Would you like to see Statesman return?

[GastlyGibus]

I'm going to echo what a lot of people have already pointed out here. Coming back from the dead is such an overused, cliché, boring trope of comic books that every "death" in a comic book loses all the impact it would normally have. Someone dying in a comic now is almost a joke because the readers know that some meta-physical super MacGuffin is just going to bring them back anyways.

Think about some of the most impactful deaths in storytelling, whether it's a book, or a movie, or anything, really. Take, for example, Boromir dying in Lord of the Rings. His death is tragic, and sad, and tears your heart out, why? Because you know he ain't coming back. There's no magic spell in the world that can resurrect him, no ancient artifact, no sacred pledge to be made. He's dead. Rest in Peace. Death is so impactful because it's meant to be permanent. There is no coming back from it. Coming back from the dead completely ruins and destroys any significance death might have on the plot. Something I truly despise about comic books is how many important characters will "die" only to be brought back a couple pages later, and it's been done so much and so often that it doesn't have any meaning anymore. "Oh, Batman died? That's fine. I'll just dump him in a Lazarus Pit and he'll be good as new!"

 

I really don't want to see City of Heroes go down that path. I'm fine with him coming back as a ghost or a spirit, or maybe some kind of vision or whatever, but that is the extent of how far I would go with it. Statesman should stay dead, not because I dislike the character or what he represents, but because it kills the entire drama of the whole situation (no pun intended).

 

What I would love to see, however, is something like what happened with Sister Psyche and Penelope Yin. Someone dies, have someone new and cool take their place. That makes it feel like the world we're living in is way more realistic, as not only do people actually die but things change and adapt around the person's death. City of Heroes especially isn't short on NPC heroes that could easily fill in the hole of Statesman. Imagine if Jim Temblor was made a member of the Phalanx, fighting a level 54 Hero with Granite Amor. That'd be pretty cool to me.

Edited March 2, 2020 by GastlyGibus

[skoryy]

Things I'd like to see before even thinking about bringing States back:

• Paragon City dealing with a post-States present.  There's a hint of it in Kallisti Wharf, it's be neat to expand on it.
• Lord Recluse dealing with a post-States present. The opportunity's there now, but is it the same without RIIICHHHAAAARRRR- er- Marcus?
• How Manticore deals with, well, everything. We're gonna have to bring Justin back from a very dark place.
• Synapse and Positron buddy cop adventures.
• Jim Temblor and Fusionette buddy cop adventures.
• Lady Grey forming her own Suicide Squad with Tyrant.

[Redlynne]

27 minutes ago, skoryy said:

How Manticore deals with, well, everything. We're gonna have to bring Justin back from a very dark place.

Why would (bat)Manticore "have to be brought back from a very dark place" ...?

 

(bat)Manticore was already something of a Vigilante.  Turn the Alignment wheel just a little bit more and he could turn Villain ... and wouldn't THAT be interesting to see!

[Solarverse]

15 minutes ago, Redlynne said:

Why would (bat)Manticore "have to be brought back from a very dark place" ...?

 

(bat)Manticore was already something of a Vigilante.  Turn the Alignment wheel just a little bit more and he could turn Villain ... and wouldn't THAT be interesting to see!

As long as Ghost Widow turns to the good side, we have a deal!  😄

[Yoru-hime]

Short answer: I disliked the way they took Statesman out, but I don't really want him back.

 

Long Answer: In general, I hated SSA1. It did feel like they were just sweeping characters into a waste-bin wrapped in melodrama and badly done cliche. The writer was so ham-fisted that they had to italicize every word related to death, just in case you'd forgotten that the point of this story was to kill off characters.

 

That said, personally I did not like Statesman. He created all the storytelling problems of a Superman-class superhero with none of the likability or modesty of Clark Kent. His removal felt needed. It cleared the way for virtually every other character to grow and fill the space.

 

On the other hand, I really didn't care for the removal of Sister Psyche. She was a humanizing influence on the otherwise incredibly tiresome not-Batman and she had a new protege she could mentor while dealing with her failure with Malaise. It felt like there was a lot more room to do interesting things there than kill her just off so we could eventually watch Manticore implode. 

 

The only way I'd be interested to see Statesman come back would be with a fraction of his old power. It'd be interesting to see him adjust to not being an unstoppable force of nature/law unto himself.

[Snarky]

18 minutes ago, Redlynne said:

Why would (bat)Manticore "have to be brought back from a very dark place" ...?

 

(bat)Manticore was already something of a Vigilante.  Turn the Alignment wheel just a little bit more and he could turn Villain ... and wouldn't THAT be interesting to see!

