issue 27 Focused Feedback: Attack Typing Adjustments

[Troo]

2 hours ago, Outrider_01 said:

Can anyone else tell me if they can still AFK Burn farm?

 

It is getting sorted out.

Currently that additional damage is likely coming from ranged attacks originating from targets over the previous aggro cap. Different focused feedback thread amigo.

 

 

Edited July 17, 2022 by Troo

[MoonSheep]

On 7/13/2022 at 3:13 AM, WindDemon21 said:

This is also completely unnecessary, and honestly just kind of a smack in the face for those which it applies to. The game has ALWAYS applied defense typing for all that an attack is categorized as, and should be as well still. This is just dumb, and a complete waste of time on the devs part, sorry. This is a major downvote, and wish the time was spent on better things that are actually asked for and help make the game more fun, not worse.

 

applying changes to ensure the game has balance, diversity and challenge is an improvement in my view

[kburd825]

Please don't make this change.  I have another suggestion, although it's based on speculation.  Some people in earlier posts have suggested that this change is to discourage archetypes or to encourage support archetypes.  My suggestion is to implement a incentive policy for diverse teams.  Like, you get a bonus for a TF/SF in merits if you have no duplicate ATs.  This idea was partially inspired by the Kheldian inherent powers.

Homecoming has been running for over 3 years now, and the defense mechanic has been in place since the early days of City of Villains.  Changing it now would be a mistake, even if the real-world effects aren't dramatic.  Many of us players want the game to function as it was on live.  We enjoy and appreciate all the new things too, but don't like changes to the basic functions.  In short, add to the game, don't subtract.

[357trall]

I say keep the change, it's about time there was a nerf of some variety in a update.

[America's Angel]

8 hours ago, Outrider_01 said:

Can anyone else tell me if they can still AFK Burn farm?  I just don't have enough time today to check all the previous pages.

 

Yes, see below. Attack typing changes shouldn't have any impact on it:

 

[arthurh35353]

I think people are seeing that simple answers to their content are in danger, which is okay.

[flakoff]

I think that this is a good thing, the game is pretty much easy and mostly full of people farming. 

May as well just play on test server at the moment really.

What's the purpose of different sets if every one can solo max settings?

 

[Digirium]

18 hours ago, Outrider_01 said:

Can anyone else tell me if they can still AFK Burn farm?  I just don't have enough time today to check all the previous pages.

 

I just did a really short AE on test server, start taking a lot of damage more than I expected AFK with auto Burn and watching it.  4/8 seems to melt me in about 45 seconds from accumulated damage when you could go 15 minutes AFK.  Haven't farmed that much in for a few month from working 6 days a week and exhausted to actively farm which I normally do, so went to do a little to farm on test to see these changes and I don't think its viable to do just a single round of Briggs asteroid maps without face planting.

 

My normal farmer build didn't last long either. "Egghead" time with Mids.

 

From further tests I did, AFK fire farming is still possible. It requires an extreme build with all the accolades, a heavy focus on health regeneration rate and self heal procs (x4). But... even with 400% health regeneration topped off with brute regen proc stacking (between 40-50 hp/sec) it is still a roll of dice f.ex if the majority of critters lobbing fire blasts all roll a hit simultaneously it may be touch and go or faceplant time despite a very strong build. I think it would be classified as "working at intended" by the developers (i.e. an AFK farming brute now has a non-zero percent chance of being defeated).

 

I've been using America's Angel test map - Briggs I've tried too. Both have patrols. Briggs for some reason felt easier and more survivable. That was at +4x8, of course. Might circle back to Briggs to check that out again on the test server to be certain.

Edited July 18, 2022 by Digirium

[Wavicle]

Because of its position in the different sections of the patch notes the following new note from the latest build is slightly unclear:

All Player Attack powers now use two attack types. All attacks will have up to one Positional defense and one Type defense it will check against.

Does THIS change any player Mind Control, Illusions, or Fortunata powers that didn't already use two attack types?

[Sovera]

18 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

Because of its position in the different sections of the patch notes the following new note from the latest build is slightly unclear:

All Player Attack powers now use two attack types. All attacks will have up to one Positional defense and one Type defense it will check against.

Does THIS change any player Mind Control, Illusions, or Fortunata powers that didn't already use two attack types?

 

Not really sure what this changes for players (though some were loudly asking for it and not just NPCs having it). We already build for 95% chance to hit, so...?

[Bopper]

28 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

ll Player Attack powers now use two attack types. All attacks will have up to one Positional defense and one Type defense it will check against.

