Difficulty in CoH: Community Discussion

[Galaxy Brain]

32 minutes ago, jubakumbi said:

It can be as easy as just not patching that Psi hole your set has, or not adding in as much defense with IOs, or making sure the character can still run out of endurance if not played well.

There are a ton of ways to still have a flaw, IMO.

 

I can agree overuse of direct 'kryptonite' is often not fun, but that is not the same thing, IME.

You could do that, but given that the option to avoid those things are there and accessible leads to keeping those shortcomings being intentionally nerfing yourself. If this was years ago and IOs that can easily patch these things were not accessible that's one thing, but by naturally playing you can gather these resources in HC.

[Ruin Mage]

I think the game is just right for the number of facts:

• It has numerically been min-maxed from top to bottom. People have figured out what does what and how much it does.
• Development on content is at a stand still. I mean new actual content that would shift how hard/easy the game is. New enemies, new enemy types, new AI.'
• The Incarnate System gives level 50s a grand amount of power, but isnt end all be all. That is enhancement's play field. This feeds into point 1.
• It's an old game that the devs were legit making easy as time went on.

 

[Targren]

I don't know if "too hard" is quite the right description, but the first 10-20 levels are such a slog, it almost feels necessary to join DFB runs rather than play the content.

[Jackanapesink]

I think the game is a perfect balance up until about level 30, where a new player--or an oldschool returning player--is easily overwhelmed by the higher level players, and can sometimes feel like a missing cog.  Then, once you hit 50, and you think you got it figured out, you have to learn a whole new game system...

 

And even in incarnate play, sometimes, a team can be so overpowering, the play itself is boring...I personally prefer levelling down sometimes, just for the interaction and fun.

 

I think I skipped a lot of content just whizzing through the levels, without even thinking...makes you wonder if content achievement shouldn't also be part of levelling up, and not just XP...would make the game more rewarding...

[Heraclea]

13 hours ago, Lines said:

That's called dodging.

Well, sometimes.  The BAF rings don't have anything to do with dodging.  They seem mostly to punish tankers for trying to hold aggro on the AVs.

 

More "You can't play right now", in other words. 

Edited March 30, 2020 by Heraclea

[MunkiLord]

14 hours ago, Redlynne said:

I'm of the opinion that while Incarnate stuff is "definitely A Thing™" in terms of welcoming Power Creep Tsunami ... the effects of Incarnate Slotting really ought to be something "reserved" for specific zones of the game ... such as:

• The Hive/The Abyss
• The Rikti War Zone
• The Storm Palace
• "New" Dark Astoria
• Ouroboros Specific Stories/Missions (such as the Alpha attunement arc and so on)
• Incarnate Trials
• Task Force Missions/Strike Force Missions

Everywhere else in the open/shared world, Incarnate Slot effects should (I feel) be suppressed.  The reason for that decision is that so much of that pre-Incarnate legacy content was never designed with Incarnate power levels in mind.  LIMITING where Incarnate Slots can be "relevant" to what amounts to End Game Content ... such as:

• The Statesman/Ms Liberty Task Force
• The Lord Recluse Strike Force
• The Imperius Task Force
• The Lady Grey Task Force
• The Diabolique Task Force
• The Justin Augustine Task Force
• The Faathim the Kind Task Force

... would help "rebalance" the sense of where the End Game IS and how "relevant" Incarnate slots are to the rest of the game experience.  That way, Incarnate Slots are an End Game Add-on for End Game Content ... rather than being something that absolutely trivializes practically ANY content that is Level 47+ (of which there is quite a lot!).

 

If Incarnate Slotting became more of a "sometimes" factor, I'm thinking it would improve the overall health and diversity of the game as a whole.

As is, with Incarnate Slotting being an "always on" factor at Levels 47+ it merely succeeds in trivializing what would otherwise be compelling/challenging content that wasn't designed to account for Incarnate Slots and Level Shifting.

 

13 hours ago, Troo said:

What to do?

