Why only 16 targets?

[Galbadine]

So I've played CoH (in its various forms) for over 10 years, I remember the introduction of Crotoa as a halloween event.

 

I start with this because somewhere along the line, control powers have been limited to 16 targets. Not really sure when, but I am curious as to why?

 

My favourite class is Controller, always was, because they were a dangerous but clever alternative to a tank, unique to CoH. But with this limit, they are no longer fit for that purpose. I mean, would you limit Taunt to 16 targets controlled at a time? It would mean taking multiple tanks in even an 8 man group.

 

Why the limit? I see it as a serious loss of a really good idea: a ranged, intelegent tank alternative, Controllers are still effective, just now they are support, and in large groups, their defencive pools play just as large of a role, if not more than their control powers. I miss being a viable alternative for a ranged group.

[SeraphimKensai]

Taunt only hits 5 targets at a time. It needs to be applied multiple times to effect the agro cap for tankers which is 17.

 

Blaster nukes only hit 16 targets at a time, some aoes only hit 10.

 

This, along with agro limits was done by the live devs to throttle the game so that we couldn't agro an entire map, and then when someone had 400 mobs on them, nuke them or burn them to nothing all at the same time.

 

As far as controllers go, it's so you have to be strategic about how you use your controls so that way you're not surrounded by the same group of 400 mobs all held in place unable to attack.

 

Addition: Incarnate Judgements can actually target up to 40 mobs, which exceeds the agro limit.

 

When the game first came out there was no target or agro caps, so we took advantage of that. The devs established target/agro caps.

 

Realistically I'd probably increase them some if I had my way, but I'm married, so I haven't had my way since 2017.

 

Hopefully that gives you some insight.

Edited February 2, 2022 by SeraphimKensai

[TheZag]

a blaster nuking several hundred mobs at once back in the day,  and waiting 2-5 minutes for the lag to go away after.  sometimes your game just straight up crashed.

 

agro cap of 17 wasnt them just picking a number from nowhere.  the max spawn size was 16 and if there was an AV as part of the spawn then there could be a max of 17 mobs in a particular spawn.  Most abilities had their target cap reduced to 16 10 or 5 to prevent multiple tanks with the agro cap of 17 from pulling a large group and still having the blaster nuke it.  they still tried for several weeks after the change but other methods of farming were found that replaced this one soon enough.

[Snarky]

More than 16 targets? Waddya get? Another dead ‘Troller that’s deeper in debt.  Ms Liberty don’t ya call me ‘cuz I can’t go… I just popped a rez to get off this floor…..

[Yomo Kimyata]

22 minutes ago, Snarky said:

More than 16 targets? Waddya get? Another dead ‘Troller that’s deeper in debt.  Ms Liberty don’t ya call me ‘cuz I can’t go… I just popped a rez to get off this floor…..

 

If you don't have a soul, you can't owe it to anyone or anything.

[Doomguide2005]

Fun facts:

Volcanic Gases creates a pseudopet.  That pseudo pet has a target limit of 5.

VG creates 7 such pseudo pets.

Quicksand creates 1 pseudopet with a target limit of 16

Earthquake meanwhile creates 1 pseudopet with a cap of 10 targets 

 

Conclusion: Earth's patches are not very consistent but that's potentially 61 foes in just under 7 seconds

[Ura Hero]

3 hours ago, Galbadine said:

Why the limit? I see it as a serious loss of a really good idea: a ranged, intelegent tank alternative, Controllers are still effective, just now they are support, and in large groups, their defencive pools play just as large of a role, if not more than their control powers. I miss being a viable alternative for a ranged group.

 

 

...Cue Wayback Machine...

 

Back right after the original launch, there was such a thing as dumpster diving.  Basically a tank would go to a zone such as Perez Park, run around the zone and collect every mob they could reach.  They would then run back to a building that had a dumpster and jump in.  Wait a few minutes for all the mobs to show up and then the blasters would nuke the entirety en masse.   Rinse Repeat.

 

To say it was a game breaking mechanic would be an understatement.  So somewhere around Issue 2 or 3, the 16 enemy limit was put into place along with leashing the mobs to a location.  Problem solved.

[arcane]

Because the current easy game was even easier with no aggro/target caps.

