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Focused Feedback: Fiery Aura Revamp


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18 hours ago, Jaxman100 said:

My Claws/Fire Scrapper has 70% global recharge and Obliteration slotted in Burn.  Just under 10 seconds recharge in Page 4, over 17 seconds in Page 5.  Add on not having enough taunt to stop mobs from fleeing, it's an interesting power solo.  Fine on EBs. But won't be part of an attack rotation. 

I think powers 'feeling' fun is just as important as how effective they truly are.  While it has been a bit since i regularly played the Claws/Fire Scrapper, the over 15 second recharge has me not using it on every spawn, which makes me less likely to use it on any spawns. Doing Ouro missions at level 45.  Leveling I don't think I would invest slots into Burn.

 

 

@Powerhouse@Booper Highlighted above is the concern for me. Reigning in the high end builds ends up gimping a signature power for lower level and casual players.

 

Can't have both Hasten and Burn on auto without cheating so Recharge is an easy target for adjustment.

The trade offs just don't seem to equal the lower level regular play impacts.

15 feet for a 5 target power.. meh. (just to curb bad play complaints like not knowing how to pause a beat before immobilizing? or is it for runners to stay in damage?)

 

I'm not convinced 45s is the plan. It feels like a pre-planned compromise point.

Couldn't something be added that helps lower end play but really is a non-factor on the higher end? Slow, Stun, -ToHit, I dunno? Something that helps a solo or small team.

 

It is going to be available now at level 24 and it should be relevant as a signature power. Something that helps on a Boss not just clearing one or two minions.

 

Edited by Troo
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Tinkering around with my zen-mode farmer, Ossuni (Active-only type Claws/Fire Brute)... I have to agree with the general consensus here.

The recharge on Burn is longer than it needs to be.

 

I don't have it on auto with Suni. I trigger it manually when things cluster in close, and I tend not to use it in a constant rotation. I still found the timing slower than seemed reasonable. 

 

Being a zen-farmer, I'm not in any particular hurry to clear maps, so I didn't take careful note of my time on the first bit of Fire City, but clearing individual groups was definitely somewhat slower than on Live currently. I should have more time to do some detailed test runs this weekend, and I'll time those just to see exactly what difference the Burn changes make. 

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Bugfix in today's patch seems to have remedied my main problem with the burn patch, so that with the recharge reversion seems to be working fine as far as having one singular burn patch is concerned. Particularly on brutes, not having fury apply is actually really bad, so glad to see that was unintended behavior, for all archetypes.

Edited by ScarySai
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Testing again.

 

Reverting the animation shaving has lowered the ST damage even more.

 

Pylons:

6:10 with Burn

5:54 with Burn.

 

Currently on live: 4 minutes

 

4:56

4:37

4:55

4:34

 

 

Trapdoor test:

 

5:54

 

Currently on live: 6 minutes.

 

 

Previous test on the PTS showed 6 minutes-ish when not using Burn which tells me that with the animation reverted and the damage lowered Burn is no longer an improvement when used for ST but remains an extra AoE that AoE poor sets can use.

 

 

Two extra minutes in ST is simple brutal but I have no suggestions to make. I'll just present the numbers.

Edited by Sovera
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On 10/4/2022 at 5:37 PM, The Curator said:

Consume

  • Power now grants a small Max HP buff even if no targets are available or hit.
  • Power no longer needs a target to grant End Drain protection. (+End still requires targets)
  • Power no longer claims it is auto-hit.
  • This power now takes Healing sets and enhancements.

You still missed the MAIN issue the power has (like dark consumption too) is that HORRIBLE 3 minute base recharge timer. This needs to be downed to 60 seconds, or honestly lower unless the end portion is autohit like power sink, energy absorption, power drain etc. The recovery portion should also be fixed to last the duration of the buff, not the dumb 15 seconds that it currently does especially for how tiny the recovery buff itself is anyway. Something more proper like a front faced proportion, better rech, and longer duration of the recovery buff like:

 

60s rech, end/recovery portion is autohit, 25% end for first target, 5% for additional 25% recovery for first, 5% for additional, 30s duration of the recovery buff, 60, or keep the 2 minute duration of the -recovery/end resistance. Max hp addition is good/fine, 30s duration on that as well in this scenario.

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43 minutes ago, Skoochy said:

While you're at it, please add a taunt aura to FA for scrappers.

While they're at it, at taunt to ALL the damage auras on scrappers. And for the love of god, add it to chilling embrace on ice armor. It works just like other autohit auras on other armors on scrappers that DO get taunt, for the very reason that you want them in the aura to help survival or damage. CE has -rech and -damage, it's taunt should never have been removed.

