Trollers, Fenders and the Useless Abilities Could Get A Once or Twice Over

[Bill Z Bubba]

My Shield/EM tank used darkest night during her Werner Rules ITF run. Served her well.

[Black Zot]

42 minutes ago, Cobalt Arachne said:

 

That being said people who like things right where they are now shouldn't be worried either.
We're dedicated to ensuring that everyone can enjoy this game the way they like moving forward, there will be options to move the difficulty ceiling up for those who are looking for it, but the floor where it exists isn't moving.

 

I'll believe this when I see it.  Similar promises in other games and communities I've been involved with generally turned out to be false.

[Psyonico]

51 minutes ago, Cobalt Arachne said:

People who like a challenge and feel that the current the endgame has become too homogenized are in for lots of good news and things that will kill their Tier 4 incarnates and 50+5 IO builds. 

 

Are you making 801 content official lore?

[Sovera]

53 minutes ago, Cobalt Arachne said:

I've been roused from my den of evil. 👀

People who like a challenge and feel that the current the endgame has become too homogenized are in for lots of good news and things that will kill their Tier 4 incarnates and 50+5 IO builds. 

That being said people who like things right where they are now shouldn't be worried either.
We're dedicated to ensuring that everyone can enjoy this game the way they like moving forward, there will be options to move the difficulty ceiling up for those who are looking for it, but the floor where it exists isn't moving.

 

Did you hire Linea?

[Cobalt Arachne]

1 minute ago, Black Zot said:

 

I'll believe this when I see it.  Similar promises in other games and communities I've been involved with generally turned out to be false.

Fair enough! You're free to quote me on that when Page 3 goes to testing; I've been very explicit to ensure existing content's difficulty perimeters don't get impacted. Insofar as my new difficulty balancing work is concerned.

That being said, what I said doesn't apply strictly regarding brand new content or future self-contained new difficulty modes of existing content that might be created down the road.

[Cobalt Arachne]

Just now, Sovera said:

 

Did you hire Linea?

I've run Linea's arcs with them 1-on-1 and discussed it with them in voice chat. I'm very impressed with what they've managed to create within the limitations of the AE, but we both agree their method of difficulty isn't ideal for the mainstream content, but I'm very glad their content exists to fulfill that niche for the players who want that style of difficulty.

[Dona Eis Requiem]

59 minutes ago, Cobalt Arachne said:

there will be options to move the difficulty ceiling up for those who are looking for it, but the floor where it exists isn't moving.

 

Couldn't have asked for a better approach. Thank you!

[Piecemeal]

23 minutes ago, Black Zot said:

 

I'll believe this when I see it.  Similar promises in other games and communities I've been involved with generally turned out to be false.

 

We hope to prove you wrong in delightful new ways!

[Czar]

Great feedback and feelings. THank you to all who have shared.

[Mezmera]

51 minutes ago, Cobalt Arachne said:

I've run Linea's arcs with them 1-on-1 and discussed it with them in voice chat. I'm very impressed with what they've managed to create within the limitations of the AE, but we both agree their method of difficulty isn't ideal for the mainstream content, but I'm very glad their content exists to fulfill that niche for the players who want that style of difficulty.

 

I've done a few of those.  Some are just outrageously tough.  Like the ones where the mob is all EB's with harsh debuffs and an AV sprinkled into each one.  All those AV's are a bit much.  

 

There's one in Linea's creation that I felt would be a good bar.  It was a map full of mobs of Bosses, Lts and an EB with beam rifles and decent debuffs.  There was roving ambushes that really messed you up if you weren't paying attention.  It was a strong plucky adventure without being death on a stick so long as you were capable in maximizing your abilities.  The worst thing about it was the ugly Arachnos map.  

 

I was set for +4/8 on that but if there was a way for a mission like that to identify when you actually have X amount in your team and scale it without spawning mobs of all AV's I'd think that would be a good benchmark.  

 

Looking forward to what you have in store for my dom.  She hasn't chipped a nail in a while.

[Piecemeal]

29 minutes ago, Mezmera said:

 

I've done a few of those.  Some are just outrageously tough.  Like the ones where the mob is all EB's with harsh debuffs and an AV sprinkled into each one.  All those AV's are a bit much.  

 

There's one in Linea's creation that I felt would be a good bar.  It was a map full of mobs of Bosses, Lts and an EB with beam rifles and decent debuffs.  There was roving ambushes that really messed you up if you weren't paying attention.  It was a strong plucky adventure without being death on a stick so long as you were capable in maximizing your abilities.  The worst thing about it was the ugly Arachnos map.  

 

I was set for +4/8 on that but if there was a way for a mission like that to identify when you actually have X amount in your team and scale it without spawning mobs of all AV's I'd think that would be a good benchmark.  

 

Looking forward to what you have in store for my dom.  She hasn't chipped a nail in a while.

