Why don't you play on the Villain Side?

[VileTerror]

Ok, I see what you mean now, and I agree.  I still wouldn't call that "Agency" though.

 

Mortimer Kai is a great example of something which I would tweak, but for more selfish reasons.  I have a character who is FIRMLY anti-magic.  If given the opportunity, she would -destroy- the Flames of Prometheus . . . or at least lock them in a box and shoot them off in to space.  If she could.  I would have liked to see some dialogue options suggesting that path, rather than "I can haz magical power-up noaw!"  Or, as a classic trope, a villain who sees themself as the hero "Positron!  You're abusing this power!  I must stop you!"  That could be fun too.

[Lines]

3 minutes ago, VileTerror said:

Ok, I see what you mean now, and I agree.  I still wouldn't call that "Agency" though.

 

Mortimer Kai is a great example of something which I would tweak, but for more selfish reasons.  I have a character who is FIRMLY anti-magic.  If given the opportunity, she would -destroy- the Flames of Prometheus . . . or at least lock them in a box and shoot them off in to space.  If she could.  I would have liked to see some dialogue options suggesting that path, rather than "I can haz magical power-up noaw!"  Or, as a classic trope, a villain who sees themself as the hero "Positron!  You're abusing this power!  I must stop you!"  That could be fun too.

 

Totally! Having a few dialogue options that alter why a character is doing what they're doing, even if the outcome is the same, would make all the difference for me in those circumstances. Redside is totally devoid of options for villains who genuinely believe they're doing the right thing. (I think)

Edited February 22, 2020 by Lines

[Llewellyn Blackwell]

I do understand many of the issues people have with red side writing, but in general they seem to forget several factors about the game world we play in.

 

1. character level. Our character's level isn't just some game metric, it has a reflection in the game world as ones security level based on what that character is actually capable of power wise. For good and bad this is a large part of why CoH was often called even by those who loved it city of side kicks because until your max level you are just that a side kick, a lackey, at best an unaffiliated amateur trying to make a name for themselves in the shadow of living gods.

 

2. World lore and social structure. In a world with a being like recluse its not hard to see him as basically the global godfather of all would be bad guys, with maybe Crey being the closest rival controlling the vast majority of the worlds corporate entities and wealth. Hence why villains being motivated based on money rather then being glory mongers seeking infamy, is rather trite, You can never hope to be in the same wealth and global influence range as a international super corporation or a world leader also possessed by an ancient deity. One has to come up with the right concept to be a big bad on their scale that makes sense but isn't motivated by petty mortal matters. Even then such concepts are the kind you typically use a generic concept to level up the build with then doa  name change and write the bio for because if I am going to be a bad guy Im going to be the worst bad guy.

 

3, Zone and content. Ironically Ive always preferred going red side to street sweep on certain vigilante characters, it just feels more heroic. Meanwhile i tend to feel like a borderline criminal in brickston fighting crey security on what is basically their property seeing as Crey owns so much of paragon. Its one of those things were sometimes it feels more right being bad blue side and good red side.

 

4. Design. Red side and its ATs were actually designed with solo play as the focus. one of the biggest gripes about blue side at the time was needing teams for so many ATs. hence why red side ATs like doms, and ruptors are more naturally inclined to handle content solo from a low level compared to defenders and trollers who tend to be late bloomer builds when it comes to being solo GM slayer builds. Even MM the red side tank counterpart was much much easier to level up then a tank simply due to over all dps at the time of CoV launching.

