Combo Mechanics Thread

[Troo]

On 2/8/2022 at 1:23 PM, nihilii said:

Combos are a big glaring neon sign there is a Right Way to play.

 

Seems accurate.

 

It seems plausible that folks don't like the existing combos because they don't mirror the way we play. Memorizing someone else's vision for the right attack chain.. bleh.. puke.

[ScarySai]

There's always a right way to play and a wrong way to play. If you're a beam/tac arrow blaster and facetank things in melee, you're doing it wrong.

 

If you're a defender and didn't slot any of your primary powers on a set like poison, dark or cold, you're doing it wrong.

 

If you're a fire armor character and skipped burn, you're doing it wrong.

 

If you're a sentinel, you're doing it wrong. (:>)

 

As for gimmicks: I don't personally mind gimmicks, but when you add a gimmick to an existing set, it has to be consistent. I actually don't mind energy's new gimmick on scrappers/stalkers, largely due to their ability to reliably get crits. I however, don't like how brutes don't get the chance to obtain two focus stacks per rotation. That objectively makes those versions better no matter how many reds the brute or tank eats. Having that extra ET per TF cycle is massive. Why would I ever use power crash on a brute?

 

Other times, the gimmick flops. The two most notable examples of this are Dual Blades, and the new Seismic blast set. Where the mechanics are so inefficient that you're better off ignoring both. Dual blades could stand to be more dynamic with how combos work, in addition to some attacks being sped up. Seismic should have more empowered abilities, or rock shards/stalag should be made into something that isn't a total meme.

 

And in some cases, the mechanic is implemented very well. Paragon did great with Gravity and Street Justice(2cp builder for non-stalkers would be nice though), the new Elec Blast rework by HC is almost flawless (buff tesla cage), and Bio is set all about gimmicks, and there's very few people complaining there. Some crying for nerfs, but if they think that'll magically bring balance to the game, ha.

 

Edited February 23, 2022 by ScarySai

[Troo]

30 minutes ago, ScarySai said:

There's always a right way to play and a wrong way to play.

 

30 minutes ago, ScarySai said:

Other times, the gimmick flops.

 

I think you've reiterated my point where the intended gimmick might not be the way some folks want to play a set.

Edited February 23, 2022 by Troo

[ScarySai]

Well I don't know what to tell you, Troo. If you don't like disintegration, either stop playing BR or deal with it. This isn't CO, powersets all have an identity.

[Xenosone]

I just play electric melee, stone melee when im feeling sounding like i deal catastrophic damage and energy melee on a tank. The rest of those other sets are too gimmicky.

 

My ranged choice is sonic because yelling at fools is amazing and things melt plus make the team melt them and radiation blast so i can nuetron bomb, teleport to my target and irradiate before the nuke hits.

 

Please devs, can i has a sonic melee set? Just simple punches with me yelling for anime effect.

Edited February 23, 2022 by Xenosone
Forgot radiation blast

[Pzn]

1 hour ago, Xenosone said:

Please devs, can i has a sonic melee set? Just simple punches with me yelling for anime effect.

I would love this.  There's already a bunch of powers in sonic manipulation for it and you'd only need a few more.

[Without_Pause]

25 minutes ago, Pzn said:

I would love this.  There's already a bunch of powers in sonic manipulation for it and you'd only need a few more.

Based on what's in the game already, it would be one of the easiest things to port. I would be down for it since there is no reason why the set can't have sub 2 sec cast times or close to it(see Kat), the damage wouldn't be leathal(see Kat and Claws for fast playing sets), and if there is an attack or two doing ranged damage, then it would at least make sense(see Claws). The damage would be more ST based and likely lower since it would also have -res. Add in some control aspect and really, it would be difficult to make it a bad set.

[InvaderStych]

21 hours ago, Without_Pause said:

The damage would be more ST based and likely lower since it would also have -res. Add in some control aspect and really, it would be difficult to make it a bad set.

 

x3.

 

Sonic Thrust, Strident Echo, and Earsplitter are already melee attacks.

 

Deafening Wave gives it a pbAoE (See Spin, Whirling Sword, etc) <please remove the tag on DW that prevents it from taking outside buffs, thanks!>

 

Slot in the usual for each melee AT (Taunt, Confront, AS/Placate) and there's not really much remaining to add

 

Might want to borrow some animations to make it more "melee-ish," probably remove the repel and reduce the KB from Thrust, maybe borrow the Hand-Clap/Foot Stomp animation and make a sort of click based Disruption Aura with a little Sound Cannon in it. 

