Troo Posted October 25, 2022 Share Posted October 25, 2022 (edited) Whatever happened to the GM led Weekly Discussions and the associated write-ups? On 1/20/2020 at 6:35 AM, GM Miss said: Weekly Discussion 10: Base items Reveal hidden contents What the community would like to see: • An options to turn prestige back on • P2w vendor • Merit vendor npc • Opening doors • Ability to costume npcs/Name them • Apartments • Floating animations for objects • Copy and paste feature • Higher limit to plot placement • Ability to limit horizontal movement to one axis • Ability to lock items in place • Work on Water/Fountain/Waterfall Effects • Ability to size items • Ability to place items more efficiently in hallways • Ability to save a set of assembled items/Ability to multi-move a set of items Items: • Shipping containers • More tintable objects! • High rise cranes • Futuristic monorail train • Salvage racks/enhancement racks with more space/different aesthetics • Recipie racks! • Empty shelves • Cargo Ships / More vehicles • More Staircase options • Building block pieces • Curved Glass/ More glass options • More pillar options • More lettering options • Signs/Plaques • Namable NPCS • Empty weapon/display cases/lab equipment Weekly Discussion 11: Frankentype Suggestions Reveal hidden contents • MM / DPS (LOTS of MM talk!) • Paladin Tank Primary / Support • Ranged Tank Tank Primary / Ranged Secondary • Tank Primary / Control • Support/Melee – Melee/Support • OP FotY Support/Support Weekly Discussion 12: Costume and Character Creation Ideas Reveal hidden contents Costumes Generic: • Long Skirt / Robe Bottoms • More male / Female Hairstyles • More Colors • Weapon Holsters • More tails • ASYMETRICAL ITEMS!!!! • More chest symbols • Back symbols • More chest symbols than one color option • More reptile/Aquatic options • More Weapon options for guns! • Royal themed items • More body types! • More Hat options – with and without hair! • More monster heads! • More unhuman body parts! • Arm wings! • More hoodie options • Jewelry options! • Stealth to not interfere with costumes Costume Specific: • Sybil / Desdaemona • Apply patterns to fur • AV Costume Pieces • Legacy Costume Pieces • Ability to color eyes • Crey Armor • PPD Brickstown Outfits • Freakshow parts! • Coral Details • Rikti parts! Weekly Discussion 13: AE Ideas Reveal hidden contents • Making all current powersets available to bad boys • Player made Safeguard/Mayhem missions • Incarnate level missions • More abstract missions (Like Summer Blockbuster) • New Enemy poses • AE Wishlist from VonBoom: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1lH3-wrEcUcNAAa1_tR4vx782lvEiGZ-02qAVywtzJRo/edit • WS/PB options • Power Color customization for mobs • Make your own maps • Tutorial mission arc • Make female/male options open to all characters. • Working on customized dialogue • Giant Monsters • More customizable difficulty • Being able to change the in-mission music • Minigames like ski-slopes • More recent maps • Mission map has native allies that turn at some point – like Prae maps • Mission entrances outside of the AE? Weekly Discussion 15: Under powered ATs Reveal hidden contents AT’s • Peacebringers • MM’s End Cost + Minion Health • Sentinel – Dmg / Survivability are both sub par • Blasters – Inherit • Tanks – Dmg / Taunt / Numbers (See test server for possible future changes) • Defender – Inherit • Dominator – Inherit Powersets: • Trick Arrow – Overall needs work • Invuln – Not as powerful as it used to be Weekly Discussion 16: Future Events Reveal hidden contents In game: • GM led zone events with signature heroes • An event in KW • Krampus Invasions • More invasions where certain villain types fight in RI/PC From the GMS: • Costume contests that take into account bio/name/short monologue • TF speed runs • Temp Title parties • Community picks a gms costume for the week/month • More monster mashes! • Gift parties where GMs hand out large insps-merits Weekly Discussion 17: Masterminds Reveal hidden contents Overall: • Customize pets • Buff pets health/level • Make pets cost less end to cast • Buff t1/2 pet accuracy • Make people be able to walk through pets Individual Sets: • Buff Mercenaries • Detonator power – Make it to where you can choose • Beast Mastery needs a buff – not enough damage or survivability. On 10/31/2020 at 9:30 AM, GM ColdSpark said: Weekly Discussion 79: Mercenaries. Discuss! Reveal hidden contents This contains highlights from both Discord & The forum weekly discussion. (Link to the Forum Discussion) November 28th to December 5th 2020 Here's the summary from the chat about the much discussed MM Primary. It's a set most of you seem to *want* to really like but there's just a few too many little (or large) issues to make it a real "tier 1" choice. There was a great deal of agreement across the discussion this week (hence the list is smaller than normal!) Suggestions: Add DR to both the upgrades to make them less squishy, a more tanky-like MM set Add stacking damage buffs to the upgrades but without increasing their hardiness Make Serum PBAoE to affect all pets Replace medic with a 3rd soldier (possibly putting the medic back in as a separate power) - aids the slotting issues on the T1 power. Possibly Medic becomes replacement for Serum Replace serum with an additional damage - e.g. a forced grenade throw from all pets or an artillery-like / airtrike power Increase damage output of Spec Ops (add cones, remove brawl) Replace the Medic Frag grenade with a buff that they give to the other pets Replace the soldiers cones with targetted AoE Reduce recharge on some of the long recharge powers across the pets Add toxic damage to attacks Shorter animations on the bursts from the rifles Remove redraw of weapons A little refresh to the artwork, particularly of the T1 so they look more modern and less WWII Replace Commando with more like a gunslinger Adding a take-cover power instead of Serum with +Def, Regen, Range and Accuracy. Stays where it is cast. Make the Spec Ops more like devices blasters (drones, mines etc) Weekly Discussion 80: More Hard Mode or New Zones & Missions? Reveal hidden contents This contains highlights from both Discord & The forum weekly discussion. (Link to the Forum Discussion) December 5th to December 12th 2020 Here's the summary from this weeks discussion - lots of great thoughts and debate this week so do check the link to get the whole picture or use the pins in the Discord. General thoughts fell into the following areas: More micro-tuning options - like the way that AE and Exp Boosters etc let players control their experience (no pun intended) more. Re-work of zones - Hazard zones in particular e.g Creys, Boomtown and the Abandoned Sewers (potentially using echo's to preserve the existing ones) Scaling of lower level content so that you can go back and play it at level 50 and it still be challenging to your level New content always welcome, but the playerbase seemed realistic about the workload of this vs the available resources in the HC team Work more on some of started lore areas e.g. Blood of the Black Stream Additions of tip missions dropping in co-op zones More toggles in Orob that add further challenges like buffs and debuffs Creating new maps that can be used by the tips/paper mission selector Completion of Kalisiti Wharf Further work in Praetoria to flesh it out - inc PvP zone Create badges that are awarded based on team composition - necessitating certain ATs (e.g. all-tank task force or TF run with 4 etc) Tip missions that utilise selected (and locked down to prevent game-breaking edits) AE missions as source Add a +5x12 option More zone based events or mechanics, e.g. a Brickstown one based around the Ziggurat with a TF that spawns a zone event Make outdoor spawns work like GM spawns where they're relative to each players level (minions white, lt yellow, boss orange etc) Tweaks to the "purple patch" to increase the to-hit for enemies Give "leadership" type buffs to Lts and Bosses that affect nearby minions Adding a "Bounty" system in Hazard zones to hunt x type of enemies providing reward currency/temp powers etc Addition of zone "guides" like we have in Hollows to point players arriving in zone to the key contacts Give some of the lower level enemy groups a chance to go "big-time" like the Igneous coming out of Hollows or the Leviathan going to town in Sharkhead Weekly Discussion 81: The Player-Market Reveal hidden contents This contains highlights from both Discord & The forum weekly discussion. (Link to the Forum Discussion) December 13th to December 19th 2020 Here's the summary from this weeks discussion Issues identified: Merit usage - current model means most merits are spent to by converter to sell for inf. Adjust prices for some enhancements and put Hero/Villain/Winter packs on the merit vendor The UI bug showing the proper prices is a problem for market transparency - improvement would be to also show a longer history/trend ( @Grouchybeastdidn't seem so bothered by this fix though 😉 ) Shards and threads are harder to convert to inf than Sorting is unreliable Text scaling in the AH screens Crafting costs at 50 mean that some recipes simply are not worth crafting (P2W table is cheaper to obtain than via the crafting badges) Positives: Pooling of items much better than on live Attuned versions being bucketed with non-attuned price-wise Market seeding is v effective Requests & Suggestions: A deeper explanation of the devs view on the market and inf-sinks increase "stacks" from 10 to 99 (possibly an unlockable ability) Reworking of the influence "currency" to be more like influence where you could affect the in-game world, missions offered etc Possible rename of influence/infamy to a more simple currency/resources-type name Addition of a market tutorial much like the university/crafting tutorial Add a "claim all" button for purchases Access in bases/PvP (though the current issues of having to do a db load were acknowledged) Utilize merits as some kind of universal salvage (or Brainstorms) Add option to stop salvage drop (at different levels) or auto-sell Add a power to all that is simply the /ah command Add a warning on the merit vendor that "some things may be effectively