Super Strength on Scrappers

[MisterMittens]

A modified version of super strength for scrappers would be fantastic. SS is mostly single target which fits scrappers more than tank ATs. To add to that, the rage mechanic fits scrappers already since they scrappers risk taking dealing more damage over survivability. Who needs health if the enemies are dead? To sum it up, I think Super Strength fits the scrapper Archetype very well and with proper tweaking wouldn't be over powered even after crits are factored in.

 

 

Rage should allow the set to deal more damage than other powers on average but at the price of vulnerability and no damage for 10 seconds. It's a longer lasting, more powerful build up with downsides for 10 seconds. The damage increase for rage might need to be tuned to not be over the top compared to other scrapper powersets but I think it would be very fitting and would be a lot of fun. There's nothing more satisfying than landing a massive knockout punch and finishing off an enemy, a crit chance would only serve to improve that feeling even more.

 

When the possibility of a super strength scrapper is compared to TW/Bio on scrappers, it probably wouldn't be too overpowered especially if it was tuned to fit scrappers.

 

I've heard some argue that SS fits tankers better because in most media SS and some form of damage resistance is a package deal but I disagree. There's no reason why there couldn't be a glass cannon super strength hero, someone who can take a lot of punishment but still is more susceptible to becoming overwhelmed than someone like superman woud. A character like All Might would be a good example of a character that would be more fitting as a super strength scrapper than a tank. He's very mortal and doesn't have a ton of damage mitigation, but he's capable of dealing massive damage.

 

I would love to finally be able to play a super strength scrapper like I've always wanted to. I think it's definitely worth a shot. What do you guys think?

[Zeraphia]

I actually agree with you at this point, however, I'd be very cautious with this one. Rage could possibly take Scrappers into unprecedented levels of damaging territory and honestly the "crash" is as bad as people make it seem. I think thematically there are lots of reasons and concepts to pick SS for Scrappers, particularly those wishing for a sort of "Spiderman" character, he has super strength, and he is very durable, but not quite the "Tanker" of Superman. I think it is a perfectly reasonable request, though you may see Rage turned into something very different, right now as it is, Rage is being looked at for rebalancing across all ATs for its crash. I do think SS for Scrappers is something on their radar actually, but expect it to come about after the Homecoming team has decided what to do with Rage in its current form. 

 

TL;DR it is fully welcomed for me, but will most likely need rebalancing and shouldn't be expected for porting until they figure out the best approach to Rage.

[Saiyajinzoningen]

This has been heavily requested since olden days of yore. Fire scrappers already out damage fire brutes by a small margin. Giving them rage +crits would be a recipe for a power creeping FOTM city of SS scrappers. 

 

I.m not against variety but where does this end? Imagine stalkers with titan weapons. I don't mean to sound like a curmudgeon, but i like the fact that some power sets are limited to certain archetypes. While many see it as stifling. i see it as encouragement to step outside your comfort zone and make something that isn't a brute.

[MisterMittens]

32 minutes ago, Saiyajinzoningen said:

This has been heavily requested since olden days of yore. Fire scrappers already out damage fire brutes by a small margin. Giving them rage +crits would be a recipe for a power creeping FOTM city of SS scrappers. 

 

I.m not against variety but where does this end? Imagine stalkers with titan weapons. I don't mean to sound like a curmudgeon, but i like the fact that some power sets are limited to certain archetypes. While many see it as stifling. i see it as encouragement to step outside your comfort zone and make something that isn't a brute.

I agree that rage in its current form could be very overpowered along with crits, but if it's tweaked to factor in crits, I think it would work very well with the theme and gameplay of a scrapper. That's different than titan weapons on a scrapper because titan weapons is the opposite of sneaky and goes against everything the stalker is supposed to be.

 

I do understand where you're coming from with moving powers to different ATs but it would probably be less work than making a whole new AT since it would just beel tweaking numbers. 

 

Rage in its current form is already more powerful than buildup due to the crash, however tankers don't have crits and deal less damage anyway. It would be sad to have rage full on replaced with buildup but if balancing rage for scrappers is too hard that could be an option. The problem is that super strength without rage isn't anything special and would be overshadowed by all other powers. I think it would just be as simple as doing the math to make sure the average damage of the powerset is on the same level as other powersets. I know that I'm not the only one who would like the change, it's just always been an inconsistency that bothered me.