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On 10/4/2022 at 5:37 PM, The Curator said:

Burn

  • This power should no longer summon multiple burn patches.
  • This power should now hit 5 enemies instead of 4.
  • Up-Front damage radius increased to 15ft.
  • Procs should no longer trigger multiple times per target when using this power.
  • Burn Flames should now inherit the power Accuracy enhancements.
  • Burn Flames now inherit AT classes, caps, and modifiers.
  • Cast time lowered from 2.03s to 1.47s
  • Recharge increased from 25s to 45s

Yeah holy hell did not see the 45s recharge for burn. If that's going to happen, it needs a serious bump too. I get *trying* to stop farming but seriously, stop ruining every other pve combo because of it.

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Make sure to keep up to date on the changes as they go through. As of 6 hours ago there was a new beta patch which includes these changes to Burn amongst other things:
 

Burn

  • Fixed a bug where the power was not inheriting damage buffs.
  • Recharge reverted back to 25s.
  • Cast time reverted back to 2.03s.
  • Radius reverted back to 8ft.
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13 minutes ago, LQT said:

Make sure to keep up to date on the changes as they go through. As of 6 hours ago there was a new beta patch which includes these changes to Burn amongst other things:
 

Burn

  • Fixed a bug where the power was not inheriting damage buffs.
  • Recharge reverted back to 25s.
  • Cast time reverted back to 2.03s.
  • Radius reverted back to 8ft.

Ah right, somehow, I did see that, the nforgot about it when i reread it and didn't see that on that part of it lol. Good though. That IG change too though really needs reverted. Hurts non-farmers so bad too. Like what the ydid last page was enough against farmers tbh. Let that settle for a while first before nerfing more stuff that affects regular players.

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I can see how the devs will reason that Burn is an AoE and so it should be something extra, a bonus, to help with the attack set it is paired with. But not to replace or be used for ST.

 

If that is the reasoning I get it.

 

But while I say the devs nerf with a gentle hand until things are adjusted this is currently a 50% damage loss on single target. Not 5% or 10%. And yes, it came from a bug, but also yes, it has been like this since... when? IOs were introduced? PPM was changed? Not one year or two years. Players picked Fire Armor and knew what to expect.

 

The small bumps in defense and the QoL (while deeply appreciated) do not stop Fire Armor being picked for offense of which 50% is currently shaved.

 

I have no special suggestions to make if they are even accepted since that 50% loss might be considered acceptable and/or warranted, but perhaps transfer more power to Fiery Embrace either by reducing the CD or increasing the effect?

 

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Aa of today's patch, Burn is now 25s recharge again.

 

See here for the rest of the changes:

 

 

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19 minutes ago, CR Americas Angel said:

Aa of today's patch, Burn is now 25s recharge again.

 

See here for the rest of the changes:

 

 

 

Yeah, I know, if it was meant for me I tested after the patch which is where the 30%-ish single target damage drop became 50% with the animations no longer shaved.

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I'm not sure how useful this will be to anyone but I'm throwing more data: how much does Fiery Embrace add in terms of damage in practical terms? Same tests as before but not using Fiery Embrace at all.

 

Fire Armor/Martial arts character.


 

Previous tests with new Burn having shorter animation and 45 seconds recharge and using Fiery Embrace:

 

6:13

6:07

 

Previous test with new Burn with the old slow animation and 25 seconds recharge and also using Fiery Embrace:

 

5:54

 

Trapdoor, Build-up used, but not Fiery embrace:

 

6:27

6:16

 

 

I think it is safe to say the times are near the same with or without Fiery Embrace. The impact is small if it takes six minutes to shave 20 seconds.

 


 

Previous pylon testing with new Burn, shorter animation and 45 seconds recharge, Fiery Embrace used:

 

5:27 with Burn used.

5:12 with Burn used.

5:36 without Burn used.

6:06 without Burn.

6:12 without Burn.

 

Previous pylon test with new Burn, old animation and 25 second recharge, Fiery Embrace used:

 

6:10 with Burn

5:54 with Burn.

 

 

Pylon test, Build-up used, no Fiery Embrace:

 

7:54 without Burn being used.

 

7:48 with Burn used.

 

Large impact on ST damage.

 

 

I think that this is actually pretty good. It compartmentalizes things. Added AoE is the responsibility of Burn and extra ST is the demesne of Fiery Embrace, ergo tweaks to ST or AoE have a knob so each facet of damage can be tuned up or down.