cheaper on AH than using merits" Ability to drag and drop to order things in AH Add fixed price items in P2W to the fixed price AH section Add a time stamp to the date stamp in selling history Create dayjob salvage which is used to create certain IOs only Make merits tradable (removes converters as a "middle-person" Add seeded bids to create a price floor on certain items or "fair price range" recommendations Also sharing @gchpaco's analysis of merit values relative to boosters and converters and sets from Discord as I think it's a neat summary. As far as merits go, 10 merits buys you 30 converters which can be relied on to go for 70,000. That's 2.1 mil. 10 merits also buys you 2 boosters, which can go for anywhere between 1 and 1.5 mil; the converters are a better call if the market is feeling like 1 mil for boosters, they're a nuisance though. These are broadly somewhat comparable items, tho. That means 100 merits is "worth" around 20-25 mil. Event IOs (which includes winter IOs) and ATOs all go for 100 merits, and when I trade in ATOs I usually sell them for 8, so this is, like, 3x the price. Wiki has this for rewards table: IO Set: 50 Merits for Rare, 20 Merits for Uncommon. Respec Recipe: 50 Merits. PvP IO Sets: 100 Merits. Standard Invention Enhancements: 5 Merits. Very Rare IO Sets: 100 Merits. That puts rare IOs at being "worth" according to the vendor between 10 and 12 mil, which is hilariously wrong, like about 10x wrong; respec for 10-12 mil which is like 6x the market price, PVP IO sets for 20-25 which is about treble the going price, usually, and purples at 20-25 which is actually? almost right. Not all VR recipes sell for that much money, but VR IOs after crafting usually do. The trick is that a purple is going to cost you 3 rare salvage (so another 1.5 mil there normally) and 600,000 inf. So basically the crafting costs add another 2 mil of overhead. It might be cost effective to craft some highly used VRs—say, Apocalypse, or Hecatomb—using merits for the recipe and making it, but IDK. Winter IOs are sometimes a better deal. so that's somebody who does a lot of market work. TL;DR; 1 merit is worth around 200,000-230,000 inf, if converted properly. Check pricing accordingly. Another thing that is out of whack though is merits for catalysts. 20 merits buy one catalyst. You want depending on number of winter sets usually between 12 and 20 catalysts for ATOs and Winter IOs on a finished build, so limited market demand, and they usually go for between 2-3 mil. So catalysts are at least 2x overpriced. Weekly Discussion 82: Vote! Reveal hidden contents This contains results from both Discord & The forum weekly discussion. (Link to the Forum Discussion) December 19th 2020 to January 2nd 2021 Hi Folks - here's the results from the vote that will drive the next few weeks of topics. Thanks everyone for voting and of course, Happy New Year! Weekly Discussion 83: Task/Strike Force Revamps Reveal hidden contents This contains results from both Discord & The forum weekly discussion. (Link to the Forum Discussion) January 3rd to January 9th 2021 General thoughts: Remove heavy chains of "defeat alls" Create a new Posi-level SF redside Implement scaling to player level - so that a level 50 could tak on a level 54 Dr Vahz Adjust risk vs reward - e.g. Master runs to give more merits Hunts to move to be non-zone specific and to be grouped so they could be being done simultaneously Gold-side to get a TF (possibly the Calvin Scott content tweaked) First & Nghtward should get TFs The best TFs are the ones with "unique" content/ideas/mechanics Remove standard maps - make TF ones unique Increase reward of TF Commander to incentivise it Add some unique loading screens (community to submit artwork) Most missions should have multiple objectives More unique powers like the Rad Shields in the TV respec trial Add a new BaB TF in Kings to complete the Skull story line More fights like the shadow simulacrum SSTFs need a lot of love (Faathim being the least problematic) Task / Strike Force Specific thoughts (collated where players submitted full ideas): Penny Yin: Penelope Yin should not be hosting a TF about Freakshow. Her role is obviously to host the Clockwork TF. So she should take over the Clockwork King TF, which should be revamped to not be painfully long, or possibly split into two separate TFs like Positron's. Ideally it should be about finding out more about Blue Steel's background, with the CK trying to get back at Blue Steel in various ways. Part two can be a reworked version of the TF we have now, which I to be honest can't even tell you what it's about. It's oh so very mysterious, until we find out that the Clockwork King is behind the Clockwork and their mysterious behavior. Wow. No, it needs an update, badly. Here's the deal: Penelope Yin can still be hosting the Freakshow TF from Independence Port, but a younger version of her can be the contact for the Clockwork King TF, perhaps set to start in Kings Row near Blue Steel, or in Faultline. If that sounds irksome, we could even let her father be the contact for the Clockwork King Task Force, as he might have noticed the King's interest in his daughter and want to protect her from the criminally insane psychic ghost. Why is the final mission door NOT in Terra Volta? I know it is the terra volta map but still would be kinda nice to have to actually go to the zone. Synapse: What about Synapse then? Well, his background is all about Crey, so he should obviously take over the Crey TF and assume Manticore's role. There can be something about him not being able to go up against Crey personally because they have countermeasures to him and his powers since they created him, and he needs our help to deal with the countess and her evil schemes. He doesn't need to move from his location in Skyway - his old TF have you mostly running around Steel Canyon after all, so it shouldn't be a problem. Overall I think Synapse is very salvageable. What could we improve in it to get it closer to ITF quality? I'm glad you asked! A lot of people advocate for trimming down those early missions (which, did I mention, are very similar and repetitive?) and I don't disagree. Most of the end stuff is good, especially that Babbage spawn, and I wouldn't even necessarily reduce the number of zones you have to go to (though maybe we should make sure the Boomtown mission door is always near the entrance to the zone). I think the most important thing to look at is the Clockwork King, though. He should be the most memorable part of this TF: we see for the first time here that he's not just a robot, or a guy building robots, but a psychic brain in a jar*! That's cool as heck! Aaaand he's down. I didn't even get to see him because my team ran ahead. Let's give him more of a spotlight: at least a cutscene where he says some sinister stuff, like Dr. Vahzilok gets in the Posi 2 revamp, and I'd buff him in combat a bit as well. He needs a bit more HP so you don't miss him entirely, maybe a psychic attack or two to hammer home that part of his story, and I'd personally throw in a Clockwork minion ambush that he summons when he gets to 50% HP - nothing too serious, as this is still a level 20 TF, but a little bit of a surprise kicker. And let's give him his own room to stand in, at least! *I don't recall if we learn he's a psychic here, but the brain-in-a-jar bit was news to me the first time I ran this TF. Cut the three substations down to one, combine "defeat all robots in headquarters" and "defeat Bertha" into one mission (cutting the patrol in between), cut the first warehouse. Why is this in Skyway if the entire TF is done in Steel??? Remove all but 1 defeat all Remove the street sweep Remove the patrols or at least have something happen when the patrol point is clicked like I don't know maybe a nice ambush or 6 No BOOM Why is this the only AV at the end we get a special gun that turns the fight into a cake walk? Quick Fix - move the defeat alls to small maps Full rework suggestion from @tidge Reveal hidden contents I feel like this should be split (roughly evenly) between missions in only two zones. It would seem that Steel Canyon and Skyway City would be the obvious choices, but I wouldn't automatically rule out either Boomtown or Kings Row. Boomtown doesn't have a trainer, but leveraging a Hazard Zone could be fun. It might be too much trouble for this level range. I'll come back to this. Kings Row has the ability to leverage the presence of Blue Steel. The (current) first half should consider revising the "defeat all". I personally don't object to there being a "run between objectives" in a single zone, but it doesn't really scream "Task Force" as much as "Forced Tasks". I don't like that the entire team gets scattered by this activity. Just spitballing, but I like the way The revised Yin TF flows: Rescue (in an instanced part of a city zone) Objectives (behind a door) Multiple specific defeats (behind a door) Boss fight with "summoned groups" I find the "summoning spawns" to be fun, as long as there is not a terribly long delay between spawns (ehem, Terra Volta trial). The proposed second arc seems natural to keep the Skyway warehouses, the GM spawn and the AV. To spice this one up, I'd beef up the "Court" (requiring a defeat of multiple specific members of the court: Queen, Prince, Knave, Bishop, Knight) add a pseudo-pet enemy combat effect to one of the missions... similar to Battle Maiden's fields of death... but slightly less deadly.... some Psy damage, or Endurance drain. I'd like the back half of this arc to feel like it was designed by a kid really into chess (or D&D). Full rework suggestion from @DougGraves Reveal hidden contents Defeat all clockwork in station (Steel) Stop all robots in headquarters (Steel) Go talk to the foreman (Steel) Stop Clockwork Lord its guards (Sky) Babbage Ambush (Sky) Get immobilizer from Synapse (Sky) Defeat clockwork king, his court (Sky) Manticore: Manticore could move to Peregrine Island and host a new TF about Malta, the "Natural" enemy faction. It can expand upon the story hinted at in Dark Astoria, where Malta were going to use nano-tech stolen from Warrior Earth to boost their own forces against the incarnate