It's always been this way - a tank's true role

[ZemX]

1 minute ago, Diantane said:

When I post something on a strong topic such as this, and the replies start coming in, I look for constructive replies, but somehow I get a lot of flaming. 

 

You are sooo close to the truth right here.

[Maelwys]

1 hour ago, tidge said:

Y'all have been sweethearts, but we've seen this before.

We have indeed. From 2021 all the way until quite literally just two days ago.

We appear to be stuck in yet another rerun of the best of Diantane. Does anyone get the feeling this is a Nemesis plot ? It's like some kind of dastardly evil mobius loop...
 

 

Edited May 15 by Maelwys

[Maelwys]

23 minutes ago, Diantane said:

When I post something on a strong topic such as this, and the replies start coming in, I look for constructive replies, but somehow I get a lot of flaming. They should make an AT called Forum Flamer. 

Not always.

True, a lot of people will just see the username and immediately write off this thread because they've attempted to help and handhold in the past and been ignored.
But credit where it's due, you do occasionally write something useful which is well received and gets positive feedback.
Unfortunately the vast majority of the content you have submitted here has been either rants about the mindset/behavior of other players which heavily invoke the No True Scotsman argument; or apparently-honest questions which receive multiple detailed helpful explanations that are then outright ignored and have to be restated in the very next thread a few days later.

I'm not trying to disparage or be insulting/nasty here, I'm just trying to somewhat diplomatically point out a possible reason why you're getting this kind of reaction...
(and given past experience, it's quite probable that this comment will be ignored as well... but at least I tried!) 🤷‍♂️ 😇

 

Edited May 15 by Maelwys

[Maelwys]

46 minutes ago, ZemX said:

Funny about saying they took Taunt as their "first attack".  I really like Taunt and never skip it but I do usually delay it into the middle of my build at least.  Definitely don't take it at 10.  Too much other stuff I want to fit in early and there's just no burning need for it when taunt aura and punch-voke do most of the taunting anyway. 

Veeeeery niche, but potentially relevant given the OP's previously-stated fondness for running Frostfire teams:

Whilst levelling up one of my FA Brutes on Blueside I actually made a point of taking both Taunt and Hover extremely early (levels 6 and 12 IIRC; plus Healing Flames @Lv4?) purely so that they could be a functionally immortal aggro magnet in that particular scenario and mess with the heads of the "real tanks". Although of course they still actually took proper attacks at levels 1, 2 and 8 plus Blazing Aura at level 10...
 

Edited May 15 by Maelwys

[Icono04]

8 minutes ago, Maelwys said:

We have indeed. From 2021 all the way until quite literally just two days ago.

We appear to be stuck in yet another rerun of the best of Diantain. Does anybody get the feeling that this is a Nemesis plot ? It's some kind of dastardly evil mobius loop...
 

 

@Maelwys, this post is amazing. No matter how many upvotes, likes and smileys your post receives, it will not be as many as it deserves! I enjoyed the trip down memory lane of reading the old Diantane threads you were so kind to link, all collected in one convenient place. Thank you! 

[tidge]

59 minutes ago, ZemX said:

Funny about saying they took Taunt as their "first attack". 

 

Funny thing about this... resistance toggles below level 10 are IMO barely worth toggling on, and really not worth slotting... especially for "SO" theory crafting. So exactly what is an "Alpha Tanker" doing with the build before this point?

[Spaghetti Betty]

8 hours ago, Diantane said:

Getting defense was a priority. The team does most of the damage anyway. My defense aids the team so they don't have to receive much damage. Training weak secondary attacks up front is pointless.

Ok, I will offer this.

 

You mostly team, right? And you've been playing for awhile? CoH is largely a damage and team buff-centric meta. You only need as much sustainability as it takes to deplete the enemies' HP to 0 before yours does. Having self-mitigation is great! That and being the single best form of crowd control in the game are what Tankers specialize in. The flipside to that is team support is by far stronger than anything a player character can do to oneself. It's designed that way on purpose!

