Modernizing Regeneration

[Some Random User]

1 hour ago, Zepp said:

Instant Healing, which through incarnates and IOs can be up only about two thirds of the time allows your big OhShtick I'm in the middle of it and I need survivability for another minute and a half or I'm toast. While MoG gives you that big OhShtick I'm about to die unless I disengage button. By spreading out that bonus at a lower degree and removing one click you may lose the ability to get to nearly 2k regen, but have a reliable 1.5k regen...

This Powerset was reworked shortly after launch (and for good reason, there were major balance problems). Right after that, the way things worked was someone'd use [Haste] and perma [Instant Healing], which was possible using nothing more than S.O. Enhancements. Both Haste and I.H. (again) were reworked later.

 

Many of the "armor" Powersets have an [Overload]-like button, often as a T9 skippable. I've never understood why I.H. couldn't be a crashless version of that skippable T9 other Powersets get. Basically, make M.o.G. without a downside the "reason to take the Powerset," This could rekindle interest without much else being touched. Powersets used to be balanced within themselves, not against other Powersets, so why wouldn't this work? Isn't that exactly what we'd want?

Edited July 26, 2019 by Some Random User
mixed up names

[Vanden]

10 minutes ago, Some Random User said:

This Powerset was reworked shortly after launch (and for good reason, there were major balance problems). Right after that, the way things worked was someone'd use [Haste] and perma [Instant Healing], which was possible using nothing more than S.O. Enhancements. Both Haste and I.H. (again) were reworked later.

 

All of the "armor" Powersets have a [Moment of Glory]-like button, often as a T9 skippable. I've never understood why I.H. couldn't be a crashless version of that skippable T9 other Powersets get, like M.o.G. without a downside. This "reason to take the Powerset" could rekindle interest without much else being touched. Powersets used to be balanced within themselves, not against other Powersets, so why wouldn't this work? Isn't that exactly what we'd want?

Are you talking about MoG? Instant Healing was a toggle until issue 5, but I think perma-MoG was a thing early on.

[Some Random User]

54 minutes ago, Vanden said:

Are you talking about MoG? Instant Healing was a toggle until issue 5, but I think perma-MoG was a thing early on.

No. The post has been edited.

 

Get your original printed instruction manual out. The Powerset looks nothing like I4 Regeneration.

[archgemini24]

From what I have experienced playing Regen versus other sets (Shield, Fire, WP, and PB's Luminous Aura. Yes, I'll get to that.), I agree that Regen has come to lag a bit since its IH-toggle heyday. Its lack of mitigation diversity means it does not have as many I/O options as other sets, and its dependence on clicks eats into a character's offensive output to such a degree that it should provide better mitigation in return for that loss.

 

My aim would be to leave the nature of the set alone, so that Regen is more like "Self-Empathy" versus the "classic" Regen (which is now WP). The current passives (Fast Healing, Quick Recovery, and Resilience) could receive debuff resistance. Which ones in which powers are debatable, but I was thinking give each passive a bit of all of them, meaning you have to take all 3 to have the full scope of debuff resistances.

 

Sentinel Revive would just be a straight upgrade, and I don't know why every other Regen didn't get it.

 

I am of several minds on Instant Healing, so let me know what you think of these options I have seen scattered around. Most of these would make IH the capstone of the set, IMO, so it could also be moved to 38:

- A toggle version of "Instantly healing Y percentage of damage on impact (where Y is slottable to heal more per hit)"... this one has already been mentioned to much acclaim

- A click version of the above, where recharge is either unenhanceable in return for greater value (better Y), or a lesser base heal and the recharge on the power makes it capable of being made permanent. As a precedent, Peacebringers can get Perma-Lightform, on top of all the other heals and buffs that come with Luminous Aura. Lightform (which has endurance recovery to help match QR), Essence Boost (Dull Pain), and Restore Essence (Reconstruction) brings PBs within a few points of mez protection of Regen if you consider capped resistance close to parity with the regeneration part of Regen. Light Form is 90/300. Let's go with that. Still needs some work to make perma, but doable: 233% additional recharge needed.

- A click Heal with an instant or short recharge, but a very heavy endurance cost and/or Recovery Debuff (like an Overclock).

- Return of Toggle IH with adjusted values. Probably down, but as a t9 could it be potentially left alone.

 

I would like to see MoG get better uptime via reduced recharge rather than increased duration and moved up in the selection to make room for a better IH at 38. I like the Defensive Build-up style of "new" MoG, but it is not available often enough to warrant the pick outside of a LotG mule unless you are playing with some hyper recharge build that is trying to shuffle between MoG, Shadow Meld, and Barrier Destiny perpetually.

