State of the Project - August 2020

[Tuft]

40 minutes ago, Piecemeal said:

I want to make you guys fall in love again with red side.

As I said above: It is not about the quality of the zones, not about the writing or the ATs. It's about the subject matter. Stuff like Westin Phipps arc makes me quite literally sick to the stomach, as in want to throw up.

 

Edited August 21, 2020 by Tuft

[Lines]

44 minutes ago, kiramon said:

True true. 

 

I've always preferred red, since it was released - including their ATs over Blue. There isn't a single AT blue side that I prefer over its red counterpart. Red side ATs were also designed with inherents in mind, whereas blue were given them after the fact to balance with red, which is why I think red's are more interesting.

 

But yeah, DCUO still has a huge disparity between hero/villain, to the point where any "new" hero/villain game should probably avoid splitting the factions, because villain will always be dead in this genre. It's not like Horde vs Alliance, for sure. 

 

On that account, I think Going Rogue and Praetoria had the right idea down to a tee. The moral differences between the two factions was far less clear cut with good and evil on each side and many characters torn between their morality. A resistance character has access to the loyalist arcs with slightly different outcomes for flavour, and vice versa.

 

I sometimes feel like Praetoria is the setting CoH should have been from the start.

 

SWTOR is an interesting case. I think the population is quite well split between Republic and Empire (I don't have numbers to back up this claim. Edit: A quick google says in 2016 it was 60% Empire and 40% Republic, at least in PvP) even though the Empire is fairly overtly evil. Maybe that an Imperial player can make good moral choices and experiment with their morality despite the Empire's evil makes it more accessible. I'd have quite liked to have seen this in CoH's Redside, where a player has more choice to try to fight the system and make a positive impact.

 

 

I like to see redside characters as being protagonists who are caught up in a setting where righteousness is discouraged, and they are labelled villains by Paragon City and Longbow for no other reason than that they're on Recluse's list of Destined Ones. They're pushed into filling that role with no escape. They're not antagonists at all. Some of the later content makes this a little harder to justify. I played My Other Selves Morality Mission and hated the way it made my character sound, or insinuated that my character has a big world domination scheme. The future selves have wings and a halo and it just felt forced and dumb as hell.

Edited August 21, 2020 by Lines

[Wavicle]

1 minute ago, Lines said:

 

On that account, I think Going Rogue and Praetoria had the right idea down to a tee. The moral differences between the two factions was far less clear cut with good and evil on each side and many characters torn between their morality. 

This isn't really true, although I understand why a lot of people see it this way. However it is abundantly clear that in fact the Resistance are Heroes (Wardens) and Vigilantes (Crusaders), while the Loyalists are Villains and Rogues. After level 20 some of the characters switch sides, but the Praetorian story lines are definitely not about good and evil on both sides.

[Lines]

Just now, Wavicle said:

This isn't really true, although I understand why a lot of people see it this way. However it is abundantly clear that in fact the Resistance are Heroes (Wardens) and Vigilantes (Crusaders), while the Loyalists are Villains and Rogues. After level 20 some of the characters switch sides, but the Praetorian story lines are definitely not about good and evil on both sides.

I don't think it gets more evil than resistance crusaders - The Power arc is mostly harmless, just very selfish. In my eyes Loyalist Responsibility is the most heroic plot of the bunch, keeping in mind that the character you play as doesn't know anything about Emperor Cole's ambitions or Calvin Scott's deception until the end of Praetoria or much later in the game.

[Wavicle]

1 minute ago, Lines said:

I don't think it gets more evil than resistance crusaders - The Power arc is mostly harmless, just very selfish. In my eyes Loyalist Responsibility is the most heroic plot of the bunch, keeping in mind that the character you play as doesn't know anything about Emperor Cole's ambitions or Calvin Scott's deception until the end of Praetoria or much later in the game.

Whatever you have to tell yourself to sleep at night. 🤣

[kiramon]

24 minutes ago, Lines said:

SWTOR is an interesting case. I think the population is quite well split between Republic and Empire (I don't have numbers to back up this claim. Edit: A quick google says in 2016 it was 60% Empire and 40% Republic, at least in PvP) even though the Empire is fairly overtly evil. Maybe that an Imperial player can make good moral choices and experiment with their morality despite the Empire's evil makes it more accessible. I'd have quite liked to have seen this in CoH's Redside, where a player has more choice to try to fight the system and make a positive impact.