The phrasing of "two attack types" is certainly a poor choice given the context. Perhaps it should say "two attack tags". 

The next sentence is clearer in this regard. Each attack will have *up to* one Positional tag (Melee, AoE, or Ranged) and *up to* on Type tag (S/L/E/N/F/C/P/T).

[AustinSmith]

2 hours ago, Wavicle said:

Does THIS change any player Mind Control, Illusions, or Fortunata powers that didn't already use two attack types?

Can't speak for Illusions or Fortunatas, but Mind Control per the patch notes is intended to ignore positionals by the devs, so that won't have been changed for players, either.

[EmperorSteele]

I just tested a Mind Controller on Brainstorm, and there doesn't SEEM to be a difference. None of the powers say they have any other attack flags, so, I think we're okay.

Edited July 18, 2022 by EmperorSteele

[Positron49]

On 7/17/2022 at 2:38 PM, MoonSheep said:

 

applying changes to ensure the game has balance, diversity and challenge is an improvement in my view

 

I played since beta and saw all the nerfs.  Ultimately, I agree there is an issue with power creep in the game, but my concern with this change in particular is that it fundamentally changes how enemies hit you across the board, and I doubt the devs have thought through all the impacted AT's and powersets that will get destroyed and all the builds that will need redone in response to something so fundamental to the game.  People freaked over ED, and this seems like something more major.  Do we know that this will actually fix these problems, or will it just get most players to focus their efforts onto the few builds that can achieve 45% DEF to all of either positional or types?  For example, you will likely see far more /Shield brutes in play as other powersets disappear.  Back to the Elec/Shield Fotm?

 

Point being, this isn't a creative fix, and will likely not achieve its desired results.  The problem, imo, comes from a few things.  First, other defense types are undervalued.  If having 45% def to S/L and 35% def to fire gives you 45% to the fire attack since it has part of both and takes the highest, why not figure out a way to make fire defense a better option?  Like can't we put different floors in the to hit calculator?  For example, softcap S/L attacks at 40% and all others at 45%.  This way the character with high Fire Def is still better than S/L against fire attacks, but the S/L def still serves a purpose (and being capped now means you get hit 10% of the time instead of 5%).  This also makes physical NPCs more dangerous, since they hit more often but have attacks that are more often resisted.  Oh, and most characters get to IO for something else once they hit 40% S/L defense leading to more diversified builds.

 

Second, there needs to be precision in adjusting the sets that are behind.  For example, Radiation Armor is pretty absurd compared to Ice Armor for a tanker.  The enemies to hit calculations aren't to blame for that, its a lack of adjusting older sets and bringing them in line over decades.  

[RoboKnight]

You guys could just add even harder enemies to the game instead. I don't like any of these changes to be honest.

[DrunkFlux]

I never built my toons to have only smash/lethal defense.  Even my blaster(the "High overall performer") had high defense vs everything.  She couldn't take a hit but I almost never got hit anyways, still carefully monitored HP through fights.

 

Since I tend to try to cover all holes anyways, not sure this change effects me any.

[tidge]

On 7/16/2022 at 7:37 PM, Night said:

Was there even any good reasoning given for this change?

 

I want to believe it is because of all those TFs I ran with my Inv/Em tanker that never turned on his toggles.

[Texman]

On 7/18/2022 at 12:51 AM, flakoff said:

I think that this is a good thing, the game is pretty much easy and mostly full of people farming. 

May as well just play on test server at the moment really.

What's the purpose of different sets if every one can solo max settings?

 

 

I can agree that some teams I've been on at +4/8 is so ridiculously easy that sometimes I can't even get an attack off before the whole group is dead.  To me that's just not fun.  My suggestion is why not just increase max settings to say +6 or +7 x8 for people that want the extra challenge on a full team instead of these attack adjustments.

 

Edit:  I just realized maybe the game doesn't even allow for it to go higher than lvl 54 enemies.  If that's the case then maybe a setting that makes more bosses or EBs spawn to increase difficulty for those that want more of a challenge.

Edited July 26, 2022 by Texman

[Astralock]

12 minutes ago, Texman said:

 

I can agree that some teams I've been on at +4/8 is so ridiculously easy that sometimes I can't even get an attack off before the whole group is dead.  To me that's just not fun.  My suggestion is why not just increase max settings to say +6 or +7 x8 for people that want the extra challenge on a full team instead of these attack adjustments.

