Poll: How do you feel about knockback?

[Super Atom]

I'm more for just adding more IO sets that give more options for KB>KD instead of hard changing it at this point, even if i think knockback isn't great and mostly just funny because of ragdoll.

[Andreah]

On 7/14/2021 at 12:05 PM, SwitchFade said:

I think KB and repel are not great

I have a kin/ defender with repel slotted for knockdown, and I love it. If I could not slot it to remove knockback, I would not even take the power.

[SwitchFade]

21 minutes ago, Andreah said:

I have a kin/ defender with repel slotted for knockdown, and I love it. If I could not slot it to remove knockback, I would not even take the power.

I think you may have missed the joke...

[Andreah]

54 minutes ago, SwitchFade said:

I think you may have missed the joke...

Could be. 🙂

[Doomguide2005]

     To hell with knockback, NERF REGEN!

 

 

[Teirusu]

Having read Powerhouses previous thoughts on the subject, I feel that their shouldn't be some global way to shut it off without giving Knockback some additional helpful mechanic first.

 

The best solution, I feel, would be to give knockback an additional tick of damage dependent upon the magnitude of the KB.  The mob would take that tick of damage upon landing.  It's pretty similar to how CO has it, really.  That way, slotting knockback enhancements would actually increase the amount of damage the power does, up to a point, along with flinging them further away.

 

That way, people would have to choose between the extra damage or globally turning all of their knockback into knockdown, or using the existing IOs to selectively turn KB-to-KD on just some of their powers.

 

Some various sets and powers could use some tweaks to knockback powers, but otherwise, I think this solution would solve most of everyone's major issues.

[Koopak]

38 minutes ago, Teirusu said:

Having read Powerhouses previous thoughts on the subject, I feel that their shouldn't be some global way to shut it off without giving Knockback some additional helpful mechanic first.

 

The best solution, I feel, would be to give knockback an additional tick of damage dependent upon the magnitude of the KB.  The mob would take that tick of damage upon landing.  It's pretty similar to how CO has it, really.  That way, slotting knockback enhancements would actually increase the amount of damage the power does, up to a point, along with flinging them further away.

 

That way, people would have to choose between the extra damage or globally turning all of their knockback into knockdown, or using the existing IOs to selectively turn KB-to-KD on just some of their powers.

 

Some various sets and powers could use some tweaks to knockback powers, but otherwise, I think this solution would solve most of everyone's major issues.

I WANT to support this wholeheartedly, but this actually exasperates one of the primary complaints. With KB made demonstratively better than KB->KD due to damage you set up a fight between two metas. The solo optimal damage meta, and the group AoE meta. This change, as much as I LOVE it, would encourage more strife between KB users and KB haters, not less.

Now i don't think that issue is THAT bad, but i primarily play on Everlasting where this sort of thing seems to be less important to the playerbase than their next costume change sooooo.... If people are more chill on other servers than some of these threads have implied, then pack it, ship it. Otherwise yeah, issue.

[huang3721]

The possible answer must exhaustive, for example:

1. How do you feel about knockback

 - Love

- Hate

- Neutral

 

It is also possible to use ordered category:

2. Should players be able to toggle it as wanted/needed? ( 0 = disagree 5= agree)

0 1 2 3 4 5 

 

3. Turn all knockback to knockdown?( 0 = disagree 5= agree)

0 1 2 3 4 5 

 

Separate different ideas, to make them easier to understand. However, Keep an eye for questions that influences other questions.

4. Is knockback broken/unbalanced/whatever?

-Yes. Get rid of it

-Yes, but tweaks would be okay

-No. Keep it as it is

 

edit 

Everyone uses one question for every poll.

Does this forum only support one question for each poll?

Edited July 17, 2021 by huang3721
question attached

[Triumphant]

I love knockback but I also think players should have the option to toggle it on and off.  Watching mobs ricochet off of walls, floors, and ceilings is one of the coolest things about this game, but not everyone agrees with me about that.  More choice = better.  Well, that's my opinion, anyway.

[Andreah]

9 hours ago, Triumphant said:

I love knockback but I also think players should have the option to toggle it on and off.  Watching mobs ricochet off of walls, floors, and ceilings is one of the coolest things about this game, but not everyone agrees with me about that.  More choice = better.  Well, that's my opinion, anyway.

