Dedicated Archetypes

[Ukase]

On 9/21/2021 at 10:40 PM, Diantane said:

Often I'll see a tank or a defender that has trained a lot of their early attacks. Like they are going to play just like a tank/scrapper or defender/blaster (50/50). The problem with that is since the attacks are in their secondary power-set, they will be weaker than a primary set would be. So they have become a "jack of all trades, but master of none."

 

When I play an archetype, I dedicate myself. If I'm a defender my job is to support the team.

Emphasis added by me. 
This is the way YOU see your defender. I do not see my defender in this light. Not at all. My defender dishes out a nice damage bonus when solo. It's the primary reason I would make a defender rather than a corruptor. My job is not to support the team. My job is to take out the enemy as fast as I can. Now, to be fair, depending on which defender I'm on, the strategy and tactics used will vary. On my dark/dark, I will just snipe them from a distance, toss in some tentacles and dark blast, and snipe again. Maybe toss in a tar patch if it's a +2 foe or a boss. My rad/fire will have a different approach altogether. 

I do not worry about my team. They are all presumably grown up, capable of thought and have the same tools at their disposal as I do. They may not have the time to invest in learning mids, but they should still be able to absorb various build strategies through osmosis, if by no other means. To only build a primary in the earlier levels is ....viable, but it's by no means the only way one should play. I would also submit that it's not optimal. 

The forums are filled with folks who love teaming. They may see it as "the whole is greater than the sum of the parts". But, if each individual number is higher, that sum will result in an even greater whole value. In a nutshell, if you build your character where it's great solo - capable of using both primary, secondary and power pool powers - then the entire team will likely do better - if your ability to play that playstyle is any good. Playstyle is relevant to a discussion like this.  

This may be a poor example, but consider a video game like Centipede or Pac-Man. There is only one control - a track ball, or a a joy stick, respectively. It's much easier for a player to do well in these two games than a game like Defender or Star Gate that has 7 controls/buttons to manipulate in a timely fashion. Those with primary focus only, like a taunt-bot or a buff-focused defender - they just have to do one thing. The tank doesn't worry about attacking, only finding teammates with decreasing hp, and taunting the offending npcs to the best of their character's ability. Fine for the tank. Makes it easy. Until it doesn't because a teammate accidentally auto-fires an extra group, surpassing the tank's aggro cap. 
The buff-focused defender is then over-run, dies almost instantly because the player never bothered with slotting any defenses or resists. 

Contrast that with the competent defender who's balanced his build, has the fighting pool, combat jumping, super speed - a nice kb proc to avoid most knockback, the combat jumping to avoid most immobilizations, and the fight pool with tough and weave to avoid a number of those hits and to resist those hits that do come in. And, can still use debuffs or buffs to mitigate the incoming damage when the tanks aggro cap is exceded. 

So, please, do not give such poor advice to newer players when you're still a newer player yourself. You have much to learn grasshopper, as you are no doubt reading in the replies to your post. 
And don't take these words personally. We were all newer players once, and thought certain things were a great way to play - but learned that we don't know everything. We make mistakes, we learn, we grow. 
Your words were not wrong, per se - but they were not right for everyone, thus, they are not right. 

 

[Ukase]

On 9/22/2021 at 1:53 AM, Diantane said:

Sure, you can do anything you want in this game. So I did and saw the difference. As it was said up top, not all tanks can take alphas no matter how good their defense is set up. I've tried half of them. Some were better than others. My first was a WP tank . He could take alphas until he was 30, then he lost the edge. Rad tank was pretty good too for awhile.

 

It was said above that you can't dedicate a character yet you can. Its already been done many times by myself. You get every primary power as soon as it's available. Average builds can never do this. I looked at player's info and saw see the powers they took and skipped.

 

If I took all those kin powers on my mm, my beast mastery wouldn't be so "mastery."

Every tank can take an alpha. There is no "one-shot" defeats in coh. It's the second and third shot that can get you - but any tank can handle an alpha - except perhaps the tank that forgot or simply chose not to select an armor power or didn't slot it properly. That's not the tank's fault if it can't. It's the player's fault. 

