Combo Mechanics Thread

[arcane]

43 minutes ago, Bopper said:

Correct, this has been known for awhile. It's also been known that increasing the range/radius in cone attacks does not increase its Area Factor calculations for procs. The proc formula uses the base radius/arc only.

The latter sounds like it’s working as intended because range enhancements increase range, not radius, and the game clearly designates those as two separate  things. The former is about a tank mechanic explicitly increasing “radius” so is far more fishy.

Edited February 7, 2022 by arcane

[Bopper]

1 minute ago, arcane said:

The latter sounds like it’s working as intended because range enhancements increase range, not radius, and the game clearly designates those as two seoarate things. The former is about a tank mechanic explicitly increasing “radius” so is far more fishy.

Sure, and it would be a global strength buff that is not being observed by the proc formula. But...this is way off topic, so I'll bow out for the sake of GB having to read 50 posts and only 10 of them talking about combos.

[Gobbledigook]

How did we get onto procs in a combo mechanics thread lol?

 

This games is pretty old now and so are a lot of us, that played this back in the day. I am not some 15 year old kid on a some Razer mouse/gaming keyboard with much nimbler fingers.

 

There are many reasons why i like this game and the combo sets are not one of them.

 

I tried savage melee and did not like it because of the combo which is a shame as i would love to play an animal type character with it and i like the animations.

[Aurora_Girl]

1 minute ago, Gobbledegook said:

How did we get onto procs in a combo mechanics thread lol?

 

This games is pretty old now and so are a lot of us, that played this back in the day. I am not some 15 year old kid on a some Razer mouse/gaming keyboard with much nimbler fingers.

 

There are many reasons why i like this game and the combo sets are not one of them.

 

I tried savage melee and did not like it because of the combo which is a shame as i would love to play an animal type character with it and i like the animations.

 

But you don't need nimble fingers to use combo sets, just the ability to see a ring around a power. 

 

Which is why UI scale exists for the fogeys. ☺️

[Luminara]

Just now, Gobbledegook said:

How did we get onto procs in a combo mechanics thread lol?

 

The same way someone got their chocolate into someone else's peanut butter.

 

Wow.  It sounded so innocent in the commercials, but reading it now...

[arcane]

3 minutes ago, Gobbledegook said:

I tried savage melee and did not like it because of the combo which is a shame as i would love to play an animal type character with it and i like the animations.

Try playing as if the combo mechanic doesn’t exist. This approach works fine so if you really want to play an animal character with those animations there is zero reason not to.

Edited February 7, 2022 by arcane

[Luminara]

Just now, Aurora_Girl said:

Which is why UI scale exists for the fogeys. ☺️

 

You have children aging you prematurely.  I don't.  Who's the fogey?  😛

[Gobbledigook]

Just now, Aurora_Girl said:

 

But you don't need nimble fingers to use combo sets, just the ability to see a ring around a power. 

 

Which is why UI scale exists for the fogeys. ☺️

No the combos are not as as bad as in other games but i would not like it to get worse. The ring ones are not to bad its some of the other combo mechanics i like less.

[Major_Decoy]

1 hour ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

ow imagine, if you will, a Water/Energy Blaster with the Sorcery pool. First I get the yellow ring popping up on the Sniper attack and on Arcane Bolt. And I have to remember the 1-2-3 Tidal Force combo. And I have to remember to use Boost Range and/or Power Boost to change Stun into the type of attack that I want.

Water doesn't get a sniper attack, but Seismic blast does, and that's got Seismic Pressure to deal with, so you can use that as your example instead.

 

Honestly, when it comes to feeling like whack-a-mole and fast twitch gaming, I don't get that on water blast, but I do get that feeling on my Shield/Psionic Melee stalker because it seems like those stacks of assassin's focus are expiring just before I'm able to use my assassin's psi blade.

[Saikochoro]

I personally don’t mind combo mechanics. I actually enjoy them to some extent. Dual blades is probably my favorite overall melee set. I really like water blast and street justice. 
 

Dual blades is probably the only set that has strict combos in A>B>C sense. I can understand how this would turn off a lot of people, but honestly you can go either way on dual blades. You can ignore the combos entirely. Or you can stick with the fried and true BF + attack vitals which is also really good.

 

I don’t mind further sets having combo mechanics, even strict ones like dual blades. I would just want them to make sure that each combo is worth using and thus each power is worth taking (and not just because the combo forces it). That could be the one improvement on dual blades. But since dual blades does fine with just one combo, or none at all, I’m not going to complain about it. 