 

So, the argument becomes: how much are you really contributing to your team if you yourself aren't offering anything up that isn't "Hello, I can't take damage"? The support on the team is already buffing everyone into unhittable gods, so the only thing that is really happening to you is experiencing massively diminishing returns on those buffs (especially on a Tanker that has inflated armor numbers). You should be much more inclined to building in a way that compliments this fact. And yes, that means taking your attacks on a Tank. Because when becoming a pillar of immortality is already being done for you by your team, your 2 jobs become aggro management and damage.

 

Fun fact, this is also why Tankers are considered """useless""" and """not meta""" by powergamers, because Brutes and Scrappers can fill the same role while bringing way more offense! Even though certain Tanks can clear mobs as fast as a Blaster

Edited May 15 by Spaghetti Betty

[Krimson]

Tankers can be better farmers than Brutes and they can be slotted to farm many things. I take mine to Dark Astoria to farm Knives and Tsoo.

 

If Farm is a bad word then I... clear mobs aggressively and with extreme prejudice. 

Edited May 15 by Krimson

[lemming]

3 hours ago, Diantane said:

Forum Flamer

Though I do notice, that name is available on all servers as of 7pm EST...

[lemming]

3 hours ago, Maelwys said:

and given past experience, it's quite probable that this comment will be ignored as well... but at least I tried!) 🤷‍♂️ 😇

Where's the windmill emote?! 🇳🇱

[Sovera]

5 hours ago, Diantane said:

When I post something on a strong topic such as this, and the replies start coming in, I look for constructive replies, but somehow I get a lot of flaming. They should make an AT called Forum Flamer. 

 

Somehow? Come now, Dian, you cannot be that naive. It's not like we haven't spelled things out when ever you post. You just ignore it.

 

 

Anyway, glad you found a Tanker you liked. Try the (near) immortal in my signature, the framework, and (near) immortality, starts at level 13. Everything else from then on is just adding more power or more bells and whistles, and, yes, you can two shot three fourths of a group by level 20 in the first 10 seconds of combat while still be (near) immortal.

[Snarky]

On 5/14/2024 at 3:47 PM, Diantane said:

I've been playing COH since the first hour of LIVE. The team is assembled, they stand right before the enemy and then they freeze. Waiting for something that will start the battle. Its like they are waiting for someone else to do something. Starting the "Alpha" attack which will harm that player beyond belief.

 

I've seen this and decided to do something about it. To create an "Alpha Tank" that will immediately jump into a group of baddies and be able to take  plenty of punishment. These tanking players do the same on other mmo's, but there the healer is standing by ready to aid the tank. In this game its rarely that organized. So the tank that I create has to be defensive enough to take a beating without much help from the rest of the team.

 

Tried many combinations of tanks and kept failing. They had no staying abilities. So I created a list of goals:

 

1) High endurance recovery

2) Lower endurance use

3) Very high defense

4) Very high health

 

Tried Invul and it was a very good defense, but ran out of endurance quickly and all of the defensive toggles dropped. The same with Super Reflexes.

 

The best defense I tried was Radiation. Not only is the defense high, but they get the essence of two stamina's with Gamma Boost, a very high absorption (1,100 with single origin enhancements at 50) with Particle Shielding, a negative to-hit buff with Beta Decay, a substantial heal with Radiation Therapy and a emergency defense with very little loss when it ends with Meltdown.

 

As they say, your best defense is a good offense. I found that Ice Melee gives you the best "defense." Using Ice Patch keeps most from touching you. With two recharge reduction enhancements and Hasten, I can keep up to two patches going at once; casting another in 2-3 seconds. And Frozen Aura does just as much AoE damage as Foot Stomp does with Super Strength. Except all of my other attack powers slow the enemy down and accept a "Slow" enhancement.

 

In first creating this tank, I chose only defense powers with my first attack power at level 10 (Taunt) and my second at level 20 (Ice Patch). My third attack power came at level 30 -- tier 9's Frozen Aura. But by then I had all of my defenses including Tough and Weave. After that I filled in with the other secondary powers. I also trained Leadership's Maneuvers and Tactics so I could see through "blindness." As well as Teleportation to get Fold Space so I could tighten up nearby groups.