[MisterMittens]

4 hours ago, Zeraphia said:

I actually agree with you at this point, however, I'd be very cautious with this one. Rage could possibly take Scrappers into unprecedented levels of damaging territory and honestly the "crash" is as bad as people make it seem. I think thematically there are lots of reasons and concepts to pick SS for Scrappers, particularly those wishing for a sort of "Spiderman" character, he has super strength, and he is very durable, but not quite the "Tanker" of Superman. I think it is a perfectly reasonable request, though you may see Rage turned into something very different, right now as it is, Rage is being looked at for rebalancing across all ATs for its crash. I do think SS for Scrappers is something on their radar actually, but expect it to come about after the Homecoming team has decided what to do with Rage in its current form. 

Rage crash is 99% of the reason I ever die however it keeps things interesting. The damage that you gain from raging is well worth it. I don't think rage crash needs that big of a buff honestly, I kind of like how risky the powerset is tbh.

 

I think, and this goes for all powers jumping archetypes, that they should be compared to the other powers around them and either tuned up or down based on how strong they are for that AT. Just giving scrappers rage would likely be completely busted, allowing over 1000 damage in a single hit. If they gave scrappers something like half of rage with half of the detriment, I think something along those lines would make a lot of sense for balancing it to factor in crits.

[Lazarillo]

1 hour ago, MisterMittens said:

It would be sad to have rage full on replaced with buildup but if balancing rage for scrappers is too hard that could be an option.

The hope that Rage will be replaced by something that will be useful without zeroing out your damage every couple of minutes is the main reason I'd want to see Super Strength on Scrappers in the first place at this point.  They already shelved buffing Rage once because people whined the buff wasn't OP enough, let's not demand unrealistic performance here and ruin the chances, too.

[Burnt Toast]

I would love a SS Scrapper but not with the way Rage is now.,,with the defense penalty. I have a SS tank - he doesn't have Rage because his focus is mainly to taunt/keep enemies occupied while shelling out average tank damage lol. 

[Solarverse]

Apparently once again I am just the opposite as the rest of the community, but I for one would HATE to see SS on Scrappers. I should have suggested this first so the community can disagree with me, lol.

[MisterMittens]

1 minute ago, Solarverse said:

Apparently once again I am just the opposite as the rest of the community, but I for one would HATE to see SS on Scrappers. I should have suggested this first so the community can disagree with me, lol.

Why would you hate it?

[Solarverse]

2 minutes ago, MisterMittens said:

Why would you hate it?

I'm old school is why. When I first played this game shortly after opening day, if you wanted to play Super Strength, you rolled a Tank, if you wanted Dark Melee, you rolled a Scrapper, if you wanted to play Dark Armor, you rolled a Scrapper and so forth and if you wanted Fire Armor, you rolled a Tank. Now it is getting to a point that it doesn't matter what you roll, you can play whatever power you want to. I never wanted to see the game turn in to this. I was even a bit disappointed that Villains were basically mirror copies of heroes. Very few unique powers. Now that doesn't even matter because now you can play villain rolls as heroes. So as you can see from my point of view, what once made AT's and Factions unique, no longer have much of a point...and the more power sets that get shared between AT's, the less unique they become.

However, I recognize that I am pretty much the only forum poster who feels this way, so I am out numbered by 10,000 to 1 here. Not much place left for us old timers I guess.

[MisterMittens]

1 minute ago, Solarverse said:

So as you can see from my point of view, what once made AT's and Factions unique, no longer have much of a point...and the more power sets that get shared between AT's, the less unique they unique they become.

I agree a lot of AT's had their unique powersets turn generic and that maybe shouldn't have happened, I disagree that the AT's aren't unique since now the major seperations are melee, ranged, or support but there are plenty of AT's that are still very unique like dominators, stalkers, and blasters. I think the main area where the AT's are pretty generic is the melee AT's with stalker being the exception. Brutes, tankers, and scrappers all have the same powers with super strength being the only discrepancy. I would love more changes to scrappers, brutes, and tankers to flesh out their differences but thematically the character of a glass cannon strongman is impossible at the moment for no reason other than "it's always been this way and tanks need something to be different." I think the best way to solve this would be to have a tanker and brute unique armor set. It would make a lot more sense for the two AT's that focus defense to have their own unique defense powerset. I just don't think super strength is what should be unique to tanks just because thematically it doesn't make sense even though it's how it's always been. If it stays the way it is though I can always keep playing my SS/Bio brute for that offensive SS fix. I would prefer the community to be happy over my own personal desires for the game.