It's fine if you wish to play this way - it may suit your playstyle, and how you see your role in that AT. But I promise you, you're painting yourself in a corner when you can easily paint the room entirely and leave through a door. Or, another way - don't build your characters into a box, unless you just like the box and are comfortable in that box. I am too big for the box. I need more room. And even a bigger box is too cramped. I want no ceiling beyond that imposed by game. No walls. 

[Hew]

27 minutes ago, Ukase said:

When I play an archetype, I dedicate myself. If I'm a defender my job is to support the team.

(not Ukase's post)

 

I have a fender that supports just herself, but primarily, she is set for self support (near perma- max damage, perma max resist). The rest of the team getting near perma overgrowth and perma +res is just an added bonus, but definitely not her target. Those bonuses are nothing to sneeze at though.

[Carnifax]

11 minutes ago, Hew said:

(not Ukase's post)

 

I have a fender that supports just herself, but primarily, she is set for self support (near perma- max damage, perma max resist). The rest of the team getting near perma overgrowth and perma +res is just an added bonus, but definitely not her target. Those bonuses are nothing to sneeze at though.

A lot of the more modern Defender sets are good like this. Time is the same "I'll buff mostly for me, but I'll probably spill some on you". 

 

Forcefield, Sonic, Emp really need for modernizing so they're fun for you as well as the team. 

[Ukase]

1 hour ago, Carnifax said:

Forcefield, Sonic, Emp really need for modernizing so they're fun for you as well as the team. 

Certainly emp and FF could use some love - but with Sonic Dispersion, capping resistance is fairly simple. Gotta wait a few levels to get it - but for me, it's quite nice. I wouldn't say no to more love for it though.

[Dazl]

As Ukase was pointing out, play style is a big factor. When I play my grav/kinetic controller I lean heavy on kinetics secondary. I run repel with a kb->kd as a shield (which is a form of control) get in there with the tank then buff, heal and control as required. 
 

Defender play styles are completely different depending on their powers. Empathy vs Storm for example. Empathy is buffing and healing while Storm is all about damage mitigation so you don’t need so much healing.

 

Best thing you can do to support your team is know how to play your character’s competently.

[arcane]

1 minute ago, Dazl said:

Storm is all about damage

Fixed slightly 🙂

[Without_Pause]

18 minutes ago, arcane said:

Fixed slightly 🙂

Storm is great for debuffs. I saw a video all an almost all Corr Water ITF and there were a number of /storm sets used. 

Edited September 24, 2021 by Without_Pause

[Dazl]

Storm is great, but a mess in the wrong hands.

[ninja surprise]

On 9/21/2021 at 9:40 PM, Diantane said:

The same goes for the tank. A 50/50 tank will be weak on a team. They won't do much damage and die just like any other player. 

 

This is only true if the tanker isn't using any IO sets and the tank took one of the weaker armors that requires you to take all the primary powers. 

It is not true at all if the person knows how to build a good tank, skips the useless powers, and gets the set bonuses from IO sets in the attacks that add survivability.

 

 

On 9/21/2021 at 9:40 PM, Diantane said:

Those that are dedicated Defenders that heal very well, will bring your health after the alpha up to maximum very quickly. They won't be firing off weak weapons, but concentrating on keeping the team alive.

 

It's annoying when I get a "heals only" Defender on the team.

This is just sad, laboring under the old mistaken notion that "defender" means "healer".  It would be so sad to roll a Dark Miasma or Kinetics that does nothing but sit there and fire off the one heal all day. A Stormie who just runs around throing O2 Boost like there's no tomorrow. Or a Sonic, Force Field, or Trick Arrow who just cries in the corner because they can't heal. Cold is one of the strongest Defender sets and it doesn't really heal, just adds some HP occasionally on top of the ice shields. 

Buffs/debuffs are better than heals and it's much better to build a fighting Defender than a millstone who follows the team hoping someone gets hurt.

 

Heck, extending this paradigm to make a Scrapper put everything into the Attacks and ignores their armor would make a gimped toon indeed.