I think there's a huge difference though - in that the Republic side is "stuck" with Jedi whereas the Empire has Sith, which wouldn't be as skewed if they used the same graphics/animations, but there's a huge quality difference between the Lightning/graphics on sith side versus the "force" waves on the jedi side. I also think the "good" choices are very... bland. "Save his life." "Detain him" vs "MURDER THE SCUM BAG" "DESTROY HIS FAMILY." The goody two-shoes of the "good" choices is extreme, whereas the Empire/dark side choices are a lot more edge-lord, lol.

 

[Lines]

3 minutes ago, kiramon said:

I think there's a huge difference though - in that the Republic side is "stuck" with Jedi whereas the Empire has Sith, which wouldn't be as skewed if they used the same graphics/animations, but there's a huge quality difference between the Lightning/graphics on sith side versus the "force" waves on the jedi side. I also think the "good" choices are very... bland. "Save his life." "Detain him" vs "MURDER THE SCUM BAG" "DESTROY HIS FAMILY." The goody two-shoes of the "good" choices is extreme, whereas the Empire/dark side choices are a lot more edge-lord, lol.

 

I think you're absolutely right, and the factors that sway or balance the population in that game one way or another are complex and it comes down to more than just the blatant moral choice of each side. It may also have helped that the two sides were there from the start and were never treated as two separate games, unlike CoX.

 

Generally, I did find all four of the Imperial class stories to be significantly better written than their Republic counterparts too. I was bored out of my skull doing Republic Trooper and my Darkside Jedi Consular made no sense to the point of hilarity. But Imperial Agent? Sweet lord, those were some good times.

[Rejolt]

16 hours ago, 0th Power said:

If you order before October 1st 

Class of Page 6! Let’s Go!

[Abraxus]

7 hours ago, Power Extreme said:

So you are all bending over backwards to kiss NCsofts ass again, You would think that you would have learned by now that they are not to be trusted for Any reason, How about some new Power sets like wind power / Growth Power / do away with the argo cap.or boost the cap for tankers and Brutes, an don't say it can't be done that's BS, If We Have Cake and Destiny server can do it you can, Think it's 15 now move it to 30. an how about a Grav/mental combo. An bring back the Double Influance for us 50's

With regards to NCSoft, perhaps they know more about the situation than you do, since they are the ones actually in contact with them.  There always seems to be a lot of supposition, and assumption about this, when nobody outside of the legal process is actually privy to what is discussed.  But, that doesn't stop folks from portraying a perspective that implies some knowledge of the subject that is supposed to convince others of its validity.  Well, you don't, and the bitterness over the games closure 8 years ago, well maybe it's time to look to the future, rather than the past.  And, let's not forget that the very reason they are doing this isn't for their own enrichment, or profit.  It's for the love of the game, and to take away the lingering specter of legal action, so we can be put that behind us, if they are successful.

As for the demands for specific things, well...things are coming according to the updates, and hints we've all seen.  Perhaps not the things you have listed, but Page 6 has a lot of promise.  But, I doubt that any of it will be satisfactory for you.  You seem to relish in focusing on the negatives of playing on HC, and how great it is on other servers.  Typically, there is no way to overcome that kind of negativity, so do as you will.  I will play the game, and wait for what's to come.  These folks here at HC have never given me any reason to doubt that it will only get better from here, no any reason to doubt their motivations. 

[SwitchFade]

9 hours ago, Power Extreme said:

So you are all bending over backwards to kiss NCsofts ass again, You would think that you would have learned by now that they are not to be trusted for Any reason, How about some new Power sets like wind power / Growth Power / do away with the argo cap.or boost the cap for tankers and Brutes, an don't say it can't be done that's BS, If We Have Cake and Destiny server can do it you can, Think it's 15 now move it to 30. an how about a Grav/mental combo. An bring back the Double Influance for us 50's

No.