 

I have 1 maxxed rogue, His name is T'Keron Valmaz and he was what I call my original rogue. Long before we had CoV and going rogue he existed as your classic anti hero blue side on live. His concept and name is drawn directly from the lore about Infernal, and is imo the perfect example of how to make a good bad guy in the game world. He has no care for wealth, nor power over the short lived mortals. Valmaz only seeks to regain his full power and reclaim his position as lord of all demonkind. T'Keron always fights for control defiant and desperate to finish his goal of for once and all ending the infernal race even at the cost of his own life and infact any sacrifice needed. Funny enough the heroic human aspect is chaotic, and willing to pay any price to see what he sees as the ultimate evil finally defeated for the sake of all existence. Valmaz is a primordial entity and all about maintaining the order of the multiverse, he is lawful in the extreme, always keeps his word and honors any pact made in full as long as the agreed upon price is willingly paid. T'Keron fights with passion and driven to do what he feels is right. Valmaz fights cooly and with focus, killing only those foolish enough to try to do him harm in this half mortal shell he now chafes under the skin of. 1 toon, 3 characters as their is also the hybrid form. One a villain one a vigilante, one a rogue.

 

Then there are my non maxxed villains, based on figures from true crime history like Bela Kiss. A serial predator of women and expert poisoner, as well as said to be a dabbler in the occult, and who was serving as a soldier in WW1 when his crimes were uncovered and he vanished from history apparently possessed of an almost supernatural sense of when the law was closing in on him and able to escape seemingly into thin air. He is driven not by wealth, not by power, but by a dark hunger as any true monster is.

 

One must keep in mind that for someone to truly accept they are evil is itself deemed a sign of mental illness. Sane people do not even when they do horrific actions see themselves in the wrong. Its a large part of what causes PTSD in soldiers who struggle to come to terms with the lives they have taken at the command of others. Because by numerous spiritual practices killing, even in self defense is no less wrong then killing in wanton murder. This goes back to some of the most ancient laws of history such as the famous eye for an eye tooth for a tooth or the price of blood gold to keep peace after a fight ended in ones death. Even now days we see heavy controversy around things like the Death Penalty because there are those that deem any life taking as an evil act.

 

Its a very divisive and complex issue why some wouldnt play bad guys, or why some play varying shades of grey rather then black and white. Ultimately imo that is why CoH has always had the best community of any mmo, because here we get a concentration fo those who take great enjoyment in embracing the fantasy of being pure of heart, always noble, and willing to selflessly sacrifice for those helpless to save themselves.Most other MMO communities reek of the mercenary me me me attitude that can curdle ones stomach into bile.

[VileTerror]

So, again; money-put-mouth:  Which Issue 6 Arc would people like to see rewritten most of all for violating the player's authority over their character's motivations and personality?  I'm happy to do a sample arc rewrite, so people can see what's on offer.  Do we have any obvious culprits who would benefit from a little sprucing up?

[DestinyPlayer]

Rather than rewriting, I would personally appreciate potential alternate routes unrelated to the other option. Perhaps something that would go in parallel with the Hearts of Darkness line, as that one seems to have the most issues with assuming the player character is a brute? Just something else to do in that level period.

 

On the other hand, that part is relatively easily skippable due to other options, so that might just be personal bias.

Edited February 22, 2020 by DestinyPlayer

[Dark Current]

22 hours ago, Doc_Scorpion said:

Strawman that fails to address the point.  Nobody is necessarily asking to be Dr. Doom, nor asking to conform to every possible imagined plot.  They're asking not to be forced in the role of lackey.  The only option you offer if for them to be forced to choose which kind of lackey they're going to be - which misses the point entirely.
 

Irrelevant.  The key takeaway is the the blueside storyline doesn't force you into a narrow and subservient role.  The writing allows for any number of possibilities even if it doesn't allow for all possibilities.

The problem here isn't some "bizarre leap in expectations", it's that there's a fundamental difference between blueside and redside story lines.

 

Doesn't every TF place you in subservient role? Positron could save the dam in 30 sec but instead he finds some lackeys looking for influence to do it for him while he stands on a pedestal.

[Troo]

On 2/21/2020 at 1:43 AM, Raught19 said:

so we can help to address it.

I would like to list the some of the qualities of redside rather than bashing the terrible suggestions from @Raught19 or the clearly ill-informed opinions some have stated.

 

I'll return to this thread an try and focus on some additional positives.