 

Your dom... good as she might be... will want friends to support her at 52 and beyond. 🙂

[Mezmera]

14 minutes ago, Piecemeal said:

 

Your dom... good as she might be... will want friends to support her at 52 and beyond. 🙂

 

Well if earlier that you're suggesting control is being tweaked up you will be making my dom better.  So you better tell those +52 NPCs if they are ever to see my dom THEY better bring friends.  😜

[Miss Magical]

2 hours ago, Black Zot said:

 

I'll believe this when I see it.  Similar promises in other games and communities I've been involved with generally turned out to be false.

I don't think anyone needs to be concerned about this. Games inevitably get easier as they age - it's almost a law of thermodynamics. With the passage of time, successive buffs and "QoL" (ie. difficulty reduction) changes degrade the integrity of the gaming experience, and the temptation to appeal to the instant-gratification crowd gets too strong for developers to resist. I can't think of a single MMO that has managed to consistently maintain its difficulty floor rather than allowing it to sink over time.

[ForeverLaxx]

3 hours ago, Cobalt Arachne said:

I've been very explicit to ensure existing content's difficulty perimeters don't get impacted. Insofar as my new difficulty balancing work is concerned.

That being said, what I said doesn't apply strictly regarding brand new content or future self-contained new difficulty modes of existing content that might be created down the road.

My biggest concern, and one you probably have no direct control over without just plain removing options (something I don't want, either), is player tendency to take the "new top" and make that line the new baseline. If you can't handle things at the top, then you're just "not allowed" in the first place regardless of where you go.

 

Admittedly, CoH has much less of this mentality than other games, even when the game was still Live. The "play your way, at your own pace" stance has been held mostly intact by both the players and the devs as it's one of the primary draws. That said, as the game moves forward into the future and begins to pick up newer players with different expectations, as stated previously, my concern becomes one of enforcement. Too often, when difficulties are turned up, the hardest one becomes the only one and not wanting to (or not able to) step up to that level is met with derision and exclusion from activities.

[Cobalt Arachne]

21 minutes ago, ForeverLaxx said:

My biggest concern, and one you probably have no direct control over without just plain removing options (something I don't want, either), is player tendency to take the "new top" and make that line the new baseline. If you can't handle things at the top, then you're just "not allowed" in the first place regardless of where you go.

 

Admittedly, CoH has much less of this mentality than other games, even when the game was still Live. The "play your way, at your own pace" stance has been held mostly intact by both the players and the devs as it's one of the primary draws. That said, as the game moves forward into the future and begins to pick up newer players with different expectations, as stated previously, my concern becomes one of enforcement. Too often, when difficulties are turned up, the hardest one becomes the only one and not wanting to (or not able to) step up to that level is met with derision and exclusion from activities.

Which is a fair concern!

My design aim is not actually going for 'difficulty' as much as it's been content that 'every role feels like they're contributing to the win' while always keeping City of Heroes mantra of 'bring anybody who asks for an invite to the team' style at it's heart.

Inclusivity is at the core of all my decisions, and part of that element has to come from the difficulty in order for it truly matter.
I don't think there's any denying that in many cases right now the 'endgame' level content leaves very little to do for control and support roles, and those types of players often feel like they're contributing very little to their team's success when everyone has inherent defense caps and everything dies so quickly that controlling it serves little purpose when you could've brought a damage AT instead and helped more.

The benchmark to achieve is a level of challenge players can choose for themselves that makes every member of the team's contributions worthwhile to some extent no matter what role you bring, and right now some roles are extremely unrewarding to play.

What does support bring to the team when everyone on the team is already defense capped and will take no damage anyway? What value does a controller bring when the entire mob is dead in half a rotation and their control powers haven't even recharged before the mob after is nearly dead too? These roles don't contribute enough to the success of their team right now, and that hurts how rewarding they feel.

Part of that involves enemies that are actually threatening and hardy enough that control/support players feel like they're contributing to the success of their team just as much as the blasters are because the team needs support to help survive and the team is glad the held enemies aren't hurting them.

Edit: To make this on-topic; 😛 Many powers that are 'useless' right now are only so because the elements that they are very helpful against have been made nearly extinct at max level by how powerful players have become.

[ForeverLaxx]

2 minutes ago, Cobalt Arachne said:

Part of that involves enemies that are actually threatening and hardy enough that control/support players feel like they're contributing to the success of their team just as much as the blasters are because the team needs support to help survive and the team is glad the held enemies aren't hurting them

I'm mostly curious how this plays out in a way that doesn't feel cheap or overly punishing to ATs/Powersets that don't offer ways to lock down foes beyond simply defeating them faster. I'm going to hold a bit of skeptical optimism about this, personally. I understand the goals you're going for, but too often, attempts to make a game more "inclusive" of previously undesirable characters ends up translating into a "requirement" of previously undesirable characters. Or worse still, people just change their builds and the previously undesirable characters remain undesirable once you spend enough on the market.

 

Hopefully things work out and my concerns are assuaged.

[Coyotedancer]

I have to agree with Laxx here, and I have the same reservations. 

