KB to KD IO

[DREAMERS]

Hello
While playing as a team with ATs who often do knockback I had several requests from players who insist that I lose a slot to put an io knockback in knockdown because knockback irritates the players
However I find it unfair that a character uses a useful slot and lose damage or precision only to meter an IO knockback in knockdown especially if we have to meter it on each power that makes knockback
Suddenly watching the lvl 50 very few players play this kind of line because for them it is useless to mount a character if it is to lose a slot by powers and suddenly nerf his character to play as a team in all case I see it like this
My suggestion is as follows
Why not allow to put a single one IO which transforms all the powers of the character from knockback into knockdown which can be put on all attack powers like brawl which is useless (so that we do not lose slot unnecessarily)

or simply an option or a temporary power that we buy which transforms all knockbacks into knockdowns that can be activated and deactivated depending on the player (like a jetpack you can activate or deactivate it by clicking on it)

[Redlynne]

2 minutes ago, DREAMERS said:

Why not allow to put a single one IO which transforms all the powers of the character from knockback into knockdown

Because ALL OR NOTHING One Size Fits All Whether You Like It Or Not "answers" are really pretty terrible.  What's really needed is for the Player to have the means to CONTROL how much Knockback they do (none, a little, a lot) and be able to vary that as situations and circumstances warrant.

 

4 minutes ago, DREAMERS said:

or simply an option or a temporary power that we buy which transforms all knockbacks into knockdowns that can be activated and deactivated depending on the player (like a jetpack you can activate or deactivate it by clicking on it)

This is the only solution that makes any sense because it puts the control/management of Knockback into the Player's hands and makes it the Player's responsibility to know and DECIDE what to do (and when, and WHY).  That way it's there when you need it, and moderated when you don't need it (or when it's counterproductive).

[Chance Jackson]

I'm all for a toggle that reduces KB to KD its one of the best things about COXG

[Greycat]

4 hours ago, DREAMERS said:

While playing as a team with ATs who often do knockback I had several requests from players who insist that I lose a slot to put an io knockback in knockdown because knockback irritates the players

Are they paying you for your time to play the game? If not, then what you have or do not have slotted is none of their business.

[MTeague]

I use Knockback in what I believe to be an intelligent and responsible manner. 

Will all players agree with me?  No.

Do I care?  No, not really.

 

If a team is uptight enough to kick me for it, I probably wasn't enjoying their company anyway.

I do not enjoy teams that OBSESS over clearing missions in the absolute minimum possible time.  

Really, it's no great sin if we kill a mob in 8 seconds instead of 5.  Life, will go on.  

[SwitchFade]

Don't team with that team.

 

You're asking that other people, whom you chose to team with, accept it. If the team asks you not to, then don't KB things.

 

That said, I don't kick people for normal knockback. There's the occasional peace bringer who knocks things all over, and I ask them to stop the specific power that does that. Or, the random person who drops bonfire with no KD io on every group, who decidedly would get asked to leave. But, that's extreme. Other than that, KB is fine to me.

 

I've seen people ask controllers to not drop the AoE immobs until they group up a bit in melee range, that's reasonable. When that person kept not listening to the team, they were asked to leave.

 

Bottom line, teaming is exactly that, a team. Be a team player, or find a different team that doesn't care about KB. But don't expect people to cater to you.

Edited June 17, 2020 by SwitchFade

[Zepp]

For my Ill/Storm Troller I have two builds, a solo (chaos) build and an annoying team friendly build.

Gypsy Night (Chaos).mxd   Gypsy Night.mxd

[AerialAssault]

Oh boy! Tuesday! Time to talk about Knockback!

 

I'm not bothered by it, personally, unless someone is deliberately trolling. Most of the time though, people are just using the power as intended (i.e. Explosive Blast, Energy Torrent). 

If someone runs into a herded mob of enemies with Repel on, chances are they don't know that That Is Something You Do Not Do, and all it takes is a kind explanation. If they continue after that, then they're probably not worth having on the team.

 

To the suggestion at hand, I'll be honest, I have been ground down with these suggestions. Almost once a week for over a year, there has been the same suggestion. It's obvious that it's one that's not going away any time soon. Some people's butts get seriously scrombled because a bunch of pixels moved 5 feet away from their bunch of pixels.

 

So yeah, let's add a KB->KD toggle and we never have to talk about this again ever ever forever never again, ever.

