Sins of the Devs are visited upon the players

[Number Six]

2 hours ago, Ukase said:

In context of competing for the Shiny McThingBobs that our esteemed #6 mentions, it's still competition for those items. The source of the inf is not important in context. At least, I can't see how it is. But, I am known for being obtuse and can miss things more easily than I'd like. 

 

Some things in the game are fixed price (SOs, costume changes, etc), while others fluctuate based on market demand. Merit costs are a price ceiling, the market value of something like a rare recipe will always be less than the equivalent value in merits -- if it ever got higher someone would take the opportunity to make some cash by flipping from the NPC vendor. Crafting costs are basically a fixed cost and are added on to the recipe value when pricing enhancements, plus some margin.

 

The source of inf is important because the value of those items is based on supply & demand -- i.e. how much is someone willing to pay for it? The more inf people have, the more they're willing to pay, driving up the price. Prices increasing because of more currency being in circulation is the basic concept of inflation.

 

Think of it this way, if everyone got their inf through the market, eventually people's supplies of inf would start shrinking because no more is being added to the game and transaction fees slowly whittle away at what they have. Having less inf on hand means people are less willing to pay high prices. Crafters/converters have to lower their asking price or they can't sell anything. Eventually there is a floor below which people can't make inf from the market anymore and aren't willing to go through the trouble to sell, and the market collapses.

 

Keeping inflation in check has been a priority for us since HC started. I'm sure some of you remember the runaway inflation on the retail servers that led to things like certain PVP enhancements having a value of more than 2 billion and having to be traded off-market, or purple recipes selling for 500m+. As it's a game and currency is being constantly created and destroyed, we can do things like tweak supply through drop rates or add inf sinks. We can even aim for a deflationary policy at times, which would be insane in real-world economics but since our target is equilibrium rather than constant growth it works. There is definitely some inflation in HC but overall I'm satisfied we're in a much better place than retail was, as the economy is reasonably stable and we still have levers that can be pulled if things start to get out of control.

 

So when I talk about which activities generate inf or destroy inf, it isn't so much about how individual players fund their builds as it is about keeping the overall economy healthy and functioning at a level that is actually useful to players. I know some people hate the market and that's fine; for those who don't it gives them the ability to quickly get the items they want at lower prices than if it didn't exist and they had to use merits for everything.

[Luminara]

22 minutes ago, Number Six said:

I'm sure some of you remember the runaway inflation on the retail servers that led to things like certain PVP enhancements having a value of more than 2 billion and having to be traded off-market, or purple recipes selling for 500m+.

 

5 slots in Entangling Arrow for a "cheap" purple set.  Attacks frankenslotted because the prices on Apocalypse and Ragnarok were so high that 5 of either of those required several months of farming a scanner mission at +2/x6.  Only having a -KB enhancement on my main because it dropped for another character.

 

Yeah.  I remember.

 

[MoonSheep]

47 minutes ago, Number Six said:

Keeping inflation in check has been a priority for us since HC started. I'm sure some of you remember the runaway inflation on the retail servers that led to things like certain PVP enhancements having a value of more than 2 billion and having to be traded off-market, or purple recipes selling for 500m+. As it's a game and currency is being constantly created and destroyed, we can do things like tweak supply through drop rates or add inf sinks. 

 

Out of control inflation is indeed a risk, though I believe prices have been allowed to collapse to an extent where it is eroding core components of the game - such as archetypes.

 

the over-availability of IOs has allowed all ATs to be a blurry combination of any AT, with little effort required to achieve an end-game build 

 

i propose the ability to convert IOs should be limited (if not removed) to see what impact this has on prices. prices should be allowed to double across the board at a minimum 

 

i would be surprised if the creators intended for powerful IOs to be as attainable as they are today

[Frostbiter]

Even on Live there were ways to get expensive IOs. I mostly earned my Unique IOs by taking advantage of the Hero Merit system. It took awhile yes, but it was possible to do it that way without ever needing a lot of Inf.

[Excraft]

15 minutes ago, MoonSheep said:

i propose the ability to convert IOs should be limited (if not removed) to see what impact this has on prices. prices should be allowed to double across the board at a minimum 

 

Yeah fuck that.  No thanks.