[Some Random User]

What is with Willpower and Regeneration? I've never understood moving a whole Powerset to another name.

[merrypessimist]

Willpower is /regen that hadn't been dicked around with by the Live powers team for six years.

[Solarverse]

My God, such great ideas on this thread way back in June of 2019, and the set is still garbage and only best in PvP/Theme. Practical use is just subpar at very best, with only the absolute best builds. This set should not depend on an absolute best build to perform well. I play Regeneration, but let's make no mistake about it, it has absolutely nothing to do with the set being good, it has everything to do with nostalgia and theme. Now, here we are in 2023, almost 2024, and Regen is the same crap that it was on Live. Why the set needed to go from one of the best to one of the worst is beyond me...and why it still remains the red headed stepchild for almost 15 years later is even further beyond me. Now that a new Dev team is in control of this game, I am shocked they did not place some type of a priority on fixing this utterly useless set.

 

The set was nerfed in 2004...it has sucked ever since then. Isn't it about time that changes?

[Spaghetti Betty]

 

So many necros! Help!

Edited September 3, 2023 by Spaghetti Betty

[Solarverse]

@Greycat

 

Are you really going to disagree? So tell me, if Regen is just so damn perfect, why do so many people feel like it's just such a trashy set? Back in 2019, it seems everyone agreed it needed help, now suddenly it's fine? Come on, my man...

[Solarverse]

1 hour ago, Spaghetti Betty said:

 

So many necros! Help!

 

It was relevant.

[Rudra]

46 minutes ago, Solarverse said:

@Greycat

 

Are you really going to disagree? So tell me, if Regen is just so damn perfect, why do so many people feel like it's just such a trashy set? Back in 2019, it seems everyone agreed it needed help, now suddenly it's fine? Come on, my man...

I get the impression it is more a response to having necro'ed the thread.

[Solarverse]

51 minutes ago, Rudra said:

I get the impression it is more a response to having necro'ed the thread.

 

It was relevant, and if my post didn't show that, then I don't know what to tell the guy. The thread had to be necroed to show cause. Also, I don't give a damn about necroed this or that. You necro a thread people get their panties in a bunch, if you post a new thread people get their panties in a bunch because there are already existing topics on it, you can't win and I am not here to make people happy, I am here to discuss a topic that is almost as old as this game is. If that is really what that was all about, he can get over himself.

 

Not to mention, the whole "don't necro threads" is just dumb anyway. There is no reason what-so-ever to get upset about that. It is some unwritten rule that only forum elites try and enforce. The earliest iteration of this is when people wanted a particular subject to go away because they didn't want it being talked about, hence forth necroing topics suddenly became "bad" yet nobody can give a viable reason why it is considered bad.

 

Truth be told, I did a google search on the topic and this thread came up. So since my issue with Regen is relevant to how long people have been asking for a fix to it, it became relevant to post the topic. There is absolute nothing wrong with posting on an old thread...that whole, "don't necro threads" rule is just completely made up and there is no merit to it what-so-ever other than to try and control people...and I have never been one that you can control.

 

 

Edited September 3, 2023 by Solarverse
for clarity

[TheZag]

3 hours ago, Solarverse said:

You necro a thread people get their panties in a bunch, if you post a new thread people get their panties in a bunch because there are already existing topics on it, you can't win

 

This is so true.  You get a bunch of necro memes if you post on an old topic and a bunch of links to the old topics and 'here we go again' if you make a new one.

 

I played regen back before its nerfs.  I had to 6 slot fast recovery,  6 slot stamina and use 2 slots for endurance reduction in instant healing to leave that toggle on all the time.  It was fun,  i felt super even though i had 14 slots devoted to keeping 1 power working.  Then regen got nerfed,  understandibly so,  because the devs didnt think players would be able to keep the instant healing toggle on all the time.  But then they nerfed it again,  and then again.  Finally,  instant healing was changed to a click ability.  My character didnt play the same anymore and went from being super to being a sidekick.  At the time i only had 2 or 3 level 50 characters and i was so unhappy with the character that i deleted it.

 

I think regen doesnt get changed because it would probably require changing too many abilities into something else that requires players to respec or breaks how they play the set.  I doubt instant healing would become a toggle again since it would break pvp for the 15 people that actually do that.  Maybe have different pvp and pve effects since that is already possible.