[Bill Z Bubba]

19 hours ago, Carnifax said:

Forcefield, Sonic, Emp really need for modernizing so they're fun for you as well as the team. 

 

My emp/nrg defender was recently rebuilt with max recharge in mind. Having the two RAs up 2/3 of the time is damn nice for soloing.

[cranebump]

On 9/21/2021 at 11:52 PM, Diantane said:

Obviously you just read the title, skimmed the post and made your reply. You just don't understand the power of a dedicated archetype. If a plain tank that trained anything ran into a group of purple foes, they are going to die and die quickly. 

Guess I just won’t run vs. purple then.

[Erratic1]

8 hours ago, ninja surprise said:

 

This is only true if the tanker isn't using any IO sets and the tank took one of the weaker armors that requires you to take all the primary powers. 

It is not true at all if the person knows how to build a good tank, skips the useless powers, and gets the set bonuses from IO sets in the attacks that add survivability.

 

I am pretty sure the threshold for it not being true is lower than that. Looking at my latest Tanker, he has 36 of his 67 added slots outside his primary and not in things like Toughness or Weave. While he has 12 IOs slotted, they have one for one replaced the SOs he had in the slots. which I know because he has never been respec'd. He's been a perfectly fine Tanker during the entire levelling process.

 

I'll also mention that 31 of those 67 slots are empty, and this is at level 50. Those slots have NEVER had anything in them because I do not purchase SOs from level 28 onward, preferring to maximize and save the incoming influence for set IO purchases by slotting crafted common IOs so I do not have to keep upgrading/purchasing SOs. I add slots where I think I will want them in a finished build but will often leave them empty in anticipation of filling them later. While I invariably am wrong on slot placement, coming up with tweaks and refinements to the target final build along the way, I tend to get close enough to be able to slot IOs as I manage to acquire them according to plan.

 

Sure, a fully slotted Tanker in a group with absolutely no healers would be tougher than I am during the levelling process. But unless the level of missions has been substantially dialed up, I do not have much of a problem in such situations given I chose a primary set coming with both healing and endurance recovery and know how to use inspirations.

 

 

Edited September 25, 2021 by Erratic1
typo

[Hew]

7 hours ago, ninja surprise said:

Trick Arrow who just cries in the corner

I think you have this backwards:

 

"Trick arrow who just makes everyone else cry in the corner"

Edited September 25, 2021 by Hew

[Doomguide2005]

     I have played numerous Defender Empaths on teams ranging from  League, large and small, to solo and at pretty much every difficulty level including while solo between Live and HC

     One thing I can safely say is you'll likely never be as good a 'dedicated' Empath  (whatever the hell that is) as you could be by neglecting your secondary, pools and other non-primary powers.  Your teams will suffer as a result.

 

     And I have one very confused 'dedicated' Claws/SR scrapper.  "Hmmm damage dealer ... okay so I take Focused Fighting because I have to and then what?  Nothing in my secondary directly helps me deal damage?  Just status and knock protection plus defense based armors."

     Nevermind the Brutes ... 

[ninja surprise]

14 hours ago, Hew said:

I think you have this backwards:

 

"Trick arrow who just makes everyone else cry in the corner"

 

Sure, you and I know TA is awesome sweet but it doesn't fit OP's definition of healing-maximized defender.

[Hew]

6 hours ago, ninja surprise said:

 

Sure, you and I know TA is awesome sweet but it doesn't fit OP's definition of healing-maximized defender.

 

But that is kind of the point of the other 900million posts here, which is that a "healing maximized defender" is a really poor definition of what a defender is, if at all, since even empathy has a huge number of not-heal pieces that _actually_ make it work. Like fortitude, recovery aura, healing aura, clear mind (oh how the blasters love clear mind) for example.

[Doomguide2005]

On 9/26/2021 at 5:13 AM, Hew said:

 

But that is kind of the point of the other 900million posts here, which is that a "healing maximized defender" is a really poor definition of what a defender is, if at all, since even empathy has a huge number of not-heal pieces that _actually_ make it work. Like fortitude, recovery aura, healing aura, clear mind (oh how the blasters love clear mind) for example.