 

It also finally bears some weight of my instinctive claim made in the past years that if Burn was touched then Fire Armor would crumble. As seen it was carrying near by itself all of the offense in the offensive armor.

 

 

My suggestion is to leave Burn alone (the shaved animation would be nice but as seen it only helps in replacing the weakest attack. Without the animation being shaved it is not a gain to use in ST) since despite the kneejerk reaction at seeing it fixed/nerfed the changes made to it ensure it remains a good AoE addition that has (nearly) the same times as on live with the multiple procs.

 

Instead touch up Fiery Embrace if desiring to give back ST damage to the set.

Edited by Sovera
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I swore I wasn't going to get dragged into this testing cycle but here we are. Reran the usual +4x8 Council paper mission and DPS has taken a fairly severe hit (~290 -> 244) thanks to the lower AoE in burn (mission was a kill all and I was reasonably aggressive). 

 

One potential issue is the the main "Burn" power was hitting only 56% of the time according to my parser. All other powers (including the Burn subpower) are fine so is Burn correctly using Acc & +ToHit; it seems weirdly anomalous. 

image.png.17cb1477162dcb1402eb1cca16d1753c.png

 

I'll try and do a 2nd run with Focused Accuracy on to see if that helps but this seems out to me. 

 

Not really sure what Rise of the Phoenix is for now, damage is meh but then I was using it unslotted. Pretty sure given the 75% threshold the change is worthless (because if I'm a Tank and find my health dropping do I want to trigger it?). Personally I'd remove the threshold altogether. As-is it's pretty much a gimmick. 

 

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29 minutes ago, Carnifax said:

Not really sure what Rise of the Phoenix is for now, damage is meh but then I was using it unslotted. Pretty sure given the 75% threshold the change is worthless (because if I'm a Tank and find my health dropping do I want to trigger it?). Personally I'd remove the threshold altogether. As-is it's pretty much a gimmick. 

 

The damage it does is a straight, linear scale from a theoretical 0 damage at 100% health to scale 4 damage at 0% health. Scale 4 damage is how much damage nukes like Nova do, so it's potentially pretty strong if you use it right. At the 75% health maximum it does scale 1 damage, equal to a power like Punch or Power Bolt.

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Right then. ToHit on Burn is definitely bugged. Yet another Council run, this time with Focused Acc running. Still I hit only 55% of the time (so around the same as without it running)

 

image.png.86e9a4c7f031c8ed6a1b726ce63daf6e.png

 

I'd encourage others to parse their Combat Log tests on Beta and check the Hits/Misses of Burn because as far as I can tell it's ignoring buffs & slotting. 

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I did some testing after you reverted the recharge back to normal.  Ran similar paper missions on lvl 50 StJ/Fire scrapper at +4/x8.

 

Burn:  I was expecting complete disaster, but I found it to be pretty much on par with how it was before.  Now keep in mind, I'm not a farmer and I'm not trying to exploit anything.  I didn't notice significant changes in proc activation (but I wasn't parsing logs either).  Before, you could trigger Critical Strikes proc on cast even when there were no mobs in range, and they fixed that.  To me, that seems to be pretty much working as intended.  After a few missions, I couldn't really see any offensive changes on my strategy, which is generally Burn, Spinning Strike, stay alive and ST attacks until Burn, Spinning Strike.  

 

Everything else:  when I mention "stay alive" as part of my attack change, it is noticeably easier with the changes to Temp Protection, Healing Flames, and Consume.  But it's not OMG I am invincible either, so I like these changes a lot.  I'm mixed on Consume as auto-hit.  I'm used to (and like) endurance mod powers that are auto-hit but don't do damage.  I get it that damage procs still need to roll to hit, but non-damage procs like Fury of the Glad or Overwhelming Force do not.  I'd suggest either:  removing all damage OR keeping accuracy but increasing damage.  Consume does have a rather long recharge time, and Fiery Aura could use a little more help with endurance management IMO.

 

Again, I speak as a missions-based character.  I do not doubt that these changes seriously reduce the utility of Burn for AFK farmers. 

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2 hours ago, Carnifax said:

Right then. ToHit on Burn is definitely bugged. Yet another Council run, this time with Focused Acc running. Still I hit only 55% of the time (so around the same as without it running)

 

image.png.86e9a4c7f031c8ed6a1b726ce63daf6e.png

 

I'd encourage others to parse their Combat Log tests on Beta and check the Hits/Misses of Burn because as far as I can tell it's ignoring buffs & slotting. 