threat. Maybe Manticore isn't too keen on seeing more incarnates either, and is working both sides, as he is wont to do. If Peregrine already feels too full of content, the Manticore TF could be in Kallisti Wharf, and could be made co-op since villains aren't happy about Malta getting improved either, and Manticore isn't above working with villains. Turn the first defeat-all into just a rescue. There are only two defeat-alls in this TF but the maps tend to be huge. Stop the all over the place with the mission doors. Really should primarily take place in Brix and Crey's folly. The rescue should be an escort even though I loath those. Numina: Numina is another TF I can't tell you what it's about, but I remember a lot of running around various zones hunting low-level enemies. As a showcase of "look how far you've come" and a tour of the city we've left behind it was probably okay back when max level was 40, but now it feels a bit disappointing. I don't really have a better idea for what to do with it but a level 40ish Task Force focused on the Circle of Thorns and their machinations in Founders Fall seems like it would be more fun than running around all over the place, for very little enjoyment. Maybe throw in some enemies from Night Ward too, to mix things up a bit. Get rid of the hunts, they are just a time sink. Citadel: Cut the second mission, the "defeat base leader and guards" after you take the parts to the guy, and two of the three defeat-alls at the end. Everything in it is vanilla. The bosses are vanilla, the maps are extensively reused and vanilla, the dialog is vanilla. It is so vanilla, you could use this TF as pudding and nobody would notice. Stop the back and forth between Talos and IP. I'm ok with the 2 zones but just make first half in Talos and final in IP or vice versa. Remove most of the defeat alls Revamp the maps. How about only 1 cave base? Full rework suggestion from @DougGraves Reveal hidden contents Investigate Council Base (IP) Defeat base leader and guards (Talos) Defeat base leader, his guards (Talos) Defeat all soldiers in base (Talos) Defeat Vandal and his minions (Talos) Dr Q: Hold an AE contest to rewrite this TF, winner gets put in the game. You can cover the entire plot of this long, pointless slog in five missions and even with the limited tools available in AE it would still be more interesting than what is in the game. Add an AV at the end Full rework suggestion in spoiler from @Moonscribe Reveal hidden contents Mission 1: Combines the first five missions of the original TF. You are sent straight into a Rularuu cave, without any hunt missions preceding it, to rescue explorers from the Rularuu. But when you get there you find that some of them have been killed by high-tech weapons. Waiting at the end of the mission is a Crey boss whom you defeat and capture - maybe the cave is even a new map that transitions into a secret lab where Crey is capturing Rularuu for their experiments, which the explorers stumbled onto after following some mysterious researchers. This plus the fact that you can literally see Crey mobs all over the zone is more than enough info for Dr. Q to conclude that Crey is, in fact, in the Shard causing trouble. Mission 2: Combines missions 6 through 13 of the original TF. NPC scouts have located a major Crey base for you (in Firebase Zulu, not Paragon City), and you go attack it and arrest the leader, NOT everyone in it. In that base you discover advanced portal tech Crey used to get into the zone, escaped Rularuu using it to build dimensional gizmos that could get them into Primal Earth if completed, and evidence that the tech comes from Nemesis. Also, there are Crey operatives planning to meet with somebody at an unexplored location about said tech. Mission 3: Combines missions 14 through 16 of the original TF. You go to the unexplored location and find it is a Nemesis stronghold, which uses the cool map from the RWZ arcs. It's already under attack by the Rularuu, so you have to arrest all the Crey representatives and the Nemesis leader while fending off Rularuu ambushes. (Maybe said leader has a cool new experimental EB Nemesis has been working on there in secret - a weather control automaton, to follow up on the Meteorologist mini-arc?) You also learn about the times and locations of interdimensional transits planned by Crey and Nemesis. Mission 4: Combines missions 17 through 19 of the original TF. There is one Crey base in the Shard and one in Paragon involved in the next transit, and you head to the one in the Shard while NPC heroes simultaneously shut down the one in Paragon - maybe you even get to communicate with them remotely, and hit glowies to deactivate security systems in the other base, cut off squads of bosses coming at you through the portal, etc. Unfortunately, Countess Crey's legal superpowers have already gotten her out of jail by this point, despite your heroic efforts with Janet Kellum earlier. You must defeat her and Hopkins as a team in order to shut down Crey's efforts here for good. But in the process, you learn there was a second portal base Crey was using where they were transporting Rularuu into Paragon, and they've lost contact with that base. Mission 5: Combines missions 20 through 22 of the original TF. While Crey's second portal base was easily shut down by other heroes after Countess Crey's arrest last mission, the transported Rularuu have already escaped into Oranbega and you must stop their final attempt to build a portal to the Shadow Shard and start an invasion. This time you do have to go to Paragon City, but at least you don't have to go back, and the mission is in Peregrine now so it's relatively quick to get to it. You must defeat every Rularuu mob present, but the map is mostly Circle so it is not a defeat-all. But you do also have to defeat a powerful Circle AV on site, perhaps Baron Zoria himself (or rather, the powerful Oranbegan mage who has been possessing his body - I forget what happened to him in canon, so not sure if this works or not). Or maybe a cool new Circle AV who is harnessing the power of Rularuu directly, Rulu-Shin style, and thinks they can channel it into a new magical power source that will lead Oranbega to supremacy once again. Moral of the story is as before: please don't let the Rularuu out of the Shard, it's bad. Also of course the Countess successfully argues in court she was there to shut down these illegal operations in the Shard, not oversee them, and gets out of jail before you know it. Hess: Hess doesn't need that much editing I don't think. The trap in the first mission needs to be beefed up significantly. Toss the scientist from the second mission into the first, and you can do away with the second entirely. Add some objectives to the third and fourth missions to make them more dynamic instead of just "beat up this guy and click this blinky." Beef up Burkholder to reduce the "the AV died before I even saw him" issue. The part that really needs to be revamped is the radar stations. While taking them out is a nice way to add to the idea that you're assaulting a major Council stronghold, the execution is dumb. They send you back and forth across the map, and if you took Fly as your travel power or if you're a slow loader the mission is done before you even get in. So here's my idea for a revamp: make them not instances. Put the radar stations right out in the zone, Cover them in turrets and Council. Then, once you accept the mission "Take out the radar stations" you have to go click a blinky at each one, to shut down the radar station and collect whatever information is on there. They're open world blinkies that can be done in any order, like getting those flowers for Marauder's girlfriend. Long interrupt time, so you have to fight the turrets and Council at the base instead of just stealth-clicking. Yes, it's possible that someone else in the zone will clear the base before you get there, but if the respawn time is short enough it shouldn't be much of a problem, especially since Striga isn't usually heavily populated. That's just my idea for working with what's reasonably feasible; the ideal revamp would remove all that "Burkholder's the only one who can pilot it", you beat him up, take his robot, get a nice cutscene of you piloting the Mega Mech out of the volcano as it self-destructs behind you, and then, I dunno, drive it to Boomtown to fight the Council War Walker? It would be nice to be able to drive it to Grandville to take potshots at Recluse's stupid tower (building Vigilante alignment points in the process) but I don't think it can swim. Lady Grey: Fix the issue with the min level or that Hami will only spawn at 50 Tarikoss: Add a bit of variety to the Bat'Zul demons Silver Mantis: Add a cutscene for Duray arriving so players know he's there Ice Mistral: Sort the doors out so that the same door doesn't lead to two places in the same SF Barracuda: More info for the team about Reichsman being invincible and fix the Patron spawns Weekly Discussion 84: Kinetic Melee Reveal hidden contents This contains results from both Discord & The forum weekly discussion. (Link to the Forum Discussion) January 10th to 16th 2021 Here's some of the key thoughts coming out of the discussion. There was a lot of universal agreement and I'd like to call out @Galaxy Brainfor their detailed analysis of the powers and some of the animations too. Great job everyone! Alternative animations would be nice The sound effects are not to everyone's taste Animation times after T2 are slow Suggestion to add the -dam debuff across the powerset The Concentrated Strike crit chance on scrappers could do with a tweak Make power Sophone faster and buff the to-hit and damage boosts The combination of melee and ranged is appealing and it has a unique feel to it Stalker version of KM seems v popular compared to the other ATs, primarily because of the build-up power they get An idea was put forward to replace Siphon Power with "Yin and Yang" stances a bit like staff Suggestion to switch the ranged powers to instead tp you to the target, speedster-style @RoboKnightSeems to want the damage tweaked but it was a little hard to tell in what way 😉 Also a suggestion for a mechanic to absorb