I could see an option to allow players to toggle their own KB to KD, but that negates much of the value of the IO's that do that now.

 

Would you have the toggle be by power, or for the entire build?

 

And what if the team leader could set a team toggle for KB to KD? 

[Galaxy Brain]

20 hours ago, Koopak said:

I WANT to support this wholeheartedly, but this actually exasperates one of the primary complaints. With KB made demonstratively better than KB->KD due to damage you set up a fight between two metas. The solo optimal damage meta, and the group AoE meta. This change, as much as I LOVE it, would encourage more strife between KB users and KB haters, not less.

Now i don't think that issue is THAT bad, but i primarily play on Everlasting where this sort of thing seems to be less important to the playerbase than their next costume change sooooo.... If people are more chill on other servers than some of these threads have implied, then pack it, ship it. Otherwise yeah, issue.

 

I've shared similar ideas before, and I think it'd be a welcome change if the Knockback is effective. Like, if an explosion yeets all the minions and defeats them, whod actually be mad when only stragglers survive?

[SwitchFade]

I guess some people are truly irked by any reduction in cluster-smashing. I couldn't care less what an energy blaster knocks about, it's neat to see. I can taunt, hop, blast, hold, teleport, or pull any knocked back MOB at will.

 

Barring peace bringer super stomp, KB in this game is fine. What ,exactly, is so terrible about it?

 

I have yet, since issue 3, encountered any real discontent with it. Rare, and I do mean rare, comments from a single person, perhaps once a year. So you're scrapping a boss that gets KBd? Hop over. So you're tanking foes that get KBd? Taunt em, hop and attack. So you're blasting foes that get KBd? Yeah, so? Blast more. So, you're controlling foes that get KBd? So? They're still under your thumb.

 

So your zergfest clear time slows down? Ah, now we see. I see no reason to meta-change a core apart of the game for the few reasons I see proffered, in all the time I have seen them. I'd welcome a restatement of factual reasons why KB is so terribly DooOOooOoommmMMmm. So we can discuss and I can argue counterpoint, refuting them.

 

Which is why I'll say again, KB is fine as is, no change vote.

Edited July 18, 2021 by SwitchFade

[SwitchFade]

And, there's a chasm a country mile wide between "annoying" and "broken, needs correcting."

 

I find Sonic blast primary annoying, but that doesn't mean the sound is broken and needing fixing. I actually made a sonic blaster, because my infant son is vocal. The toon is an homage to his vocal prowess and volume, a Screamy Screamsalot, as it were.

[Koopak]

1 hour ago, SwitchFade said:

I guess some people are truly irked by any reduction in cluster-smashing. I couldn't care less what an energy blaster knocks about, it's neat to see. I can taunt, hop, blast, hold, teleport, or pull any knocked back MOB at will.

 

Barring peace bringer super stomp, KB in this game is fine. What ,exactly, is so terrible about it?

 

I have yet, since issue 3, encountered any real discontent with it. Rare, and I do mean rare, comments from a single person, perhaps once a year. So you're scrapping a boss that gets KBd? Hop over. So you're tanking foes that get KBd? Taunt em, hop and attack. So you're blasting foes that get KBd? Yeah, so? Blast more. So, you're controlling foes that get KBd? So? They're still under your thumb.

 

So your zergfest clear time slows down? Ah, now we see. I see no reason to meta-change a core apart of the game for the few reasons I see proffered, in all the time I have seen them. I'd welcome a restatement of factual reasons why KB is so terribly DooOOooOoommmMMmm. So we can discuss and I can argue counterpoint, refuting them.

 

Which is why I'll say again, KB is fine as is, no change vote.

My thoughts for the most part minus some of the sass. I really don't think KB is that big an issue and the current "solution" is fine. Any other option, save maybe Teirusu's suggestion of kb damage, threatens to make what few issues there are much worse.

[Triumphant]

13 hours ago, Andreah said:

I could see an option to allow players to toggle their own KB to KD, but that negates much of the value of the IO's that do that now.

 

Would you have the toggle be by power, or for the entire build?

 

And what if the team leader could set a team toggle for KB to KD? 

 

Those are all fair questions, I suppose.  I guess I don't view things like the KB to KD in force feedback as worth wasting an IO slot on.  I do get that keeping the mobs grouped together for AOE's instead of having them bounce around all over is an advantage, it just bugs me a little to have to buy and slot an IO for each power if I want to do that. 