 

I also feel regen doesnt get fixed because it did get fixed.  Willpower is what regen should have been.  Now when i want a regen character,  i choose willpower.  Looking at the differences between the 2 sets,  its clear that they couldnt just change regen into willpower without breaking every regen character - several abilities dont use the same enhancements.  So they made a new set and swept regen under the rug.

 

[BrandX]

I feel WP doesn't feel like Regen, though they both sort of do the same thing.  While WP is a regen set, I'm not 100% on liking that my regen concept needs to have enemies around them to regen.

 

I know that aspect would just be the meta and I can work around it, but still, I like Regen for not needing enemies around them.

Also, playing both, I feel both could use some tweaks (with WP maybe needing the less tweaks).

[Solarverse]

53 minutes ago, TheZag said:

 

This is so true.  You get a bunch of necro memes if you post on an old topic and a bunch of links to the old topics and 'here we go again' if you make a new one.

 

I played regen back before its nerfs.  I had to 6 slot fast recovery,  6 slot stamina and use 2 slots for endurance reduction in instant healing to leave that toggle on all the time.  It was fun,  i felt super even though i had 14 slots devoted to keeping 1 power working.  Then regen got nerfed,  understandibly so,  because the devs didnt think players would be able to keep the instant healing toggle on all the time.  But then they nerfed it again,  and then again.  Finally,  instant healing was changed to a click ability.  My character didnt play the same anymore and went from being super to being a sidekick.  At the time i only had 2 or 3 level 50 characters and i was so unhappy with the character that i deleted it.

 

I think regen doesnt get changed because it would probably require changing too many abilities into something else that requires players to respec or breaks how they play the set.  I doubt instant healing would become a toggle again since it would break pvp for the 15 people that actually do that.  Maybe have different pvp and pve effects since that is already possible.

 

I also feel regen doesnt get fixed because it did get fixed.  Willpower is what regen should have been.  Now when i want a regen character,  i choose willpower.  Looking at the differences between the 2 sets,  its clear that they couldnt just change regen into willpower without breaking every regen character - several abilities dont use the same enhancements.  So they made a new set and swept regen under the rug.

 

 

I feel like if Regen were to be reverted to its original state, it still wouldn't stack up to other sets these days against some of the mobs we see in higher level stuff. Some of the people who were posting on this thread back in 2019 had some decent ideas, turning Quick Recovery in to a Fast Healing/Quick Recovery hybrid while giving it a 25% unenhanceable boost, then making Fast Healing act more like a Heal+Absorb Shield. There were a lot of good ideas thrown around in here.

As far as Willpower being Regen...I simply will never accept that, even if I grow old and die or have a heart attack and die today, I will go to my grave never accepting that.  😄

[Troo]

8 hours ago, Solarverse said:

I am shocked they did not place some type of a priority on fixing this utterly useless set.

 

lol, necro thread away, there's no rule against it. There's no rule about poking fun at it either. 🙂

 

Agreement on what a "fix" is verses breaking it or losing what the set is.. has been elusive.

 

It is a popular set as is.

While the why is debatable the fact remains.

 

7 hours ago, Solarverse said:

So tell me, if Regen is just so damn perfect,

 

For me, it's not that it is perfect. It is that it is not same-same as many of the other sets.

 

It also works fairly well.

 

Folks that like Regeneration have offered simple suggestions (one or two tweaks) that could elevate it's performance or qol without diametrically destroying what is.

This has been shouted down by numerous proposals which run the gamut of re-envisioning, revamping and recreating in a way that often tosses out the spirit of what it is.

Too many proposals ignore the 1-49 part of the game. One could argue that Regeneration is very competitive with non-capped defense.

 

@Solarverse I just wanted to chime in for other readers. You likely have seen plenty of my replies on this topic.

 

 

Edited September 3, 2023 by Troo

[SwitchFade]

Actually, resurrecting an old thread is appropriate, but memes are always welcome, because funny.

 

And....nerf Regen.

[Captain Fabulous]

Regen already excels in earning you all the debt badges, so it's fine just as it is.

/powercreep

[Solarverse]

2 hours ago, Troo said:

 

lol, necro thread away, there's no rule against it. There's no rule about poking fun at it either. 🙂

 

Oh, I love the memes that poke fun at necro'd threads, I myself have made a few on these very boards. However, they are tongue in cheek, made to get a laugh memes. What I do not do is come in to a thread like some hall monitor and thumb it down without explanation what-so-ever. And to be honest, I always thought Bill was better than that.

 

2 hours ago, Troo said:

Agreement on what a "fix" is verses breaking it or losing what the set is.. has been elusive.