damage and then be able to unleash it back out again (I can imagine the devs tearing out hair at that one but it does sound fun!) Weekly Discussion 85: T1 Immobilises in Control Sets Reveal hidden contents This contains results from both Discord & The forum weekly discussion. (Link to the Forum Discussion) January 17th to 23rd 2021 Here's some of the key thoughts coming out of the discussion. On balance I'd say more people said they don't take them than do, but there were some strong advocates for their uses, particularly so on Controllers. A little shout out for the Discord contributors this week who I think win the award for being most creative this week with their ideas! Controllers take them as a bit of an ST damag boost and for setting up containment - less so with Dominators for some players. Would be good to increase the speed of the DoT being applied There seems to be an imbalance between sets which already have decent damage getting the best damaging ST immobs as well Suggestion to link being immobed to increase the secondary effect of the control set on that target. Reports that some immobs don't take IOs that they probably should - e.g. Stone Prison is -def but won't take accurate defense debuff or defense debuff sets. Linked to that - a suggestion to create a number of IO sets specific to the immobs a bit like the new End Mod sets. Also a suggestion on the secondary sets to swap out the T1 and T2 and/or to add some -def / res or a small AoE speed debuff around the immob'd target (difficult terrain type concept) Mesmerise stands out a little by offering a high mag, non position psi damage (good for Mog!) Lift stands out slightly by being faster than the others. Stone Prison the other end of that scale. Incentivise T1s by increasing Overpowering chance % and for Doms increasing the dom build rate Possibly add a -status protection effect to them, an immob'd target then becoming easier to hold, sleep etc. Potentially change AoE immob to be more PBAoE and then add -range to the T1 to adjust function A suggestion that if you hit a target which is immob'd with another control power, the remaining DoT then bursts. Or the other way around where an ST immob applied to a controlled target triggers some kind of effect (depending on set) Apply a damage buff to the ST immob based on how many other powers from that set you have - a concept of "mastery" (need a diff word) of the power and your focussing it all against a single target. So as you level up your ST immob becomes more relevant Weekly Discussion 86: Base Building Reveal hidden contents This contains results from both Discord & The forum weekly discussion. (Link to the Forum Discussion) January 24th to 31st 2021 Here's some summarised comments from the week - thanks all for your contributions and special thanks to @Naomifor dropping in with some great feedback and info for the community! Ordering / sorting of the items in the base could be improved - so much to choose from but hard to find what you're after. A base tutorial would be fun The ability to "pre-fab" items for re-using groups of multiple items Nudge ability to move things just a touch Able to disable click to teleport eyedropper tool to select already placed item and have it ready to duplicate F5 settings to be a sticky toggle The return of base raiding Hexcode tinting choices A smaller grid size Ability to resize items Ability to save and share base designs AE access within bases Moving NPCs and Objects Custom TP points with renaming Able to make invisible objects or alpha adjustments Objects with noclip Options to hide all base wars and floors Interactive objects in base (light switches etc) Fix for item drift Personal housing per character A ruler Able to adjust local chat ranges in base Customizable NPCs PvP enabled areas within bases - like a fight room A pop up box for when people enter bases with basic information the owner wants to share with visitors More portals Recently used tab Able to flag areas as indoor/outdoor and set lighting defaults accordingly Able to adjust exit direction from a base portal when you arrive. Items requested: (shoutout to @Wravisfor their excellent Imgur list here https://imgur.com/a/HBGqytE) Colour tintable vanguard portals More surfaces, with various size options, ideally with sides and a bottom, ideally tintable More generic building block items in general, again with sides and bottoms, and ideally tintable. Lighting options that produce colored light. Salvage storage racks that aren't huge and ugly. Alternate options for enhancement and inspiration storage would be good too. A merit reward vendor NPC; the ATM doesn't fit the theme of every base More decorative NPCs, not just civilians. Lava Force fields, in various sizes, like the blue force fields at the border of villain zones. Big ones to keep visitors from going off the edge in outdoor bases, smaller ones for builders to get creative with. Silent versions of items that make noise. Scalable letters Letters with serifs Crawl spaces Walls with windows Round and curved surfaces in diff sizes More Oranbegan architecural pieces More City parts, roads etc Target dummies at least even level Pre-fab buildings for cityscapes Mugs Small water tile Ice themed objects More blue fire FX More lighting that is tintable Items that emit sound FX Items from RWZ Glass bottles, glasses etc Praetorian underground objects The wooden gazebo from the winter cabin map More eastern-themed items More surface textures Towels More Plants More street signs More roof options Cargo containers like from the ships More vehicles Livestock Carriages Farm equipment Tintable butterflies and fish P2W NPCs Doors Curtains Mobs placeable as guards https://forums.homecomingservers.com/search/?q="Weekly Discussion"&quick=1&type=forums_topic&updated_after=any&sortby=newest&search_in=titles Edited October 27, 2022 by Troo added tag 2 "Homecoming is not perfect but it is still better than the alternative.. at least so far" - Unknown (Wise words Unknown!) Si vis pacem, para bellum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lines Posted October 25, 2022 Share Posted October 25, 2022 Exhausted GMs happened. 6 3 1 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelika2 Posted October 25, 2022 Share Posted October 25, 2022 im not doing the math but 3 years Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redletter Posted October 25, 2022 Share Posted October 25, 2022 They realized that We knew that They weren't listening to Us anyhow, so They dropped the pretense and stopped asking Us for feedback... Duh, 1 2 6 4 Resident certified baby Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sovera Posted October 25, 2022 Share Posted October 25, 2022 8 hours ago, Troo said: Whatever happened to the GM led Weekly Discussions and the associated write-ups? https://forums.homecomingservers.com/search/?q="Weekly Discussion"&quick=1&type=forums_topic&updated_after=any&sortby=newest&search_in=titles 2 hours ago, Redletter said: They realized that We knew that They weren't listening to Us anyhow, so They dropped the pretense and stopped asking Us for feedback... Duh, Sounds like we need more GMs who are willing to undertake this with the community, wink wink nudge nudge. 1 - Simple guide for newcomers. - Money making included among other things. - Tanker Fire Armor: the Turtle, the Allrounder, the Dragon, and compilation of Fire Armor builds. - Tanker Stone Armor: beginner friendly (near) immortal Tanker for leveling/end-game and Stone Armor framework. - Brute Rad/Stone and compilation of Brute Stone Armor builds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aracknight Posted October 25, 2022 Share Posted October 25, 2022 (edited) Who'd want to these days. The idea that we have the best, supportive, and non-toxic community, while not completely sundered, has certainly been challenged of late. I've worked behind the scenes on other games in my time, and the behaviour here of late would have easily inspired me to fake covid to get away from this lot for a couple of weeks. Edited October 25, 2022 by Aracknight 6 3 1 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheZag Posted October 25, 2022 Share Posted October 25, 2022 Make Troo do it. 1 2 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MoonSheep Posted October 25, 2022 Share Posted October 25, 2022 4 hours ago, Redletter said: They realized that We knew that They weren't listening to Us anyhow, so They dropped the pretense and stopped asking Us for feedback... Duh, 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seed22 Posted October 25, 2022 Share Posted October 25, 2022 3 hours ago, Aracknight said: Who'd want to these days. The idea that we have the best, supportive, and non-toxic community, while not completely sundered, has certainly been challenged of late. I've worked behind the scenes on other games in my time, and the behaviour here of late would have easily inspired me to fake covid to get away from this lot for a couple of weeks. I can agree to a fault. I wouldnt say the community overall is toxic. In fact, the in-game community is usually helpful! These forums, which thankfully don’t make up too terribly much of the in-game pop, are pretty toxic yeah. But the game community? Seems about as positive as I remember from re-launch and prior. 3 13 Aspiring show writer through AE arcs and then eventually a script 😛 AE Arcs: Odd Stories-Arc ID: 57289| An anthology series focusing on some of your crazier stories that you'd save for either a drunken night at Pocket D or a mindwipe from your personal psychic.|The Pariahs: Magus Gray-Arc ID: 58682| Magus Gray enlists your help in getting to the bottom of who was behind the murder of the Winter Court.| Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aracknight Posted October 25, 2022 Share Posted October 25, 2022 Fair enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheZag Posted October 25, 2022 Share Posted October 25, 2022 There you go troo, your first topic. How to win at forum pvp. 2 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BurtHutt Posted October 25, 2022 Share Posted October 25, 2022 11 hours ago, Aracknight said: Who'd want to these days. The idea that we have the best, supportive, and non-toxic community, while not completely sundered, has certainly been challenged of late. I've worked behind the scenes on other games in my time, and the behaviour here of late would have easily inspired me to fake covid to get away from this lot for a couple of weeks. Interesting take. I think there will always be negative elements in almost every environment. It's just how it goes when a large amount of people are around. However, I don't find the community here too toxic or awful. I did like the Feedback stuff but if you're going to ask for feedback then not use it....there is no point. I know the Devs have listened and given some players what they've asked for....but there are many other items that have been ignored. I don't know what the HC Dev team is capable of or what their mandate is. Maybe one day they will let us in on their direction or thought process. For me, the game has stagnated. I am playing a bit with the recent issue releases but it's not as fun. Maybe another break is warranted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aracknight Posted October 25, 2022 Share Posted October 25, 2022 48 minutes ago, BurtHutt said: Interesting take. I think there will always be negative elements in almost every environment. It's just how it goes when a large amount of people are around. However, I don't find the community here too toxic or awful. I did like the Feedback stuff but if you're going to ask for feedback then not use it....there is no point. I know the Devs have listened and given some players what they've asked for....but there are many other items that have been ignored. I don't know what the HC Dev team is capable of or what their mandate is. Maybe one day they will let us in on their direction or thought process. For me, the game has stagnated. I am playing a bit with the recent issue releases but it's not as fun. Maybe another break is warranted. Maybe the feedback isn't useful because the right question isn't being asked. A generic feedback could mean "is it working" or "do you like it." If all they want to know is if it's working as intended, maybe clearing up what "kind" of feedback they are looking for could be potentially wiser. Prolly not more productive, but at least you'd know the score going in. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MistressOhm Posted October 25, 2022 Share Posted October 25, 2022 Keep in mind the complaints vs complements dynamic of nearly all social circles (and a cornerstone of "Customer Service" training). If someone is pleased with your work or product, they'll share the story for a few days. If someone is displeased with your work or product, they'll share it for a few weeks, months, or even years. I'm sure a psychologist could go into the reasons why, probably something to do with tribal "don't drink that water" protective behavior. But it does mean that people are much more likely to complain than complement. And if you're in any sort of customer-facing job, having to deal with that, you burn out on it. As volunteers? you'll burn out faster. And it's not like the HC team has Indeed on speed dial, to replace anyone that decides they've had enough. 6 AE ARC's (So Far!) -------------------- 15252 Child of the Tsoo - [SFMA] Ninjas, sorcerers, and human trafficking (Origin Story - Stick Figure/Storm Lotus) 50769 Hunt of the Eclipse - [SFMA] Finding something that was lost to Arachnos for nearly 20 years (Origin Story - Daisy Chain) 53149 Spells as a Service - [SFMA] When a young hacker makes a connection between magic and mathematics and encodes it into a computer program, chaos breaks loose! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shred Monkey Posted October 26, 2022 Share Posted October 26, 2022 13 hours ago, MistressOhm said: I'm sure a psychologist could go into the reasons why, probably something to do with tribal "don't drink that water" protective behavior. But it does mean that people are much more likely to complain than complement. I'm not a psychologist, but I am a human, so I have some experience with the subject of human psychology... at least enough to be able to say "oh.. hey.. that sounds right." I heard a discussion about "one event learning." The concept is that if we taste something that tastes bad, we remember that and our brain hard wires an aversion to that experience after one event. The same thing can happen with extreme fear events. This concept also comes up with training dogs. I think there's a connection as well when it comes to how long we remember a bad customer service versus a good customer experience. Also, specific to online communities, generally negative people appear to have more presence because positive people give up and walk away. It's not that the negative people are more right. It's that negative people are bigger jerks and don't know when to shut up. (this last one is my personal theory, and not something from psychology, but.. hey.. it sounds right.) 2 Active on Excelsior: Prismatic Monkey - Seismic / Martial Blaster, Shadow Dragon Monkey - Staff / Dark Brute, Murder Robot Monkey - Arachnos Night Widow Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ruin Mage Posted October 26, 2022 Share Posted October 26, 2022 On what happened? Probably got swamped by moderating in the wake of Page 4 (I wonder why) and Page 5. That and topics ran out or they forgot to pick them back up? alright buddy, it's time to shit yourselfcasts earthquake, activates dispersion bubble Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Developer Cobalt Arachne Posted October 26, 2022 Developer Share Posted October 26, 2022 Not going to overly weigh in on the weekly discussions, since the devs weren't the ones who were responsible for those, but will say something worth mentioning I think in the context of all Homecoming volunteers. The thing that players should keep in mind (that is specifically applicable to Homecoming) is that we are all unpaid volunteers doing this out of passion for the game, sacrificing our free time and energy to contribute in a sort of 'volunteer budget' that we donate to this game from our personal lives for no compensation, that obviously has to come with an inherent threshold of what we can realistically sacrifice before it begins to negatively impact our personal lives, which we cannot allow as this is an unpaid venture that none of us can afford to prioritize in that way. If we exceed our 'volunteer budget' and the game begins to take more away than it gives, then in that scenario there are basically only two options available: We have to adjust how we're managing our volunteer efforts so that the game isn't negatively impacting our personal lives. In the worst case scenario, step away from working on the game entirely because it's not worth sacrificing our personal lives for. When dealing with extremely hostile feedback/player interactions, that very rapidly diminishes the 'volunteer budget' we have available, and between options #1 and #2, we're more likely to go with option #1 which is to just not interact with those players as much, because all of us love this game and we don't want to stop working on it. Despite Homecoming's extraneous efforts to ensure we run the game at nearly-professional levels and quality standards, everyone should keep in mind we are NOT a professionally paid development team, and having to endure feedback laced with beratement and malice makes many of us stop reading almost immediately. If anyone feels like they aren't being heard or aren't being listened to, I would ask you reflect on the manner by which you are communicating your feedback to us. I can confidently say that everyone on our development team is very flexible and extremely accommodating to players who are being respectful and provide feedback out of genuine concern for the game's health and we've made many changes based on those kinds of concerns, sometimes even bending over backwards with extreme efforts and redoing huge amounts of work just to accommodate their desires simply because they communicated to us in a respectful manner."Change Z is total crap and so is whoever thought that change should've been a thing. If you're trying to kill the game, you're doing a great job." Something like this is going to be almost immediately ignored by all of us reading through feedback. Not to imply that this player's concern and dissatisfaction is any less valid, but it's unpleasant and draining to deal with this kind of hostile interaction, which hurts that aforementioned 'volunteer budget'. How many volunteer workers are going to continue volunteering if the people they're working for spit in their faces? Before anybody replies with "Then just don't make bad changes." I'll insist you realize we don't ever make ANY changes with an intended goal to make the game WORSE, if a change we made has negative repercussions, you should express it to us like this:"Change Z has me concerned because it actually undermines Elements A, B, and C in the game, and that kind of marginalizes the players who really enjoyed those elements, what was the development goal behind Change Z? Can we explore alternative solutions that don't marginalize Elements ABC? What about trying my idea Change Y instead?" This is the kind of feedback from players we're super happy to accommodate, discuss, and explain why we did what we did and seek alternate solutions for if our first idea isn't hitting the right beats. Occasionally feedback is missed simply due to it being posted somewhere that we don't check often, but more frequently it gets discarded because the feedback itself is written in a hostile/rude/malicious tone and as unpaid volunteers working for free, we're not obligated to have extended interactions with anybody who's being unnecessarily disrespectful. We're not trying to ruin the game, but if you treat us like we are, that immediately compromises any kind of opportunity for meaningful discussion. You don't have to agree with our positions on changes, in-fact we welcome people challenging our changes, as it helps us refine, improve, and iterate, but that comes with a baseline expectation of it being a respectful interaction if you're hoping for your feedback to be heard and concerns addressed. 