 

Edit:  I just realized maybe the game doesn't even allow for it to go higher than lvl 54 enemies.  If that's the case then maybe a setting that makes more bosses or EBs spawn to increase difficulty for those that want more of a challenge.

 

Level 54 is indeed hard-coded.  The best you can do is level 54 with level shifts, as seen in some Incarnate trials.  Also, there was a bug prior to Page Three that allowed you to set difficulty at +5 if you were level 49 or below, (since, again, level 54 is hard-coded).  There were a few different threads about this.  All it showed is that any difficulty beyond +5 was simply a slog.  Not more difficult, not more challenging, just a slog.  Things took two or three times as long as they would at +3 or +4, but there was no additional challenge.  Mobs just took a long time to whittle down.

 

The answer for increased challenge is the Advanced Difficulty modes seen in the Dr. Aeon SF, and now the Imperious TF.

[WindDemon21]

6 minutes ago, Astralock said:

 

Level 54 is indeed hard-coded.  The best you can do is level 54 with level shifts, as seen in some Incarnate trials.  Also, there was a bug prior to Page Three that allowed you to set difficulty at +5 if you were level 49 or below, (since, again, level 54 is hard-coded).  There were a few different threads about this.  All it showed is that any difficulty beyond +5 was simply a slog.  Not more difficult, not more challenging, just a slog.  Things took two or three times as long as they would at +3 or +4, but there was no additional challenge.  Mobs just took a long time to whittle down.

 

The answer for increased challenge is the Advanced Difficulty modes seen in the Dr. Aeon SF, and now the Imperious TF.

This exactly. I'd rather do harder stuff that makes me want a tank, troller etc on the team, but still being able to steamroll council radios on a blaster for example, rather than now not being able to play those squishies at all without a team altogether.

 

Ie, don't ruin good content that a lot of people enjoy, just make more content for more people.

Edited July 26, 2022 by WindDemon21

[Marshal_General]

10 minutes ago, Astralock said:

The answer for increased challenge is the Advanced Difficulty modes seen in the Dr. Aeon SF, and now the Imperious TF.

I was thinking this too. They would have to have advanced difficulty versions of all mob types which would take a lot of time.

[UltraAlt]

On 7/16/2022 at 2:50 AM, FUBARczar said:

were these changes inspired by Rularuu encounters? 

 

Oh, awesome! 

after the update, hopefully, we will get the Rularuu invasion event happening!

[FUBARczar]

3 hours ago, UltraAlt said:

 

Oh, awesome! 

after the update, hopefully, we will get the Rularuu invasion event happening!

At least the Rularuu provide at least one group where resist sets are King.  

[UltraAlt]

15 hours ago, FUBARczar said:

At least the Rularuu provide at least one group where resist sets are King.  

 

I loved it when Issue 2 dropped.

We don't see enough of the other groups invading.

Just random times over the day. They don't have to happen all day or all the time, but I think everyone enjoys them when the happen and randomizing them more increases the fun.

 

I know that the invasion events cause massive xp game, and that's why I'm saying like adding more random types once each during the day would hopefully decrease the rampant xp gain, but still allow something exciting.

 

I would be good if there was some way to make the fire events more of a thing.

The fires and ghost ship are often overlooked. 

Maybe more buildings on fire for the fire event and put them in other zones if possible.

 

Ghost ship .... it would be cool if it turned all the mobs it passes into the spectral pirates.

[Sovera]

On 7/26/2022 at 4:56 PM, Marshal_General said:

I was thinking this too. They would have to have advanced difficulty versions of all mob types which would take a lot of time.

 

Scaling might be the answer. I mean, we already have scaling in the form of the difficulty slider. But yet again more scaling. Single person in a team? Regular +4/8. Two persons in a team? +4x8 with mobs having 20% more HP (random numbers subjected to actual tuning). 8 people in the team? +4x8 with mobs having 200% extra HP.

 

Because it -is- dull playing in a full team and one nuke from the Blaster (or a Judgement from any of the eight in the team) immediately kills half a spawn leaving 3-4 mobs alive.

 

Tbh even with 200% HP mobs might still melt very fast but we could at least hit them a few times. We'd also avoid/abandon AVs dying in 30 seconds, though I also agree HP sponges are not terribly interesting either. But between HP sponges and mobs dying while the meleers try to at least land a few hits I dunno which is worse.

 

This is only a version of the the much desired and hoped for difficulty slider option of 'every mob is a boss' that basically wants the same results: combat not over in ten seconds.