[Parabola]

It would be fun if one of the toggle options was 'kd until dead'. So with this set all kb powers would apply to mobs as kd unless the power reduces the mobs health to 0 in which case the full kb would apply. That way you'd get team friendly mitigation and still have the satisfaction of blasting the dead mobs to the four corners of the room. It even makes a certain amount of thematic sense, the mob is resisting the effects while alive but when dead they get tossed around.

[0th Power]

Knockback again!  I don’t mind kb at all. I convert some powers on some characters, but for most, I use it so there are little to no problems. 
 

I have never been kicked from a team for using it, but that may be because I generally lead teams.  I have had people quit my teams because someone else or myself was using kb in a way they didn’t like, which is fine. 
 

I also have ran All KB TFs. Very fun. Very inefficient. But xp/min isn’t that important to me.  

[Galaxy Brain]

I'd much rather attack the "root" issue and make KB actually super cool and fun to mitigate the people who complain about it

 

 

 

[Saiyajinzoningen]

here we go again must be a new week

[Zeraphia]

Hmm... A more global knockback reduction in some capacity I do think is justified, especially for sets that have numerous knockback AoEs. I'm not sure I'd make it an enhancement however, I do think a toggle would be probably the best compromise (still not perfect though because you'd have to detoggle and retoggle if you wanted to use a knockback power specifically in that instance). 

 

What I hope I don't see: team leaders forcing others to use this toggle, and kicking people for not using it. 

[Grouchybeast]

5 hours ago, Galaxy Brain said:

I'd much rather attack the "root" issue and make KB actually super cool and fun to mitigate the people who complain about it

 

 

 

YES!  MORE KNOCKBACK! MAKE KNOCKBACK THE MOST POWERFUL SECONDARY EFFECT IN THE GAME!

 

Seriously, that thread has some great ideas.  Knockback needs to be made BETTER, not neutered.

[MunkiLord]

On 6/16/2020 at 1:20 PM, DREAMERS said:

Hello
While playing as a team with ATs who often do knockback I had several requests from players who insist that I lose a slot to put an io knockback in knockdown because knockback irritates the players
However I find it unfair that a character uses a useful slot and lose damage or precision only to meter an IO knockback in knockdown especially if we have to meter it on each power that makes knockback
Suddenly watching the lvl 50 very few players play this kind of line because for them it is useless to mount a character if it is to lose a slot by powers and suddenly nerf his character to play as a team in all case I see it like this
My suggestion is as follows
Why not allow to put a single one IO which transforms all the powers of the character from knockback into knockdown which can be put on all attack powers like brawl which is useless (so that we do not lose slot unnecessarily)

or simply an option or a temporary power that we buy which transforms all knockbacks into knockdowns that can be activated and deactivated depending on the player (like a jetpack you can activate or deactivate it by clicking on it)

A more fair solution would be for a single IO or toggle to lock all KB at zero instead of turning it to KD. That would be a reasonable cost.

[MunkiLord]

9 hours ago, Zeraphia said:

Hmm... A more global knockback reduction in some capacity I do think is justified, especially for sets that have numerous knockback AoEs. I'm not sure I'd make it an enhancement however, I do think a toggle would be probably the best compromise (still not perfect though because you'd have to detoggle and retoggle if you wanted to use a knockback power specifically in that instance). 

 

What I hope I don't see: team leaders forcing others to use this toggle, and kicking people for not using it. 

Which is why I think such a toggle should lock all KB mag to zero, a leader insisting a person loses all KB and KD is a much bigger ask and a tougher sell. If a leader is going to be an ass, that should have a cost too. Looking like a douchebag to the rest of the team is what I consider a fair cost.

 

Alternatively passing around a list of leaders that kick people for that would be acceptable too so we could all know what players to avoid like the plague.

Edited June 17, 2020 by MunkiLord

[Outrider_01]

19 minutes ago, MunkiLord said:

A more fair solution would be for a single IO or toggle to lock all KB at zero instead of turning it to KD. That would be a reasonable cost.

Sure, why not. 

 

Group like leadership toggle that is -100% damage, -100KB.  Insert flavor text, "by absorbing the surrounding energy and force, all knock back is reduced."  Self toggle only, -250% damage -100KB, "suppressing your power, it greatly reduces the force behind it." 

 

Fixes problem, give up something.  Seems fair, as a lot of people assume KB is a huge problem when its ignorance how to use it and that AoE solves everything.

 

Also puts power in the hands of another player.  Its like, they are going to kick you any way if you don't comply.  So comply and lose something in return.

 

You want KB?  Come with the powerset you chose, deal with it.  Someone else ignorantly hammer tosses freak across the room; why does it matter since they probably made some random dumb ass choice that same day that would annoy you; <--tl;dr can't fix stupid, why fight to suppress it.