3 20 1 12 Love this game and its community? Want to give back? Volunteer as a Game Master! Help make Homecoming the best it can be! Writer of the Patch Notes Red side, best side! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troo Posted October 26, 2022 Author Share Posted October 26, 2022 That seems very reasonable and fair @Cobalt Arachne. Thanks. @everyone - I thought the weekly discussions were a good thing. Discussing potential improvements or changes in direction without the promise that anything would come of it. These also let those who don't discord follow along with what was being discussed there in a summarized manner. 7 "Homecoming is not perfect but it is still better than the alternative.. at least so far" - Unknown (Wise words Unknown!) Si vis pacem, para bellum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neiska Posted October 26, 2022 Share Posted October 26, 2022 41 minutes ago, Cobalt Arachne said: "Change Z has me concerned because it actually undermines Elements A, B, and C in the game, and that kind of marginalizes the players who really enjoyed those elements, what was the development goal behind Change Z? Can we explore alternative solutions that don't marginalize Elements ABC? What about trying my idea Change Y instead?" This is the kind of feedback from players we're super happy to accommodate, discuss, and explain why we did what we did and seek alternate solutions for if our first idea isn't hitting the right beats. Occasionally feedback is missed simply due to it being posted somewhere that we don't check often, but more frequently it gets discarded because the feedback itself is written in a hostile/rude/malicious tone and as unpaid volunteers working for free, we're not obligated to have extended interactions with anybody who's being unnecessarily disrespectful. We're not trying to ruin the game, but if you treat us like we are, that immediately compromises any kind of opportunity for meaningful discussion. You don't have to agree with our positions on changes, in-fact we welcome people challenging our changes, as it helps us refine, improve, and iterate, but that comes with a baseline expectation of it being a respectful interaction if you're hoping for your feedback to be heard and concerns addressed. Hello Cobalt, Tone of voice can be difficult to convey entirely though text, so I shall try to be as respectful, eloquent, and precise with my reply, but I would like to speak about this quoted part specifically. For some of us, we have done just as you prescribed. Something akin to "I enjoy X part of the game. This change damages/reduces/harms that part of the game" and it seemed to go unnoticed or unheard. I am not claiming that it did, but the lack of re-redress or response to such voiced concerns can lead to it be seen as received in the very same manner as your first example of giving feedback. If we receive no reply no matter how we frame the critique then how are we to know it was seen and given thought at all? Speaking personally for a moment, I joined CoH about 6 months after it's public return. And virtually every change that I have spoken up about, more or less has gone the exact opposite. I was against the RoP change. I was against the many AE changes. I was also against some Powerset changes. All for reasons that need not be elaborated on here. Now do I expect the staff to take my "personal" feedback as gospel and cater to my every whim? Certainly not. But the fact of the matter is, is that I am hardly alone. There are many who are in the exact same circumstance as myself. Which leads that the same people either for or against any given change or update, always seems to go "their" way. Which can then lead to all kinds of suspicions of favoritism and bias, or even the thought of the "whose" feedback is far more important than "what" that feedback even is. The simple fact of the matter is, is that there are more people who only learn of a change during the final testing, than during the brainstorming stage. So many of us only get to give any input after the decisions have already been made, the question is just "how much." And for the majority who don't even use the forums, they don't learn of a change until it actually happens. As recent example, the last time I was on I was still seeing people asking what happened to AE in Atlas. Lastly I would like to share my last experience with you. I will leave names unmentioned but I do have screenshots of the incident. But to summarize, I voiced my concerns in a respectful manner over a particular change. As usual, the debate became passionate and heated on both sides. But the only comment from any staff member on the topic, was a mocking comment in the discord. Suffice to say, I took that a bit personal. And I was suitably distressed enough that I will no longer voice my thoughts on any given issue, even if asked. Because A.) it matters none whatsoever one way or another not only if I give my thoughts on it, but even also if I am even for or against the change in question, as well as B.) I don't care to be mocked not only by staff, but by other players who have a different opinion from my own. I will admit that I, myself did add fuel to the fire, so I claim no sort of better nature. It happens, we are all humans here. But to me the Staff members conduct was unacceptable. I took enough offense to it that to this day I have not logged into HC. A ticket was submitted, and I did speak to a different staff member about it, but I have yet to receive any sort of apology. And at this point I don't really expect to. To summarize, and speaking only for myself here, I won't voice my thoughts on any matter in question one way or another. Because it doesn't matter if I do or not, and at least if I don't then I won't be jaded and mocked for it. And I am not sure if I will even continue to play HC, but more because of the actions of the staff than any change itself. When you are mocked by the staff for your input, even when specifically asked for, it certainly puts things into a different light. Again, nothing in this reply is meant to be insulting or disrespectful. But it would be disingenuous to present this issue as only coming from one group of players. Best wishes. To you and all of the staff. 6 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sovera Posted October 26, 2022 Share Posted October 26, 2022 Cobalt's post underlines how much of the behaviour and aggressive (not necessarily rude in terms of using insults) conversation directed at devs is similar to a situation most of are horrified at witnessing: people screaming at retail workers/food servers/waiters. 8 - Simple guide for newcomers. - Money making included among other things. - Tanker Fire Armor: the Turtle, the Allrounder, the Dragon, and compilation of Fire Armor builds. - Tanker Stone Armor: beginner friendly (near) immortal Tanker for leveling/end-game and Stone Armor framework. - Brute Rad/Stone and compilation of Brute Stone Armor builds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Developer Cobalt Arachne Posted October 26, 2022 Developer Share Posted October 26, 2022 2 hours ago, Neiska said: For some of us, we have done just as you prescribed. Something akin to "I enjoy X part of the game. This change damages/reduces/harms that part of the game" and it seemed to go unnoticed or unheard. I am not claiming that it did, but the lack of re-redress or response to such voiced concerns can lead to it be seen as received in the very same manner as your first example of giving feedback. I can only speak for myself, as each individual developer is different in how they prefer to do things, and some are more willing to weigh in while others prefer to read feedback silently and make their changes based on what they've read. Other times, I 100% intended to respond to a post, but then I got busy during the day, and 14 hours later when I actually have a spare moment I completely forgot I intended to respond. Another side-effect of being volunteers is simply that time gets away from us, since when we can put time into things loves to change on us without warning. In regards to specific things I was responsible for (Dr. Aeon Strike Force, Advanced Difficulty Modes, Aether Rewards) I have generally weighed in on feedback that warranted it, and have made changes based on the feedback when the points challenged the design goals in a valid way (the Aether costume badges were originally set over twice as high than the numbers they released at for example). Here is some insights, speaking to the players as a whole, in hopes people will approach feedback more constructively if they understand the best methods to make sure that their feedback is valuable to us, and thus more likely to impact development direction. My recommendations to everyone if you want your feedback to be heard, at least speaking from the context of my own developer experience: 1# - Ensure your feedback is actually challenging the specific reason behind a change Oftentimes a change is made with a specific reason in mind, take the starter zone AE building removals for example, which we stated in the first couple responses was to improve Atlas Park's zone performance and also ensure new players know how to change city zones before accessing power leveling. A lot of feedback on that change ended up focusing on tweaking power leveling speeds or AE rewards instead of removing the buildings, which topically related to AE, didn't actually address the original reason why we removed them. As a result, some players who wanted the AE building to stay in Atlas Park felt their feedback was ignored when in actuality it was due to their feedback not actually being related at all to the reason the change was made in the first place. If that feedback had also explained why/how tweaking power leveling speeds would have also fixed the zone performance/new player guidance without needing to remove the buildings it would have been far more usable to us. If somebody can't see the change's reason (speaking for my own projects at least), and they ask respectfully, I am pretty forthright behind a change's intended purpose. But