[Luminara]

18 minutes ago, MoonSheep said:

the over-availability of IOs has allowed all ATs to be a blurry combination of any AT

 

The very notion that out of control inflation was a factor in creating differentiation between archetypes is ludicrous.  There were no IOs for the first three years, there was no inflation at all because there was no player economy, and players were bending and ignoring archetype definitions the entire time.  The core mechanics of the game permit every archetype to perform in the role of every other archetype.  This has been the case since launch.  The Invention system may have allowed more players to (finally) recognize that, but it didn't create it nor will restricting IO availability prevent it.

 

Over-availability.  What a ridiculous thing to say.  IOs were added to the game so everyone could use them, not to reward elitists and snowflakes.  The entire idea behind the Invention system was to give players, all players, a way to improve beyond the level cap without raising the level cap, and suggesting that this freedom be curtailed and given only to a select few is abhorrent.

[EmperorSteele]

1 hour ago, Number Six said:

There is definitely some inflation in HC but overall I'm satisfied we're in a much better place than retail was, as the economy is reasonably stable and we still have levers that can be pulled if things start to get out of control.

 

 

Pull ALL the levers! =D

 

...I mean, assuming these are physical levers and not, like, changing a 0 to a 1 in a config file, because that's boring.

 

I like levers, okay?!

[Ukase]

1 hour ago, Number Six said:

The more inf people have, the more they're willing to pay, driving up the price.

I disagree. That is, it's certainly not true for me. I still don't pay for lotg 7.5%, nor pvp IOs. At least, not the crafted versions. I buy recipes to convert into what I want, if I don't have them stashed in my base. And I'm filthy rich, in-game. I make a point to only sell in the AH, never buy, if I can help it. My dad used to drum it in my brain, it's not how much money you make, it's how much money you save. So, given that a 125 map in AE brings about 4-5M, every two IOs I don't have to buy is one less map I need to run. But that's just me being a miser, I suppose. It's not rational for me to think everyone thinks or acts this way - and I'm sure someone's making extra zero errors, and some folks will blow that extra inf to get what they want immediately. I

I know some people may be impatient or ignorant that way, but I've got to think most folks are smarter than the "buy now" mentality. Or maybe they're not. God bless 'em, they've made my account loaded with inf. I just always thought those "buy it now" people were the exception, rather than the rule. 

 

1 hour ago, Number Six said:

As it's a game and currency is being constantly created and destroyed, we can do things like tweak supply through drop rates or add inf sinks.

So, horrible creature that I am - this kind of makes me want to rescind my comment about not afk-farming. How much inf do I have to create to get the inf sinks I've been asking for? 

Tweaking supply through drop rates...that's certainly interesting. I really need to learn how to .pigg dive. 
 

 

1 hour ago, Number Six said:

There is definitely some inflation in HC

May I ask how HC assesses this? Because as someone who tends to craft/convert/sell all but purples and pvp recipes, I don't see the inflation. I see my fellow marketers selling things for less - meaning I have to ask for less to get something back for my troubles. 

The only area I see a tiny bit of price increase is the level 10-30 sought after stuff like Steadfast Protection 3% def, Kismet ToHit, and similarly sought after IOs. And that's got a certain ebb and flow to it, mostly due to competition. At least, I think that's it.

In some cases, I swear it was some of the HC folks secretly buying stuff in hopes of stimulating the economy, because it kind of boggled my mind selling 100 glad armor 3% def in one day. I didn't think demand for them was that high. Granted, I was selling cheaper, I think. But it wasn't so cheap that someone would have made any measurable return if they relisted, after the 10% AH fee. I'm sure that's just in my wee brain, though. 

 

 

Again, thank you for taking the time to share your thoughts. It matters. At least, it matters to me. 
 

[Number Six]

2 hours ago, battlewraith said:

And because the market is regarded differently, it's absolutely fine that people can trivially acquire large sums of money through marketing.

 

One thing worth pointing out is that the majority of the activities that let people earn inf from the market are also activities that provide value to other players.

 

The most obvious one is taking recipes and crafting them. It can be tedious to gather up the various salvage -- precrafted enhancements are much more convenient and some people are happy to pay a premium for that.

 

Converting is the big one and the driver of much of the in-game economy nowadays. Since converters are tradable now they have their own inherent value, but people converting in bulk also save other players the time of doing it, and absorb the risk of playing converter roulette, averaging it out for more consistent pricing.

 

Even the much maligned flipping does have value -- one of the main reasons things can be flipped are fluctuations in price over time arising from inconsistent supply*. Flippers get a bad rap but do help smooth out supply and make sure that items are available during times of high demand when they might otherwise completely sell out.