 

[agentx5]

8 hours ago, DREAMERS said:

While playing as a team with ATs who often do knockback I had several requests from players who insist that I lose a slot to put an io knockback in knockdown because knockback irritates the players

Which server and what time of day typically?

 

Knockback used strategically is actually really good.  The problem is that most people use it foolishly.  (play a stalker trying to get off Assassin's strike, and you'll see where knock can be frustrating)  Used effectively, a powerful knockback at the right time, in the right direction, can be a lifesaver in combat for your team.  It's like how misuse of Incandescence can be frustrating and trolling, or using it to shove your team into the enemies faces and then into the wall in a heap can be sheer tactical brilliance.  Good use of knock requires practice, timing, and an excellent sense of positioning.  KB to KD just makes it more user friendly for your teammates, and less complicated to master.

Those who have seen my main character on Torchbearer have probably seen her slap an enemy from a good distance away to land right next to the tank's or brute's feet.  Or if she had it with a boss or lieutenant ranked enemy mezzing her, she's been known to ruthlessly chain slap&blast them into a wall or corner non-stop until they are dead.  Do not underestimate her magnitude 17 knock, it's saved her or a teammate more times than I can count.  Only PvP tanks or AVs are immune with their high magnitude protection, everyone else goes flying off their feet.  Basically, I use my knock as a mez of sorts, and never to scatter, but rather shove them into a wall, corner, or on occasion over an edge down to the rest of the group.  And this is not the first game I've used knockback in.

 

The one thing I wish was that we had an ranged AoE knock-to instead of a knock-back, to where it clusters the enemies instead of scattering them.  Only a few games have ever done this, and I have no idea why. (i.e.: Force Mage from Dragon Age II, "Pull of the Abyss")

[Greycat]

3 hours ago, agentx5 said:

The one thing I wish was that we had an ranged AoE knock-to instead of a knock-back, to where it clusters the enemies instead of scattering them.  Only a few games have ever done this, and I have no idea why. (i.e.: Force Mage from Dragon Age II, "Pull of the Abyss")

I was on a team a few weeks ago (might have been a TF) when we had this happen. I'm not sure what combination of things happened, but we had an enemy held - and it was being "dragged around" behind one of the other players. (No, we didn't have anyone with Mind using TK on it. It was definitely held and changed direction as the player moved.)

[arcane]

Converting KB to KD yields a significant improvement to many powers and merits a significant cost, like a slot per KB power. So it’s a no from me.

[ScarRee]

You really don't lose much dps or precision by giving up 1 slot in one or two powers. Infact it can actually help with continued group based dps by not knocking back the enemy and only knocking them up and down on the spot allowing more aoe's to hit them

[Chance Jackson]

Depending on powerset (especially AR) you might slot 4 of those IOs which is excessive to avoid having your powers be a nuisance to using your other powers

[arcane]

55 minutes ago, Chance Jackson said:

Depending on powerset (especially AR) you might slot 4 of those IOs which is excessive to avoid having your powers be a nuisance to using your other powers

I certainly slot 4 in all my storms, but you could certainly need more than that for a kheldian or a storm/energy or somethin. 🙂
 

And those IO’s give you much more than reduced annoyance. It’s a huge DPS boost for Tornado or Bonfire, for instance, so well worth the slot.

Edited June 20, 2020 by arcaneholocaust

[Chance Jackson]

3 hours ago, arcaneholocaust said:

I certainly slot 4 in all my storms, but you could certainly need more than that for a kheldian or a storm/energy or somethin. 🙂
 

And those IO’s give you much more than reduced annoyance. It’s a huge DPS boost for Tornado or Bonfire, for instance, so well worth the slot.

The trade off does increase DPS but live enemies return to the fight quicker when enemies go from getting KB to just getting KD, for most this is worth the trade but for KB defenders it isn't which is a valid argument, I don't think an additional trade should have to be made for the convenience & team compatibility of KD instead of KB

[Myrmidon]

On 6/17/2020 at 7:19 AM, parabola said:

It would be fun if one of the toggle options was 'kd until dead'. So with this set all kb powers would apply to mobs as kd unless the power reduces the mobs health to 0 in which case the full kb would apply. That way you'd get team friendly mitigation and still have the satisfaction of blasting the dead mobs to the four corners of the room. It even makes a certain amount of thematic sense, the mob is resisting the effects while alive but when dead they get tossed around.

I would just be happy with a toggle that changed all KD into KB on 0 health mobs.😂