Fanatics and TRUE believers are the best at villainry. Because what they do they believe is necessary to further the cause

 

 Burn babies?  Well its the only way to make sure everything works out!   Hmmm. Okay, fire up the Roastmaster 5000

 

a regular criminal villain is a little boring in comparison. Not Robin Hood but just robbin’ da hood.  They draw the line at anything that doesnt pull in cash and a lot of them have boundaries on crimes they do based on experience, risk/reward, and some personal ethos and motivations

[skoryy]

27 minutes ago, Redlynne said:

Why would (bat)Manticore "have to be brought back from a very dark place" ...?

 

(bat)Manticore was already something of a Vigilante.  Turn the Alignment wheel just a little bit more and he could turn Villain ... and wouldn't THAT be interesting to see!

Manti as a nihilist bad guy, yeah, no.  Paragon needs stately Justin Manor.  Also bringing Manti back from the brink would make for a good optimistic story when everything else is going to heck.

Edited March 2, 2020 by skoryy

[Coyote]

Can we bring back Statesman as a zombie? Maybe Aurora knows some magical ritual.... 😛
He can be Hero 1's sidekick follower after that.

[GastlyGibus]

1 hour ago, skoryy said:

Things I'd like to see before even thinking about bringing States back:

• Paragon City dealing with a post-States present.  There's a hint of it in Kallisti Wharf, it's be neat to expand on it.
• Lord Recluse dealing with a post-States present. The opportunity's there now, but is it the same without RIIICHHHAAAARRRR- er- Marcus?
• How Manticore deals with, well, everything. We're gonna have to bring Justin back from a very dark place.
• Synapse and Positron buddy cop adventures.
• Jim Temblor and Fusionette buddy cop adventures.
• Lady Grey forming her own Suicide Squad with Tyrant.

This, please. Have Statesman's death actually lead to new story developments. Maybe Manti goes on a Vigilante crusade to eradicate evil and we have to go stop him. Maybe Recluse takes a moment and goes "Huh, my ex-best friend is legitimately dead..." and we either take advantage of the opportunity or maybe reflect on things. Have the story GO SOMEWHERE instead of just saying "Well, States is dead, Ms. Liberty is leading his Task Force, and nothing else changes with the world."

[Caulderone]

On 3/1/2020 at 10:38 AM, Bill Z Bubba said:

I find that it must be noted that not all of us, possibly even most of us, valued Statesman the way you do. I always found him written to be a pompous and short-sighted fool. So, his death had zero impact on me. His return is of no importance to me.

This.

[Lazarillo]

"Return" is probably not the right word.

I'd like to see his removal undone.  It didn't really add much to the setting except confusion over continuity, and it took out some of the more "epic" moments of the game.

 

I suspect that even as HC moves to slowly-but-surely add new story content to the game (like they already did with some of the new arcs) we won't see won't see any real advancement of "canon", as, even assuming NCSoft negotiates in good faith (I still have my doubts), they'll want to hold on to the characters that are considered their "intellectual property".  So the idea of moving the "canon" forward from the rather messy state it was in as of i24 is not going to be fixable.  Better, then, to revert it just a touch, IMO.

[Shred Monkey]

If it means a new endgame Task Force he could be brought back by rainbow fairies and mousekin wizards as far as I care.  More content is great. The plot line it has is of little significance to me.

[Mister Mass]

Bring Statesman back from the dead?  Big NO!  Because: #1 - comic book death is already cheap enough, let's not cheapen it any more; & #2 - Statesman was a problematic character who is better off dead.

 

Death is cheap in comic books, & has only become cheaper in the past 50 years.  There was a time when it wasn't so.  When the Doom Patrol sacrificed themselves to save a small town from their enemies in the final issue of their title in the 60's, their sacrifice meant something & enshrined them as true heroes.  When Captain Marvel (Mar-Vell) died of cancer, it was a bittersweet reflection on facing the inevitability of the end, something we must all face.  When Jean Grey opted to do down fighting as Marvel Girl in order to atone for the billions she had killed as Dark Phoenix & avert the possibility that she would ever go down that dark path again, that was stunning surprise.  When Supergirl & The Flash (Barry Allen) died in the Crisis, it was a sobering statement about just how high the stakes had become.