 

To give a little context... I mostly play this game with my nephews and their mom... They've only been playing for a few months and are absolutely NOT in l33t pro-gamer territory where City is concerned. (CoyoteSib-in-Law can only navigates using keyboard tank controls. It took her over a month to learn how to move her camera around to look up, something that finally let her fly at altitudes greater than ground level. I'm not kidding. 😅)  One of the reasons FCM and I pulled them into this game was its very "casual friendly" nature, both in terms of the gameplay and the community. 

 

My concern is that chasing too much after the 'City of Dark Souls'-style demand for MOARL33T will eventually alter that casual culture, even if the (now-considered "scrub mode") ancient content still exists somewhere in the background.  

 

 

Edited September 8, 2021 by Coyotedancer

[Cobalt Arachne]

1 minute ago, Coyotedancer said:

I have to agree with Laxx here, and I have the same reservations. 

 

I mostly play this game with my nephews and their mom... They've only been playing for a few months and are absolutely NOT in l33t pro-gamer territory where City is concerned. (CoyoteSib-in-Law can only navigates using keyboard tank controls. It took her over a month to learn how to move her camera around to look up, something that finally let her fly at altitudes greater than ground level. I'm not kidding. 😅)  One of the reasons FCM and I pulled them into this game was it's very "casual friendly" nature, both in terms of the gameplay and the community. 

 

My concern is that chasing too much after the 'City of Dark Souls'-style demand for MOARL33T will eventually alter that casual culture, even if the (now-considered "scrub mode") ancient content still exists somewhere in the background.  

We aren't changing the difficulty floors, and the new content has been tailored to fall into brackets depending on the experience you want to have, if anyone likes the way the game is right now, where they can play it without really thinking much, the option to do so will continue to exist.

[skoryy]

2 minutes ago, Cobalt Arachne said:

We aren't changing the difficulty floors, and the new content has been tailored to fall into brackets depending on the experience you want to have, if anyone likes the way the game is right now, where they can play it without really thinking much, the option to do so will continue to exist.

 

Taking a page from the FFXIV page is a smart move.  (Or did FFXIV take a page from CoH?)   The key, of course, is making both rewarding in their own rights to keep both crowds content and the drama at a minimum.

[Luminara]

I say "bacon" once and you two go on a posting frenzy.

 

@Jimmy, put something in their kibble bowls.  You monster.

 

[Greycat]

10 hours ago, Czar said:

 

PB & WS: Fer crying out loud! Just switch the KB to KD on these guys and be done with it. If the player wants KB then they can enhnace it for KB and get the team ire for it.

 

 

 

No. Never. Ever.

 

You don't like it, deal with it on your own by slotting to remove it. I shouldn't have to slot to return to current, very useful functionality.  

 

Honestly, the OP's list sounds more like "powers I don't understand."

Edited September 8, 2021 by Greycat

[Cobalt Arachne]

20 minutes ago, ForeverLaxx said:

I'm mostly curious how this plays out in a way that doesn't feel cheap or overly punishing to ATs/Powersets that don't offer ways to lock down foes beyond simply defeating them faster. I'm going to hold a bit of skeptical optimism about this, personally. I understand the goals you're going for, but too often, attempts to make a game more "inclusive" of previously undesirable characters ends up translating into a "requirement" of previously undesirable characters. Or worse still, people just change their builds and the previously undesirable characters remain undesirable once you spend enough on the market.

 

Hopefully things work out and my concerns are assuaged.

The goal is organic inclusion; Content where bringing a Controller feels nice and you feel like you're helping your team win without it being 'These enemies cannot be defeated unless held'. We're working on finding suitable grey-tones that help accommodate vs. extremes that force hands.

The goal is far more granular than 'make bad things desirable' and that has never been the goal; I don't work on player power balance, just content design, and things were designed with broad role value in mind, not necessarily with any kind of 'make bottom tier things better' mentality. Granted, I am sure some people will see anything that challenges the dominance of a meta they're comfortably sitting at the top of as exactly that.

We can have 'support/control roles can contribute to a team in a worthwhile and rewarding way for players who enjoy those styles of gameplay' without it becoming a black/white issue. A space where the most valuable thing to bring might not be another Fire/Fire Blaster is healthy for the game as a whole.

[MHertz]

As long as Defenders and Controllers can solo more efficiently than an Embalmed Cadaver, it'll be good.

[Glacier Peak]

1 minute ago, MHertz said:

As long as Defenders and Controllers can solo more efficiently than an Embalmed Cadaver, it'll be good.

[A Cat]

2 hours ago, Cobalt Arachne said:

The goal is organic inclusion; Content where bringing a Controller feels nice and you feel like you're helping your team win without it being 'These enemies cannot be defeated unless held'. We're working on finding suitable grey-tones that help accommodate vs. extremes that force hands.

Is this going to be kind of like how Hami works? One thing among many I like about Hami (just finished another one, lol) is how the green mitos work. Yeah, you can DPS them to death, but you need a decent amount or it will take awhile. Or you can hold them and they get deleted in 3 seconds once they have been held.