Focused Feedback: Travel Updates: Base Teleportation, Long Range Teleporter Accolade, Special TP Powers

[Vanden]

2 minutes ago, Blackbird71 said:

As I understand it, the enterbasefrompasscode command will only work after you execute the Base Teleporter/Monitor Duty power (unless you're already in range of a portal).

It looks like the way they set their binds up, they wanted to be able to just press a single key until the teleport to base works, the idea being that if you don't teleport to base on the first press, you use a power to make it so the next press will work. But with the command to activate a power coming before the command to go to a base, the game may try to queue up that power just before your character zones, which will use up a charge (for powers with charges, a charge will be used up even if the power gets interrupted or you die before it affects a target).

Edited October 31, 2020 by Vanden

[Coyotedancer]

2 minutes ago, Lines said:

Correct. If you fire off LRT and use /enterbasefrompasscode straight after, you can enter bases.

 

(just tested. But also thought of some ways I can try and break this.)

Now THAT's pretty cool.

 

I like it! 👍

[@Ghost]

Some quick pros and cons thoughts on the new changes:

 

+ LRTP: good! A single badge is worlds more reasonable and keeps the "explore it, unlock it" vibe going. Also narrows the gap on people with/without VidiotMaps installed. I think the initial power unlock still could be account wide? Making every alt do Atlas Park Tour Guide is still not something I look forward to.

+ Activation times: great! In lieu of fixing portals interrupting people, just having a reasonable time to activate the power is much better.

+ Fast Travel menu: excellent! Consolidating it all into a single button by default is tremendous. While it doesn't completely address the actual mechanical bloat, it's very appreciated. edit: if you could get the recharge text to display like it does on powers? A+ excellent many kisses much love.

 

- Recharge times: potential issue. This would get pointed out rapidly in actual play on live servers, but certain TFs and mission chains still require a lot of jumping in short periods of time and the 10 minute recharges on most of these may not always cut it.

- SG Portal cost: it's a lot. 10m/character for basic convenience in light of these changes is a PITA. But it also ties in to my main issue...

- Day Job Powers: these shouldn't be the best. Xanatos put it very well before.  

On 10/26/2020 at 1:44 PM, Xanatos said:

What is going to happen is that everyone will just get used to logging out at base portals and thereafter rely on dayjob portals due to their quicker recharge. Players always take the path of least resistance. The dayjob portals are going to see MUCH more use than the P2W options.

Travel's essential to the game. Having the best travel powers locked onto Day Jobs undermines the whole point of logging out in various places and collecting them, and encourages people to just log out at portals always and forever. Not to mention, the "power" relative to others like... 10% end recovery out of combat? Is way out of wack.

 

Swapping the Day Job power stats onto a 10k inf Supergroup Portal seems like the easy solution here, and just restoring the previous base Day Job bonus.

Edited October 31, 2020 by @Ghost

[Keen]

I finally got around to testing the base portal in Eden:

 

It's located at Woodsman, close to the Hive entrance.

 

On behalf of all Hamidon raiders, thanks for keeping it there!

[Gunrunner]

Thank you!  Build 2 is so close to what we've been asking for. 

 

I would make one change to the lineup as presented: Change the cooldown for the P2W Base Portal from 10 minutes to 90 seconds.  Near-instant transport to one's base is a serious QoL thing (and what we're losing with the removal of /EBFP), a 10-minuite CD completely eliminates that bonus.  In ten minutes I could bloody well walk to where I'm going.  We just don't need this kind of time sink anymore, and for a long time we have not had one. 

 

I'd also suggest lowering the cost from 1 million inf to 10k.  Does that make it a handout?  YES.  Improving the CoH experience is what we're all about, right?  Quality of life enhancements are completely win/win.

 

Will such a change eliminate the need for further teleport powers?  For some people, YES.  I, for one, have zero interest in achieving badges (short of cool titles), ramping it up to accolades, or taking a pool power that I previously had absolutely no need for.  Day Jobs are cool and all, but I rarely have the time, or even recall, to run over to the nearest hospital to log out.   If I can just buy the power I need, I will do so.  I imagine a lot of other folks will, too.