 

But the success of the Dark Phoenix storyline & the Crisis on Infinite Earths led to a generation of writers going back to this well again & again, as if killing off characters was the only way to have an impact.  And worse, many of these deaths were nothing more than publicity stunts.  The Death of Superman drew attention from the mainstream media, but after a few short months, Superman was shown not be dead (just "mostly dead") & returned to his role as the centerpiece of the DC Universe - which no real comicbook reader ever truly doubted would be the result.  And death after comicbook death was reversed.  Only the pink-skinned Kree Mar-Vell has shown the good sense to just stay dead, having passed his legacy on to several other, perhaps more interesting, characters.  For too many writers, death was a crutch, as it was seemingly the only tool they had in their arsenal to generate emotional impact.  A lot of characters with undeveloped potential were sacrificed on the altar of drama for the sake of drama, & the superhero funeral quickly became a cliche.

 

And death after senseless death was followed by resurrection after incomprehensible resurrection.  Do we really need to perpetuate that comicbook cycle here in the game as well?  Especially with Statesman?

 

Statesman was always a problematic character in the game.  He was presented as an iconic hero, although none of us had ever seen him do anything that merited that status in game.  We were told he was just that awesome, but it was just hearsay to us.  As players, we were just doing his dirty work or even rescuing him from his enemies.  Statesman came across as pale imitation of Superman, just as Manticore came across as a weaksauce Batman with arrows instead of a utlity belt.  And certainly the character was overexposed in game - we meet his dimensional & time-crossed duplicates again & again, which many comicbooks fans resent about Superman in the DC Universe.  Writing for an iconic hero in the modern age is difficult, & too often States came across as a jerk, rather than a noble hero.  And the lore undercut Statesman's supposed nobility, as we are told that he was a petty crook who stumbled into great power.  The character was supposedly based off of one that Jack Emmert played in PnP, which may explain the tension - as the original character wasn't likely intended to be an iconic hero, but rather a somewhat cynical exploration of one.  So forcing Statesman into the Superman mold may have always been a bad fit.  And Jack using Statesman as his board avatar didn't help, given Jack's perceived tendency to dismiss player concerns as irrelevant in "his" game.

 

Anyway, I am happy to move on in the game & explore what the world is like in the post-Statesman world, as other characters step up to carry the load.  I would be thrilled to see Ms. Liberty step out of the shadow of her grandfather  & really be developed as a character.  And as someone else posted earlier in this thread - if we need a more direct replacement of the iconic hero role in the game, a de-Riktified Hero One is a much better choice.  He fits the Cape archetype better than Statesman, IMNSHO. 🙂

[Sakura Tenshi]

On 3/1/2020 at 8:36 AM, Arnabas said:

Well, he was supposed to sort-of come back... Tyrant was going to reform and take up the name Statesman.

I don't think he was ever a "fan favourite" though. From what I remember at the time, the majority of people thought he was a dick.

 

 

Personally, I thought this was the dumbest idea the live devs could have ever had. Going Rogue content time and time again hammered home that even if you could sympathize with Tyrant, he made even Reichsman look nice by comparison. Dude freaking dropped a nuke on the players (no big deal, honestly) and his own fleeing citizens after how long he spent ranting about how their safety was his priority to get a quick power boost by feeding off their souls. Not to mention all the leadership he surrounded himself with during his reign, and basically, Praetorians started the damn war because Primal Earth which Tyrant knew would have angered his Hamidon.

 

As for me: I don't want Statesman to be brought back into present, but I would like to see him brought back into the Recluse SF because the Freedom Phalanx are literally down one from their old strength and Penelope Yin's NPC-only brand of psionic melee doesn't necessarily make up for it when she replaced sister psyche. So the FP have no tank or heavy hitter and decaying the challenge of the Recluse SF. Plus, it's made clear the Recluse SF is not necessarily present time stuff.

 

Now if we were rebooting the whole storyline/lore of the game, yes, I'd like to see Statesman back, I'd like to see the launch heroes and so forth written by writers who have some God given common sense when they write characters. But that's a massively different story.

[skoryy]

Tyrant as Statestwo: Not really buying it.

 

Tyrant realizing his guiding philosophy led to apocalypse, thinking maybe States had better ideas, and slowly growing into becoming the Atoner while still being himself: That I would like to buy.

[Sakura Tenshi]

Complete side note, I think if I were made lead writer or something for a reboot of the City of storyline, I think how i'd handle Statesman is go the All-Might route: in the public's eye, he's still the same iconic hero as ever, but he's secretly slowly getting weaker and a life-time of throwing himself headlong into danger has begun to take it's toll. He lives on borrowed time and only hopes to find a worthy successor in heroes he guides as a recurring contact and generally do as much good as he can for all he can, and maybe realize a hero doesn't need powers, get in a cool last last fight with Recluse or some other major archvillain with the remaining slivers of Incarnate energy he has. Top off his contact stuff with him doing things like giving you temp powers or usually make sure you get backup of some kind to "bribe affection out of the players".