[Spaghetti Betty]

My main Scrapper is Staff Fighting. My main Brute is Street Justice. I have absolutely no qualms with resource building mechanics. It adds more flavor to the "tab 1-2-3" playstyle. Some sets do it better (Staff Fighting) while others I have a real big problem with (Savage Melee).

 

Now, if we're talking about a rigid combo structure ala Dual Blades, that's one of those things that I feel makes DB unique and should be left alone there.

 

And stuff like Impact in Gravity, which is more "set 'em up, knock 'em down," is completely fine. I mean, honestly, that's almost like saying debuffing a mob before you blast it is too much work. I know there are people like this, don't remind me.

 

Personally, if we're just talking about potentially adding new sets that cash out a built up resource, it should only serve to help the set perform better (Staff Fighting, Nrg Melee) and not hinder you for not always being on top of the gimmick (Savage Melee).

[Aurora_Girl]

One of my mains is Savage Melee, and I never not once have felt I needed to follow the combo, other than "oh the AoE is lit up, let's use it"

[oedipus_tex]

What's really interesting to me is Trick Arrow is kind of an anti-combo mechanic set. Acid Arrow's and Ice Arrow's debuffs (actually any debuff to the list of things they debuff, but there aren't many powers that do it) actually applies retroactively, so it doesn't matter if you debuff Recharge, Regen, Recovery etc before or after the arrow. The effect is multiplied regardless of the order of events. I suppose the same thing is true of Benumb as well.

[Glacier Peak]

I like playing sets for different reasons. Energy Melee for its red pomp pomps and huge single target damage. Water Blast for its set mechanics. Stone Armor before and after the changes. Combo mechanics aren't a pro or a con for me. I haven't played a Dual Blades primary yet though so who knows. 

[Ukase]

On 2/7/2022 at 8:41 AM, Galaxy Brain said:

With this laid out, the question I have is why the dislike of them? 

I should say, I don't dislike all of them. But, for me, here are my reasons, specifically against dual blades. 

I like the idea of the game pointing out an optimal attack chain. The problem is - in my builds, anyway, 

I run into using the initial attack (no circles to tell me which to use first), then, a second. Then I get a circled clue, mash that, then the 4th circled is ready, I do that, and then the next attack is ready, and then..the next attack is not recharged. By the time it does recharge, it's no longer circled. 

Additionally, I haven't paid attention to the specific numbers, but these attack chains do not seem optimal. I seem to get higher dps from different attack chains. So what good are they if they aren't a clear benefit? 

Premise: The combo mechanic (for dual blades, anyway) will ALWAYS be limited the way CoH is played presently. ALWAYS. 
Why? Because it's depending on slotting. It's relying on the player to slot for recharge, rather than some other attribute. And even if you do, it's sometimes not enough recharge anyway. Sometimes, you have to opt for defense & resist over recharge, but a lot depends on what you're fighting and your playstyle, and your secondary armor choice. 

But if I'm just going off of feedback from the game - (do I have enough endurance? do I have enough defense? etc) - then I'm not always going to choose recharge to get that attack up and ready on queue. 

Now, if each power's detailed info gave specific details on how much recharge was needed for a given power to be ready to fire, then perhaps I'd use the set more. A thousand cuts is a hoot to fire off in the midst of a mob. But, when the circled attacks aren't ready to fire when called for, it just fills me with frustration, and I'll soon log and choose something that doesn't rely on this stupid gimmick. I call the gimmick stupid because clearly, I'm too lazy/stupid to do the math to determine the proper route. But, should I really have to? It's the game's combat mechanic. If it's relying on recharge to use it properly, the detailed info tab for the attack should reveal the recharge required, or alternatively, adjust the damage from the attack accordingly. If used in 1 second - it deals X damage. If used in 2 seconds, it deals 2X damage, 3 seconds 3X damage, etc. 
Of course, X should be some low scale value, with a cap of some higher value, so it's not taking unfair advantage. 

But, hey, that's just my thoughts on it, since you asked the question. 

As for Savage melee, I kind of like it...but I would prefer it give some notification beyond the icon in the buff bar. I was probably level 25 before I even knew what it was. I had seen no indication that I was building any kind of frenzy. Fury, yes. Frenzy? Those icons didn't really make themselves noticeable to me. And some attacks don't seem to give an icon at all. I just use Blood Thirst as a build up and don't really worry about building Frenzy. 

[Without_Pause]

I feel like Staff and DB are hindered by their combo systems as they both have offensively bad high level attacks, see Sky Splitter and 1k Cuts. Even if you add in the combo damage for Sky Splitter, the DPA is still trash. Without it, you might as well be using a wet noodle.