[oedipus_tex]

Personally I think the 16 target cap is okay. There are Incarnate Judgment powers that hit 40 targets, and I'm not really a fan of how that affects the battle equation.

 

I do think bumping AoE "nuke holds" to hold more than 16 targets is a good idea to make these powers what they are meant to be. That would be the Controller/Dominator AoE holds, along with Trick Arrow and Radiation Emission's EM Pulse powers. A bump to 24 or 32 targets, enough to handle one half or one full extra spawn would make these powers stand out against the much better AoE Holds that Dark and Earth Control get.

[UltraAlt]

5 hours ago, Galbadine said:

 

Why the limit?

 

I think it was due to power creep.

[Vulpoid]

3 hours ago, Yomo Kimyata said:

If you don't have a soul, you can't owe it to anyone or anything.

I suspect @Snarky collects them,  the way gingers have freckles.

[Glacier Peak]

The real target cap is 255 entities, friend, enemy, or pet combined. 

[Nemeroff]

3 hours ago, Ura Hero said:

 

 

...Cue Wayback Machine...

 

Back right after the original launch, there was such a thing as dumpster diving.  Basically a tank would go to a zone such as Perez Park, run around the zone and collect every mob they could reach.  They would then run back to a building that had a dumpster and jump in.  Wait a few minutes for all the mobs to show up and then the blasters would nuke the entirety en masse.   Rinse Repeat.

 

To say it was a game breaking mechanic would be an understatement.  So somewhere around Issue 2 or 3, the 16 enemy limit was put into place along with leashing the mobs to a location.  Problem solved.

 Too many lowbies while  in PP would just get totally annihilated. Out numbered and out powered compared to the aggroed mob; like the whole map.

AND when you're trip to the Hospital sends you back to AP it's frustrating and time consuming.

Too many players complained.

[arcane]

Curious why the OP thought this was a Controller issue though.

[Doomguide2005]

1 hour ago, Vulpoid said:

I suspect @Snarky collects them,  the way gingers have freckles.

Wait, no he's after some vital force contained in blood.  Souls is more a @Bill Z Bubbathing I think.

[arcane]

You’re both wrong. Snarky spends way too much time collecting Thunderstrikes and Artilleries to have any time for blood or souls.

[merrypessimist]

11 hours ago, Ura Hero said:

 

 

...Cue Wayback Machine...

 

Back right after the original launch, there was such a thing as dumpster diving.  Basically a tank would go to a zone such as Perez Park, run around the zone and collect every mob they could reach.  They would then run back to a building that had a dumpster and jump in.  Wait a few minutes for all the mobs to show up and then the blasters would nuke the entirety en masse.   Rinse Repeat.

 

 

As one of the blasters who used to team with a tank to do this, I tell people that I was partially responsible for the game having target caps.  Around 30ish Alan and I would round up ~90% of Brickstown into a dumpster and onto a pile of twenty or thirty trip mines for hilarious BOOOM! times.  Of course that sucked for everyone ELSE while the mobs respawned but we'd gotten our xp/inf.  The target caps ultimately are a necessity.  Of course I'd prefer if they were all consistent at 16, but we can't have everything.

[Ironblade]

16 hours ago, Galbadine said:

My favourite class is Controller, always was, because they were a dangerous but clever alternative to a tank, unique to CoH. But with this limit, they are no longer fit for that purpose. I mean, would you limit Taunt to 16 targets controlled at a time? It would mean taking multiple tanks in even an 8 man group.

Interesting that you would make that comparison, because there absolutely is such a limit on how many targets a tank can control.  That number is 17.  And it certainly does not mean taking multiple tanks for an 8 man team since the spawn size limit is 16-17.  (Aside from the fact that teams with zero tanks can do just fine.)

[Albion]

13 hours ago, Doomguide2005 said:

Fun facts:

Volcanic Gases creates a pseudopet.  That pseudo pet has a target limit of 5.

VG creates 7 such pseudo pets.