[BrandX]

4 hours ago, Saiyajinzoningen said:

This has been heavily requested since olden days of yore. Fire scrappers already out damage fire brutes by a small margin. Giving them rage +crits would be a recipe for a power creeping FOTM city of SS scrappers. 

 

I.m not against variety but where does this end? Imagine stalkers with titan weapons. I don't mean to sound like a curmudgeon, but i like the fact that some power sets are limited to certain archetypes. While many see it as stifling. i see it as encouragement to step outside your comfort zone and make something that isn't a brute.

 

There's plenty of Super Strength style scrappers in comics.  I'd say there's reasons of Titan Weapon Stalkers, at least in mangas.

 

Though, I was always thought they could just give Titan Weapon Skins to other weapon sets.

 

It always amazes me however, that we have Brutes who can do as much, if not more with some sets, but the idea that Scrappers doing more with a set, some how comes out bad, especially since Brutes come with more health and higher resist caps.

 

Perma Rage on Scrappers, if it becomes that big of deal, can just be given the same numbers as Follow Up or Blinding Feint.  Two powers that can give perma +DMG/+ToHit and aren't considered OMG Nuuuuu!

 

Not to mention, how the original devs decided on what made since for concepts.  I never thought Ice Armored heroes felt like Tanks.  Trollers, Scrappers, Sentinels, would seem to work more.

 

As for Blasters, even Cyclops seemed to be tougher than the Blaster AT.

 

However, alternate animations could be passed around to give people the animations if it's about animations.

 

I can already RP Street Justice as someone with Super Strength.  Crushing Uppercut and Knockout Blow have the same animation time, so why not share the animation if the idea of sets being everywhere is so awful?

[Yomo Kimyata]

Based on my experience with super strength and my experience with scrappers, the super strength set would probably need to be severely diminished in order to provide a balanced scrapper experience.  Simply porting it to scrappers with the 1.125 damage scalar would be massively overpowered compared to every other scrapper set, in my opinion.  I can't speak about the rage mechanic, since I don't min max it in my play.

 

I want more underpowered sets!

[MunkiLord]

Yes please! I want a Super Strength Scrapper, don't get me wrong. But what I really want is Stone Melee Scrappers and I just feel that won't happen before Super Strength is ported. Seismic Smash on a Scrapper sounds amazing.

[Bopper]

I always thought Street Justice was designed to be the Scrapper version of Super Strength. You lose Rage (which would be O.P. on a Scrapper) and you lose Foot Stomp (which, aside from Whirling Smash, is the top PBAoE melee attack in the game in terms of DPA*Area. Foot Stomp is only behind Shockwave for non-TW AoEs in terms of DPA*AreaFactor and DPA*Area).

*Note, I did not look at Savage Melee nor Chain Induction for that analysis as they require extra effort for mechanics/pseudopets that I didn't want to do for a simple forum reply.

Spoiler

 

So conceding those two huge benefits, Street Justice provides superior Single Target attacks that are superior to Super Strength in every way.

Spoiler

Every single Street Justice attack (ST and AoE) have better DPA than Super Strength's Jab, Punch, and Hurl.

 

Haymaker is Super Strength's 2nd best DPA attack, yet at Combo 3 (max), Sweeping Cross and Spinning Strike (both small AoEs) have better DPA than Haymaker. Shin Breaker also has better DPA than Haymaker.

 

Crushing Uppercut even has better DPA than Knockout Blow when at Combo 2 (practically equivalent) or Combo 3 (11.66% stronger).

 

Throw in Shin Breaker (can slot Achilles) and Rib Cracker (short resistance debuff), you can get a Combo-3 Crushing Uppercut to turn into Knockout Blow on steroids (27.5% resistance debuff + Combo-3 Crushing Uppercut = 1.42 x Knockout Blow).

 

So long story short, we kind of already have Scrapper Super Strength. It comes with a neutered build up, nothing close to OMG Foot Stomp's AoE (but Sweeping Cross and Spinning Strike hit like ST attacks with AoE capability), and a combo system that is ok although somewhat a nuisance (disincentivizes using non-STJ attacks in your attack chain). But it comes with massive orange numbers and excellent proc potential.

 

Edited June 6, 2020 by Bopper

[Haijinx]

without Rage, Jab, Punch and Haymaker would need to have their recharges doubled (and base damage also doubled) so it looked like a normal Set.