 

I agree with the post above from @Redlynne with caveats.

• Alpha slot could function similarly to purple sets & bonuses, and apply to characters for lower content.
• Judgement, Interface, Lore, Destiny, Hybrid. Genesis, ect should not apply to level 49 content and below.
• With the exception being the Flashback system where it could be optional.

Busybodies wanting to nerf everyone and ruin people’s fun. 

[Greycat]

Mmm.

 

I'm going to admit part of my bias towards "too easy" is from having played it since I3. There's little that surprises me. Most of the "hard" is more... *annoying* than actually hard, like the Land of Endless Ambushes.

 

That said, there's been incredible power creep in the game. IOs are to blame, in part, for taking the game from "You can perma this with a Kinetic character's help, and defense? Well, thank your FF defender" to "Meh, my blaster's at the defense and damage caps when I'm in walk." And yes, higher level, to the way Incarnates were handled - I would've loved to see Alpha be the only thing at full strength through all content, everything else be available but weaker in normal content. Instead, ITF's gone from being "OK, rommy's going to be a hard fight, and the ambushes - we'll have to stick together" to "Who has 10 minutes to run an ITF? Eh, I have 15, I'll just solo it."

 

For that matter - and I've said this before, too, and know I'm in a minority - I think T9s should still have a crash (but should be strong enough to be worth taking in return, just require assessing a situation before using.) And that everything from Hasten to Domination shouldn't be perma-able without outside help.

 

All of those changes, to me, have made the game trivially easy. Yes, with "a little investment," but it's not that much, really - mostly a case of being willing to learn. For my part, I don't really bother in most cases. Yes, eventually I'll be IO'd out, might even have some purples, but I don't bother optimizing things, I take what looks interesting. I don't care if I'm not running +4X8 - I don't generally find that interesting. Right now, for me, the game's an escape and a RP avenue. I find creating *characters* and stories interesting. The rest of the game, at this point, I just take however it is.

[golstat2003]

The difficulty in the game is just fine. I'd be fine with them add an OPTIONAL new difficulty option for those that wanted that. Notice the word OPTIONAL.

[Heraclea]

1 minute ago, Greycat said:

Right now, for me, the game's an escape and a RP avenue. I find creating *characters* and stories interesting. The rest of the game, at this point, I just take however it is.

For me, this game is a palette with which I can create characters and superhero concepts, and with some time and effort make them mighty enough to overcome all reasonable obstacles.

 

This is why I find the constant refrain that 'the game is too easy', and the resulting nerfherding is a threat to the value I find in the game.  I have characters that could handle +4/8 spawns solo easily.  The rad/electric brute could handle that from Malta and Carnies.   But that tends to bore me as well; one spawn takes too much time. 

 

I love CoH because it is a relaxing and creative pastime.  The encounters don't generally send players to Discord or Ventrilo (when I played those kinds of crap games, it was Ventrilo) to do the catherding necessary to complete badly designed encounters in elitist and unpleasant MMOs.  This game does not need gear scores, threat meters, dps meters, healing meters, or boss prompt mods, or any of the other junk that turned team content in those other MMOs into a second job and a joyless chore.  I like the game even better now because Barrier Core Epiphany is available on the Ms. Liberty task force.   Now the only inspirations I have to hoard are EoEs and Ambrosias. 

[Solarverse]

I have made my opinion very clear on this subject multiple times throughout these forums. To avoid possible argument, I will leave it at that and speak with my vote.

 

Edit: Edited a brain fart.

Edited March 30, 2020 by Solarverse

[Snarky]

This question makes me shake my head.  I have played the game a few … a long time.

 

What is the reason for this question?

 

Okay.  You want my opinion.  It is a great game.  It is a game for creating.... (can I get a long whipped cream drum roll here?  ….wait for it.....) SUPER POWERED BEINGS.

 

So.  We can create super powered beings.  Success.