 

Although bringing those two powers over as-is isn't a bad idea either.

[Without_Pause]

1 hour ago, InvaderStych said:

 

x3.

 

Sonic Thrust, Strident Echo, and Earsplitter are already melee attacks.

 

Deafening Wave gives it a pbAoE (See Spin, Whirling Sword, etc) <please remove the tag on DW that prevents it from taking outside buffs, thanks!>

 

Slot in the usual for each melee AT (Taunt, Confront, AS/Placate) and there's not really much remaining to add

 

Might want to borrow some animations to make it more "melee-ish," probably remove the repel and reduce the KB from Thrust, maybe borrow the Hand-Clap/Foot Stomp animation and make a sort of click based Disruption Aura with a little Sound Cannon in it. 

 

Although bringing those two powers over as-is isn't a bad idea either.

Sonic blast has a cone KB power and it would fit in with Claws having Shockwave. I think a PBAoE -res toggle might be interesting instead of a damage aura. I don't see how you proc it out or even really add sets to it, so it's benefit is contained. You could do a ST attack with a disorient as well. Finding 7 attacks + BU and Taunt would be easy.

[ForeverLaxx]

On 2/23/2022 at 12:23 AM, ScarySai said:

This isn't CO, powersets all have an identity.

Until HC decides to rework a set into a gimmick set when it wasn't one before, but I'm sure people who enjoyed the old set and just wanted number tweaks instead of circled powers don't matter.

[ScarySai]

Well, feel free to bother me when they do that. Energy's better than it ever was even if you ignore focus altogether.

[Troo]

2 hours ago, ScarySai said:

Well, feel free to bother me when they do that. Energy's better than it ever was even if you ignore focus altogether.

 

debateable.

in my opinion Energy Melee on stalkers is not "better than it ever was".

 

 

[ScarySai]

Your opinion is wrong, then. 

 

/shrug

[macskull]

8 hours ago, ForeverLaxx said:

Until HC decides to rework a set into a gimmick set when it wasn't one before, but I'm sure people who enjoyed the old set and just wanted number tweaks instead of circled powers don't matter.

I'm assuming you're talking about Energy Melee here, but even if you pretend "the gimmick" doesn't exist the set is objectively better than it was even before the infamous ET nerf. The good part here is if you were one of those "people who enjoyed the old set and just wanted number tweaks" you got your tweaks and every single power in the set is better now - again, that's completely ignoring "the gimmick."

 

More on topic: I don't mind the idea of combo mechanics (specifically build/spend-type) but lockout periods are annoying. Water Blast's is handled well enough where it isn't a big deal, but Psi Melee's is just super clunky and like @Luminara said upthread, having to watch an icon in the buff bar to get a consistent experience with Savage Melee is more than a little frustrating.

 

EDIT: I suppose I was incorrect above when I said every power in EM had been tweaked - Barrage is still total poopoodoodoo (but if you do care about Energy Focus it might be worth using in some very specific situations) and Taunt/Placate/Build Up weren't touched. The other 7 powers in the set (6 for Stalkers since AS didn't get changed either) are objectively better than they used to be.

Edited February 25, 2022 by macskull

[roleki]

Reading this thread and the Proc Doom thread makes it increasingly clear that we're never going to become one of those Star Trek planets where everyone wears the same clothes.  Good luck getting invited to the United Federation of Planets wearing all those jorts and sweatpants.  

[Luminara]

50 minutes ago, roleki said:

Reading this thread and the Proc Doom thread makes it increasingly clear that we're never going to become one of those Star Trek planets where everyone wears the same clothes.  Good luck getting invited to the United Federation of Planets wearing all those jorts and sweatpants.  

 

What makes you believe we want to be on a planet where people wear clothes?

[PeregrineFalcon]

2 hours ago, Luminara said:

What makes you believe we want to be on a planet where people wear clothes?

Given what most of you meat-bags look like clothed, I certainly do not want to see you without clothes.

[Ukase]

On 2/8/2022 at 1:58 PM, Naraka said:

I feel the divide here is the misconception that the combos highlighted by the system is outlining the meta-game goal of max performance. You can use whatever skills you calculate to be maximum but the combo system is meant to give bonus effects, not max performance.

I'm bashing/zapping/slashing the npc. The only "bonus effect" I'm remotely concerned with is dps. I do not care about a surplus of endurance. I have proper slotting to address that. Will it boost recharge if I use it? Great. Will it boost accuracy if I use it? Good, but not required. I've already slotted for that. I do not see what good any bonus effect is if it doesn't help me win/defeat/kill vs the NPC sooner. 