• More solo friendly
• Limited need for excessive travel
• Where brutes, corruptors, dominators, masterminds, stalkers, arachnos soldiers and arachnos widows came from
• Coop zones
• PVP zones
• Early access to some accolades

[Dazl]

I think that one of the reasons red side was more popular on live, is that it was new and shiny at the time. I played COH from launch, so when COV came around I was ready for something different. Played there a lot, but I do enjoy blue side more. You feel more like a hero blue side, than you do a villain red side.

[VileTerror]

The early-access to Accolades is a nice one, but as said in that other thread in the Suggestions board; I'd like to see -more- incentives along those lines.  Let the Villains EARN Power.  That will motivate people to evil-it-up a little.

[Leogunner]

2 hours ago, Lines said:

 

Totally! Having a few dialogue options that alter why a character is doing what they're doing, even if the outcome is the same, would make all the difference for me in those circumstances. Redside is totally devoid of options for villains who genuinely believe they're doing the right thing. (I think)

Correction: the game itself is devoid of options. There aren't many arcs that give the player various nuanced dialog options. Some exists but it's few and far between. It's not a phenomenon isolated to CoV. 

[Troo]

Rouge, vigilante, resistance, loyalist.. "Tip and Morality missions that can sway the character's alignment."

[skoryy]

4 hours ago, Dark Current said:

Doesn't every TF place you in subservient role? Positron could save the dam in 30 sec but instead he finds some lackeys looking for influence to do it for him while he stands on a pedestal.

Positron isn't taking on the entirety of Arachnos up to and including Recluse himself. There's a reason the Freedom Phalanx is guarding the portal while your task force is crossing over to wreck Neuron and Bobcat's day.

 

By level 50 blueside you're now The Guy.   By level 50 redside you're still Rocksteady and Bebop.  That's a problem.

Edited February 22, 2020 by skoryy

[Sakura Tenshi]

Honestly, I've made an effort to try to distribute my characters more evenly compared to live (one of each archetype, half villains half heroes, discounting a few 'special exceptions' such as my farmer). That said, I think biggest turnoff is a bit of a lack of teaming. Sure, you can find SF groups easily, but as an RPer, just getting together a decent redside team and all for RP running can be tricky.

 

I suppose that's also the bigger issue: as an RPer, doing villain stuff with other villain RPers can be precarious just because of a saying I had about content writing back on live: "There's a few ways to be a hero, because at the end of the day it's just important to stop disaster. But there's a million and one ways to be a villain." So, while some of my villains might be more honorable rogues who try to keep body count at a minimum, so they're not going to enjoy working with people who literally eat souls and make it a habit to feast on every single NPC they come across. On the flipside, a few of my (yet to be rolled) villains are not so compassionate, and they're going to tick off more amicable ne'er-do-wells.

[The_Warpact]

56 minutes ago, skoryy said:

 

 

By level 50 blueside you're now The Guy.   By level 50 redside you're still Rocksteady and Bebop.  That's a problem.

At the end of the patron arcs you're defeating Recluse, showing him his head, and him treating you as an equal to go forth and be your own villain. 

[Sovera]

It's grim, it's dirty, I don't like condescending NPCs talking to me like I am trash, I don't like being the bad guy, I don't like doing bad things, I don't like that a villain spends most of their time attacking other villains instead of good guys. It is also an empty zone.

 

All of these apply, but mainly I'm happier playing a super HERO. There is enough crap going in RL without feeling the need to roleplay being the cause of it.

[Nemeroff]

7 hours ago, MTeague said:

... I will say one thing that helped me get into Redside, was creating one redside nemesis / foe for each blueside character, ...

I didn't do this for all my Heroes, just the top 5-7 I played.

Controller <--> Dominator, Fire <--> Ice etc...

 

I remember the low level maps on V discouraged a lot of players I knew on Live; dirty, "depressing. H side is bright, colorful."

 

Overall the story arcs on V are better IMHO.

[Yomo Kimyata]

After I saw this post a few weeks ago, I decided to give red side a shot.  I created seven villains themed after the seven deadly sins and went to town!  It’s been fun and a lot easier and lighter than I remember.  No one is over level 20 yet, but a lot of the problems I remember from Live seem to not be an issue.