[Chris24601]

1 hour ago, Wavicle said:

This isn't really true, although I understand why a lot of people see it this way. However it is abundantly clear that in fact the Resistance are Heroes (Wardens) and Vigilantes (Crusaders), while the Loyalists are Villains and Rogues. After level 20 some of the characters switch sides, but the Praetorian story lines are definitely not about good and evil on both sides.

Nah, the interesting part was they put the most traditionally heroic types (Warden goal of overthrowing the evil empire without endangering the population) with the worst possible monsters (the Crusaders are willing to blow up hospitals full of innocents and set off a neutron bomb under the city just to make Cole look bad) and then put the folks struggling to make the least bad of a bunch of awful choices (Responsibility) with the ones who only care about the fame of being a super (Power is basically The Boys).

 

Thus, each faction is a study in contrasts; The Resistance is “What means are justified?” and the Loyalists are “What do you do with your power?”

 

By the end the Responsibility Loyalists and Wardens are basically on the same page that Cole’s invasion plans have to be stopped (and fit naturally into Blue-side) and Crusader and Power, while their overall goals don’t align, are naturally better fits for the Might Makes Right philosophy of Arachnos and the Rogue Isles.

 

As to Red-side, I’ve done several characters who make it to about level 35. Prior to 35 there’s enough content that is Rogue-focused that I can work with the setting as a fugitive or jerk-with-a-heart-of-gold type who robs from the even worse and tries not to get any bystanders hurt.

 

Past that, particularly once you reach Grandville, the only Rogue options left are basically tip missions and newspapers (beat up or rob another villain). There’s no way a Rogue (at least as I envision a Rogue) can justify not shooting Westin Phelps in the head after being given their first assignment from him.

 

Bottom-line for me; if you want me to be interested in late-game Red-side then I need more arcs that let me stay a Rogue; an Ocean’s 11, John Wick, just about any comic series where a villain is the protagonist.

 

The biggest problem with a lot of Red-side content is you’re basically being written as the antagonist during acts one and two of a three act superhero story instead of as a protagonist of a full three act story... basically you’re presented as a monster (ex. the lackey mission in the Graves arc; the Skull agrees to help you and be your minion only for you to turn him over to a serial killer not two-minutes later... this is particularly jarring if you’re playing a rogue-ish Thugs MM as the Skull was perfect recruitment material for your gang of misfits).

 

Even better from my PoV would be to start adding actual hero missions on the Isles and full-on villain missions in Paragon City. Let the players who really want to play a Batman type have the rundown urban decay and overtly corrupt police forces and corporations of the Isles along with the worst villainous scum to fight. Let the villains who prefer to plot crimes against the rich targets of Paragon have missions beyond just the timed mayhem missions and other instances to explore there.

 

But as written currently, I start into Rogue tip missions as soon as they’re available and leave the Isles behind for Blue-side after I get done with Hardcase and unlocking the Patron powers.

[Chris24601]

Oh and regarding the “NCSoft Bad” and “Gimme Shinies” post above...

 

NCSoft is made up of people and those people change over time. The NCSoft of today is not the NCSoft of eight years ago. Their priorities then are not going to be their priorities now. The people making the decisions now aren’t the people who made the decision then.

 

There’s also a big difference between shutting down a game with the thought that the IP might be useful elsewhere and that the market would move to their other properties... and licensing an IP that’s laid fallow for nearly a decade to be used in a market in which they have no interest in even trying to compete in.

 

As to things like growth and wind control and all those other “shinies”; Apple just ended compatibility with 32-bit programs. The next iteration of Windows is almost sure to follow suit as the last 32-bit systems are nearly a decade old at this point.

 

All those shinies aren’t worth a thing without a system to play it on. It may not be glamorous, but the Homecoming team did the work to upgrade the client to 64-bit architecture that ensures new players on new systems can actually play the game (and older players aren’t locked out forever because their old machine finally died).

 

Cleaning up the fundamentals like that is the sort of responsible use of resources that will keep Homecoming running long after flashes in the pan offering poorly tested shinies have faded away.

[Greycat]

12 hours ago, Wavicle said:

I don't think anyone really disagrees with any of that, @Neogumbercules, people simply don't as often want to play "bad guys".