 

 

[Llewellyn Blackwell]

Yeah cant say I see any issue with a direct port frankly. We already have SS brutes, who can due to their own fury bar maintain a very high degree of dmg few scrapper builds can rival. Dark melee is likely the strongest melee scrappers have, being able to deliver a very large perma dmg buff with no downside at all beyond using a pbaoe attack you have to set for buffing rather than dps( which on the aoe light dark melee is certainly a cost dont get me wrong).

 

At least when it comes to a set that grants a potential perma dmg buff. Dark also comes with the extremely powerful to hit debuff 2ndary effect, while SS has a mix of KB, stuns etc. Which while useful do not have the same impact especially when facing AVs and GMs who dont really fret KB or mild CC effects.

 

So I mean even if SS on a scrappers means it out DPS hard hitter sets like dark melee if ported, I really dont see power creep. I see maybe abit more dps at the cost of other valued things. And having to factor in rage crashes is no small thing and should still be enough of a balance for the dps even on a scrapper.

[Galaxy Brain]

Has anyone actually.... you know, run the numbers on this? It should be as simple as looking at the tanker values, apply scrapper numbers and see what the attack chain is.

 

Then we already have data on other scrapper primaries to compare.

Edited June 7, 2020 by Galaxy Brain

[Vanden]

11 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

Has anyone actually.... you know, run the numbers on this?

Only the people who have serious reservations about porting it unchanged.

[Galaxy Brain]

4 hours ago, Vanden said:

Only the people who have serious reservations about porting it unchanged.

Was it posted anywhere? Only reason I ask is that we do have data to compare a hypothetical Scrapper SS against. 

[Zeraphia]

It seems others are closed off for what a direct port right now would be if you kept Rage the exact same. I agree that a Scrapper with permanent double-rage is flat out broken but just one rage with improved base numbers (as in you could never double-stack and when you use Rage there is a "penalty")? Maybe a lot less so. I think a lot of my initial issue with this is what you could do with Scrapper if you double-rage'd and used something like Moonbeam from Soul Mastery with Fast Snipe IO... that would surely compete with TW/Bio, although it may still be a few leagues behind it. 

 

It may be too early to judge if it is too OP for Scrappers until we have seen what the newer Rage changes will be. I would earnestly wait until they announce that first. 

 

Also, Rage would not be the only set with a built-in permanent Build Up power, there is Soul Drain from Dark Melee. Sure, not the same thing, Rage requires no targets, Soul Drain requires targets but still gives you a hefty damage bonus at base (even if there are none) and can get even higher than single-stacked Rage if there are enough enemies in range, in addition does AoE damage. Their AoE isn't far off given your only AoE in SS is at the very end, and Shadow Maul while not as good as FS, is still a serviceable AoE now (both of them have only one AoE). Dark has a lot more utility built in compared to SS with its heals and -to hit it is much Tankier overall, although to be fair SS has knockdowns so not a complete 1:1. But I am just saying that I think people should wait for the Rage changes before screaming it'll be too OP to ever port over. 

 

Please do not grill me for comparing DM to SS, I'm not saying they're equivalent, I'm just pointing out that there are sets that have similar elements to what SS could provide, I'm not saying DM is better than SS or vise versa. What I am saying is wait for the Rage changes to make a judgement and don't assume Scrappers will get the ability to double-stack.

[Saiyajinzoningen]

29 minutes ago, Zeraphia said:

It seems others are closed off for what a direct port right now would be if you kept Rage the exact same. I agree that a Scrapper with permanent double-rage is flat out broken but just one rage with improved base numbers (as in you could never double-stack and when you use Rage there is a "penalty")? Maybe a lot less so. I think a lot of my initial issue with this is what you could do with Scrapper if you double-rage'd and used something like Moonbeam from Soul Mastery with Fast Snipe IO... that would surely compete with TW/Bio, although it may still be a few leagues behind it. 

 

It may be too early to judge if it is too OP for Scrappers until we have seen what the newer Rage changes will be. I would earnestly wait until they announce that first. 