 

* Price also fluctuate because the AH's terrible UI makes it hard for players to know what something is worth. Ideally I want to fix that and make more information readily available, but the whole data backend needs to be ripped out and replaced with something more sensible before that can happen.

 

There are some more aggressive ways to corner parts of the market that are more dubious, but they're a much smaller segment.

[roleki]

13 hours ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

This is a Superhero/Supervillain game. Not Farm Simulator.

 

Just to clarify the differences between Real Superheroes and Dirty Farmers, allow me to introduce this handy Goofus and Gallant table:

 

REAL SUPERHEROES	DIRTY FARMERS
Log in	Log in
Choose Character	Choose Character
Recruit/Join Team	Recruit/Join Team
Travel To/Call Contact	Travel to AE
Ignore/Read Mission Description	Ignore/Read Mission Description
Select Mission	Select Mission
Make Mission Active	Make Mission Active
Travel to Mission Entrance	Travel to Mission Entrance
Ignore/Read Mission Text	Ignore/Read Mission Text
Defeat Enemies/Meet Objective	Defeat Enemies/Meet Objective
Exit Mission	Exit Mission
Shore-up Team (if necessary)	Shore-up Team (if necessary)
Clear Inventory (if necessary)	Clear Inventory (if necessary)
Level Up (if necessary)	Level Up (if necessary)
Repeat to Taste	Repeat to Taste

 

Geez, it's almost like we're playing the same game. 

[Number Six]

21 minutes ago, Ukase said:

I disagree. That is, it's certainly not true for me. I still don't pay for lotg 7.5%, nor pvp IOs. At least, not the crafted versions. I buy recipes to convert into what I want, if I don't have them stashed in my base.

 

But you're buying converters. Or, alternatively, you're not selling converters and missing out on the inf that you would otherwise have -- the opportunity cost is roughly the same. Since converters can be bought for inf, out of control inflation driving up converter costs would affect you either directly or indirectly.

 

I know of a number of people with loads of wealth who stockpile that wealth in the form of stored converters rather than inf because it's easier to manage. That's one of the reasons I view suggestions to reduce availability of converters, which would just happen to make the value of all those stored converters skyrocket, with a bit of skepticism.

 

21 minutes ago, Ukase said:

May I ask how HC assesses this? Because as someone who tends to craft/convert/sell all but purples and pvp recipes, I don't see the inflation. I see my fellow marketers selling things for less - meaning I have to ask for less to get something back for my troubles.

 

Watching how much inf is generated, destroyed, stored, etc. It's not affecting market prices currently because the market is actually quite heavily regulated and a number of prices depend solely on the number of conversions it takes to get there. A bit of a contraction / correction is not unexpected as the market adjusts to the page 4 changes.

 

21 minutes ago, Ukase said:

In some cases, I swear it was some of the HC folks secretly buying stuff in hopes of stimulating the economy

 

Nope, that's not one of the methods we use. It's all on the supply side.

[cranebump]

53 minutes ago, roleki said:

 

Just to clarify the differences between Real Superheroes and Dirty Farmers, allow me to introduce this handy Goofus and Gallant table:

 

REAL SUPERHEROES	DIRTY FARMERS
Log in	Log in
Choose Character	Choose Character
Recruit/Join Team	Recruit/Join Team
Travel To/Call Contact	Travel to AE
Ignore/Read Mission Description	Ignore/Read Mission Description
Select Mission	Select Mission
Make Mission Active	Make Mission Active
Travel to Mission Entrance	Travel to Mission Entrance
Ignore/Read Mission Text	Ignore/Read Mission Text
Defeat Enemies/Meet Objective	Defeat Enemies/Meet Objective
Exit Mission	Exit Mission
Shore-up Team (if necessary)	Shore-up Team (if necessary)
Clear Inventory (if necessary)	Clear Inventory (if necessary)
Level Up (if necessary)	Level Up (if necessary)
Repeat to Taste	Repeat to Taste

 

Geez, it's almost like we're playing the same game. 

This is true. Only thing not addressed is what team members do in the mishes (in-mission conduct). "Dirty Farmers" recruit sitters more often than "Real Superheroes," making for more teams with passive members (though, to be honest, I haven't been on a typical mish team in HC that's had designated sitters). Farmers can also tailor enemies to fit their specific strengths, whereas a "real superhero" who isn't cherry-picking every mish enemy type has to engage outside their optimal comfort zone from time to time. But as far as framework? Yeah, it's the same game.  And, now that I think about it, if I'm crafting a character who basically just runs the same set of TFs and little else, aren't I just farming in a different way? 