[EmmySky]

57 minutes ago, Yomo Kimyata said:

After I saw this post a few weeks ago, I decided to give red side a shot.  I created seven villains themed after the seven deadly sins and went to town!  It’s been fun and a lot easier and lighter than I remember.  No one is over level 20 yet, but a lot of the problems I remember from Live seem to not be an issue.

Same experience with my 1 villain....I am assuming I am just more chill now and I have noticed I don't read mission text like I did back when it was new.

[nightroarer]

It's an easy answer for me. I do have some redside and yellowside characters for a change of pace, but by and large, I simply prefer playing heroes.

[Crysis]

I actually think Redside content is more interesting story-wise and variety-wise than Blue Side.  But I find the entire atmosphere just kinda….murky and stifling.  It's not "dark" in a psychological manner.  I find it too cartoony for that.  But it just seems...murky.  I find myself having to hunch up closer to the monitor just to make out some details, or fiddling with my Gamma to brighten up the screen.  Annoys me.  I feel a bit manipulated, sort of like a cheesy horror flick that's using music to constantly tell me when things are about to turn blood and gore.

[Vulgaris]

For me it's just the lighting- I always feel like someone turned the gamma down to a huge magnitude on redside no matter the map it feels. I remember it being -worse- when it was new because some indoor missions I literally could not see.

[Paradox Fate]

I miss more Sinister Plots where I can gather puzzle pieces for 'The Plan' and then put this all in motion once the pieces are all in place.

 

Aside that you can rise up to be a equal to Lord Recluse, you still remain on the Rogue Isles instead of just stomp out your own base somewhere else.

I know that 'Keep your friends close, and your enemies closer.' mentality, but I do rather have some freedom when it comes to drop off the radar to establish my own seat of power.

 

Another issue is probably me trying to find decent groups to run missions with. Positron and Manticore TF's are being done by the dozen, but getting a group for Mortimer Kal SF up and running? That's some hella work.

 

Also, the enemies on Red Side seem to be more 'varied' in their types and make it harder to fight them. Arachnos is one of those that keep a main presence and their Fortunatas really can ruin someone's day with a unlucky hit. At the endgame, it's Longbow with their stacking(?) 5 million sticky and sonic grenades.

Edited March 7, 2020 by Paradox Fate

[Yomo Kimyata]

Ok, I've spent almost all of my time redside over the past two weeks.  Two observations on why it may be inferior to blue side:

 

1.  Way too vertical.  That's fine now that you can buy jet packs at lvl 1, but if I wanted to run a super speed character for concept redside, I'd quit the game.

2.  Way too many random mobs.  This is related to the verticality to some extent.  It's virtually impossible to run to a mission without aggroing a lot of mobs.  Maybe this would change as I got used to the maps.

[_NOPE_]

I played ONE villain to date on the live servers (called "Able Abel") up to level 50 just to do it once. He wasn't really a "villain" per se, but just kind of a rough guy that wanted to prove himself as "Able". My version of Kuwabara from Yuyu Hakusho. It was hard for me to stomach when the game's stories were setup in such a way that some of them don't really mince words about what exactly you're doing. And sometimes, you don't have a choice. I just don't have it in my heart to play a "bad guy", so any villain that I play can't really see themselves as a "bad guy". If I recall correctly, there was NO way to avoid a few certain storylines where you had to kill. And I'm just so against that, I just had to stop reading the text at one point. At least, with hero side they almost always said "arrest" or "defeat".

 

That's why  I don't play red side.

Edited March 12, 2020 by The Philotic Knight

[Peacemoon]

A big thing for me is the dominance of arachnos. I hate their architecture. I hate their constant presence. And I have no idea why it has to be so prevalent. When you play blue side you are not constantly surrounded by longbow in every zone. It’s just a city with villains in it...

 

For me there are other reasons but that is the main one. Grandville especially is awful.

 

Also because of the Arachnos you will always feel like a second tier villain.