Quicksand creates 1 pseudopet with a target limit of 16

Earthquake meanwhile creates 1 pseudopet with a cap of 10 targets 

 

Conclusion: Earth's patches are not very consistent but that's potentially 61 foes in just under 7 seconds

What the hell and I never even batted an eye to Earth control O_O

[Doomguide2005]

On 2/2/2022 at 10:18 PM, Albion said:

What the hell and I never even batted an eye to Earth control O_O

     And that's part of why the target limit vs aggro limit are very different things.  A Tanker can 'control' essentially only his aggro limit but Controllers (and Dominators) owing to multiple mez powers can already control far more than they can aggro.  Didn't even go into adding in Stalagmites, Fossilize, Stone Cages, Salt Crystals etc.. to that 61 count above.  I can control way, way more than my aggro limit with my Earth Controllers.  Not only do the limits need to exist they are almost not relevant for most Control based characters when compared to specifically blasters or other AoE damage dealers.

Edited February 4, 2022 by Doomguide2005
Typos, always with typos

[Galbadine]

On 2/2/2022 at 5:48 PM, arcane said:

Curious why the OP thought this was a Controller issue though.

Ignorance, I havent played anything else since returning.

But I do feel it impacts Controllers more, at least in the role I always felt they filled: Ranged Tank.

A tanker generates passive (kinda) agro, and all of their abilities "control" their target by causing the target to prefer hitting them.

A controller has one or two abilities that actually stop a crowd of targets hitting the group, the others stop them moving or just knock them over for a second or two. With the 16 target limit, they are no longer ranged tanks.

 

But, I understand. Allowing them to be used in their intended way allows exploitation and farming practices that would make the exception for controllers into a licence to print exp/inf, looking at you Fire/Kin. Its just a shame they couldnt have come up with a better way than nerfing everyone, and ruining this unique and imo great concept.
As just a quick idea off the top of my head: the more mobs aggroed, the greater the buff they recieve. Both a farming deterrant and a fun mechanic for people who find the game too easy.

[Aurora_Girl]

5 hours ago, Galbadine said:

A bunch of nonsense

 

/The idea was woefully inept and poorly conceived and I would love for the next one to be...not.

 

Yeah, @arcane, you're right. A GIF would be better. 🤔

[Neiska]

Masterminds have higher target caps, due to pets having their own tables. I can't be precise and can't find any information on it, but Masterminds can fight more at a time than any other AT, including tankers. I even made the concept of Mastermind farming around that concept. I have no data sources (trust me, I've looked) about pet aggro tables, but the closest estimation I can make is that each pet can aggro up to 6 mobs at a time.

 

So that's 12 mobs (for the mastermind themselves) plus 18 (the 3 t1 pets) and another 12 (the 2 t2 pets) and another 6 (the t3 pet) for a grand total of 48 mobs, per individual MM.

 

On some smaller maps, such as the Asteroid AE map I more or less aggro the entire map at once, minus 2-3 straggler groups. (I hasten to add that it takes more than one MM to be able to survive this, I would say 2 minimum.) But yes, "En masse" Mastermind farming where you focus on engaging as many foes as possible at once is very efficient. I even wrote a guide about it, its in the Mastermind section.

[Myrmidon]

I was one of the players that caused that to happen (herding). Sorry about that.

[arcane]

1 hour ago, Neiska said:

Masterminds have higher target caps, due to pets having their own tables. I can't be precise and can't find any information on it, but Masterminds can fight more at a time than any other AT, including tankers. I even made the concept of Mastermind farming around that concept. I have no data sources (trust me, I've looked) about pet aggro tables, but the closest estimation I can make is that each pet can aggro up to 6 mobs at a time.

 

So that's 12 mobs (for the mastermind themselves) plus 18 (the 3 t1 pets) and another 12 (the 2 t2 pets) and another 6 (the t3 pet) for a grand total of 48 mobs, per individual MM.

 

On some smaller maps, such as the Asteroid AE map I more or less aggro the entire map at once, minus 2-3 straggler groups. (I hasten to add that it takes more than one MM to be able to survive this, I would say 2 minimum.) But yes, "En masse" Mastermind farming where you focus on engaging as many foes as possible at once is very efficient. I even wrote a guide about it, its in the Mastermind section.

Well, not quite true but close. Plant Control can aggro more than Masterminds.

 

Also, can you comment on how the pets fare in the meteor map with just one MM? I don’t consider it super efficient if you’re talking about the guys loading up 2-3 MM’s. Tons of combos should wipe a meteor in no time, if it’s not solo it’s not particularly special imho.

Edited February 10, 2022 by arcane