Wait... no Super Strength for Scrappers?

[Bopper]

Just now, Infinitum said:

I honestly forgot to check, and not going back upstairs till the a.c. blower gets fixed.  It's hotter than Satan's buttcrack up there right now.

 

If anything was open today, I could get a capacitor and fix it myself.

 

I'll check again later when it's not so hot.

I dont blame you. Its 106 degrees here today. Staying downstairs where its 10 degrees cooler is the way to go.

[Infinitum]

43 minutes ago, Bopper said:

I dont blame you. Its 106 degrees here today. Staying downstairs where its 10 degrees cooler is the way to go.

AC is fixed now thankfully.

 

Do any of the CoT do -dmg to you?  cause i just did it on Nemesis and jab was 5 haymaker was 11 KO Blow was 24.  Same on combat log.

 

Earlier i was testing it on the death mages at portal corp.

[Bopper]

41 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

AC is fixed now thankfully.

 

Do any of the CoT do -dmg to you?  cause i just did it on Nemesis and jab was 5 haymaker was 11 KO Blow was 24.  Same on combat log.

 

Earlier i was testing it on the death mages at portal corp.

It wont matter if there's any additional damage debuffs because rage will guarantee you are at the capped limit on debuffs. So you should still be doing 10% of base numbers which I quoted earlier.

 

Purple patch still applies though. So it they are lower level you would do higher damage. (No that I think of it, purple patch is probably why you saw 2's before. Doh)

[Sir Myshkin]

1 hour ago, Infinitum said:

You can't justify the set being OP because of proc effects

And once again, I repeat myself when I say: I'm not talking about the set, I am talking about Rage. I am not talking about Procs, I am talking about just Rage.

 

3 hours ago, Infinitum said:

and other bonuses though, because

Again, no, you cannot invalidate the existence of IO sets or bonuses that come from them. They are clearly an integral part of the game. We can exclude damage procs without question, that's static and doesn't prove anything for anyone one way or another, but not the interactions of sets, and the bonuses they provide. Besides that, I already proved with a demonstrated build it was possible to build a character on SO's alone to invalidate the Defense Debuff if one so desired.

 

3 hours ago, Infinitum said:

but you still do no damage worth mentioning for 10 seconds.

Even in the case of a non-IO world, Temporary Powers still work exclusive to the crash and are an alternate option that has always existed, and has been used. It becomes a loop hole out of the crash in the first place. The crash is either ignored and supplemented through other means, or falls in a timing window that it never mattered in the first place, so to say the hundreds of Super Strength characters in existence all sit and twiddle their thumbs during the crash... come on.

 

1 hour ago, Infinitum said:

Especially proc monsters.

Procs play by the same rules and regulations on all AT's, that in itself is equal playing field for all, and no circumstance exists where procs imbalance an entire set compared to any other within each AT. Inherently, that's balance because its fair use for all.

 

Rage is not fair use for all, Rage is greedy and selfish and willing to break the rules to benefit itself and hide behind the disinformation of a crash effect that is so forgettable folks probably don't even notice it happens until it's nearly over.

 

3 hours ago, Infinitum said:

With rage you are penalized then penalized again if you are double stacking, and that will kill a novice.

We must not have any novices playing the game then because I haven't seen any posts complaining about "Rage killed me," and it would be a fool's errand to try and say people aren't double stacking Rage in excess; it is by the nature of this game one of the immediate things most players of Super Strength strive to achieve.

 

Look, we're both entitled to some form of an opinion on the matter, but the proof is in the data and math. I'll leave you with this one singular tidbit: The adjusted DPA of Jab (the worst functional T1 Melee power in the game) with the crash effect accounted for, and double Rage is 49.66. Since Rage is permanent and easily achievable to do so, the effect is static 100% of the time meaning it instantly adjusts the function of the entire set and redefines it. This makes Jab the fourth strongest un-enhanced DPA attack behind Charged Brawl (overcompensated for being one of only two ST in EleMelee), Barrage (heh, funny that), and Swipe (Follow Up). Shadow Punch can be pseudo included as having better potential under Soul Drain, but that effect is not consistent, and much harder to achieve a "perma" state, so it gets Honorable Mention.