 

I created a Redside only Dom today and was kissing floor and strategizing how to level.  A friend from the SG farmed a few of us  made 11-33 in there.  It is still going to be hard to run 33-50, but with some effort I will get there.  then I can kiss the ground in Incarnate Trials!  Woot.  

 

If I had made the same Dom Goldside I would be spending a half hour prepping before each mission with misc buffs, mailing myself inspirations and gearing up like WW3 was about to land on my head.

 

Or I can take a monstrously evil concept like a creature from another nether dimension, slap on Dark/Invul or Dark/Will on a Brute and OWN all the story arcs I want to run solo.  zero prep before each mission.  On Single Origin Enhancers.  Okay, at low levels I would need blue inspirations on the Invul.

 

You can make a LOT of costumes for a LOT of concepts and play a LOT of content a LOT of different ways.  Did I mention the Homecoming Team has given us back a game that gives a LOT more than most MMORPGs?

 

Is it too easy?  Yes.  Is it just right?  Yes.  Is it too hard?  Yes!!!  Because it can be any of those things.

 

If you only play an uber build someone else designed for you and someone else farmed you the levels for and someone else instructs you where to stand in the incarnate trial it might seem like an easy and boring game.  But then you're a schmuck.  Okay, I said it.  If you don't like the game the way it is because it's "too easy" you 1) haven't played the game outside of AE and OURO Incarnate trials 2) Have no concept of how you can have a ton of fun on a Brute running with SOs for 40 levels.  

 

So, please.  Downloas a build off the boards to MIDs, go to the AH to get enhancers other peeps have crafted, With money you farmed in 1 room in AE. (in an AE mission another player wrote)  After someone else farmed you to 50.  And complain about it being too easy.

 

Seriously.  Why is this question being asked?

 

 

 

 

 

[MTeague]

19 hours ago, nihilii said:

"I have another opinion" - rewards should be buffed on harder content so people don't stick to easy content past the point they don't need to.

My only caveat to this, is that if you're using custom-tailored mobs that can only do one type of damage and you have built your entire character around being near-immune to that kind of damage.... that should NOT be counted as "harder content".  Not even if the dfficulty setting is +4x8.

[Galaxy Brain]

24 minutes ago, MunkiLord said:

 

Busybodies wanting to nerf everyone and ruin people’s fun. 

So, we should buff everything instead? What about those two poster's fun?

[Crater Kate]

IMO, this game is definitely easy. But there's a difference between "easy" and "too easy" - "easy" is not a criticism.

 

I like that CoH isn't very difficult. It means even a fairly casual fan gets to live out the power fantasy of being a Big Bad Hero (or a Big... Good... Villain?). It's just fun to kick ass as a super, and not necessarily be priced into doing so on an 8 person team. Plus, there are a lot of the Old Guard who don't have as much disposable time these days as some of the kids younglings zoomers whippersnappers might have - being casual keeps the audience really broad, and I dig that.

 

Yah, higher end/incarnate content could probably be looked at. But I think that's just a subsection of the difficulty curve.

 

 

[MunkiLord]

1 hour ago, Galaxy Brain said:

So, we should buff everything instead? What about those two poster's fun?

My initial comment says everything that needs to be said on the matter. I won’t be explaining further. 

Edited March 30, 2020 by MunkiLord

[eiynp]

it's not even really a matter of difficulty; the game was always easy. It's that at this point incarnate powers render everything in non-incarnate content basically irrelevant. You can run something like the LGTF and every pack of mobs just explodes because somebody always has a judgment power ready. There's little need for control or tanks and barely much need for buffs, even when the mobs are turned up.

 

This was actually becoming a problem on the live game near the end as well, but homecoming has made getting incarnate powers so easy that any character that plays for more than about 30 minutes at 50 has a T3 judgment power.

 

imo incarnate powers (with the exception of perhaps the alpha slot) should be restricted to actual incarnate content; I find I rarely even want to play level 50 characters because it's all so boring and samey.