I can disagree. Not a fan of the redside aesthetic or "compact" (and few) zones - it leads to burnout on it *really* fast for me.

 

And the writing... I'm going to preface with "It's *really hard* to write for villains," because it is and there's just not enough dev team to cover so many possible motivations, but for a lot of it you felt like a lackey. Then you get to play a VEAT and the arcs make you a dupe. And there's not really a heads up for things like Bocor or Phipps, which have things some people might find offputting.

 

Honestly, AE's the best thing to happen to Redside, storywise. since people can craft whatever fits their character.

[Ironblade]

On 8/20/2020 at 3:34 AM, Oginth said:

Home Of Heroes: And Villains

Just need one small adjustment......

 

Home of Heroes and Villains

[Ironblade]

12 hours ago, Power Extreme said:

So you are all bending over backwards to kiss NCsofts ass again,

Again?  Are you referring to the company that was OWNED by NCSoft as 'kissing their ass'?

[Lines]

1 hour ago, Greycat said:

And the writing... I'm going to preface with "It's *really hard* to write for villains," because it is and there's just not enough dev team to cover so many possible motivations, but for a lot of it you felt like a lackey. Then you get to play a VEAT and the arcs make you a dupe. And there's not really a heads up for things like Bocor or Phipps, which have things some people might find offputting.

 

Honestly, AE's the best thing to happen to Redside, storywise. since people can craft whatever fits their character.

Even though I'm a redside advocate, I do agree with you here. But I think the culprit is the contacts and mission infrastructure of CoH rather than the writing. It works just fine for the blueside format of "there's some nefarious scheme going down, here's how you can resolve it". If you're a hero in the city and shit's going down somewhere, you go and save the city regardless of what sort of shit it is. That's your job. But the redside format is more "there's an opportunity for you. You must do this to make the most of it." you don't really have enough information to know if it's something that befits the character you're trying to play and you seldom have the choice to move laterally between contacts to try other things.

 

I'm really excited to see what Piecemeal manages to do, and it sounds like he's breaking that format, which is exactly what's needed.

[Patti]

Did Piecemeal read the mega thread about redside started by Miss a couple months ago?   What did Piwcemeal take away as player feedback from that thread?

[Greycat]

4 minutes ago, Patti said:

Did Piecemeal read the mega thread about redside started by Miss a couple months ago?   What did Piwcemeal take away as player feedback from that thread?

Probably took away the silverware. 🙂

 

[nightroarer]

14 hours ago, Piecemeal said:

I want to make you guys fall in love again with red side..

It probably won't happen for me. It's not about the quality of the storylines, etc., it's about good vs evil. I like to play good guys.

 

I do have some villains for a change of pace, but the majority of my time is spent heroing. 🙂

[BurtHutt]

18 hours ago, Piecemeal said:

I want to make you guys fall in love again with red side. Its personality is more in line with my own. When my current project is done I have a bang-up write-up for a massive plot-progressing arc that I'm writing in tandem with another, which will be quite fun and tie in some more lore. I also hope to continue challenging convention and surprising players. Current feedback is positive, but I look forward to the majority playerbase to test when it's ready.

 

It is one small step for man, one giant step for cyborgs.

I am happy to hear this. What I am not too stoked about is continuing with the same characters, factions and the such. I kinda hope the new Dev team adds new items - characters, factions, mission maps and so on. Something where it doesn't quite feel like the same old game 🙂

[Errants]

On 8/21/2020 at 5:58 AM, Piecemeal said:

It is one small step for man, one giant step for cyborgs.

MOONBASE CONFIRMED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

On 8/21/2020 at 6:29 AM, Tuft said:

As I said above: It is not about the quality of the zones, not about the writing or the ATs. It's about the subject matter. Stuff like Westin Phipps arc makes me quite literally sick to the stomach, as in want to throw up.

Westin Phipps is bad, but he's also cartoony bad, IIRC them correctly. He knows he's evil and putting on a show. Yeah, you're doing shit stuff - but it is overtly evil, and clear cut that this is Bad Stuff.

