Prestige and subscription

[biffrons69]

Will prestige ever come back? Why can't this game go back to monthly subscription so it can get even better? I'm happy it's back but I would prefer the old City of Heroes.

Edited August 18 by biffrons69

[Techwright]

Be grateful the game even exists.  There was a long, hard-won negotiation with NC Soft to permit the game's return and under very specific regulations, some of which are known only between NC Soft and the volunteer development team.  NC Soft is apparently not interested in returning the game to a paid status, so everything must be done on a voluntary basis.  Even payments to keep the servers running is voluntary.    The game has already improved in a wide variety of ways due to the development team's voluntary self-sacrifice.

[Luminara]

1 hour ago, biffrons69 said:

Will prestige ever come back?

 

It's possible that it will be repurposed in some manner, but not as a rent and maintenance fee.  The problems with prestige were twofold: first, it restricted many players from having or fully utilizing bases; and second, it utterly and completely failed as an anti-inflationary measure.  Removing prestige solved the problem of widening access to bases, while simultaneously realizing the dream of "player housing" that was often given nods and smiles by Cryptic and Paragon, but never actually addressed; and the problem of inflation was handled in other ways, so prestige wasn't necessary as an anti-inflationary tool (which, again, it failed to achieve anyway).

 

In the modern game, the lack of paid base ownership and upkeep has also been a factor in balance and design.  Because bases are free, several changes could be made to permit players to more fully utilize them.  Several base portals were moved to more advantageous locations, for example, and the Long Range Teleporter power could incorporate base ownership into its utility, which grants players wider access to bases and greater freedom when moving between zones, or even across hero/villain/Praetorian boundaries.

 

Removing prestige also allowed creative players to flourish, and a thriving base-building group of players has developed as a result of that.  Not having to grind for prestige, not having to be afraid that "messing up" would cost them a month of play time they'd have to invest in grinding more prestige to fix something, has opened up doors for players interested in bases, from the first-time tinkerers who simply want a place to sit down and relax between missions, to the artists who can build bases that rival anything seen in film.  There are even players who do little else but build bases, some simply for the enjoyment of creation, some as a means of in-game income, some to grow their base-building muscles to new heights by answering the challenge of making what someone else envisions.  Reintroducing rent and maintenance at this point would have a disastrous effect on these players, and we would all be worse off for the loss.

 

2 hours ago, biffrons69 said:

Why can't this game go back to monthly subscription so it can get even better?

 

The owner of the license isn't interested in remuneration or profit on this intellectual property, so the licensing agreement for a free-to-play model was acceptable to them.  The HC team isn't interested in turning the game into a profitable enterprise, either.  No-one wants money out of this.  No-one.

 

Additionally, the player base here isn't large enough for a subscription model to work.  There are currently ~50 people investing time in this project in some capacity.  If we presume there will be 5000 players guaranteed to pay $15/month, that only comes out to ~$1500/month for each person on the HC team, and that is presuming that they're all given an equal slice of the pie, rather than an hourly wage, a salary or a tiered pay structure.  That's not really the kind of pay that would compensate them for giving up their careers.

 

And on the subject of careers, there's nothing to indicate that they want to stop what they're doing and do this for a living.  This is a hobby for them, what they do when they're not doing their jobs.

 

Furthermore, the conflation of money with improvement is erroneous.  There are far too many bad games out there in the wild, developed by people paid to do it, to believe that hiring a developer or two (which would be all they could afford), or putting the money into their own accounts, would make the game "better".  Money isn't an assurance of quality these days, nor does it buy commitment or familiarity with the engine and all of its glorious flaws.

 

Abandoning the subscription model may not guarantee longevity or quality either, but at least it keeps the game in the hands of people who are passionate about it.  The game was restored to life by players who couldn't bear to let it die.  The agreement with NC was reached by players who couldn't accept that it had to be stuck forever in a hazy legal limbo.  The past five years of development has been done by players.  Players are the owners and operators of the Homecoming servers.  That's where the game belongs.  With the players.  Not with someone who's just doing a job, who doesn't care because he/she is going to get paid anyway.

 

[Glacier Peak]

3 hours ago, biffrons69 said:

Will prestige ever come back? Why can't this game go back to monthly subscription so it can get even better? I'm happy it's back but I would prefer the old City of Heroes.

Base Prestige? It's been turned off and all base items are now free. No reason to have Prestige. 

 

Why can't it the game go back to monthly subscription? Well that's simple - that would be altering the deal and the powers that be don't want to alter it further than it was...

 

[Greycat]

3 hours ago, biffrons69 said:

Will prestige ever come back? Why can't this game go back to monthly subscription so it can get even better? I'm happy it's back but I would prefer the old City of Heroes.

 

1. HELL NO to prestige. I wish even mention of it in the SG listings was gone. Prestige was nothing good, and was nothing but restrictive back on live.

 

2. No, it's not going to subscription. It's a volunteer team. And likely couldn't go back to it due to NC.

[tidge]

4 hours ago, biffrons69 said:

Will prestige ever come back? Why can't this game go back to monthly subscription so it can get even better? I'm happy it's back but I would prefer the old City of Heroes.