What is the bonus effect? I've leveled a Brute & a Scrapper, both Savage/Shield to 50+3, t-4. I still am uncertain what clear benefit Frenzy was supposed to give. End reduction? It really made no difference to me. More damage? Um...no. Maybe something else. I say that with perception bias, of course. It just seemed worthless. Still, the brute was much, much better until level 50. And then, still better, just not much, much better. (For me) 

[Naraka]

9 minutes ago, Ukase said:

I'm bashing/zapping/slashing the npc. The only "bonus effect" I'm remotely concerned with is dps. I do not care about a surplus of endurance. I have proper slotting to address that. Will it boost recharge if I use it? Great. Will it boost accuracy if I use it? Good, but not required. I've already slotted for that. I do not see what good any bonus effect is if it doesn't help me win/defeat/kill vs the NPC sooner. 

What is the bonus effect? I've leveled a Brute & a Scrapper, both Savage/Shield to 50+3, t-4. I still am uncertain what clear benefit Frenzy was supposed to give. End reduction? It really made no difference to me. More damage? Um...no. Maybe something else. I say that with perception bias, of course. It just seemed worthless. Still, the brute was much, much better until level 50. And then, still better, just not much, much better. (For me) 

 

I think you're conflating your personal goals with everyone else's.

 

Unfortunately, we don't all have/use Ukase's build to determine what we should all care about.  If DB's combo gives Weaken, you can ignore it but that doesn't suddenly mean it doesn't exist thus should be masked by some obscure knowledge in the game.  No, highlight the damned combo so a newb can see *this* is the power that grants the extra bonus Weaken effects lol

[Ukase]

18 hours ago, Naraka said:

 

I think you're conflating your personal goals with everyone else's.

 

Unfortunately, we don't all have/use Ukase's build to determine what we should all care about.  If DB's combo gives Weaken, you can ignore it but that doesn't suddenly mean it doesn't exist thus should be masked by some obscure knowledge in the game.  No, highlight the damned combo so a newb can see *this* is the power that grants the extra bonus Weaken effects lol

The problem here is what you think with regards to me is not accurate in this context. 
I don't have any personal goals in this game. My personal goals are about my IRA, my granddaughter's 529 fund, and my 2k time on the Concept 2 rower. No personal goals in this game at all. 

And, I don't think it's unreasonable to assume there's a population of folks that see things the way I do when it comes to combo attacks. If the benefit isn't clear, then the combo system for that powerset needs some clarification. And if the benefit isn't a clear advantage, then what's the point of it? 

[Naraka]

1 hour ago, Ukase said:

The problem here is what you think with regards to me is not accurate in this context. 
I don't have any personal goals in this game. My personal goals are about my IRA, my granddaughter's 529 fund, and my 2k time on the Concept 2 rower. No personal goals in this game at all. 

And, I don't think it's unreasonable to assume there's a population of folks that see things the way I do when it comes to combo attacks. If the benefit isn't clear, then the combo system for that powerset needs some clarification. And if the benefit isn't a clear advantage, then what's the point of it? 

 

...goals in the context of the game.

 

...I swear, people want clarification for everything...

[Troo]

On 2/24/2022 at 7:01 PM, macskull said:

even if you pretend "the gimmick" doesn't exist the set is objectively better than it was even before the infamous ET nerf.

 

This isn't true either. Man, folks just make shit up sometimes.

[Bopper]

On 2/24/2022 at 4:59 PM, Troo said:

debateable.

in my opinion Energy Melee on stalkers is not "better than it ever was".

 

Back when Stalkers had fast Energy Melee (before July 9th, 2008), they did not have the following:

• Faster Total Focus (was 3.3s cast time, now it's 2.53s. Issue 27)
• Faster Bone Smasher (was 1.5s cast time, now it's 1.27s. Issue 27)
• Stronger Energy Punch (was 1.0 scale on 4s cooldown, now it's 1.16 scale on 5s cooldown. Issue 27)
• Damage Crit on Energy Transfer (was 0 scale, not it's 1.2768 scale. Issue 27)
• Faster Cooldown on Energy Transfer (was 20s and 18.52 endurance cost, now 10s and 0 endurance cost)
• Lower HP caps (was 1606, now 2088. Issue 22)
• No Quick Epic Snipes (Stalkers had access to Snipes, but not ones you can use in a rotation in combat).
• No AoE (Power Crash is one of the best primary Stalker AoEs in the game).
• Non-Hidden Assassin's Strike (Issue 22) and no Assassin's Focus mechanic (you relied on held/slept targets). So a chain like this couldn't happen back in i12:
  • BU > TF(hide) > ET(fast) > AS(fast) > Snipe/BS > ET(fast) > BS/EP > AS(fast)  (using the chain without the snipe, this is 2.0933 DPA if gapless)
  • TF(no crit) > ET(fast) > AS(fast) > Snipe/BS > ET(slow) > AS(fast)
• I would assume the rotation that would be used was the one you provided me over a year ago
  • BU > ET(fast) > BS > TF > BS > EP > ET (1.6472 DPA, if gapless)

The new chain is 27.1% stronger than the i12 chain you provided me as an example last year. Even with less recharge, I could stretch that out with extra filler attacks and keep the DPA around 1.9+, which is still 15% stronger (before factoring in crits).

 

6 hours ago, Troo said:

> even if you pretend "the gimmick" doesn't exist the set is objectively better than it was even before the infamous ET nerf.

 

This isn't true either. Man, folks just make shit up sometimes.

 

I didn't analyze Stalkers in 2020, but other AT versions also showed to have better performance with the new versus the old. Even your response to my analysis stated the new version shows better attack chain performance. 

https://forums.homecomingservers.com/topic/23365-focused-feedback-energy-melee-revamp/?do=findComment&comment=294665

[Bill Z Bubba]

Random early morning ramblings time.

 

Got the new sr/db tank to 50 and all IOed up and have run into something that makes me think of this thread. Her current chain is BF, SS, NS, AS, TE. The last three are the Weaken combo and if I drop TE when going single target, it grants the Empower combo.

 

Far as I can tell, Weaken does a 7% tohit and defense debuff. Fighting +4s, that's going to be reduced further and made even less meaningful.

Empower is +10% damage and 3.3% tohit.

 

This means that if I'm bouncing between the two, skipping TE every other chain, I can keep both buffs up and happy but I am SERIOUSLY kneecapping my damage output for what amounts to nothing.

 

The other choice is to leave NS with a single basic Acc enhancements and delete it from the tray. I lose both combos, 10% damage buff and we'll call it around 7% total tohit buff equivalent but my attack chains become BF, SS, AS, repeat for ST and BF, SS, TE, repeat for AoE. Vastly superior damage output with the downside that it takes a ton of recharge to get there and costs a ton of end to keep running.

 

So the plus side of the combo system in this example is that I don't have to lean on other sources of tohit/acc *as much* if I go with the combos and don't have to chase the recharge/end mgmt dragon nearly as much versus shooting for the meanest/leanest/nastiest attack chains. But it sure was nice seeing all those WEAKENED messages pop up when buried in the horde.

 

It almost feels like the combos, at least with DB and the way I've chosen to play it, are feeding that gratification button in my head but are doing so while lying to me about their actual usefulness. I don't much care for that.

 

Back to chasin the dragon for me then.

 

Edit: Oh, right... I'm only able to get close to that ST chain on my db/nrg scrapper due to the +recharge from Entropic Aura. No way in hell am I pulling that off on the sr/db tank. Guess it'll have to be BF-AS-SS-AS ... bah. ugh. Even that chain needs 313% total recharge in AS and also means no triple stacked BF for SS. Oddly, 313% is the exact value needed in followup for FU-Focus-Slash. Hmmm. MORE bizarre... AoE chain of BF-SS-TE needs exactly 313% as well in TE.

Edited February 28, 2022 by Bill Z Bubba

[Black Zot]

38 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

Far as I can tell, Weaken does a 7% tohit and defense debuff. Fighting +4s, that's going to be reduced further and made even less meaningful.

Empower is +10% damage and 3.3% tohit.

 

 

Aaaaand this right here is why DB is trash tier even when you ignore everyone and their dog having lethal resist.  As convoluted as the combo system is, you'd expect some actual reward for pulling it off.  Instead you get a little text popup telling you "Congratulations, you pushed your buttons in an order the powers themselves don't bother explaining properly!  And your reward for that is JACK SHIT!"

 

The fact that you have to actively go digging for what effect that combo actually had is proof positive that the whole set, in its present state, is a waste of time and code.  If you're expected to press 3+ buttons in a specific sequence to get a bonus effect, that bonus better have some "wham" to it.