 

That all being said, y'all are firmly on the right track with Build 2.

 

Addendum:

While writing this, I had an idea.  The seed of a thought.  How about a slash command (or instant power) that would NOT take you to your base, but rather to the nearest Base Portal?  Say, /MoveToBasePortal.  No more handshake issues, or nebulous gamebreaking exploits, just a near-immediate method of getting you to your base.  Something to think about.

[Tad Cooper]

2 hours ago, GadgetDon said:

Is the temporary base portal not working within that mission? Or any mission? If so, that will really suck. And I'm not sure the "but it's a time travel thing" is a justification - when I'm in Ouroborus or Cimerora, I can call a contact, get a mission, and Mission TP to them. I can also, from Peregrine Island, call Marcus, get a mission, and mission teleport to it. Attempting to unwind the "oh it's traveling through time not just distance" issues in the game is too late, IMO. (Same with calling a Praetorian contact from a Primal zone). If the various teleportation powers (and yes, I include base portal in this) are creating wormholes to get you from point A to point B, in theory that would work across time too.

Actually, I don't know. I was referring to this green bit from the new patch notes.

Quote

•  Ouroboros Portal
  • Can now be summoned and entered from level 1, rather than level 14
  • Can now be summoned while flying (but must still target the ground)
  • Now lasts 90 seconds instead of 5 minutes, but will remain in place after you leave the zone
  • Can no longer be used inside mission maps while the "No Temporary Powers" flag is enabled (eg: on Master Of attempts)

But now I've gone and tested it. Everything works on normal settings, and Long Range Teleporter still works with temp powers disabled. So you can in fact still pop out during that mission.

Edited October 31, 2020 by Tad Cooper
clarity

[JAMMan0000]

24 minutes ago, Vanden said:

Isn't putting the /powexec command before the /enterbasefrompasscode command going to waste a charge of the day job powers if the enterbase command actually works?

No charges are wasted. Macros are executed right to left, so pressing F12 first attempts to use the /enterbasefrompasscode command in order to take advantage of any existing portal. If there is an existing portal, you immediately go to you base and the rest of the command is aborted with out executing the /powexec command.  If there isn't an existing portal, it 'skips' the /enterbasefrompasscode command, and executes the /powexec command. When the/powexec command is executed, it enables the use of the /enterbasefrompasscode command. Then the next press of F12 executes the /enterbasefrompasscode. If you are next to an existing portal (regular zone base portal, a portal you created, or a portal someone else created), you can TP back and forth to your base all day without using a single charge. Only time you use a charge is when there isn't an existing portal available from any other source.

[Lines]

5 minutes ago, @Ghost said:

- Recharge times: potential issue. This would get pointed out rapidly in actual play on live servers, but certain TFs and mission chains still require a lot of jumping in short periods of time and the 10 minute recharges on most of these may not always cut it.

Between LRTP, Base Teleporter and Base Portal, you'll now be able to enter your base 3 times per 10 minutes.

 

That's not including the two base tp powers you can get from day jobs.

 

7 minutes ago, @Ghost said:

- Day Job Powers: these shouldn't be the best.

I disagree, they have limited charges and take the most player effort to obtain. I think they should be the best.

[QuiJon]

1 hour ago, Starforge said:

Seems to me we have way more options to use here compared to back on live. I have no issue with any of these changes.

But still less then you have right how in homecoming as they currently operate.

[Vanden]

2 minutes ago, JAMMan0000 said:

Macros are executed right to left

This is a misconception. Macros execute left to right. When you put multiple /powexec commands in one macro or bind, what happens is the client first tries to execute the first power. But then it tries to execute the next power in line, overwriting the previous attempted power execution, and then this continues for every power in the macro. This all happens virtually instantly, before the client or server can actually queue a power. You can only have one power queued at a time, and queueing a new power while another is already queued cancels the prior queue, so what ends up happening is only the power farthest to the right actually gets queued for execution.

[Starforge]

2 minutes ago, QuiJon said:

But still less then you have right how in homecoming as they currently operate.

Really? Because it seems we're getting new base teleport powers on top of being able to use all the existing ones.