 

I think if you spend some more time experiencing what Homecoming has implemented, you will find that you enjoy the game much more without prestige.

 

41 minutes ago, Luminara said:

Removing prestige also allowed creative players to flourish, and a thriving base-building group of players has developed as a result of that.  Not having to grind for prestige, not having to be afraid that "messing up" would cost them a month of play time they'd have to invest in grinding more prestige to fix something, has opened up doors for players interested in bases, from the first-time tinkerers who simply want a place to sit down and relax between missions, to the artists who can build bases that rival anything seen in film.  There are even players who do little else but build bases, some simply for the enjoyment of creation, some as a means of in-game income, some to grow their base-building muscles to new heights by answering the challenge of making what someone else envisions.  Reintroducing rent and maintenance at this point would have a disastrous effect on these players, and we would all be worse off for the loss.

 

[PeregrineFalcon]

1 hour ago, Luminara said:

It's possible that it will be repurposed in some manner, but not as a rent and maintenance fee.

Whenever this and certain other subjects come up you always respond so directly and confidently that your post reads like it was written by a dev, or someone who talks to the devs daily.

 

So which one is it? I'm curious.

[cranebump]

2 hours ago, Luminara said:

Furthermore, the conflation of money with improvement is erroneous.  There are far too many bad games out there in the wild, developed by people paid to do it, to believe that hiring a developer or two (which would be all they could afford), or putting the money into their own accounts, would make the game "better".  Money isn't an assurance of quality these days, nor does it buy commitment or familiarity with the engine and all of its glorious flaws.

Bingo. Very much Bingo. Bingo was its name-o.

 

(did I mention bingo?)

[Oubliette_Red]

 

34 minutes ago, cranebump said:

2 hours ago, Luminara said:

 

Furthermore, the conflation of money with improvement is erroneous.  There are far too many bad games out there in the wild, developed by people paid to do it, to believe that hiring a developer or two (which would be all they could afford), or putting the money into their own accounts, would make the game "better".  Money isn't an assurance of quality these days, nor does it buy commitment or familiarity with the engine and all of its glorious flaws.

 

Bingo. Very much Bingo. Bingo was its name-o.

 

(did I mention bingo?)

 

Let us not forget that having a sub will not grant the volunteers any more time to work on fixes and features that they currently have.

[Luminara]

2 minutes ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

Whenever this and certain other subjects come up you always respond so directly and confidently that your post reads like it was written by a dev, or someone who talks to the devs daily.

 

So which one is it? I'm curious.

 

Neither.  I'm not... ambitious enough to be a developer (by which i mean i'm fucking lazy).  And they've never answered any of my PMs, nor do I use Discord.  I read what they post, observe their actions and decisions, and extrapolate the next points on the graph.

[Luminara]

2 hours ago, tidge said:

 

[Snarky]

7 hours ago, biffrons69 said:

Will prestige ever come back? Why can't this game go back to monthly subscription so it can get even better? I'm happy it's back but I would prefer the old City of Heroes.

if you send me $30.00 a month i guarantee the fulfillment you will receive will be immeasurable.

[shortguy on indom]

[biffrons69]

I am happy it's back but I am also old school so if that offends people then so be it. I enjoyed playing the game in the past and had 3 accounts to play with. Not gonna apologize for my post.

[honoroit]

31 minutes ago, biffrons69 said:

I am happy it's back but I am also old school so if that offends people then so be it. I enjoyed playing the game in the past and had 3 accounts to play with. Not gonna apologize for my post.

 

I quite like that you can make fancy, creative bases without having to grind lots, or have a massive SG you need to convince people to stay in (to accrue points), or any of that complexity which detracted from the doing of the creation - and existed only to create a sunken cost for the player / extend subs. 

 

It's a breath of fresh air that mechanisms like that don't exist on homecoming.

 

there's a donation system, if you want to pay to support the servers - and you could do that every month if you want it to be like a subscription.

 

 

 

 

[Jacke]

9 hours ago, biffrons69 said:

Why can't this game go back to monthly subscription so it can get even better?

 

Probably under the terms of the licence with NCSoft, Homecoming can gather donations to cover their costs and keep a reserve of funds, but no more and not act as a commercial operation.  Taking in monthly subscriptions has a whole Level of near-flat and per-user administration costs and requirements, along with perhaps not being in line with how Homecoming is set up corporately or licenced.

 

Homecoming gets by now as a volunteer donation-supported organization.  With a better Development rate than many commercial MMOs.  Throwing money at a situation doesn't always improve things.

[SeraphimKensai]

1 hour ago, biffrons69 said:

I am happy it's back but I am also old school so if that offends people then so be it. I enjoyed playing the game in the past and had 3 accounts to play with. Not gonna apologize for my post.

Cool beans. Most of us have three accounts a piece as well. If you wanna pay for the game, we appreciate that, and you can like a lot of us do by paying for the servers via the monthly donation window.

 

There's new powersets, missions, storyarcs, costume pieces, prestige costumes, vanity pets, events, and base items that have been added, not to mention the new AT that was added when Homecoming was known as SCORE. We have a 64-bit exe, and a bunch of work under the hood as well that has been done to a dead game that was brought back for a second go.