 

 

That's the thing, the Devs have never sought our permission before implementing something, if they had, Sonic's Cone power would not have a repel function right now...I think sometimes the Devs are just trying to get the players in to serious arguments when they implement shit like that. But, what is done is done, it's their game, they can do whatever they like and I accept that. So if I can accept that, then others should also be able to accept whatever changes the Devs deem fit for Regen. We as players have thrown out a lot of great ideas over the years, it's up to the Dev team to decide which ones, if any, they wish to implement. However, the set as it stands now...well, as @Captain Fabulous has stated, it's a fantastic set for Debt Badges and that in itself is overpowered. /nerfregen.  😄

 

 

Edited September 3, 2023 by Solarverse
clarification

[Marbing]

Regen needs love.
 

Scaling regen as hp gets lower.

 

Combine recovery/fast healing.

 

Should have stupid high -regen resistance (just like SR does for -defense).

 

Make resilience have a very high resistance boost that gets lower sharply as your health declines. To help against being one shot. MoG kind of already helps with this but it would be a cool/unique function. 
 

Stuff like that. These are just a few ideas I have had take them or leave them. It can fixed, just needs a retool. I am not suggesting it needs all the above changes, just a few things I thought would be cool to see changed.

 

 

[Zect]

Proposing correct solutions to problems requires an accurate identification and statement of the problem in the first place. Otherwise, you're just changing things for the sake of change at best; and making a bad solution worse at worst. Barely any posts in this thread have attempted to achieve this, with most just tossing out wishful thinking "Christmas lists" of buffs with no supporting rationale or data given.

 

Here's a list of real problems that regen in its current form suffers, instead of vague whines about it being "not strong enough" (how exactly?).

 

1. Lack of slow resist (and possibly -end/-recovery resist too)

 

Every set without a substantial amount of def (no, mog doesn't count - that's the short duration anti-alpha tool) that is dependent on click heals needs this; otherwise, unlike +def sets whose mitigation double-dips as debuff resistance, slows inflict a double whammy of lost offensive and defensive power. Elec has this; fire has this; rad has this; even bio has this; so regen must have this. 20-30% in QR should do the trick.

 

2. Lack of offensive (not defensive) buff.

 

Because regen spends animation time healing, it effectively has a built in dps loss and needs an offensive buff to compensate. Once upon a time I suspect quick recovery may have been intended to serve this purpose, but years of power creep has led to other sets getting progressively more powerful endo management tools.

 

I already wrote this in the previous regen whineposting thread, but while the lazy solution would be to slap a rech buff on QR or something, I personally hope for something more unique and less meta-friendly. Maybe a mini-build up upon using reconstruction?

 

3. Poor availability of clicks relative to encounter frequency

 

Consider the following hypothetical click powers:

• 30s duration, 90s cooldown
• 300s duration, 900s cooldown

Are they equal? Superficially, they might be, since they have the same uptime ratio (about 33%). However, in practice, the first is actually going to be a great deal stronger than the second. This is because encounters in coh typically last some 30-60 seconds including travel time to the next spawn. With the first power, assuming ED-capped rech, you get to use it nearly every spawn or so. But with the second power, you get to enjoy it for 5 minutes and then there's 10 minutes where you're buck naked. It's extremely feast-or-famine.

 

This is a subtle but serious issue with regen, independent from the uptime ratio of the powers (what % of time they are active). I think it stems from the fact that regen originates from a time when the game was much slower and encounter frequency lower. Paragon, and almost certainly Homecoming team, are aware of this because you can see it in the design of the newer sets. Consider Bio:

• Ablative carapace: 90s rech
• DNA siphon: 90s rech
• Parasitic aura: 45s duration, 270s rech

Observe how, even with just SO levels of recharge, you can use ablative (the primary EHP booster) and DNA siphon (the primary sustain heal) nearly every spawn, or alternate them that one is available per spawn, at 45s rech. Parasitic, the more powerful T9, would be available every (edit:) two minutes and change - perhaps saved up for a more difficult encounter where necessary.

 

Now compare regen:

• Reconstruction: 60s
• Instant healing: 90s duration, 650s (!!) rech
• Mog: 15s duration, 240s (!!!) rech

This means that IH and mog are available, at SO level, at best once every five and two minutes respectively, resulting in long periods during which the set has less recourse to incoming damage. (I find the poor availability of mog in particular very egregious because it seems clearly designed as an anti-alpha tool.) This also makes regen feel less active and less interesting to play.