[@Ghost]

4 minutes ago, Lines said:

Between LRTP, Base Teleporter and Base Portal, you'll now be able to enter your base 3 times per 10 minutes.

I think an example was mentioned upthread of Numina's having extremely frequent zone swaps. In any case, more reasonable recharges certainly wouldn't hurt.

5 minutes ago, Lines said:

I disagree, they have limited charges and take the most player effort to obtain. I think they should be the best.

I don't see how not playing the game for 4 days is more effort than... anything. It's kinda the opposite of a time investment, even.

 

And even travel aside, no Day Job bonus should be so good that it discourages you from engaging with the rest of that system, and pushes people to do it at all. The portals do that right now.

[JAMMan0000]

6 minutes ago, Vanden said:

This is a misconception. Macros execute left to right. When you put multiple /powexec commands in one macro or bind, what happens is the client first tries to execute the first power. But then it tries to execute the next power in line, overwriting the previous attempted power execution, and then this continues for every power in the macro. This all happens virtually instantly, before the client or server can actually queue a power. You can only have one power queued at a time, and queueing a new power while another is already queued cancels the prior queue, so what ends up happening is only the power farthest to the right actually gets queued for execution.

Interesting. So technically it tries to execute left to right, but as you stated, effectively executes right to left.

And its this effective execution order that prevents charges from being wasted. I can live with that 🙂

[QuiJon]

2 minutes ago, Starforge said:

Really? Because it seems we're getting new base teleport powers on top of being able to use all the existing ones.

But the over all functionality is lacking. We either face longer recharges for the most useful tools, limited charges, cost in influence, cost in time to badge etc. Giving us 5 different tools and then crossing you fingers no one has a problem or can not meet the requirements to obtain them is not as much coverage as just giving people a tool that matches what is being taken away from the one they are previously using. Something i would propose would be more like :

 

1. p2w vendor as a free power. Base transporter. Takes you alone to your base. 1-2 minute recharge 2 second activation.

2. LRT Free with one explorer accolade 10 minute zones unlocked with obtaining one badge from the zone.

3. SG Base Portal P2w vendor 1m cost opens portal for you and team to go to base 10 minute cool down. 

4. Mission transporter p2w 1m cost transports only you to your next mission door 20 minute cool down. 

5. Team mission transporter p2w 10m cost transports you and team to next mission door 30 minute cool down.

 

The day job powers become just a bonus if you earn them but not needed to get, leave in the vip pocket D portal just for shits and giggles. But in this way EVERYONE can get the most useful power for nothing just like they get now with a slash command but it wont have the exploits. Then if you want to boost that, you can do the work for the LRT but you dont need to if you dont want to but will gain you the ability to skip loading to your base to get to a new zone so is worth the time if you choose. Then SG portal every 10 minutes for sort of cheap. Mission teleporter is useful not as often but takes you strait to door. Team transport useful even less often but takes whole team to the door. 

 

So you automatically get a basic useful power and can choose to make your travel easier from their based on spending or time. 

[QuiJon]

11 minutes ago, @Ghost said:

I don't see how not playing the game for 4 days is more effort than... anything. It's kinda the opposite of a time investment, even.

No one is saying that not playing the game with that character is effort. They are saying it imposed a limitation on playing should you desire to build up that characters charges on that power. What if i am running out of charges but am trying to finish my other day job locations? Hell i would almost rather they just make it cost like 1m influence for a 30 recharge power with the 30 second timer. At least if i was running low or out of charges i dont have to park a character i might otherwise be wanting to play to get the charges filled. 

[Jimmy]

Re: all the posts about the Day Job powers.

 

Why are the day job powers the best ones?

They aren't. They have limited charges. They are balanced around having limited charges.

 

Why can't the P2W powers have the same cooldown as the day job power?

Because they don't have limited charges. They are balanced around not having limited charges.

 

Why do the day job powers have limited charges?

Because that's how day job powers work. They are small, additive, limited bonuses based on where you log out in.

 

But the day job powers are required in order to get around properly!