[arcane]

I don’t think Dual Blades is hindered in the slightest. It’s a very high DPA set and you never ever have to trigger a single combo for that to be the case.
 

It certainly needs no help, but I wouldn’t violently resist if the devs decided to add a combo that’s actually triggered by using the best attack chain. That might be OP though, the set’s already great with that chain as is.

 

Staff S/T damage (well not on Stalkers I guess) sucks yeah but the question is just how much of that suck is justified by the substantial combo buffs and the good AoE damage. Tho its real problem is the lamest break dance melee AoE animation ever.

Edited February 8, 2022 by arcane

[EmperorSteele]

So while i LIKE the IDEA of combo mechanics, whenever I play such a set, it rarely "feels good". Like, hey, this bad guy is almost dead, but NOW the orange ring shows up and it's like, do I use it? I don't have to, but if I don't, I feel like I've wasted my time?

 

Or it's like hey, I've built up my 3 points of whatever... too bad there's no one to use it on oh HEY there's a mob over there, I'll just- oh. My counters just expired. Sigh.

 

=/

[Glacier Peak]

5 minutes ago, EmperorSteele said:

So while i LIKE the IDEA of combo mechanics, whenever I play such a set, it rarely "feels good". Like, hey, this bad guy is almost dead, but NOW the orange ring shows up and it's like, do I use it? I don't have to, but if I don't, I feel like I've wasted my time?

 

Or it's like hey, I've built up my 3 points of whatever... too bad there's no one to use it on oh HEY there's a mob over there, I'll just- oh. My counters just expired. Sigh.

 

=/

This happens with non-combo sets too. Players have to think, do I use the big bad attack (Greater Psi Blade, Total Focus, Blaze, etc.) or do use the quick recharging, low damaging T1 attack power. I always go for dropping the hammer if my big bad attack is up. I figure the fight is over anyways, so the extra end cost wouldn't be a big deal.

[SuperPlyx]

Like most people, I like some, dislike others. DB is good in that you can use or ignore.

My main problem child is TW momentum .....I can never get that working worth a damn, I  just gave up on it.

[A Cat]

54 minutes ago, arcane said:

Tho its real problem is the lamest break dance melee AoE animation ever.

This bothers me especially on Dream Doctor. He is a mystical arcane wizard dude, and he attacks by hitting people with his wizard staff while doing the coffee grinder? WTF.  

[Naraka]

14 minutes ago, EmperorSteele said:

So while i LIKE the IDEA of combo mechanics, whenever I play such a set, it rarely "feels good". Like, hey, this bad guy is almost dead, but NOW the orange ring shows up and it's like, do I use it? I don't have to, but if I don't, I feel like I've wasted my time?

 

Or it's like hey, I've built up my 3 points of whatever... too bad there's no one to use it on oh HEY there's a mob over there, I'll just- oh. My counters just expired. Sigh.

 

=/

 

Do you dislike playing Brute? I couldn't imagine being able to function well leveling up or even in any team capacity with that mentality.

 

As far as combos as a whole, I guess I'm in that odd outlier that thinks all combos and styles are good it's just some are better than others. I might not play Dual Blades as often as other sets but I wouldn't want the set reduced or look at the function with disdain because power sets, like most games, are like ice cream or food in general. Just because I don't want a flavor right now doesn't mean I won't want to have some later or even if I don't like the flavor, someone else likely does. If it's okay to love, it's okay to hate. 

 

With regards to new sets, the OP highlights an important point in that there are only so many ways to dress a set. Without extra features from unique mechanics, there's only so many combos of damage types and secondary effects and even then, many of the existing damage types and secondary effects provide precious little in the field of "uniqueness" to justify the set existing.

 

Concluding on the subject of gameplay, fun factor and strategy, it's no secret the game is limited on naturally building difficulty which limits strategy. Requiring the player to successfully perform to maximize their performance is a common gameplay loop while requiring the player to be aware of their surroundings and the enemy is the other. The latter is not as prevalent, especially on teams, so the former is likely going to be the only portion you're directly concerned with. I'd say, those that don't like interacting with various combos simply don't want obstacles in maximizing their performance which is understandable but foolish since it's practically the only loop left that makes the game categorized as interactive.