I also miss things, as mentioned before, sometimes I see a post while I'm busy at work and intended to respond, but 14 hours later I have forgotten to come back and do it, but I try my best! That being said, too often unfortunately, after we've stated the design reason, many responses to it devolve into loud/disrespectful variants of "That reasons sucks! I hate it!" instead of more helpful things like "That reason has some major drawbacks. What if we addressed that reason with another approach like this?". The deeper a feedback thread devolves into an unproductive hate slinging contest (honestly, both sides are often at fault), the less likely we are to spend our very limited time reading responses in it and responding to them ourselves since there are, relative to the volume, less worthwhile responses worth looking for. This is why the GMs will often prune anything deemed non-constructive in those threads because those posts actively damage the potential for that thread to be useful to us. 2# - Get involved in testing earlier, not later There is a Discord server dedicated entirely to testing and discussing upcoming/perspective changes, I won't link it here since it's been linked in plenty of other places on the forums plenty of times, and if anybody asks, somebody will be able to provide a link. It's open-invite and participation is entirely voluntary. If you have a vested interest in the future of Homecoming's development this would be the best way to get involved and have your voice be heard during the earlier stages of the development process where broad direction can be challenged more easily. To dispel a common rumor: This has nothing to do with 'insider tester' circles that some players seem to pretend exist and everything to do with the fact Discord is just a better communication system than the forums for active in-the-moment brainstorming discussions about future ideas, details, and implementation. Forums have their own uses and we utilize them heavily later in the development process where they are most valuable for finding, fixing, and tracking bugs/issues, but at those later stages of development, massive changes are far less likely to be possible short-term. The only reason that the testing Discord is not more widely promoted is because of how many players previously joined only to get sneak peaks, saw extremely in-flux or experimental changes or discussions, and then complain/spread misinformation based on alpha-level builds of unconfirmed features that could change dramatically or even might not happen at all depending on how things go with this game's messy code. Both Discord and the forums are very different communication mediums and we leverage both extensively depending on whichever is more effective for the aspects our work at various stages. For example this post you're reading right now will endure and can be referenced easily in the future vs. a Discord message that would certainly be lost. There are always pros and cons to every tool at our disposal.If you absolutely refuse to use Discord than you are voluntarily putting yourself at a disadvantage in influencing Homecoming's future development direction, but you absolutely cannot say that's any kind of exclusion on Homecoming's part, as Discord is free to download on basically every smart device and the testing Discord is open-invite for anyone with an interest in joining it. 3# - Back feedback with testing & specific examples It is extremely obvious to us as developers when a player provides feedback who obviously did zero in-game testing. We literally created the subject matter of your feedback, there's no possible way to fool us into believing that you thoroughly tested our work when your feedback lacks the tiny details that would 100% be there if you had tested it in-game. Obviously this is sometimes more or less applicable depending on the nature of the change itself, but when I see a good feedback post and it includes specific examples backed by testing evidence it's always feedback I seriously review and consider. 2 hours ago, Neiska said: As usual, the debate became passionate and heated on both sides. But the only comment from any staff member on the topic, was a mocking comment in the discord. Suffice to say, I took that a bit personal. This kind of behavior is not something Homecoming would ever officially condone and if somebody on our staff was disrespectful towards you, I would strongly urge you to bring it up with a Lead Game Master here on the forums or Discord via a direct message and include the details so we can look into addressing it. 1 12 2 Love this game and its community? Want to give back? Volunteer as a Game Master! Help make Homecoming the best it can be! Writer of the Patch Notes Red side, best side! 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Alchemystic Posted October 26, 2022 Share Posted October 26, 2022 On 10/25/2022 at 7:20 AM, Redletter said: They realized that We knew that They weren't listening to Us anyhow, so They dropped the pretense and stopped asking Us for feedback... Duh, I don't mean to brag or anything but, several suggestions I've put forward have been introduced to the game in some form, some of which were part of the weekly discussions. 9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sanguinesun Posted October 26, 2022 Share Posted October 26, 2022 (edited) 3 hours ago, Cobalt Arachne said: Not going to overly weigh in on the weekly discussions, since the devs weren't the ones who were responsible for those, but will say something worth mentioning I think in the context of all Homecoming volunteers. The thing that players should keep in mind (that is specifically applicable to Homecoming) is that we are all unpaid volunteers doing this out of passion for the game, sacrificing our free time and energy to contribute in a sort of 'volunteer budget' that we donate to this game from our personal lives for no compensation, that obviously has to come with an inherent threshold of what we can realistically sacrifice before it begins to negatively impact our personal lives, which we cannot allow as this is an unpaid venture that none of us can afford to prioritize in that way. If we exceed our 'volunteer budget' and the game begins to take more away than it gives, then in that scenario there are basically only two options available: We have to adjust how we're managing our volunteer efforts so that the game isn't negatively impacting our personal lives. In the worst case scenario, step away from working on the game entirely because it's not worth sacrificing our personal lives for. When dealing with extremely hostile feedback/player interactions, that very rapidly diminishes the 'volunteer budget' we have available, and between options #1 and #2, we're more likely to go with option #1 which is to just not interact with those players as much, because all of us love this game and we don't want to stop working on it. Despite Homecoming's extraneous efforts to ensure we run the game at nearly-professional levels and quality standards, everyone should keep in mind we are NOT a professionally paid development team, and having to endure feedback laced with beratement and malice makes many of us stop reading almost immediately. If anyone feels like they aren't being heard or aren't being listened to, I would ask you reflect on the manner by which you are communicating your feedback to us. I can confidently say that everyone on our development team is very flexible and extremely accommodating to players who are being respectful and provide feedback out of genuine concern for the game's health and we've made many changes based on those kinds of concerns, sometimes even bending over backwards with extreme efforts and redoing huge amounts of work just to accommodate their desires simply because they communicated to us in a respectful manner."Change Z is total crap and so is whoever thought that change should've been a thing. If you're trying to kill the game, you're doing a great job." Something like this is going to be almost immediately ignored by all of us reading through feedback. Not to imply that this player's concern and dissatisfaction is any less valid, but it's unpleasant and draining to deal with this kind of hostile interaction, which hurts that aforementioned 'volunteer budget'. How many volunteer workers are going to continue volunteering if the people they're working for spit in their faces? Before anybody replies with "Then just don't make bad changes." I'll insist you realize we don't ever make ANY changes with an intended goal to make the game WORSE, if a change we made has negative repercussions, you should express it to us like this:"Change Z has me concerned because it actually undermines Elements A, B, and C in the game, and that kind of marginalizes the players who really enjoyed those elements, what was the development goal behind Change Z? Can we explore alternative solutions that don't marginalize Elements ABC? What about trying my idea Change Y instead?" This is the kind of feedback from players we're super happy to accommodate, discuss, and explain why we did what we did and seek alternate solutions for if our first idea isn't hitting the right beats. Occasionally feedback is missed simply due to it being posted somewhere that we don't check often, but more frequently it gets discarded because the feedback itself is written in a hostile/rude/malicious tone and as unpaid volunteers working for free, we're not obligated to have extended interactions with anybody who's being unnecessarily disrespectful. We're not trying to ruin the game, but if you treat us like we are, that immediately compromises any kind of opportunity for meaningful discussion. You don't have to agree with our positions on changes, in-fact we welcome people challenging our changes, as it helps us refine, improve, and iterate, but that comes with a baseline expectation of it being a respectful interaction if you're hoping for your feedback to be heard and concerns addressed. First off, thank you for your post helping to give further insight into the state of the dev team, reps etc's collective mindset since you're seeming to speak for all of them. As well