 

And the reason their cooldowns are so ridiculously long might, ironically, be because the powers are too strong when active. Mog really doesn't need to give 70% res or whatever it is unenhanced on top i-capped defense. And IH would still be plenty strong at 300% to 500% ish regen. The solution here is to massively weaken both IH and mog, but substantially increase the frequency at which they are available, and possibly also tweak their uptime ratio slightly. My recommendation is that an SO regen should be able to enter every encounter with 2 major clicks (excluding DP), but with these powers significantly weakened from their existing form.

 

4. What I like to call the "scaling heals problem"

 

If you look at all sets with strong healing, they typically scale with # of enemies hit. Dark regen, RTTC, rad therapy, DNA siphon, parasitic etc. all work this way. And while it has never been stated in a design document or something, I hypothesize the reason is because Paragon (and perhaps Homecoming team - though I haven't seen enough of their work to be certain) consider that the amount of healing necessary to withstand full-team spawns would be overpowered for single-target fights. Otherwise, the amount of DPS a single AV would have to do to threaten a regen would in turn overwhelm other sets without click sustain.

 

So what we need is for some of regen's tools reworked such that they scale with the number of foes engaged. They should be substantially weaker than they currently are against a single enemy, but substantially stronger against x8 spawns. This would effectively allow regen to "scale up" its healing power when encountering large spawns, without fear of it being overpowered for single or small encounters.

 

---

 

And while you're digesting my incredibly well-reasoned post that fixes every issue with regen without causing power creep, here are three commonly proposed changes that are terrible ideas and should not be implemented:

 

Adding 95% -regen resist - Usually when people suggest -regen resist, they what they really mean is SR-level -regen resist, 95% or better. That shouldn't happen unless you want regen to be as completely dependent on regeneration to the degree that SR is almost wholly dependent upon def (which would be terrible for different reasons).

 

Adding def/res - go play Bio if that's what you want. Or if you can only play half a toon, play invuln. Regen must retain its identity as a set relying on click heals as opposed to passive mitigation, in order to add variety to the oppressive, unfun, stale, yawn inducing and boring mitigation/softcap/hardcap meta. No def/res outside of the small amount you get from resilience, and mog - and I would be delighted if they changed the latter so it gives something other than mits, too.

 

Adding absorb - this is less bad than the others, but if regen gets easy access to large amounts of absorb (think particle shield) then it may need to lose some strength from dull pain. Otherwise, regen's ehp may end up being too high. Note how rad/dark/etc. have no +maxhp at all and bio only has a moderate amount of +maxhp.

 

I think people often underestimate the difficulty of balancing healing (as an umbrella term for regen, absorb, and actual heal damage). Healing is very easily overpowered if you allow it to get out of hand (as old Regen was at some point). It is damtype agnostic, tohit agnostic, and scales incredibly strongly with all the passive mitigation flying around in the IO system right now.

Edited September 3, 2023 by Zect

[Captain Fabulous]

21 minutes ago, Zect said:

Proposing correct solutions to problems requires an accurate identification and statement of the problem in the first place. Otherwise, you're just changing things for the sake of change at best; and making a bad solution worse at worst. Barely any posts in this thread have attempted to achieve this, with most just tossing out wishful thinking "Christmas lists" of buffs with no supporting rationale or data given.

 

Here's a list of real problems that regen in its current form suffers, instead of vague whines about it being "not strong enough" (how exactly?).

 

1. Lack of slow resist (and possibly -end/-recovery resist too)

 

Every set without a substantial amount of def (no, mog doesn't count - that's the short duration anti-alpha tool) that is dependent on click heals needs this; otherwise, unlike +def sets whose mitigation double-dips as debuff resistance, slows inflict a double whammy of lost offensive and defensive power. Elec has this; fire has this; rad has this; even bio has this; so regen must have this. 20-30% in QR should do the trick.

 

2. Lack of offensive (not defensive) buff.

 

Because regen spends animation time healing, it effectively has a built in dps loss and needs an offensive buff to compensate. Once upon a time I suspect quick recovery may have been intended to serve this purpose, but years of power creep has led to other sets getting progressively more powerful endo management tools.

 

I already wrote this in the previous regen whineposting thread, but while the lazy solution would be to slap a rech buff on QR or something, I personally hope for something more unique and less meta-friendly. Maybe a mini-build up upon using reconstruction?