 

If you can't see that as broken, I don't know what to tell ya.

 

Oh, Nerf Rage.
 

[Infinitum]

2 hours ago, Sir Myshkin said:

And once again, I repeat myself when I say: I'm not talking about the set, I am talking about Rage. I am not talking about Procs, I am talking about just Rage.

You cant legitimately separate the two, because rage by itself without the Procs, or set bonuses make it worlds harder than without them.  Rage by itself sucks honestly its not OP and its a hard mechanic to work around when it crashes.

 

2 hours ago, Sir Myshkin said:

Again, no, you cannot invalidate the existence of IO sets or bonuses that come from them. They are clearly an integral part of the game. We can exclude damage procs without question, that's static and doesn't prove anything for anyone one way or another, but not the interactions of sets, and the bonuses they provide. Besides that, I already proved with a demonstrated build it was possible to build a character on SO's alone to invalidate the Defense Debuff if one so desired.

In game i would dispute this, because there is no way when playing a Hybrid resist/defense set without the existence of Procs and other set bonuses against certain types of enemy that can defense debuff especially that Rage will put you in a bad way really fast.

 

2 hours ago, Sir Myshkin said:

Even in the case of a non-IO world, Temporary Powers still work exclusive to the crash and are an alternate option that has always existed, and has been used. It becomes a loop hole out of the crash in the first place. The crash is either ignored and supplemented through other means, or falls in a timing window that it never mattered in the first place, so to say the hundreds of Super Strength characters in existence all sit and twiddle their thumbs during the crash... come on.

No you wont ever get me to accept temp powers to buff around a mechanic designed to gimp you - and rightfully so - as a means to overcome the mechanic.  Sorry but that dog doesnt hunt.

2 hours ago, Sir Myshkin said:

We must not have any novices playing the game then because I haven't seen any posts complaining about "Rage killed me," and it would be a fool's errand to try and say people aren't double stacking Rage in excess; it is by the nature of this game one of the immediate things most players of Super Strength strive to achieve.

LoL if you read back a ways on some of the old rage topics you can find tons of this, maybe even one where i shelved my Invul/SS last June because i hadnt figured out how to overcome the new rage crash yet.  Theres lots of gripes out there about rage crash and how bad it is.

 

2 hours ago, Sir Myshkin said:

Look, we're both entitled to some form of an opinion on the matter, but the proof is in the data and math. I'll leave you with this one singular tidbit: The adjusted DPA of Jab (the worst functional T1 Melee power in the game) with the crash effect accounted for, and double Rage is 49.66. Since Rage is permanent and easily achievable to do so, the effect is static 100% of the time meaning it instantly adjusts the function of the entire set and redefines it. This makes Jab the fourth strongest un-enhanced DPA attack behind Charged Brawl (overcompensated for being one of only two ST in EleMelee), Barrage (heh, funny that), and Swipe (Follow Up). Shadow Punch can be pseudo included as having better potential under Soul Drain, but that effect is not consistent, and much harder to achieve a "perma" state, so it gets Honorable Mention.

 

If you can't see that as broken, I don't know what to tell ya.

 

Oh, Nerf Rage.

but again, rage crashes - therefore it cant be 100% up, the crash is there whether you admit it or not.  you have 10 seconds of not being able to do anything, and a frequent back to back 10 seconds if you are double stacking rage.

 

Its not perma even if you have it running its never perma because... it... will... crash.

 

If anything is broken it isnt rage its SS as a whole, because as it is its fun to have that vulnerability to work around.  Saying it isnt a vulnerability is disingenuous at best.

 

I personally dont see it as broken anymore, because its limitation is in the crash.  You literally have to build around it to not matter.

