for low level characters to use them would be the same as, say, attaching a 10 million-inf entrance fee to DfB.

Edited November 18, 2021 by Lazarillo

[Wavicle]

Just now, Lazarillo said:

 

They're not any cheaper at 50 with this change, though?  The cost of the amplifiers is [Level]²x1000, per amplifier per hour.  Same as they are post this patch.

This is only a nerf to using them at lower levels, essentially.  It's no change at max level, where they're not really serving their purpose anyway because anyone who could afford them is built enough to render them completely meaningless.

 

If the explicit purpose is for them to be an Influence sink, then the proposed changes don't fix the current circumstances.

 

gotcha, thank you for the clarification/correction

 

 I’m not sure if the intention is to make them More of an inf sink or simply to discourage their use. If people keep using them then it will have increased their use as an inf sink. If people stop using them then people stop using them. So maybe it’s a dual purpose change?

[Riverdusk]

8 minutes ago, Lazarillo said:

 

They're not any cheaper at 50 with this change, though?  The cost of the amplifiers is [Level]²x1000, per amplifier per hour.  Same as they are post this patch.

This is only a nerf to using them at lower levels, essentially.  It's no change at max level, where they're not really serving their purpose anyway because anyone who could afford them is built enough to render them completely meaningless.

 

If the explicit purpose is for them to be an Influence sink, then the proposed changes don't fix the current circumstances.

 

 

Potentially they could end up less of an inf sink as they will last longer with this change.  All depends on if enough more people find them more attractive with the change at level 50 vs. the loss of influence drain from having to renew them less often.

Edited November 18, 2021 by Riverdusk

[Lazarillo]

12 minutes ago, ForeverLaxx said:

If you need boosters on top of that just to survive the lower levels, you're either stepping way outside your depth or are trying to power through those levels as fast as possible. If you're already trying to "skip" all that content you may as well just PL and stop pretending you're doing anything else.

In my experience, it's the opposite.  I don't want to move too quickly through the early levels, as it's very easy to outlevel content that I want to do with my characters from the story side of things (content that either can't be flashed back to in most cases, or is diminished if done as a flashback).  But the fun factor ends up diminished because so many things are level-gated.