 

I've been working with this 50 vet often and he's definitely a team pleaser.

Out of curiosity before you dropped Invul for running out  of endurance did you do any research on how to build it correctly?

[Hyperstrike]

On 5/14/2024 at 5:47 PM, Diantane said:

Tried Invul and it was a very good defense, but ran out of endurance quickly and all of the defensive toggles dropped. The same with Super Reflexes.

The basic mechanics to crack the Endurance suck has been cracked since shortly after the release of IO sets.

NO, you CANNOT spam everything like a cracked-out rabbit played back at double speed.

But if you're worried about maintaining damage output, its a simple exercise.

[Hyperstrike]

10 hours ago, Spaghetti Betty said:

Fun fact, this is also why Tankers are considered """useless""" and """not meta""" by powergamers, because Brutes and Scrappers can fill the same role while bringing way more offense! Even though certain Tanks can clear mobs as fast as a Blaster

How much damage does a dead Brute/Scrapper do?

No, a tank may or may not burn VERY powerful enemies down.
But fighting to an infinite stalemate?

EASILY doable.
And to a Tank, a stalemate is winning.

[Hyperstrike]

11 hours ago, Maelwys said:

Veeeeery niche, but potentially relevant given the OP's previously-stated fondness for running Frostfire teams:

Whilst levelling up one of my FA Brutes on Blueside I actually made a point of taking both Taunt and Hover extremely early (levels 6 and 12 IIRC; plus Healing Flames @Lv4?) purely so that they could be a functionally immortal aggro magnet in that particular scenario and mess with the heads of the "real tanks". Although of course they still actually took proper attacks at levels 1, 2 and 8 plus Blazing Aura at level 10...
 

They always seem to forget that Taunt can be slotted as an attack.
It's a form of control as well.
AND IT IS AUTO-HIT!

What more do some people want?  An expressly created "I Win" button?

[Spaghetti Betty]

9 minutes ago, Hyperstrike said:

How much damage does a dead Brute/Scrapper do?

No, a tank may or may not burn VERY powerful enemies down.
But fighting to an infinite stalemate?

EASILY doable.
And to a Tank, a stalemate is winning.

This feels like a reach. I have Tanks, Brutes, and Scrappers that can solo plenty of hard targets. And win! And by winning, I mean getting their HP to 0!

[Hyperstrike]

18 minutes ago, Spaghetti Betty said:

This feels like a reach. I have Tanks, Brutes, and Scrappers that can solo plenty of hard targets. And win! And by winning, I mean getting their HP to 0!

Not saying they cannot.

But there ARE enemies where battles can be...prolonged.

In long battles, scrappers have problems with survivability without support or burning through temps.

Brutes fare a bit better, because the differences between tanks and brutes have largely equalized over time.

In the end though, the ultimate edge of tanks is in raw stats.

But what do I know?  I've only been Tanking, Scrapping and Brutalizing since 2008.
I'm a N00B.

Edited May 16 by Hyperstrike

[Spaghetti Betty]

18 minutes ago, Hyperstrike said:

Not saying they cannot.

But there ARE enemies where battles can be...prolonged.

In long battles, scrappers have problems with survivability without support or burning through temps.

Brutes fare a bit better, because the differences between tanks and brutes have largely equalized over time.

In the end though, the ultimate edge of tanks is in raw stats.

Sorry! This still feels like you missed the point of my post originally. In a team scenario, team buffs will overshadow anything a single player can make their toon do, so if you know you're going to be teaming almost all of the time, why put all of your bananas into mitigation? Especially on an AT with inflated armor values?

 

Even as an aside, interaction with the IO system and Incarnates means my Tankers will have the mitigation of a Tanker and hit like a Blaster. I think that's pretty good for a solo venture.