      And I always found ignoring your secondary oddly wrong even if you ARE trying to be a 'pure healor'.  You will be able to use your HO, HA, AP more often if you take, fully slot, and enhance those blasts with sets for +recharge. Just remove those attacks from your trays and forget about them.  No need to actually use them to benefit from them.  Sheesh.

[Sovera]

On 9/22/2021 at 4:40 AM, Diantane said:

Often I'll see a tank or a defender that has trained a lot of their early attacks. Like they are going to play just like a tank/scrapper or defender/blaster (50/50). The problem with that is since the attacks are in their secondary power-set, they will be weaker than a primary set would be. So they have become a "jack of all trades, but master of none."

 

I find peculiar that last week you seemed to have no clue on how to play the game, and this week you're doling out pearls of wisdom and saying how it is.

 

There is too much wrong with everything you have said to address it and others have already done it. I suggest to keep on playing and learning because you are not yet at the point of teaching.

[Ironblade]

On 9/21/2021 at 11:40 PM, Diantane said:

Often I'll see a tank or a defender that has trained a lot of their early attacks. Like they are going to play just like a tank/scrapper or defender/blaster (50/50). The problem with that is since the attacks are in their secondary power-set, they will be weaker than a primary set would be. So they have become a "jack of all trades, but master of none."

On a side note, I'd like to point out how this particular quote is taken out of context and most people think it means the OPPOSITE of what it originally meant.

Everyone says, "Jack of all trades, and master of none." as if to suggest that mastering one thing is the best course.  But that's not the wisdom that the saying conveys.

The ORIGINAL quote is "Jack of all trades, and master of none, BUT BETTER THAN A MASTER OF ONE."

So the original guidance is that being a jack of all trades is SUPERIOR to being a master of one.

[Aurora_Girl]

Blood is thicker than water...

 

 

Another one of my favorite WILDLY DIFFERENT original sentiments. 

[Luminara]

Just now, Aurora_Girl said:

Blood is thicker than water...

 

Eh.  Some of the water I bring up to the cabin is pretty chunky.  Thank goodness for Brita.

[Ironblade]

13 minutes ago, Aurora_Girl said:

Blood is thicker than water...

 

 

Another one of my favorite WILDLY DIFFERENT original sentiments. 

Indeed.  With the original quote being, "The blood of the covenant is thicker than the water of the womb."

[JasperStone]

My character.

My build.

[kubwulf]

On 9/22/2021 at 2:30 PM, Neiska said:

2. The OP speaks as if "Dedicated Role" and "Other Roles" are mutually exclusive here. Using their tanker as an example, it is entirely possible to build a tanker that has defense softcap, resistance cap, has good status resistance, good damage, and manages its END well. It need not be Either/Or. I do suspect that the level up process and the budget for a build affects this, as it might be best to focus on one area, but at level cap? Not so! Using the Tanker as an example once again, it is entirely possible to build a scrapper who can tank 90% of the content just as well as a "Dedicated Tank" can, and do more damage in the bargain. Again, this varies with levels, inf spent, and a number of other factors. 

 

 

This is a really good example.  Way back in the day (pre-Issue 6 and ED), I played a scrapper that was Spines/Regen.  I didn't take the cookie cutter build with Hasten and perma-Moment of Glory.  I slotted all my secondaries before my attacks whenever possible and as long as I survived the alpha strike, I would live through the encounter.  I used to tank AVs for funsies.  According to OP, this fun "I-can't-die-neener-neener" scrapper wasn't "dedicated" because I didn't focus on my primary set.  The thing is, when other scrappers were dying to +2s, I was still standing and giving them time to rez.  

 

These types of builds are at the heart of CoH.  There is no one set way to play, and being "dedicated" to a role is, as so many other have pointed out, highly subjective.  Can a Fire Aura tank be effective without Acrobatics or some other form of knockdown protection?  Not in my opinion.  That doesn't make me correct.  In the end, this reeks of "I don't like people playing in a way I don't approve of." from the OP.  I think the OP has set themselves up for disappointment as they will run with teammates who aren't "dedicated" and playing the way the OP wants.