 

I don't know, maybe I'm just a little raw about it because I really like energy blast/manipulation and those two sets have lots of KB?  When I would want to toggle the power off isn't for me, you see.  It's for when I join a pickup group and the majority of the group doesn't like KB effects, I might want to turn it off as a courtesy to everyone else for a while.  It irks me to have to buy and slot IO's when I'm doing this for someone else's play enjoyment, rather than my own  (Again, I love knockback.  Yes, I do have to chase the mobs around, but the effect of the visuals is so satisfying I find this entirely worth the effort).

 

Ideally, having the toggle be by power would be most satisfying, but I would settle for a single switch that would toggle it off on all the powers at once.  And yes, I'm cool with the Team Leader having the ability to toggle it off.  If I ask for an invite to their team, I feel it's reasonable for the team leader to have the freedom to set the ground  rules.

 

Anyway, just some thoughts.  I'm not like super aggravated by the IO requirement and if it doesn't ever change, I still love KB and will continue to play sets that have that effect, as it simply makes the battles feel more like comic book super brawls to me.

 

I don't actually know if anything I just wrote made sense.  I had insomnia last night and didn't get any sleep whatever, so feel free to ignore this reply if the content is gibberish.  😛

[Mezmera]

I don't have a problem most ways with knockback.  It kind of has the same stereotyping as confuse powers.  Knockback can be great fun, especially the Nova nuke, watching all those bodies fly, I just wish the one killed got sent flying and the ones left alive got knocked down in place. 

 

Other than the massive aoe knockback and the abusively broken bonfire I think knockback is fine.  So I'm all for minor tweaks to it, but it doesn't bother me as it is currently.  

[Black Zot]

On 7/18/2021 at 12:23 PM, Galaxy Brain said:

 

I've shared similar ideas before, and I think it'd be a welcome change if the Knockback is effective. Like, if an explosion yeets all the minions and defeats them, whod actually be mad when only stragglers survive?

 

For starters, the folks who have to deal with/chase down said stragglers.  Bearing in mind that the things most likely to survive an AoE kaboom are also the ones most likely to kill you back.

[srmalloy]

On 7/17/2021 at 8:46 PM, Triumphant said:

I love knockback but I also think players should have the option to toggle it on and off.  Watching mobs ricochet off of walls, floors, and ceilings is one of the coolest things about this game, but not everyone agrees with me about that.

And the context affects opinion, too. Watching someone run into the middle of a spawn, fire off a PBAoE nuke, and send mobs flying around the room/area can be as annoying as someone rushing into an area and firing off an area immobilize/hold -- both of them leave mobs scattered around, rather than conveniently gathered up for AoE attacks. And if you don't have a convenient wall/corner to backstop a cone AoE, you're going to be spreading mobs away from the melee team members. But completely converting KB into KD also prevents using the KB to corral up mobs for the AoEs.

 

Part of the problem is the increase in "crush everything as fast as possible" attitudes, where some people bitch about anything that interferes with their ideas about how a fight should go ("you're making me move 40' to finish these mobs!")... without ever having discussed it with their team. I remember, back on Live, the tanks who wanted to orchestrate the entirety of each fight, insisting that no one else do anything until they'd gathered up one or more spawns, prohibiting the use of powers with KB if they moved mobs away from the tight cluster the tank had built (and been kicked for hitting the wrong key and tossing mobs out of the cluster, even though they landed defeated), specifying which mobs had to be attacked first... basically, the whole pre-attack planning crap from the iconic "Leeerrroooy Jeeeennnkiiiiinnnnsss" video. There are very few engagements in CoH where that sort of planning is necessary, and certainly not J. Random Spawn. Worrying about some mobs getting tossed around is getting too deep into the weeds.

 

And then there are the specific tactical uses -- my Blasters with single-target KB attacks use them as 'get away from me!' counters -- making them get up again is a short 'soft CC' (although the occasional mob that gets knocked away and doesn't fall down is annoying), but more importantly, a mob's ranged attack(s) are usually less damaging than their melee attack(s). And separating them gives the other team members time to pick them up/off.