Now, on the other hand, Harris (IIRC) - the former Longbow lowbie contact? HIS arc makes my skin crawl. I've literally only ever done it twice - Once on Legacy (and then swore never again), and then once again here on HC (solely for the souvenir that time, on my badger/completionist). Props to the writers on that one... blech.

[Hew]

Theres been a billion posts since my comment, but here are my thoughts:

 

I loved red side. I played red side exclusively from the day it launched until right around the whole praetorian thing. Here is my breakdown on redside, having been for a LOT of years 100% dedicated redside player:

 

1. Mish content was generally pretty good, accessible, and MOSTLY not smash-your-face hard.

2. The stories were great, the villains were great (some were a bit too villainy, mr westin...) Ghost Widow/whatshisface "love story" arc was amazing. I like TV. I like Radio. It was innovative and unique

3. Travel in the zones by and large SUCKED. Travel in Mercy was HORRIBLE (as a noob). Travel in Grandville is still gack. Travel in the one with the islands way up north with Caleb is ALSO horrible (unless flight on auto for several minutes is your thing).

4. Generally, things were much harder as a villain content wise, than wussy blue side kill freaks/council/whatever you get at low-mid levels. With redside you get : arachnos (the noob arachnos are still tough), legacy chain, wyvernwhatevers, longbow. That is a whole lot of not fun.

5. Redside ATs were largely solo friendly to various degrees (considering their power sets, at functions, and layered capabilities), which meant you had more people on solo or small teams than large crazy blueside teams, cause hey, it just worked.

6. The redside market sucked because it was redside specific, and you didnt have it pumped full of blueside stuff. This lead to a lot of difficulty building chars 😕

 

 

As a modern player, I only hit redside for the respec taskforces, MAYBE an occasional regular tf, and for my patron. Items #3 and #4  are what prevent me from playing anything level 1 up there. I like company, being a very social player. I am not disparaging any new redside content. I really want to see it happen. I just struggle to enjoy content there, when its hard to find bodies to group with. 

 

Anything that could be done to boost redside population, either as vigilantes or rogues or straight villains I would totally participate in. I really want to see redside thrive, but most of the items above are what burnt me out on it, and I have a feeling maybe other old redside-preferring players.

Edited August 22, 2020 by Hew

[Gulbasaur]

 

1 hour ago, Hew said:

3. Travel in the zones by and large SUCKED. Travel in Mercy was HORRIBLE (as a noob). Travel in Grandville is still gack. Travel in the one with the islands way up north with Caleb is ALSO horrible (unless flight on auto for several minutes is your thing).

Early blueside zones suffer from being a bit similar but at least they were navigable without flight - redside zones have pushed me to just take flight on every character because otherwise it's such a complete mess. How the walls-and-elevators design got past quality control is beyond me. I am 100% sure they were told to slow down travel to artificially inflate the time it took to get around to add fake longevity. I can't help but think the same thing happened with the godawful grind to unlock story arcs from brokers.

1 hour ago, Hew said:

5. Redside ATs were largely solo friendly to various degrees (considering their power sets, at functions, and layered capabilities), which meant you had more people on solo or small teams than large crazy blueside teams, cause hey, it just worked.

I remember playing redside fairly early on and hating the archetypes. Brutes were just scrappers with crash helmets, corruptors were gimpy defenders and stalkers died in the tutorial mission. Masterminds and dominators were neat, though, even if dominators were just Safety Blasters. Combat on the two sides (before IO sets) was really, really different - blueside felt like you were working as a team while redside felt like you were just all coincidentally playing in the same mission instance.

 

Nowadays, I love my fortunata but I'd left the game by the time they came out. I still have an overall preference for blueside ATs. I do quite like redside content, but I definitely spend less time there - in a way, it's just as generic as early blueside but with dereliction and inclement weather instead of skyscrapers and apartment blocks.

Edited August 22, 2020 by Gulbasaur

[Grouchybeast]

I like a lot about redside, but what it could really do with is more variety in the enemies.  At the moment it can be a bit All Longbow All The Time in places.

[Patti]

Maybe a mutant themed hero group that are reformed outcasts?   Those could be fun to fight.