 

3. Poor availability of clicks relative to encounter frequency

 

Consider the following hypothetical click powers:

• 30s duration, 90s cooldown
• 300s duration, 900s cooldown

Are they equal? Superficially, they might be, since they have the same uptime ratio (about 33%). However, in practice, the first is actually going to be a great deal stronger than the second. This is because encounters in coh typically last some 30-60 seconds including travel time to the next spawn. With the first power, assuming ED-capped rech, you get to use it nearly every spawn or so. But with the second power, you get to enjoy it for 5 minutes and then there's 10 minutes where you're buck naked. It's extremely feast-or-famine.

 

This is a subtle but serious issue with regen, independent from the uptime ratio of the powers (what % of time they are active). I think it stems from the fact that regen originates from a time when the game was much slower and encounter frequency lower. Paragon, and almost certainly Homecoming team, are aware of this because you can see it in the design of the newer sets. Consider Bio:

• Ablative carapace: 90s rech
• DNA siphon: 90s rech
• Parasitic aura: 45s duration, 270s rech

Observe how, even with just SO levels of recharge, you can use ablative (the primary EHP booster) and DNA siphon (the primary sustain heal) nearly every spawn, or alternate them that one is available per spawn, at 45s rech. Parasitic, the more powerful T9, would be available every minute and a half - perhaps saved up for a more difficult encounter where necessary.

 

Now compare regen:

• Reconstruction: 60s
• Instant healing: 90s duration, 650s (!!) rech
• Mog: 15s duration, 240s (!!!) rech

This means that IH and mog are available, at SO level, at best once every five and two minutes respectively, resulting in long periods during which the set has less recourse to incoming damage. (I find the poor availability of mog in particular very egregious because it seems clearly designed as an anti-alpha tool.) This also makes regen feel less active and less interesting to play.

 

And the reason their cooldowns are so ridiculously long might, ironically, be because the powers are too strong when active. Mog really doesn't need to give 70% res or whatever it is unenhanced on top i-capped defense. And IH would still be plenty strong at 300% to 500% ish regen. The solution here is to massively weaken both IH and mog, but substantially increase the frequency at which they are available, and possibly also tweak their uptime ratio slightly. My recommendation is that an SO regen should be able to enter every encounter with 2 major clicks (excluding DP), but with these powers significantly weakened from their existing form.

 

4. What I like to call the "scaling heals problem"

 

If you look at all sets with strong healing, they typically scale with # of enemies hit. Dark regen, RTTC, rad therapy, DNA siphon, parasitic etc. all work this way. And while it has never been stated in a design document or something, I hypothesize the reason is because Paragon (and perhaps Homecoming team - though I haven't seen enough of their work to be certain) consider that the amount of healing necessary to withstand full-team spawns would be overpowered for single-target fights. Otherwise, the amount of DPS a single AV would have to do to threaten a regen would in turn overwhelm other sets without click sustain.

 

So what we need is for some of regen's tools reworked such that they scale with the number of foes engaged. They should be substantially weaker than they currently are against a single enemy, but substantially stronger against x8 spawns. This would effectively allow regen to "scale up" its healing power when encountering large spawns, without fear of it being overpowered for single or small encounters.

 

---

 

And while you're digesting my incredibly well-reasoned post that fixes every issue with regen without causing power creep, here are three commonly proposed changes that are terrible ideas and should not be implemented:

 

Adding 95% -regen resist - Usually when people suggest -regen resist, they what they really mean is SR-level -regen resist, 95% or better. That shouldn't happen unless you want regen to be as completely dependent on regeneration to the degree that SR is almost wholly dependent upon def (which would be terrible for different reasons).

 

Adding def/res - go play Bio if that's what you want. Or if you can only play half a toon, play invuln. Regen must retain its identity as a set relying on click heals as opposed to passive mitigation, in order to add variety to the oppressive, unfun, stale, yawn inducing and boring mitigation/softcap/hardcap meta. No def/res outside of the small amount you get from resilience, and mog - and I would be delighted if they changed the latter so it gives something other than mits, too.

 

Adding absorb - this is less bad than the others, but if regen gets easy access to large amounts of absorb (think particle shield) then it may need to lose some strength from dull pain. Otherwise, regen's ehp may end up being too high. Note how rad/dark/etc. have no +maxhp at all and bio only has a moderate amount of +maxhp.

 

I think people often underestimate the difficulty of balancing healing (as an umbrella term for regen, absorb, and actual heal damage). Healing is very easily overpowered if you allow it to get out of hand (as old Regen was at some point). It is damtype agnostic, tohit agnostic, and scales incredibly strongly with all the passive mitigation flying around in the IO system right now.

/powercreep

[MoisesG]

We all agree that Regen needs to be buffed, just so we can nerf it again. Yup yup.