 

Hmmm..maybe we're all dirty son's-a-bitches.:-)

[Grouchybeast]

37 minutes ago, Number Six said:

* Price also fluctuate because the AH's terrible UI makes it hard for players to know what something is worth. Ideally I want to fix that and make more information readily available, but the whole data backend needs to be ripped out and replaced with something more sensible before that can happen.

 

When you rip out that market backend, can you get someone to place a tombstone for it in Dark Astoria, so I can go and dance on its grave?

[Coyotedancer]

2 minutes ago, cranebump said:

Hmmm..maybe we're all dirty son's-a-bitches.:-)

 

*nods*

 

I have a Cold/Ice Defender who was designed specifically for MSRs. With his AOEs, it's very, very easy for him to get that "little bit of damage" on Every.Single.Rikti. that shows up anywhere near the bowl.

 

Yep... For all practical purposes, he's a V-Merit farmer. 

Although no one has ever looked at Circios and said "OMG! It's Old McDonald in mittens!" 😆

[MoonSheep]

2 hours ago, Luminara said:

 

The very notion that out of control inflation was a factor in creating differentiation between archetypes is ludicrous.  There were no IOs for the first three years, there was no inflation at all because there was no player economy, and players were bending and ignoring archetype definitions the entire time.  The core mechanics of the game permit every archetype to perform in the role of every other archetype.  This has been the case since launch.  The Invention system may have allowed more players to (finally) recognize that, but it didn't create it nor will restricting IO availability prevent it.

 

Over-availability.  What a ridiculous thing to say.  IOs were added to the game so everyone could use them, not to reward elitists and snowflakes.  The entire idea behind the Invention system was to give players, all players, a way to improve beyond the level cap without raising the level cap, and suggesting that this freedom be curtailed and given only to a select few is abhorrent.

 

i believe top rewards should be limited and a challenge to earn. there are sandbox games available for players that want instant win gratification without challenge, risk or skill

 

in my view, the introduction of IOs was the single biggest mistake in CoX development and materially contributed to the game’s failure. the clock began counting down to when IOs were introduced

 

a core premise and selling point of CoX were the archetypes, their unique traits and their ability to combine and form something greater. IOs and now the over-availability of discount high end enhancements have removed the flavour of individual archetypes and substituted it with a grey one size fits all mush

 

Edited September 7, 2022 by MoonSheep

[PeregrineFalcon]

14 hours ago, GM Widower said:

Don't worry, we also have no idea what the Council of Thirteen is.

Back in one of the threads where we were complaining about the addition of that weird sort-of combo gimmick to Energy Melee, someone referred to the developers as "The Council of Thirteen."

 

I use it now and then just because I like the sound of it.

[Mezmera]

1 hour ago, Number Six said:

I know of a number of people with loads of wealth who stockpile that wealth in the form of stored converters rather than inf because it's easier to manage. That's one of the reasons I view suggestions to reduce availability of converters, which would just happen to make the value of all those stored converters skyrocket, with a bit of skepticism.

 

Are you suggesting the moneybags just may be attempting to manipulate the market?  Egads!  How very real life.  

 

You all have done a fantastic job of keeping the market affordable for any player, fresh or old, to be able to deck themselves out to the 9's.  The grind is so much less than on live which I appreciate so much, after I got a few first characters well built it just snowballed to the point I can afford to build new characters if I feel like it from time to time and still give stuff away nonchalant.  All of my 50 characters have top end builds whereas on retail I'd only have my doms with the expensive builds. 

 

If the point of seeding the market is to get it to the point where people can just log on and play the game whatever they feel like without feeling inadequate because they can afford a top end build themselves then marvelous job.  

 

I'm fine with the aether being in such demand and I'm okay with this one new currency for flair, if it stays at just this one extra currency.  That it will just be for flair and not any permanent power buff I think it's a cool way to entice people into lots of activities without introducing some must have powercreep.  With all of the moaning about it though part of me feels there should be power buffs offered on top of just flair since that would be most attractive to those who have tinkered with their characters to be able to perform these harder tasks. 

 

If the HC staff is going to be doing all of this to keep the game moving forward and wants to try to generate interest skewed a bit more towards team oriented play through certain rewards all the while dedicating your time to generate this flair I'm all for it.  

 

Thanks for taking the time out to read and reply to all of this randomness as well.  Now get back to work we need a new HM goldside TF stat!