[Lines]

I get the "play your way" argument, and I really do. I have heaps of restrictions on the way I play to make it suited for me. But it really does only take one ubermunchkin butthole to ruin the fun.

 

I've seen a lot of ITFs advertised as "kill most" or "kill all", which is way more my speed. But both times I've joined one with that disclaimer fairly recently, some brute still charged ahead, straight up the mountain, crystal to crystal, straight to Romi. It really sucks.

 

I just won't do ITFs now, even with the best intention to take it at my preference. They're too sad.

[Elmyder]

I personally think it would be a really bad idea to restrict the use of incarnate powers in the game. It would have a drastic impact on the way I play the game, for example, and not a good one. If you want to play old content without incarnate powers, all you need to do is find a few people who feel the same and you can do it. You don't need to restrict everyone else's ability to play the game the way they like to do that. Other things you can do to make old content more difficult with like minded people: Purposely sub-optimize your build. Set the tf to have enemies buffed or players debuffed. And so forth. In general, I don't think we should be restricting any existing freedoms regarding difficulty. If we decide the game should be harder, then that should be achieved by introducing new, harder content, or at the very least by expanding optional difficulty settings.

 

With that said, I would really, really love to see new, harder content. I'm not sure how likely we are to see any significant new content in the future. But if we do, I hope that it will involve a lot more unique combat mechanics to increase difficulty. The unique mechanics of many itrial bosses is a good example of the kind of things I'm talking about (Pendragon's absorb shield, Tyrant's crackle, Maelstrom's marking you for death, etc). Other things that can be done: Create enemy groups that debuff players more often, to work against the huge amount of buffs that a team or league of incarnates brings to the table. Create bosses with more max hp/regen/resists so that fights will last longer (kind of like Marauder on a Lambda badge run). These are examples of ways to create optional content to challenge those of us who enjoy endgame and min-maxing without upsetting the way we currently play old content.

[SmokinIndo]

If I solo with the group size set to x8, I can always get a good power rotation in with every mob. Every buff, debuff, and heal I have goes into making sure I survive and the enemy does not. Solo play is very satisfying.

 

Playing with a team is a different story. Because I can solo mobs at x8, any additional help means that I don't need to use a full power rotation. I can get by on missing a debuff or forgetting to toggle my aura. The more people join the team, the less reliant that I and my teammates are on my abilities. It gets to a point where I don't have to use my secondary power set because nobody is taking damage and enemies are getting deleted. It makes any powerset not designed for max dps utterly trivial.

 

There needs to be an enhanced difficulty for group play to keep the enjoyment going.

[Sovera]

I've said, but I'll say it again. CoH is PoE, MMO version. The fact we do not walk into a TF and every mob is an EB shows this. We are meant to walk in and do a barrage of AoEs and cleanse a pack in seconds.

 

The only thing the game needs is more difficulty options that are rewardings.

 

I honestly want a 'boss only' spawn option where every mob is a boss and the bosses turn into EBs.

[Blastit]

44 minutes ago, SmokinIndo said:

If I solo with the group size set to x8, I can always get a good power rotation in with every mob. Every buff, debuff, and heal I have goes into making sure I survive and the enemy does not. Solo play is very satisfying.

 

Playing with a team is a different story. Because I can solo mobs at x8, any additional help means that I don't need to use a full power rotation. I can get by on missing a debuff or forgetting to toggle my aura. The more people join the team, the less reliant that I and my teammates are on my abilities. It gets to a point where I don't have to use my secondary power set because nobody is taking damage and enemies are getting deleted. It makes any powerset not designed for max dps utterly trivial.

 

There needs to be an enhanced difficulty for group play to keep the enjoyment going.

This is the real concern with power level. If the only thing that matters in a team is how much damage you do, then the ATs that focus on crowd control, buffs, debuffs and aggro are going to be worse than the ones that just fight stuff. A good Controller is then one that can put out a lot of damage instead of one that can put out crowd control. That would be a real shame because the support ATs are fairly unique and do stuff that is rare to find in other games to say the least.