 

Spoiler

And for his final arc, you have to help rescue him and take down a fairly basic street gang, you find his years have been rapidly catching up to him with the last of his incarnate power gone. At the end you play a personal mission as him, the objective is just walking home in a safer paragon thanks to the player characters and pass away peacefully in a chair. (Mission objective: sit down and rest for a moment)

 

[Marine X]

Statesman return, a conditional maybe, as in if they found a way to do it, that it was Statesman, but not necessarily Marcus Cole. Doesn't it seem very strange that he has been married multiple times to Superpowered Women and only Produced Daughters. What if he or one of those daughters had a son, a genuine heir that the Well would accept. This heir may even be someone likable and different from Marcus Cole, with Totally different Powers and yes, perhaps even a different costume and name.....

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

ALTERED   STATESMAN

 

 

 

I know, I just couldn't help myself. If they come up with a great story to bring Statesman back, have at it, if it's just going to be a rehash, why?

 

Edited March 2, 2020 by Marine X

[VileTerror]

Good point, tidge.  Darrin's not dead, but his brain is pretty well baked.

There's some potential there for a storyline which implies that he's back on his feet and pulling some strings, only for the mid-point twist to be:  Nope.  He really is in a permanent vegetative state, and whoever the REAL mastermind is behind the curtail is merely using Darrin's clout to further their aims and cast off suspicions from themself.

[Bossk_Hogg]

No, I don't care to see Jack Emmert's Marty Stu character brought back. 

[Vanden]

I just want him back in the LRSF, I don't care one way or the other about him staying dead.

[Redlynne]

2 hours ago, Vanden said:

I just want him back in the LRSF, I don't care one way or the other about him staying dead.

Heh.

 

You can have him back in the LRSF, but it's the PCs that kill him, not Darrin Wade ...

[johua]

Honestly, I'd prefer it if they left Statesman dead and didn't do the Tyrant becomes the new Statesman thing.

One of the things I really liked about the later stages of the game's life was the game's shift away from players essentially being minor/b-list heroes and toward players being more important to the game's narrative. Now, whether or not they did it correctly is up to opinion, but I like that they started to shift away from "The Freedom Phalanx are the main guys."

And while it's been a while since I did the arc, the SSA that was supposed to come with i24 made it seem like the Phalanx is sort of on its way out now that Statesman is gone. At least, without the context of Tyrant becoming the next Statesman and rallying them.

Personally, I say we should just close the book and move on.

[Zenex]

I'd like to bring states back for nostalgia as he was always there when the game was still live, at least for HIS TF and the pre death stuff. 

 

I wouldn't mind bringing him back in general via some ouroboros arc because I felt the who will die arc was just a fancy way to kill off the old characters to get them out of the way and wasn't very fond of that tbh.  Statesman and Sister died for no reason other than to just get rid of them imo, and to some low level contact no one cared about too not even lord recluse or someone cool.

[Generator]

I'd much rather see the plot point they'd had planned move forward (Redemption of Tyrant and he becomes the new Statesman).  No need to indulge in one of comic-book writing's worst problems (the zero-stakes death that last for less time than a sprained ankle).

[The Bobby Llama]

16 minutes ago, RialVestro said:

There was suppose to be a redemption of Tyrant where he becomes the new Statesman? Doesn't that defeat the purpose of having an Evil Statesman if he's not even evil anymore... unless they were also going to makes Reichman the new Tyrant... I mean technically there were TWO evil Marcus Coles... Tyrant from Preatoria and Reichman from... well basically the Nazi universe where Germany won WWII and Marcus Cole is a Nazi.

Not exactly redemption.  By my understanding of what the original devs have said, it would have gone like this:

1. Earth is losing badly against Battalion, people are losing hope.
2. Vanguard props up Tyrant as Statesman brought back to life.  I expect he would likely be coerced or railroaded into it somehow.  At the very least, Vanguard would have some way of keeping a leash on him. (If or how Vanguard keeps Tyrant in check is entirely speculative on my part.)  But Vanguard's role would be a big secret that wouldn't be revealed to either the player or Primal Earth until later.
3. With a new Statesman to rally around, everyone comes together and we beat Battalion.  Yay!
4. The masquerade ends somehow.  Likely with Tyrant doing the unmasking himself, with a mic drop about how Primal Earth's people had it within themselves to win the war all along.
5. Ms. Liberty now hates Lady Grey for trying to replace her grandfather with a mass-murdering impostor.

 

Edit: Cites

Edited March 3, 2020 by The Bobby Llama