Edited September 7, 2022 by Mezmera

[Seed22]

On 9/5/2022 at 5:52 PM, Luminara said:

Next time you want to start a battle of wits with me, come armed.

A mean, wits would be understanding that THIS IS A VIDEO GAME. As in, on both sides, no need for personal attacks. Go outside, come back in, take a breath, and go redside because common sense says: Redside best side! >:D

[ivanhedgehog]

4 hours ago, battlewraith said:

 

That's fine. You do you. 

My issue is this:

 

You have three general ways of earning income: running content, farming, and playing the market. Players in the game are doing at least one of these things and most are doing a combination. Farming has been nerfed more than once and the gist of the rationale seems to be that these devs don't want players to feel that they have to farm in order to keep up. Okay, but if that's the idea why is it then alright to assume that everyone will be playing the market in order to keep up (and if they don't, fuck them)? I can't roll a level 30 farmer and make billions over the course of a week. I can't also run normal content with a lvl 30 and make billions over the course of a week. So doesn't that indicate some sort of imbalance with respect to how rewarding this activity is? 

 

Based on their statements, I think the devs are not viewing these three approaches as wealth acquiring strategies. They seem to be viewing them as earning (farming, content, etc.) and redistribution/destruction (market). And because the market is regarded differently, it's absolutely fine that people can trivially acquire large sums of money through marketing. But then what happened to the initial complaint against farming--that players would feel they needed to do this. Playing the market to generate wealth is akin to using steroids in sports. If it becomes the case that most players are using them, players who don't will be at a severe disadvantage. A lot of players not only seem to acknowledge this, but strongly embrace it as well.

 

"I got no sympathy for you man, just take the drugs."

 

 

I am feelling that I have to do hardmodes or marketing to stay competetive or to have any of the good rewards. It does seem that was the main complaint against farming. The devs shifted the whole paradigm of the game, and yes, there are people that dont like that. the people that love it seem to be telling those that dont to leave the game rather than making their thoughts on it heard.

[ivanhedgehog]

2 hours ago, Luminara said:

 

The very notion that out of control inflation was a factor in creating differentiation between archetypes is ludicrous.  There were no IOs for the first three years, there was no inflation at all because there was no player economy, and players were bending and ignoring archetype definitions the entire time.  The core mechanics of the game permit every archetype to perform in the role of every other archetype.  This has been the case since launch.  The Invention system may have allowed more players to (finally) recognize that, but it didn't create it nor will restricting IO availability prevent it.

 

Over-availability.  What a ridiculous thing to say.  IOs were added to the game so everyone could use them, not to reward elitists and snowflakes.  The entire idea behind the Invention system was to give players, all players, a way to improve beyond the level cap without raising the level cap, and suggesting that this freedom be curtailed and given only to a select few is abhorrent.

Gotta say, fully agree with this post. 100% This game was different from others for this very reason.

[Bionic_Flea]

22 minutes ago, Mezmera said:

Now get back to work we need a new HM goldside TF stat!

*cough*

 

[Neiska]

26 minutes ago, MoonSheep said:

i believe top rewards should be limited and a challenge to earn. there are sandbox games available for players that want instant win gratification without challenge, risk or skill

 

So, using my favorite play as an example. I started with 3 masterminds and 3 boxed them, with zero outside influence/mailed merits/etc. I have done story missions. As well as farming and AE. I have even gone GM and AV hunting. I would say that takes skill, is a risk, and a challenge. The challenge, risk, and skill is there. Just play a non-meta build with self imposed handicaps. Nothing stopping you from playing a Merc/FF MM from 1-50 entirely solo while performing the "iron man" challenge, that is, entirely 100% self found/crafted things only. You are certainly free to do that. The key difference here is while the option to do that sort of play already exists for you and everyone else, you want to "force" it onto everyone else.

 

26 minutes ago, MoonSheep said:

in my view, the introduction of IOs was the single biggest mistake in CoX development and materially contributed to the game’s failure. the clock began counting down to the when IOs were introduced

 

In truth the shutting down of live was more of a real world many-layered topic, far more to do with the real world economy much more than making your powers 20% more effective. And that particular issue is far too lengthy to give it its due credit here.