[Peacemoon]

7 hours ago, golstat2003 said:

The difficulty in the game is just fine. I'd be fine with them add an OPTIONAL new difficulty option for those that wanted that. Notice the word OPTIONAL.

Yep that’s why my main suggestion is using the challenge settings for TFs to up the difficulty for more rewards. It keeps the base game the same but allows people to challenge themselves. 
 

You can theoretically already do this, but with no extra rewards or even badges I’d have a hard time convincing anyone to do so!

 

Then it would just be a case of developing different preset modes for different reward multipliers. Some ideas would be:

i) No enhancement bonuses. No set bonuses or procs or unique. Let’s do this the old school way!

ii) Buffed enemies (like in Ouroboros). I don’t know how buffed this makes them from a numbers point or view, but it would be fun fighting ‘elite’ versions of regular mobs. We’re not just fighting regular clockwork you find in the Atlas Park car park, but the royal guard! 
iii) Debuffed players (again like in Ouroboros). This one sounds the least fun to me, but the best super hero stories have our heroes overcome their worst enemies whilst suffering from some ‘debuffed state’. So this could mimic that. Something like the heroes have been poisoned by the main story AV.

iv) Constant ambushes - who doesn’t like getting a constant ambush attacking the rear guard of the TF? (Probably not doable with current tech - the other options have Ouroboros equivalents that could easily be ported in).

 

Maybe you could tick each box for multiplied rewards (E.g. x1.5 merits rewards). And tick extra boxes for a bigger multiplier. 

 

SO...

Who wants to join me for an old school run, fighting the AVs elite mobs and while overcoming some awful poisoned state?! Who is heroic enough? 

Edited March 30, 2020 by Peacemoon

[Galaxy Brain]

The comment about people being able to solo max difficulty and then teaming is one that does concern me. At that point players can inadvertently encroach on the fun of others by denying them opportunity to contribute as they normally would.

 

However, a good thing I've found with this is when the power level allows you to have teams split up scooby doo style in a mission.  The full team of 8 sticking together is a force to reckon with in most content, but if the team has to split up for whatever reason it becomes a lot more strategic. Theres a glowy guarded by enemies that see through stealth, and a boss fight at different sides of the map. They have to be dealt with within a similar time of each other / there is a strict time limit on the mission / some other factor that makes sticking together nigh impossible. More things like that would be fun and help curb some of the steamroll.

[Snarky]

1 minute ago, Galaxy Brain said:

The comment about people being able to solo max difficulty and then teaming is one that does concern me. At that point players can inadvertently encroach on the fun of others by denying them opportunity to contribute as they normally would.

 

However, a good thing I've found with this is when the power level allows you to have teams split up scooby doo style in a mission.  The full team of 8 sticking together is a force to reckon with in most content, but if the team has to split up for whatever reason it becomes a lot more strategic. Theres a glowy guarded by enemies that see through stealth, and a boss fight at different sides of the map. They have to be dealt with within a similar time of each other / there is a strict time limit on the mission / some other factor that makes sticking together nigh impossible. More things like that would be fun and help curb some of the steamroll.

So you never did the Trial in the Hollows "Cavern of Transcendance" where you had to click 8 glowies at the exact same time.  (thankfully the Homecoming team changed that) Because that was both boring and annoying.  But that is what you want?

[Peacemoon]

4 minutes ago, Snarky said:

So you never did the Trial in the Hollows "Cavern of Transcendance" where you had to click 8 glowies at the exact same time.  (thankfully the Homecoming team changed that) Because that was both boring and annoying.  But that is what you want?

A lot of that was because the ingame map was disabled, otherwise it would have been much easier to coordinate. I have seen what Galaxy describe happen randomly in good teams, whereby we just don’t stick together because we don’t need to. It would be difficult to build this into the game though. With the ‘click the clickies at the same time’ groups still did the mission as one team, and just split up once all the mobs were dead.