 

If you want more features added to the game volunteer your time and expertise to help the dev team out as they have an open application out on these forums whether that be becoming a dev, gm, or tester.

 

Stay safe out there.

[Apogee]

11 hours ago, biffrons69 said:

I am happy it's back but I am also old school so if that offends people then so be it. I enjoyed playing the game in the past and had 3 accounts to play with. Not gonna apologize for my post.

 

I don't think anyone is offended by you being old school.  Quite a few of us here qualify for senior discounts.

[GM Crumpet]

17 hours ago, Luminara said:

 

It's possible that it will be repurposed in some manner, but not as a rent and maintenance fee.  The problems with prestige were twofold: first, it restricted many players from having or fully utilizing bases; and second, it utterly and completely failed as an anti-inflationary measure.  Removing prestige solved the problem of widening access to bases, while simultaneously realizing the dream of "player housing" that was often given nods and smiles by Cryptic and Paragon, but never actually addressed; and the problem of inflation was handled in other ways, so prestige wasn't necessary as an anti-inflationary tool (which, again, it failed to achieve anyway).

 

In the modern game, the lack of paid base ownership and upkeep has also been a factor in balance and design.  Because bases are free, several changes could be made to permit players to more fully utilize them.  Several base portals were moved to more advantageous locations, for example, and the Long Range Teleporter power could incorporate base ownership into its utility, which grants players wider access to bases and greater freedom when moving between zones, or even across hero/villain/Praetorian boundaries.

 

Removing prestige also allowed creative players to flourish, and a thriving base-building group of players has developed as a result of that.  Not having to grind for prestige, not having to be afraid that "messing up" would cost them a month of play time they'd have to invest in grinding more prestige to fix something, has opened up doors for players interested in bases, from the first-time tinkerers who simply want a place to sit down and relax between missions, to the artists who can build bases that rival anything seen in film.  There are even players who do little else but build bases, some simply for the enjoyment of creation, some as a means of in-game income, some to grow their base-building muscles to new heights by answering the challenge of making what someone else envisions.  Reintroducing rent and maintenance at this point would have a disastrous effect on these players, and we would all be worse off for the loss.

 

 

The owner of the license isn't interested in remuneration or profit on this intellectual property, so the licensing agreement for a free-to-play model was acceptable to them.  The HC team isn't interested in turning the game into a profitable enterprise, either.  No-one wants money out of this.  No-one.

 

Additionally, the player base here isn't large enough for a subscription model to work.  There are currently ~50 people investing time in this project in some capacity.  If we presume there will be 5000 players guaranteed to pay $15/month, that only comes out to ~$1500/month for each person on the HC team, and that is presuming that they're all given an equal slice of the pie, rather than an hourly wage, a salary or a tiered pay structure.  That's not really the kind of pay that would compensate them for giving up their careers.

 

And on the subject of careers, there's nothing to indicate that they want to stop what they're doing and do this for a living.  This is a hobby for them, what they do when they're not doing their jobs.

 

Furthermore, the conflation of money with improvement is erroneous.  There are far too many bad games out there in the wild, developed by people paid to do it, to believe that hiring a developer or two (which would be all they could afford), or putting the money into their own accounts, would make the game "better".  Money isn't an assurance of quality these days, nor does it buy commitment or familiarity with the engine and all of its glorious flaws.

 

Abandoning the subscription model may not guarantee longevity or quality either, but at least it keeps the game in the hands of people who are passionate about it.  The game was restored to life by players who couldn't bear to let it die.  The agreement with NC was reached by players who couldn't accept that it had to be stuck forever in a hazy legal limbo.  The past five years of development has been done by players.  Players are the owners and operators of the Homecoming servers.  That's where the game belongs.  With the players.  Not with someone who's just doing a job, who doesn't care because he/she is going to get paid anyway.

 

I think you made every point I was going to make but a lot more eloquently than me 🙂 

 

As unpaid volunteers we have a lot of quality people involved who can dip in and out when we need to rather than have to be available at set times. We do it for love, not money 🙂 

[Snarky]

Is this where i rant then?

[Scarlet Shocker]

I wonder what it was about the live game the OP prefers? Since Sunset we got our beloved game back, we have new ATs, we have lots of new content, and I think most of us would agree that the game is better now than what it was when it wasn't as good as what it is.

 

13 minutes ago, Snarky said:

Is this where i rant then?

 

Why are you asking? You never usually ask when to rant. 🤣

[Bio-Link]

i like the idea of sg and coalitions earning prestige, and maybe get the sg raids going again, maybe earn some sg buff when teaming with a certain amount of guildies, like small stuff

[Bionic_Flea]

18 hours ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

Whenever this and certain other subjects come up you always respond so directly and confidently that your post reads like it was written by a dev, or someone who talks to the devs daily.

 

So which one is it? I'm curious.

 

Why not both?

 

[Without_Pause]

I do believe CoH and so many other MMOs found it was better for their finances to actually go to a F2P model than a subscription. The odds of any MMO using a sub at this point is rather low. Yes, I know they exist. They still aren't common.

[momentarygrace]