 

26 minutes ago, MoonSheep said:

a core premise and selling point of CoX were the archetypes, their unique traits and their ability to combine and form something greater. IOs and now the over-availability of discount high end enhancements have removed the flavour of individual archetypes and substituted it with a grey one size fits all mush

 

But they can't. IOs simply made everyone more efficient or better, but it did not bridge the AT core features. Such as a Tankers/Brutes Taunting, A scrappers Crits, or a Stalkers stealth and commanded bonus damage, A blasters sheer offensive power, or a corruptors hybrid/personalized approach, and what have you. Many ATs can perform the same feats yes, but the "hows" vary greatly not only from class to class, but even among different primaries within those same classes. No IO or enhancement will suddenly give you a taunting aura. Or the ability to crit. Or the assisinate and domination powers, etc etc. You want more defined roles and less cross-hyrbrids, I get it. But that is going into the same design of other games such as "1 tanker, 1 healer, 3 DPS" which I think the majority of people do not want on all content.

 

If you want that, you are certainly free to play with self imposed limitations. Gamers and Record setters do it all the time. But when you try to force that onto others, or try to display it as a better, superior, more "pure" form of the game, then you are going to have problems.

[Mezmera]

3 minutes ago, Bionic_Flea said:

*cough*

 

 

Gesundheit!

 

Yes do see @Bionic_Flea's one topic that somehow doesn't involve @Jimmy

 

 

[Trike]

16 minutes ago, MoonSheep said:

 

i believe top rewards should be limited and a challenge to earn. there are sandbox games available for players that want instant win gratification without challenge, risk or skill

 

in my view, the introduction of IOs was the single biggest mistake in CoX development and materially contributed to the game’s failure. the clock began counting down to the when IOs were introduced

 

a core premise and selling point of CoX were the archetypes, their unique traits and their ability to combine and form something greater. IOs and now the over-availability of discount high end enhancements have removed the flavour of individual archetypes and substituted it with a grey one size fits all mush

 

I’m going to disagree with that assessment. On the list of “bad ideas added to CoX”, IOs are the opposite. IOs actually *add* to the game’s variety, because with them my otherwise quite-similar Brutes or Blasters or whatever can focus on enhancing different aspects of their powers. It’s fun to have a Fire Blaster who is a sniper specialist and a different Fire Blaster who excels at holds.
 

PvP is easily the single worst thing added to the game, because that’s just not what this game is about. And the extreme variety of archetypes fights against the very notion of PvP, which has to be balanced so that every player has a fighting chance, and the way to do that is to ensure every character has the same stats across the board. IOs exaggerate those differences, making otherwise identical toons wildly uneven in gameplay.

 

I recently wanted to get a specific title for one of my lowbie characters on Excelsior and saw that it was an exploration badge in a PvP zone. I entered with trepidation, but immediately discovered via /whoall that I was the only one in the zone. So I checked a couple other PvP zones, and they were likewise empty.
 

The busiest server has PvP ghost towns. Which is what I saw back on Live, too, when only a couple people would be doing PvP. Has anyone used the arenas since the first few months after they were added? What a total waste of effort. We could’ve had missions on the moon, or in a desert, or undersea. Instead, they catered to a fringe faction for god-knows-why (NCSoft diktat?) who abandoned it, but only after dragging the community down.

 

By comparison, IOs are manna from heaven, sent to give us more variety.

[battlewraith]

1 hour ago, Trike said:

The busiest server has PvP ghost towns. Which is what I saw back on Live, too, when only a couple people would be doing PvP. Has anyone used the arenas since the first few months after they were added? What a total waste of effort. We could’ve had missions on the moon, or in a desert, or undersea. Instead, they catered to a fringe faction for god-knows-why (NCSoft diktat?) who abandoned it, but only after dragging the community down.

 

I'm not saying this to be insulting, it's just the most accurate term I have to use: this assessment is incredibly ignorant. Like someone who never ran a TF saying they sucked and were a bad idea.

 

When the arena was added, there were so many people queued that it took me a couple days of trying before I could get into a match. There was regular activity in the arenas for quite a while, including server battles and leagues and tournaments. When the zones were added later there was a renewed interest as well.

 

The problem with pvp was a combination of bad decisions and neglect. Castle's reworking of the pvp system was extremely unpopular and made it more difficult for pvers to get into pvp. Add to that the fact that there was little in the way of subsequent updates for pvp AND the fact that the arena was actually non functional for a couple of issues (leading to a patch stating something along the lines of "arena is working again" as new pvp content). 

 

Despite all of this, there is still a pvp community. I think they recently ran a season, and there is another event coming up.

 

Edit: also forgot about base raids. They half assed that as well then dropped it completely.

Edited September 7, 2022 by battlewraith