 

I think the best approach moving forward, both with current combo sets and new sets, is to iron out wrinkles that could make the combos too clunky but don't be too concerned with inconveniencing the player if the hoop has a reward. Further still, I'd like to see more combos similar to Dual Blades (like a ranged boomerang set) but I think it's also important to introduce sets with mild combos that are mostly background like Rad and Psi melee. Shock Therapy did this well, being mostly a background combo functionally, but don't be afraid to make something more involved. 

[Naraka]

40 minutes ago, SuperPlyx said:

Like most people, I like some, dislike others. DB is good in that you can use or ignore.

My main problem child is TW momentum .....I can never get that working worth a damn, I  just gave up on it.

 

I dunno, TW is most fun when you get prime time unloading. It's least fun when mobs die quickly that I have to reposition or left putting down onesies and twosies. The obvious psychological solution is to just make mobs flow endlessly and stack but you'll just be frustrated when you can't.

 

I suppose I often take the bad with the good. The good is also just the fun in watching my character swinging that weapon aroundv or running around with it wielded. The bad being it's clunky by design compared with a normally sized weapon like a katana or staff.

[Naraka]

4 hours ago, Ukase said:

I should say, I don't dislike all of them. But, for me, here are my reasons, specifically against dual blades. 

I like the idea of the game pointing out an optimal attack chain. The problem is - in my builds, anyway, 

I run into using the initial attack (no circles to tell me which to use first), then, a second. Then I get a circled clue, mash that, then the 4th circled is ready, I do that, and then the next attack is ready, and then..the next attack is not recharged. By the time it does recharge, it's no longer circled. 

Additionally, I haven't paid attention to the specific numbers, but these attack chains do not seem optimal. I seem to get higher dps from different attack chains. So what good are they if they aren't a clear benefit? 

Premise: The combo mechanic (for dual blades, anyway) will ALWAYS be limited the way CoH is played presently. ALWAYS. 
Why? Because it's depending on slotting. It's relying on the player to slot for recharge, rather than some other attribute. And even if you do, it's sometimes not enough recharge anyway. Sometimes, you have to opt for defense & resist over recharge, but a lot depends on what you're fighting and your playstyle, and your secondary armor choice. 

But if I'm just going off of feedback from the game - (do I have enough endurance? do I have enough defense? etc) - then I'm not always going to choose recharge to get that attack up and ready on queue. 

Now, if each power's detailed info gave specific details on how much recharge was needed for a given power to be ready to fire, then perhaps I'd use the set more. A thousand cuts is a hoot to fire off in the midst of a mob. But, when the circled attacks aren't ready to fire when called for, it just fills me with frustration, and I'll soon log and choose something that doesn't rely on this stupid gimmick. I call the gimmick stupid because clearly, I'm too lazy/stupid to do the math to determine the proper route. But, should I really have to? It's the game's combat mechanic. If it's relying on recharge to use it properly, the detailed info tab for the attack should reveal the recharge required, or alternatively, adjust the damage from the attack accordingly. If used in 1 second - it deals X damage. If used in 2 seconds, it deals 2X damage, 3 seconds 3X damage, etc. 
Of course, X should be some low scale value, with a cap of some higher value, so it's not taking unfair advantage. 

But, hey, that's just my thoughts on it, since you asked the question. 

As for Savage melee, I kind of like it...but I would prefer it give some notification beyond the icon in the buff bar. I was probably level 25 before I even knew what it was. I had seen no indication that I was building any kind of frenzy. Fury, yes. Frenzy? Those icons didn't really make themselves noticeable to me. And some attacks don't seem to give an icon at all. I just use Blood Thirst as a build up and don't really worry about building Frenzy. 

I feel the divide here is the misconception that the combos highlighted by the system is outlining the meta-game goal of max performance. You can use whatever skills you calculate to be maximum but the combo system is meant to give bonus effects, not max performance.

 

Tangent: I find it odd how players could be so concerned with how bad-A their character looks standing still but only ever bother using the attacks that barely have animations because they're mostly only concerned with performance. 

[SeraphimKensai]

This thread and the conversation is has produced has been enlightening to me. I've always seen myself as a power gaming outlier, that I forget people enjoy a slow pace.

 

I'm over here triboxing, watching Netflix, drinking a beer, playing with my dog, and talking to my wife about names and ultrasounds. If you ever see me in game I'm zipping around ready to rush and crush whatever objective. If you saw my fingers though on the keyboard I look like an over caffeinated college kid trying to write a 50 page paper in one night before a 9am class. Sometimes I'll hit a key 4 times waiting on the animation and wondering why it's moving so slow that I have time to change my laundry over to the dryer before I can attack again.

 

Like I said I'm an outlier and definitely have a problem.