When you parsed your combat log, did you record what the ToHit rolls were showing?

 

Also, is Burn just the upfront damage, or is that including the pseudopet as well?

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1 hour ago, Booper said:

When you parsed your combat log, did you record what the ToHit rolls were showing?

 

Also, is Burn just the upfront damage, or is that including the pseudopet as well?

Pseudopet is the grey italics thing underneath. But the parser adds up the damage from all pseudopets (and in the case of Pets procs as well due to how the game logs them differently to procs in "normal" powers).

 

So the damage figure for Burn would be both Burn itself and the burning patch (also called Burn now; from a legibility point of view it'd be better if it had another name). Game claims I've a 91% chance of hitting things, so not sure why I'm seeing a 55% chance once you count hits and misses up. The fact it didn't change when Focused Acc was up is deeply suspicious. Every other power saw a 7-8% improvement overall. 

 

The three lines at the bottom of this snippet are for the Burn pseudopet (not the main power). Not sure why Streakbreaker is getting involved there. 


2022-10-07 14:09:39 HIT Galaxy Archon! Your Burn power had a 95.00% chance to hit, you rolled a 62.07.
2022-10-07 14:09:39 HIT Equinox Adjutant! Your Burn power had a 95.00% chance to hit, you rolled a 87.26.
2022-10-07 14:09:39 HIT Archon Alberto! Your Burn power had a 95.00% chance to hit, you rolled a 4.24.
2022-10-07 14:09:39 Vortex Cor Leonis Fire hits you with their Flamethrower for 1.98 points of Fire damage over time.
2022-10-07 14:09:39 You Taunt Equinox Adjutant with your Gauntlet.
2022-10-07 14:09:39 You hit Equinox Adjutant with your Burn for 137.63 points of Fire damage.
2022-10-07 14:09:39 You hit Equinox Adjutant with your Burn for 61.93 points of Fire damage.
2022-10-07 14:09:39 You hit Equinox Adjutant with your Reactive Interface for 8.83 points of Fire damage over time.
2022-10-07 14:09:39 You hit Equinox Adjutant with your Blazing Aura for 20.38 points of Fire damage.
2022-10-07 14:09:39 You hit Equinox Adjutant with your Blazing Aura for 9.16 points of Fire damage.
2022-10-07 14:09:39 You hit Eclipse Nightwolf Champion with your Blazing Aura for 15.04 points of Fire damage.
2022-10-07 14:09:39 You hit Eclipse Nightwolf Champion with your Blazing Aura for 6.76 points of Fire damage.
2022-10-07 14:09:39 You Taunt Archon Alberto with your Gauntlet.
2022-10-07 14:09:39 You hit Archon Alberto with your Burn for 104.87 points of Fire damage.
2022-10-07 14:09:39 You hit Archon Alberto with your Burn for 47.19 points of Fire damage.
2022-10-07 14:09:39 You hit Archon Alberto with your Reactive Interface for 6.73 points of Fire damage over time.
2022-10-07 14:09:39 You hit Archon Alberto with your Blazing Aura for 15.52 points of Fire damage.
2022-10-07 14:09:39 You hit Archon Alberto with your Blazing Aura for 6.98 points of Fire damage.
2022-10-07 14:09:39 You Taunt Galaxy Archon with your Gauntlet.
2022-10-07 14:09:39 You hit Galaxy Archon with your Burn for 137.63 points of Fire damage.
2022-10-07 14:09:39 You hit Galaxy Archon with your Burn for 61.93 points of Fire damage.
2022-10-07 14:09:39 You hit Galaxy Archon with your Blazing Aura for 20.38 points of Fire damage.
2022-10-07 14:09:39 You hit Galaxy Archon with your Blazing Aura for 9.16 points of Fire damage.
2022-10-07 14:09:39 Burn:  HIT Galaxy Archon! Your Burn power had a 91.98% chance to hit, you rolled a 74.87.
2022-10-07 14:09:39 Burn:  HIT Archon Alberto! Your Burn power was forced to hit by streakbreaker.
2022-10-07 14:09:39 Burn:  HIT Equinox Adjutant! Your Burn power had a 91.98% chance to hit, you rolled a 28.41.

 

 

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Aaah, never mind I've figured it out. Looks like the parser is bugged but just for misses. It's adding the Misses from the Burn Patch to the misses from the parent but not hits. So the Accuracy of the parent power is skewed downwards (212 = 203 from the Burn Patch + 9 from the parent power which is what I see in the raw file when I go regex hunting). 

 

 

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