No, they aren’t. In any given 30 minute window you can use:

• Ouro portal 6 times
• Long Range Teleporter 3 times
• Base Transporter 3 times
• Supergroup Portal 3 times
• Mission Transporter 1 time
• Team Transporter 1 time

Without any day job powers. That's 17 quick transports in a 30 minute window, or one every 106 seconds. You are also able to actually fly, run, jump, or teleport to a base portal or other form of transport 🙂 

 

Saying the day job is required is like claiming that the Entrepreneur Crafting Discount day job bonus is required to craft anything. It's simply not true. That's just yet another bonus balanced around having limited charges.

 

But there's too many / too few different options!

That's a fair comment. As you can see in this very thread, different people want more options, and others want less. It's a fine line, and we're doing our best to make everyone happy.

 

---

 

With all that being said: The complaints about the day job powers wouldn't even exist if we had left those powers with long cooldowns. Maybe the right answer is to increase their cooldowns so they don't seem so attractive? 🙃

 

(No, we won't actually do that 😛 )

[PeregrineFalcon]

I REALLY like the new Fast Travel menu! Thank you for that.

[Lockpick]

8 minutes ago, Jimmy said:

Re: all the posts about the Day Job powers.

 

Why are the day job powers the best ones?

They aren't. It has limited charges. They are balanced around having limited charges.

 

Why can't the P2W powers have the same cooldown as the day job power?

Because they don't have limited charges. They are balanced around not having limited charges.

 

Why do the day job powers have limited charges?

Because that's how day job powers work. They are small, additive, limited bonuses based on where you log out in.

 

But the day job powers are required in order to get around properly!

No, it isn't. In any given 30 minute window you can use:

• Ouro portal 6 times
• Long Range Teleporter 3 times
• Base Transporter 3 times
• Supergroup Portal 3 times
• Mission Transporter 1 time
• Team Transporter 1 time

That's 17 quick transports in a 30 minute window, or one every 106 seconds. You are also able to actually fly, run, jump, or teleport to a base portal or other form of transport 🙂 

 

Saying the day job is required is like claiming that the Entrepreneur Crafting Discount day job bonus is required to craft anything. It's simply not true. That's just yet another bonus balanced around having limited charges.

 

But there's too many / too few different options!

That's a fair comment. As you can see in this very thread, different people want more options, and others want less. It's a fine line, and we're doing our best to make everyone happy.

 

---

 

With all that being said: The complaints about the day job powers wouldn't even exist if we had left those powers with long cooldowns. Maybe the right answer is to increase their cooldowns so they don't seem so attractive? 🙃

 

(No, we won't actually do that 😛 )

 

@Jimmy Can you answer a question around activating and canceling LRT (and other TP powers), but still having to wait for the cooldown?  Is there a way to make the cooldown start after the TP is complete, so you don't wast a cooldown when canceling the activation?

 

[Jimmy]

15 minutes ago, Lockpick said:

 

@Jimmy Can you answer a question around activating and canceling LRT (and other TP powers), but still having to wait for the cooldown?  Is there a way to make the cooldown start after the TP is complete, so you don't wast a cooldown when canceling the activation?

 

I don’t believe so. The power is considered done after the activation completes - it’s already on cooldown as the window opens.

 

If you’re losing the cooldown before the window opens though that sounds like a bug. 

[@Ghost]

32 minutes ago, Jimmy said:

Saying the day job is required is like claiming that the Entrepreneur Crafting Discount day job bonus is required to craft anything. It's simply not true.

I mean, you are totally right for how things exist on live right now. Right now there's no Day Job bonus that's so strong that I feel compelled to log out at one spot every single time to maintain it. The TP powers are so convenient with newly restricted options that it definitely feels like the correct choice is to always log out at a base portal.

 

I'm sure you could brush my feedback off as "well, that's your choice and it's wrong, not our problem." And I guess that's technically true? But I'd still argue that no other bonus is so universally valuable as fast access to a teleport/level up/vendor/crafting hub is. I'd definitely prefer to not lose out on accumulating time on other badges just because the TP is that dang good to have in your back pocket.