[Solarverse]

2 hours ago, Zect said:

Proposing correct solutions to problems requires an accurate identification and statement of the problem in the first place. Otherwise, you're just changing things for the sake of change at best; and making a bad solution worse at worst. Barely any posts in this thread have attempted to achieve this, with most just tossing out wishful thinking "Christmas lists" of buffs with no supporting rationale or data given.

 

Here's a list of real problems that regen in its current form suffers, instead of vague whines about it being "not strong enough" (how exactly?).

 

Where on Earth have you been? This set has been picked apart molecule by molecule over the years. I think a hell of a lot more has been said than just "not strong enough" over the years too. You come in here like a bull in a china shop thumbing down everything, not even having a single clue that this topic has been discussed to hell and back, then tell us that we are being vague? Here, here's a thumb down right back at ya. The set has been debated to death and it's time for action to be made with the set, not time for more debates.

 

2 hours ago, Zect said:

1. Lack of slow resist (and possibly -end/-recovery resist too)

 

Every set without a substantial amount of def (no, mog doesn't count - that's the short duration anti-alpha tool) that is dependent on click heals needs this; otherwise, unlike +def sets whose mitigation double-dips as debuff resistance, slows inflict a double whammy of lost offensive and defensive power. Elec has this; fire has this; rad has this; even bio has this; so regen must have this. 20-30% in QR should do the trick.

 

Agreed. One thing that ticks me off is that Regen was the first set that gave you +Recovery. Yet I have to tuck tail and run every time a Super Stunner rezes....while watching other newer sets not even be phased by the -Endurance of Super Stunner Rez. Recovery most certainly needs a high level of -Recovery and -Endurance Drain Resistance.

 

2 hours ago, Zect said:

2. Lack of offensive (not defensive) buff.

 

Because regen spends animation time healing, it effectively has a built in dps loss and needs an offensive buff to compensate. Once upon a time I suspect quick recovery may have been intended to serve this purpose, but years of power creep has led to other sets getting progressively more powerful endo management tools.

 

I will say, you are correct, the animation times for the Heals often end up with me dead because I clicked, and then by the time the animation actually hit and the heal applied, it was too late. This happens when there is zero mitigation.

 

2 hours ago, Zect said:

I already wrote this in the previous regen whineposting thread, but while the lazy solution would be to slap a rech buff on QR or something, I personally hope for something more unique and less meta-friendly. Maybe a mini-build up upon using reconstruction?

 

Telling people that a post that brings light to a set that has been destroyed and then overlooked for 15 years a "whinepost" isn't going to garner support for your idea. A quick look through your history and we can see you yourself are guilty of "whine posting," (how about those Force Fields?) so let's not do that, shall we? Do not undermine problems in this way, it's a cheep shot and undermines your character.

 

2 hours ago, Zect said:

3. Poor availability of clicks relative to encounter frequency

 

Consider the following hypothetical click powers:

• 30s duration, 90s cooldown
• 300s duration, 900s cooldown

Are they equal? Superficially, they might be, since they have the same uptime ratio (about 33%). However, in practice, the first is actually going to be a great deal stronger than the second. This is because encounters in coh typically last some 30-60 seconds including travel time to the next spawn. With the first power, assuming ED-capped rech, you get to use it nearly every spawn or so. But with the second power, you get to enjoy it for 5 minutes and then there's 10 minutes where you're buck naked. It's extremely feast-or-famine.

 

Agreed, it was given far too many clicks, remember, one of those clicks was once a toggle. I'm not saying that is the fix, but what I am saying is that it wasn't so bad that way when it come to how many powers needed to be clicked. Add on top of that, how long it takes those clicks to activate, which is the leading cause of my in game deaths since I have zero mitigation to keep me in the fight while waiting for the eternal animation to fire off for that precious heal...

 

2 hours ago, Zect said:

This is a subtle but serious issue with regen, independent from the uptime ratio of the powers (what % of time they are active). I think it stems from the fact that regen originates from a time when the game was much slower and encounter frequency lower. Paragon, and almost certainly Homecoming team, are aware of this because you can see it in the design of the newer sets. Consider Bio:

• Ablative carapace: 90s rech
• DNA siphon: 90s rech
• Parasitic aura: 45s duration, 270s rech

Observe how, even with just SO levels of recharge, you can use ablative (the primary EHP booster) and DNA siphon (the primary sustain heal) nearly every spawn, or alternate them that one is available per spawn, at 45s rech. Parasitic, the more powerful T9, would be available every (edit:) two minutes and change - perhaps saved up for a more difficult encounter where necessary.