[Hjarki]

47 minutes ago, Sir Myshkin said:

Look, we're both entitled to some form of an opinion on the matter, but the proof is in the data and math. I'll leave you with this one singular tidbit: The adjusted DPA of Jab (the worst functional T1 Melee power in the game) with the crash effect accounted for, and double Rage is 49.66. Since Rage is permanent and easily achievable to do so, the effect is static 100% of the time meaning it instantly adjusts the function of the entire set and redefines it. This makes Jab the fourth strongest un-enhanced DPA attack behind Charged Brawl (overcompensated for being one of only two ST in EleMelee), Barrage (heh, funny that), and Swipe (Follow Up). Shadow Punch can be pseudo included as having better potential under Soul Drain, but that effect is not consistent, and much harder to achieve a "perma" state, so it gets Honorable Mention.

I think 'unenhanced' is a significant wrinkle.

 

Stone Melee is the most direct comparison. With +100% from enhancements, Jab and Stone Fist would deal approximately the same damage. With +145% from enhancements/other sources, Seismic Smash and Knockout Blow would deal equivalent damage and with +198% from enhancements/other sources, Haymaker and Heavy Mallet do the same damage. So I'd argue that Brutes aren't likely to choose Super Strength given the damage bonuses from Fury unless they're primarily concerned about something other than single target damage.

 

Neither set is particularly good at AE, but Super Strength is better even without Rage. However, Rage does increase all the other AE the player does - and there are good options (unlike with single target).

 

I think there's also a 'good against remotes' aspect to this discussion. As noted above, bringing significant +damage from other sources rapidly diminishes the value of Rage. Spending 1/6th of your time in "can't hold aggro" mode is a big problem for most tanks in a team setting. I suppose a farm toon would be possible... if you can deal with over-slotting for defense so you can survive the -20% defense crash. Pylon tests and fights that are like pylon tests - such as AV/GM - would work. But in an AV/GM fight, you're probably the guy who need to hold threat and it's likely you have +damage buffs from somewhere (various Assault if nothing else).

 

[marcussmythe]

7 hours ago, Infinitum said:

There are no penalties to proc monsters.

I find ‘proc monstering’ to be an overstated problem.  While potentially very powerful on specific outlier powers, every power that gets procced is a pile of high value set bonuses left on the floor, mainly survival bonuses and recharge bonuses.

 

Set bonuses gave a fantastic survival tool to all ATs, when only some needed it.  There is little value in taking a tank from ‘Can survive’ to ‘Can survive indefinitely while AFK’.  Proccing out attacks allows ATs that do not need additional survival tools to instead gain additional damage tools, redressing this imbalance.  

I wonder if some of the Superstrength/Rage issue would be solved if Rage could only buff attacks -in superstrength-.  The real power of SS, it appears to me, grows out of its ability to leverage rage across high DPA Pool Attacks - most of the powers in superstrength itself are unimpressive in the absence of the Rage buff - likely by design.  I wonder if some of the disconnect is the people who say Rage is fine using it as originally envisioned, in an era before nukes got built into defense sets and before Power Pool attacks had better DPA than many if the best in-set powers in the game - while the people that say nerf rage really mean nerf ‘Rage plus Boxing plus Cross Punch plus Gloom plus Dark Obliteration’.

[Infinitum]

53 minutes ago, Hjarki said:

I think 'unenhanced' is a significant wrinkle.

 

Stone Melee is the most direct comparison. With +100% from enhancements, Jab and Stone Fist would deal approximately the same damage. With +145% from enhancements/other sources, Seismic Smash and Knockout Blow would deal equivalent damage and with +198% from enhancements/other sources, Haymaker and Heavy Mallet do the same damage. So I'd argue that Brutes aren't likely to choose Super Strength given the damage bonuses from Fury unless they're primarily concerned about something other than single target damage.

 

Neither set is particularly good at AE, but Super Strength is better even without Rage. However, Rage does increase all the other AE the player does - and there are good options (unlike with single target).

 

I think there's also a 'good against remotes' aspect to this discussion. As noted above, bringing significant +damage from other sources rapidly diminishes the value of Rage. Spending 1/6th of your time in "can't hold aggro" mode is a big problem for most tanks in a team setting. I suppose a farm toon would be possible... if you can deal with over-slotting for defense so you can survive the -20% defense crash. Pylon tests and fights that are like pylon tests - such as AV/GM - would work. But in an AV/GM fight, you're probably the guy who need to hold threat and it's likely you have +damage buffs from somewhere (various Assault if nothing else).