 

Also, Rage would not be the only set with a built-in permanent Build Up power, there is Soul Drain from Dark Melee. Sure, not the same thing, Rage requires no targets, Soul Drain requires targets but still gives you a hefty damage bonus at base (even if there are none) and can get even higher than single-stacked Rage if there are enough enemies in range, in addition does AoE damage. Their AoE isn't far off given your only AoE in SS is at the very end, and Shadow Maul while not as good as FS, is still a serviceable AoE now (both of them have only one AoE). Dark has a lot more utility built in compared to SS with its heals and -to hit it is much Tankier overall, although to be fair SS has knockdowns so not a complete 1:1. But I am just saying that I think people should wait for the Rage changes before screaming it'll be too OP to ever port over. 

 

Please do not grill me for comparing DM to SS, I'm not saying they're equivalent, I'm just pointing out that there are sets that have similar elements to what SS could provide, I'm not saying DM is better than SS or vise versa. What I am saying is wait for the Rage changes to make a judgement and don't assume Scrappers will get the ability to double-stack.

right now because this is all speculation all we can do is look at past results to predict future changes. So lets look at Kinetic melee. Siphon power works differently on brutes/scrappers/tanks than it does on stalkers. On stalkers its a typical build up power that refreshes upon crit. Most likely because 5x stacks of siphon power plus crits is way too OP. this is probably also why stalkers don't have super strength either. The odd thing is i think the kinetic melee on stalkers works better than on the other AT's due to this mechanic. 

 

That being said. If rage was treated the same way (a build up power that refreshes on crit), it might work but again only time will tell

[Infinitum]

14 hours ago, Bentley Berkeley said:

Yeah cant say I see any issue with a direct port frankly. We already have SS brutes, who can due to their own fury bar maintain a very high degree of dmg few scrapper builds can rival. Dark melee is likely the strongest melee scrappers have, being able to deliver a very large perma dmg buff with no downside at all beyond using a pbaoe attack you have to set for buffing rather than dps( which on the aoe light dark melee is certainly a cost dont get me wrong).

 

At least when it comes to a set that grants a potential perma dmg buff. Dark also comes with the extremely powerful to hit debuff 2ndary effect, while SS has a mix of KB, stuns etc. Which while useful do not have the same impact especially when facing AVs and GMs who dont really fret KB or mild CC effects.

 

So I mean even if SS on a scrappers means it out DPS hard hitter sets like dark melee if ported, I really dont see power creep. I see maybe abit more dps at the cost of other valued things. And having to factor in rage crashes is no small thing and should still be enough of a balance for the dps even on a scrapper.

On my tanks, I personally like having to build around and work around the rage crash, especially a double rage crash.

 

It becomes part of the character. And provides scenarios to keep you on your toes. Edit: also when I first joined homecoming, I was POd about the way rage crash was edited and even gave up on my reborn first 50 live and HC but I kept playing with it, and finally found a way to decently mitigate the crashes - even a double rage crash. It requires Incarnates and building around it - but it works and on a scrapper I would imagine more sacrifices would have to be made to make it work.

 

I dont think that would be any different on a scrapper, risk vs reward and build sacrifice - they are already weaker out of the gate from a mitigation stand point than both tanks and brutes, double rage would magnify that and offset the dmg output.

 

It could be interesting.

Edited June 7, 2020 by Infinitum

[Llewellyn Blackwell]

2 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

On my tanks, I personally like having to build around and work around the rage crash, especially a double rage crash.

 

It becomes part of the character. And provides scenarios to keep you on your toes.

 

I dont think that would be any different on a scrapper, risk vs reward and build sacrifice - they are already weaker out of the gate from a mitigation stand point than both tanks and brutes, double rage would magnify that and offset the dmg output.

 

It could be interesting.

Something to ponder, Tanks especially have no issue reaching the res cap on their own. Yet I cant think of one build that lets a scrapper keep max dmg cap for any length of time. I think it would be quite fitting and fair for at least one scrapper primary being able to maintain a near max dmg cap buff in some way, and SS's rage and crash is likely the only way that could be done without utterly breaking the game( as we know SS tanks while always strong, simply due to the powers rage and crashes kept many away from it, and should still do so on scrappers keeping it from ever truly becoming fotm.

[BrandX]

Scrappers have Claws and Dual Blades for powers that can keep the +Dmg/+ToHit going non stop.  If Rage's numbers are to high, when using Tanker numbers, then just lower the numbers.  No reason it couldn't match Dual Blades and Claws (which have the same numbers) and the difference being, SS would have a crash and DB and Claws have a to hit check.

 

Note, as I say this, I have no desire for a SS user...I want Energy Melee 🙂

Edited June 8, 2020 by BrandX