 

Now compare regen:

• Reconstruction: 60s
• Instant healing: 90s duration, 650s (!!) rech
• Mog: 15s duration, 240s (!!!) rech

This means that IH and mog are available, at SO level, at best once every five and two minutes respectively, resulting in long periods during which the set has less recourse to incoming damage. (I find the poor availability of mog in particular very egregious because it seems clearly designed as an anti-alpha tool.) This also makes regen feel less active and less interesting to play.

 

And the reason their cooldowns are so ridiculously long might, ironically, be because the powers are too strong when active. Mog really doesn't need to give 70% res or whatever it is unenhanced on top i-capped defense. And IH would still be plenty strong at 300% to 500% ish regen. The solution here is to massively weaken both IH and mog, but substantially increase the frequency at which they are available, and possibly also tweak their uptime ratio slightly. My recommendation is that an SO regen should be able to enter every encounter with 2 major clicks (excluding DP), but with these powers significantly weakened from their existing form.

 

Couldn't agree more. Very nicely done.

 

2 hours ago, Zect said:

4. What I like to call the "scaling heals problem"

 

If you look at all sets with strong healing, they typically scale with # of enemies hit. Dark regen, RTTC, rad therapy, DNA siphon, parasitic etc. all work this way. And while it has never been stated in a design document or something, I hypothesize the reason is because Paragon (and perhaps Homecoming team - though I haven't seen enough of their work to be certain) consider that the amount of healing necessary to withstand full-team spawns would be overpowered for single-target fights. Otherwise, the amount of DPS a single AV would have to do to threaten a regen would in turn overwhelm other sets without click sustain.

 

So what we need is for some of regen's tools reworked such that they scale with the number of foes engaged. They should be substantially weaker than they currently are against a single enemy, but substantially stronger against x8 spawns. This would effectively allow regen to "scale up" its healing power when encountering large spawns, without fear of it being overpowered for single or small encounters.

 

I am not a fan of scaling regen to number of NPCs. That has to be tweaked perfectly. The last thing I want is to be staying my ground against large mobs, but run my tail off if I see an AV. There are so many sets that can just go afk while AVs are hitting them, not sure why Regen has to be any different. That sounds to me like AVs need a buff, why balance one set around AVs while leaving all the other sets completely OP? The answer should be to buff AV's, they die way too fast anyway.

 

2 hours ago, Zect said:

---

 

/snip

 

Adding 95% -regen resist - Usually when people suggest -regen resist, they what they really mean is SR-level -regen resist, 95% or better. That shouldn't happen unless you want regen to be as completely dependent on regeneration to the degree that SR is almost wholly dependent upon def (which would be terrible for different reasons).

 

Agreed, it needs -Regen Resist, but not anything ridiculous as 95%.

 

2 hours ago, Zect said:

Adding def/res - go play Bio if that's what you want. Or if you can only play half a toon, play invuln. Regen must retain its identity as a set relying on click heals as opposed to passive mitigation, in order to add variety to the oppressive, unfun, stale, yawn inducing and boring mitigation/softcap/hardcap meta. No def/res outside of the small amount you get from resilience, and mog - and I would be delighted if they changed the latter so it gives something other than mits, too.

 

Again, agreed. Not trying to turn this set in to a copy paste of WB, Bio or Rad.

 

2 hours ago, Zect said:

Adding absorb - this is less bad than the others, but if regen gets easy access to large amounts of absorb (think particle shield) then it may need to lose some strength from dull pain. Otherwise, regen's ehp may end up being too high. Note how rad/dark/etc. have no +maxhp at all and bio only has a moderate amount of +maxhp.

 

Again, I fully agree. The set does not need a fully functional Dull Pain and Absorb shields.

2 hours ago, Zect said:

I think people often underestimate the difficulty of balancing healing (as an umbrella term for regen, absorb, and actual heal damage). Healing is very easily overpowered if you allow it to get out of hand (as old Regen was at some point). It is damtype agnostic, tohit agnostic, and scales incredibly strongly with all the passive mitigation flying around in the IO system right now.

 

Nah, I think anyone who has played this game long enough to know what it was like to play Regen before the Nerf in 2004, is very aware of how hard it can be.

[Glacier Peak]

Why doesn't someone cobble together all of the suggestions, threads, and posts about regeneration - then do a word count for the most popular key words and put a sentence together to offer to the devs to change the set.

 

"Nerf" and "Regen" seems most popular 😆