[macskull]

15 minutes ago, @Ghost said:

I mean, you are totally right for how things exist on live right now. Right now there's no Day Job bonus that's so strong that I feel compelled to log out at one spot every single time to maintain it. The TP powers are so convenient with newly restricted options that it definitely feels like the correct choice is to always log out at a base portal.

 

I'm sure you could brush my feedback off as "well, that's your choice and it's wrong, not our problem." And I guess that's technically true? But I'd still argue that no other bonus is so universally valuable as fast access to a teleport/level up/vendor/crafting hub is. I'd definitely prefer to not lose out on accumulating time on other badges just because the TP is that dang good to have in your back pocket.

Don't forget you're also earning charges of both the base TP power and the base portal power when you log out in at an SG base portal, effectively making that day job a 2-for-1 special. As Jimmy outlined above, you've got options already and would only really need to dip into the day job powers if the other options were on cooldown and you were in an area where traveling to some mode of transport would be prohibitive (like the Shadow Shard, but even then jumping off the islands will drop you near the zone entrance which is where the SG base portals are). Worst case you have to spend a few days logged off by an SG base portal to get some charges of those day job powers, and then you go back to whatever other location you prefer.

[Jimmy]

I don’t think there’s been enough realistic testing (ie: actually running missions over an extended period) for anyone to say one way or another if this is the case right now.

 

The data we have shows a median usage of 2 uses of the command every 10 minutes (or 6 every 30 minutes) from those who use it, which is just over 1/3rd of the quick transports you can get from all the permanent powers.

 

You can get 3 uses every 10 minutes with just the free powers (Ouro + LRT), or 4 if you spend 1m inf on the base transporter.

[Mr. Vee]

And why exactly do these powers need to be "balanced" when there's no need for travel to be a time sink in a non-subscription game? 

[Jimmy]

Because this is still City of Heroes. Travel is and always has been part of the game.
 

Plenty of games (both offline and online) with no subscriptions or micro transactions still involve travel. That’s got nothing to do with it.

[QuiJon]

1 hour ago, Jimmy said:

Ouro portal 6 times

The least useful one because it only takes you to one zone with limited exit options. 

1 hour ago, Jimmy said:

Long Range Teleporter 3 times

Which then obligates you to do badge work which honestly shouldnt be required and precludes possibly lower level toons from getting it to be useful because by game design a lower toon shouldnt be running say Peregrine Island yet but by other game design might be SKd with a higher level team. So sure in some cases might be great, for others might not be. 

1 hour ago, Lockpick said:

Base Transporter 3 times

At a 1million influence cost which again gates the ability for lower level toons or people that dont have fat stacks of cash on hand.

1 hour ago, Lockpick said:

Supergroup Portal 3 times

See above only worse, 10m influence cost but same issue gate kept behind a pay way, even if it is made up money it is money many people might need for other purposes. 

1 hour ago, Lockpick said:

Mission Transporter 1 time

1m pay wall, see above and the least useful because of the recharge time you are basically only paying for a fast travel power.

1 hour ago, Lockpick said:

Team Transporter 1 time

IMO not the most useful power unless you are on a team with other people that have it. So if you are in a active SG that do TF and SF and people buy it then great makes those times go really fast when you have to do a shard TF or something. However otherwise not really that useful at 1 per 30 minutes for solo play or on a PUG where you are the only one that has it, it really only saves a couple minutes a use. And again pay wall might gate keep it from players. 

 

I am not saying the day job is required, but it feels like the design principle you are all looking at also is assume that every one will  have everyone of these powers when in fact many players might not. Which is why i say get rid of the first "base teleport" power, combine it with the SG Portal power and make that the entry point. I think no cost but if you must no more then 1m, but less is better, and a 5minute or less recharge. (figure combining 2 powers that had 10 minute recharge makes it equally as useful as those 10 minute timers were) and then that way all players start with equal access at a usable level to replace the slash command at no cost to them. Or just leave the list as is, but cut recharge on base teleport for player to 5 minutes and make it free for every character in a SG.  THEN if they want more then that it is a choice for the player. 

 

 

 

And i am sorry i just noticed after the first quote i was selecting off Lockpicks post after that, this thread was not directed at him. Sorry.