 

Bingo

[Infinitum]

20 minutes ago, marcussmythe said:

I find ‘proc monstering’ to be an overstated problem.  While potentially very powerful on specific outlier powers, every power that gets procced is a pile of high value set bonuses left on the floor, mainly survival bonuses and recharge bonuses.

 

Set bonuses gave a fantastic survival tool to all ATs, when only some needed it.  There is little value in taking a tank from ‘Can survive’ to ‘Can survive indefinitely while AFK’.  Proccing out attacks allows ATs that do not need additional survival tools to instead gain additional damage tools, redressing this imbalance.  

I wonder if some of the Superstrength/Rage issue would be solved if Rage could only buff attacks -in superstrength-.  The real power of SS, it appears to me, grows out of its ability to leverage rage across high DPA Pool Attacks - most of the powers in superstrength itself are unimpressive in the absence of the Rage buff - likely by design.  I wonder if some of the disconnect is the people who say Rage is fine using it as originally envisioned, in an era before nukes got built into defense sets and before Power Pool attacks had better DPA than many if the best in-set powers in the game - while the people that say nerf rage really mean nerf ‘Rage plus Boxing plus Cross Punch plus Gloom plus Dark Obliteration’.

I guess im a purist, because i never use any of the pool power attacks. I take that back,  I have used spring attack once actually and its fantastic.

[Infinitum]

4 hours ago, Sir Myshkin said:

We must not have any novices playing the game then because I haven't seen any posts complaining about "Rage killed me," and it would be a fool's errand to try and say people aren't double stacking Rage in excess; it is by the nature of this game one of the immediate things most players of Super Strength strive to achieve.

Visit that thread and you can see plenty of that  lol

[Murcielago]

Scrappers still don't have super strength?

[Bill Z Bubba]

7 hours ago, Murcielago said:

Scrappers still don't have super strength?

I only built this em/sr brute because scrappers don't get EM. Granted... I still love her but she'd be better as a scrapper.

[nihilii]

On 7/13/2020 at 4:38 AM, Infinitum said:

Rage by itself sucks honestly its not OP and its a hard mechanic to work around when it crashes.

Rage is the single most broken power in the game, which becomes obvious the further you stray from lvl 50 full IOed out build with incarnates.

At level 18, Rage lets you ignore accuracy slotting and most enemy tohit debuffs or defense buffs, and gives you almost 3 SO worth of damage. By level 22, it is easily permaable.

 

Those gains are dramatic and easily worth the crash. Rage can essentially be thought of as freedom to slot 2 extra end SOs in every attack and still come out ahead. The resulting end reduction far outpaces the end crash. And dealing ~1.4x your normal damage for 120 seconds is worth dealing ~0.1x damage for 10 seconds - even if we pick the worst case scenario for Rage, a hypothetical sustained fight lasting over 2 minutes, over the more realistic scenario of standard encounters where you don't attack full time and can use downtime to reposition, move to the next group, gather enemies together, and so on.

 

Defense is just about the only drawback. Of course, it is a drawback because people refuse to take Hand Clap. Mobs knocked on their feet aren't attacking you.

If the game was truly balanced around SOs, Rage would have been nerfed into the ground ages ago.

[Infinitum]

On 7/20/2020 at 4:08 AM, nihilii said:

If the game was truly balanced around SOs, Rage would have been nerfed into the ground ages ago.

If you are only using SOs with rage the crash is very real and severe and much harder to work around.

 

On a set that is only brought up to speed by the existence of rage.

 

SO balancing - there isnt anything wrong with rage because SS isnt super without it.

 

Set bonuses make it easier to work around, but that is what set bonuses do, and even then you still have the 10 second crash.

 

I dunno, the whole set would need reworked to change rage because without it SS is pretty anemic.

[Bill Z Bubba]

11 hours ago, Infinitum said:

there isnt anything wrong with rage because SS isnt super without it.