[Naraka]

On 7/18/2021 at 12:25 PM, SwitchFade said:

I guess some people are truly irked by any reduction in cluster-smashing. I couldn't care less what an energy blaster knocks about, it's neat to see. I can taunt, hop, blast, hold, teleport, or pull any knocked back MOB at will.

 

Barring peace bringer super stomp, KB in this game is fine. What ,exactly, is so terrible about it?

 

I have yet, since issue 3, encountered any real discontent with it. Rare, and I do mean rare, comments from a single person, perhaps once a year. So you're scrapping a boss that gets KBd? Hop over. So you're tanking foes that get KBd? Taunt em, hop and attack. So you're blasting foes that get KBd? Yeah, so? Blast more. So, you're controlling foes that get KBd? So? They're still under your thumb.

 

So your zergfest clear time slows down? Ah, now we see. I see no reason to meta-change a core apart of the game for the few reasons I see proffered, in all the time I have seen them. I'd welcome a restatement of factual reasons why KB is so terribly DooOOooOoommmMMmm. So we can discuss and I can argue counterpoint, refuting them.

 

Which is why I'll say again, KB is fine as is, no change vote.

 

The funny thing is, I understand why people get flustered about some KB and how it can hinder some battle strategies... But like you said, it hardly causes and stress beyond needing to use a couple of more clicks. In a game where players frequently complain that enemies die too fast and some people can't use their powers before slapping corpses, needing to use some more clicks is hardly an issue.

 

As much as I complain about power creep and the meta, I don't really want to remove it (although talking about removing it is entertainment for the whole family) but at the same time, you can't deny the meta is destructive and harms the game. Even a smoker knows their smoking habit has it's negative repercussions. 

[MsSmart]

Knockback and knockdown each has its uses.

 

A soloing support class, would rather have knockback and keep the mobs away!

While Melee types would rather knock them down, rather than chase them all over the map!

 

So at the end, it should be an option, in the options menu to have the effect to knockdown and knockback. In real life, we can make such a choice when strike something by choosing the direction on how we hit something, so this is not like magic, just a courtesy from the devs to players.

 

Sue

[BrandX]

I don't mind it, but I know other players do, so I try to minimize it on my builds.  I wouldn't change it or make sets able to turn it on and off (unless it's a new set that's setup to that).

 

Don't want it, don't play it or use IOs to suppress it.

[BurtHutt]

I absolutely hate KB. 99.9% of the time I team up in CoX and it is a tad annoying when a group is nicely herded and then it gets scattered by some KB power(s). I don't rage over it nor is it something I'll comment about to the team but I don't like it. Yes, I also acknowledge some players like the KB. 

 

I'd like to see a switch where players can turn the KB power to either KB or KD. I know KB can be handy especially in solo play. 

 

I'll also add that I would not play any of my Khelds if there wasn't a KB to KD IO in all of the KB powers. Khelds are cursed with a large amount of KB.

 

Finally, it would be nice not to have to spend a slot on that KB to KD IO and instead have a switch that you can easily click on as you run around the City. 

[Outrider_01]

Stop grouping, problem solved.  None issue

 

*tosses the mic and walks away*

[arcane]

On 7/18/2021 at 11:25 AM, SwitchFade said:

I guess some people are truly irked by any reduction in cluster-smashing. I couldn't care less what an energy blaster knocks about, it's neat to see. I can taunt, hop, blast, hold, teleport, or pull any knocked back MOB at will.

 

Barring peace bringer super stomp, KB in this game is fine. What ,exactly, is so terrible about it?

 

I have yet, since issue 3, encountered any real discontent with it. Rare, and I do mean rare, comments from a single person, perhaps once a year. So you're scrapping a boss that gets KBd? Hop over. So you're tanking foes that get KBd? Taunt em, hop and attack. So you're blasting foes that get KBd? Yeah, so? Blast more. So, you're controlling foes that get KBd? So? They're still under your thumb.

 

So your zergfest clear time slows down? Ah, now we see. I see no reason to meta-change a core apart of the game for the few reasons I see proffered, in all the time I have seen them. I'd welcome a restatement of factual reasons why KB is so terribly DooOOooOoommmMMmm. So we can discuss and I can argue counterpoint, refuting them.

 

Which is why I'll say again, KB is fine as is, no change vote.

Yep, KB is a minor annoyance at worst. If it’s actually holding you back in a serious way... the problem ain’t KB.