 

18 minutes ago, Hyperstrike said:

But what do I know?  I've only been Tanking, Scrapping and Brutalizing since 2008.
I'm a N00B.

I have 4 years on you! Muahahaha- augh my back

Edited May 16 by Spaghetti Betty

[Hyperstrike]

6 minutes ago, Spaghetti Betty said:

Sorry! This still feels like you missed the point of my post originally. In a team scenario, team buffs will overshadow anything a single player can make their toon do, so if you know you're going to be teaming almost all of the time, why put all of your bananas into mitigation? Especially on an AT with inflated armor values?

  

Little aside, in BattleTech, I was a founder of a group called "The Church of Munchkin:"

 

Getting the picture?

I'm a big fan of survivability in a steady state.

It gives a lot more opportunities to stumble out of a nuclear powered meat grinder, with others popping their eyes and going "HOW THE **** DID YOU SURVIVE THAT?"

Never claimed I didn't have an ego...



 

12 minutes ago, Spaghetti Betty said:

Even as an aside, interaction with the IO system and Incarnates means my Tankers will have the mitigation of a Tanker and hit like a Blaster. I think that's pretty good for a solo venture.

"Good" is not "Best Possible".

Sure, I could trail a team of healing types like some Hami raids do.

Why take the time when I can just run up, pimp-slap them and invite them to hit me in the face?

 

12 minutes ago, Spaghetti Betty said:

I have 4 years on you! Muahahaha- augh my back

 

 

[Maelwys]

1 hour ago, Hyperstrike said:

What more do some people want?  An expressly created "I Win" button?

I mean...

[Spaghetti Betty]

15 minutes ago, Hyperstrike said:

"Good" is not "Best Possible".

With all due respect, Mr. Strike. Actually, can I just call you Hyper? I vehemently believe my version of "good" might hit the mark a bit better than the usual "best possible".

Edited May 16 by Spaghetti Betty

[Maelwys]

  

41 minutes ago, Spaghetti Betty said:

why put all of your bananas into mitigation?

 

25 minutes ago, Hyperstrike said:

I'm a big fan of survivability in a steady state.

 

I've told this story before... but I remember about a decade-and-a-half ago whenever I took my Katana/Regen Scrapper into Warburg to meet a SG buddy's Invulnerability/Mace Tanker. We had a bet going as to who would last longer; the I-can-kill-a-whole-map DPS or the I-can-tank-a-whole-map Tank.

We were still there whacking each other a few hours later.


Eventually another SG friend came along to "watch" and invited us over to take a break.

So we called a time-out and both jumped over next to them... and landed in a big pile of trip mines that the dirty little cheating so-and-so had been secretly laying for the better part of 20mins, and which we couldn't see because of all the knee-deep water.

FOOM. 

Cue much merriment and both melee ATs chasing the stupid ranged "squishy" around the zone as they squeal with laughter.

Fun times...
 

Edited May 16 by Maelwys

[SeraphimKensai]

I definitely want @Diantane to come to Tanker Tuesdays. We could always use a rad/ice tanker.

[tidge]

@Spaghetti Betty point about team buffs is a valid one, and related to my comments about not necessarily needing to turn on Resistance toggles, as well as it not being necessary to slot them particularly deep (modulo Enhancement set bonuses, 'natch).

 

I'm particularly flummoxed about how the Invulnerability Tanker was running out of Endurance without taking attacks (beyond the level 1 and Taunt picks I suppose). I kinda want to see what that build looked like, especially below level 10. Even simply picking primary powers before level 10 would have been two auto powers. I suppose if the player was somehow relying on START/P2W attacks, yeah those could burn through Endurance.

[Hyperstrike]

4 hours ago, Spaghetti Betty said:

With all due respect, Mr. Strike. Actually, can I just call you Hyper? I vehemently believe my version of "good" might hit the mark a bit better than the usual "best possible".

Calling me "Mister" is well above my pay grade,,,,

 

As for "better than the usual best possible".

Base Invincibility.



 

Edited May 16 by Hyperstrike