Seems like the fix is right there...

[Fingernailgun]

On 7/12/2020 at 10:37 PM, Hjarki said:

Spending 1/6th of your time in "can't hold aggro" mode is a big problem for most tanks in a team setting.

You appear to be under the impression rage crashes prevent tanks from holding agro. It doesn't. It used to, back in 2004/2005, when the crash caused "only affecting self" status, but that's long long gone. Taunt, taunt auras, footstomp, handclap, etc all function just fine outside of their damage potential.

Edited July 26, 2020 by iocane

[Hjarki]

7 minutes ago, iocane said:

You appear to be under the impression rage crashes prevent tanks from holding agro. It doesn't. It used to, back in 2004/2005, when the crash caused "only affecting self" status, but that's long long gone. Taunt, taunt auras, footstomp, handclap, etc all function just fine outside of their damage potential.

Taunt/debuffs without damage don't hold threat all that well, particularly against other melee (who are often operating taunt auras of their own).

[Fingernailgun]

I've seen agro ping pong between brutes and tanks on things like GMs and AVs frequently without any rage crashing coming into the mix, but I've never witness anything leaving a tank's taunt aura to go chase some blaster (for example) unless it is knocked back. I see things ignore judgements while chasing my ice tank on MSRs that hasn't done a bit of damage, so I'm curious how you've managed to lose agro to anything other than other taunts.

 

edit: I'm thoroughly interested is seeing it in action in an environment less chaotic than incarnate raids or somesuch where fear effects are everywhere.

Edited July 26, 2020 by iocane

[Sir Myshkin]

On 7/26/2020 at 4:26 PM, Hjarki said:

Taunt/debuffs without damage don't hold threat all that well, particularly against other melee (who are often operating taunt auras of their own).

The adjustments to Gauntlet have done a pretty good job of making the damage aspect a non-concern for Tankers specifically at this point. Pre Tanker-Fix my Ice Armor could peel and hold aggro off anything (including other Tanks), post change I watched an Invulnerability Tanker yank stuff off me with Taunt (as in that actual ability) versus my casual passive collection of Chilling/Icicles and Punchvoke and only necessary (out ranged) Taunting.

 

Which, side tangent, been seeing a lot of players trying to over-tank/out-tank the "Point Tanker" lately and it is both confusing and annoying. Incidentally it has also resulted in my getting to watch a portion of those individuals end up eating floor for their efforts. 🙃

Edited July 28, 2020 by Sir Myshkin

[nihilii]

On 7/26/2020 at 11:26 PM, Hjarki said:

Taunt/debuffs without damage don't hold threat all that well, particularly against other melee (who are often operating taunt auras of their own).

Rage crash doesn't make you do no damage, it only debuffs your damage to tiny amounts. I guarantee you there's virtually no difference in dealing full damage or tiny damage when it comes to holding aggro on a character with gauntlet. On the theorycraft level the mechanics of aggro might be hard to understand, but in practice the winning formula is easy: using a gauntlet attack, be the first to deal at least 1 point of damage to an enemy, and you will keep aggro on that enemy as long as you attack regularly.

 

I have jumped into endless mobs during a Rage crash using Footstomp as an opener and have never seen aggro peeled off me unless I stopped throwing AoEs OR the teammate was making a conscious effort to grab aggro (i.e. tanker spamming taunt and attacking that target with a ST focus). Fire blasters, spines/bio scrappers, you name it. Just Footstomp alone on "regular" high levels of recharge will keep aggro nice and tight provided all targets are in range.

 

Speed trumps A LOT of other parameters when it comes to aggro. Make an effort to always be the first to engage, the results will surprise you.

[Vindicator]

[deleted]

Edited September 8, 2020 by Vindicator

[Golden Azrael]

No SS for Scrappers.

 

G'damn cheeky scrappers...

 

Tank and Brute only.

 

Azrael.

[Murcielago]

I can't believe no one wished this thread a happy birthday!

[Vindicator]

[deleted]

Edited September 8, 2020 by Vindicator

[skoryy]

Too busy War Mace-ing things.