thank you for validating that there are issues between devs and players that exist that players have been expressing in various forms for a long time now. With that said then, it becomes hard to claim near/close to professional standards and then make statements that show blanket dismissal of criticisms/feedback that very well may have valid points being given just simply due to someone saying "x is bad and killing the game" at the same time as said valid criticisms/feedback. Plenty of volunteer groups can maintain professionalism btw. Being volunteer doesn't validate a diminishment of professional conduct unless the group chooses to not maintain such professionalism. So, the fact that you state your team chooses to make that distinction is a shame. Arguably that's helped groom the state of things now that have prompted your post to a certain extent: a growing distrust and animosity between players and devs due to the disjunction between both and with decisions made. Again, you've essentially admitted to as much with your post that, -Yes- there is a wall. Everyone has known this on both sides of the fence for a long while now. But understand that construction started with your team's decisions and has been growing and thickening in a vicious circle of reaction from both sides. I'd say your whole post reflects that and relations between both sides will continue to grow worse as long as this mindset continues. A dev in a different game once said (and I'm paraphrasing), that they well understood that people passionate about a game are the ones who speak up about it, be it angrily or otherwise. To listen to one group's criticism yet to dismiss another because one group's are presented positively and the other's are negative means you're extinguishing some of that passion for the game. It then contradicts your goals for helping to "refine, improve, iterate" the game when you narrow down and filter only what you're willing to read and listen to. So when your calling upon then specifically and only for players to break that vicious circle in part with this point on criticism/feedback by holding hostage transparency and community interaction punitively, that's just reinforcing the wall and strengthening the vicious cycle of conflict. That's how epistemic bubble development starts to become a thing with a team. And so, given your post, it seems compelling (and as evidenced over the years as it grows) that this situation -will- worsen. That's a shame. Regarding too how you say devs respond to criticisms/feedback at the end of your post is also not quite that either... as Neiska additionally and anecdotally pointed out from their experiences. Looking back over the threads in the beta forum section regarding feedback given (and Im not going to discuss the whole philotic to saying _NOPE_ and quitting either), can people find evidence there where folks attempted to give what you consider positively framed criticisms/feedback that wasn't addressed, explained, discussed or are the citable examples where responses (or more aptly lack of them) to the contrary? Next, regarding your statement of "I'll insist you realize we don't ever make ANY changes with an intended goal to make the game WORSE". That's a loaded if not partially disingenuous statement. 3 years of forums discussions where the definition of "WORSE" depends on which side of the fence (and multiple fences too both on your dev team and with players) that perspective is coming from would seemingly throw that into question. So I think you can't make that claim with such confidence(well you are but I'm saying you shouldn't), because changes the team enacts, knowing full well it -does- intentionally diminishes play that other players have enjoyed/experienced for years, -is- from those players' perspectives worse. What you're actually claiming is that its not worse for -your- team's "vision" for the game and the way -the team- intends for it to be played. Arguably the protracted and entrenched, inch by inch war with and intent to diminish the effectivity of AE farming to the point of discouraging it would be a pretty good example. Notice that if I'd said it was being slowly removed, it would be easily misdirected away by saying "we're not removing it".... All that also loops back into(if not exemplifies) what I was saying concerning epistemic bubble development too. All in all, unfortunately like Neiska, I think the chance of mindset changes of the team and what's to meaningfully improve are unlikely except in a worsening divisional direction. That wall is just going to continue to grow. Again, that's a shame. Edited October 26, 2022 by Sanguinesun 4 11 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeregrineFalcon Posted October 26, 2022 Share Posted October 26, 2022 @Cobalt Arachne First of all, thank you very much for posting. Not just that you posted, but for what you posted and the great detail of information that you posted. I am not condoning uncivil behavior. However, I do believe that the last 20 years of posting on video game forums has conditioned people to be rude because we've been trained that that's what works. I've seen it many times on many forums for many games. Calm posts with precise mathematical models showing why the changes won't work get ignored. But after the changes go live, and the mods spend a week fighting a losing battle against the fires threatening to burn down the entire forums, the devs announce that they'll roll back, or lessen, the changes. None of this is your fault, nor the fault of the Homecoming team, of course. However, this is exactly why I think that a dev blog, or road map, or some kind of post regarding the devs' point of view on the game, on changes, on where they want to go with things, and on eventual goals would be very helpful for at least lessening the amount of forum flamage and vitriol. You mentioned that some feedback gets ignored because it doesn't challenge the specific reason behind the change. Ok, but many times we don't know the specific reason behind the change. If you want us to respond to the specific reason behind the change then that information is going to have to be spelled out in the OP of the feedback thread, it usually isn't. Anyway, I hope you don't think that I'm attacking you with this post. Nor am I angry in anyway. This is just my attempt at constructive feedback. If you've read my post to this point, thank you again. 3 4 Being constantly offended doesn't mean you're right, it means you're too narcissistic to tolerate opinions different than your own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Developer Cobalt Arachne Posted October 26, 2022 Developer Share Posted October 26, 2022 7 hours ago, Sanguinesun said: With that said then, it becomes hard to claim near/close to professional standards and then make statements that show blanket dismissal of criticisms/feedback that very well may have valid points being given just simply due to someone saying "x is bad and killing the game" at the same time as said valid criticisms/feedback. Plenty of volunteer groups can maintain professionalism btw. Being volunteer doesn't validate a diminishment of professional conduct unless the group chooses to not maintain such professionalism. So, they fact that your team chooses to make that distinction is a shame. The point is being missed here somewhat... My point was that volunteer work is often a thankless task sometimes, and players often choose to forget that we're doing game development, which is a complex multi-billion dollar industry, for free entirely out of passion because we love City of Heroes. I didn't say what I did as any kind of 'hostage' situation or 'make me happy or else', and if that's what you're reading you are entirely misinterpreting my point and misunderstand me fundamentally as game developer. I get my satisfaction and reward from doing high-quality work and seeing players enjoy the work I've done for them. If I woke up one day and found that working on the game invited more negativity into my life than positivity, I would just quit, because the only compensation I get for the thousands of hours I've spent adding new features over the years is the joy and positivity it brings into my life. 7 hours ago, Sanguinesun said: very well may have valid points being given just simply due to someone saying "x is bad and killing the game" at the same time as said valid criticisms/feedback. As I said in my post, it does not invalidate the player's concern or dissatisfaction, but reading "x is bad and killing the game" gives me absolutely nothing to work with as a developer. Why is X bad? How are we supposed to fix X if you don't tell us why you don't like it. How is X killing the game? Again, the implication here are X is doing a lot of damage, but nothing about how or why. X was meant to solve Y, what would you do solve Y instead? We felt Y was a big enough concern that we spent time making X to fix it, so simply doing nothing instead is not a valid solution. So actually, no, it's not as valid as criticisms/feedback at all, because there's absolutely nothing there that helps us improve the game. Even if they include more later in their post, us expecting feedback to maintain a degree of civility is just a courtesy between people who love City of Heroes, acting like it's unreasonable for us to expect people to be respectful is absurd. 7 hours ago, Sanguinesun said: A dev in a different game once said (and I'm paraphrasing), that they well understood that people passionate about a game are the ones who speak up about it, be it angrily or otherwise. To listen to one group's criticism yet to dismiss another because one group's are presented positively and the other's are negative means you're extinguishing some of that passion for the game. It then contradicts your goals for helping to "refine, improve, iterate" the game when you narrow down and filter only what you're willing to read and listen to. Being a passionate players has nothing to do with how good they are at providing feedback or whether it is useful to us or not. "NEW THING AWESOME! I LOVE CITY OF HEROES, HOMECOMING IS THE BEST EVER!"-is just as useless as feedback to us as-"NEW THING BAD! HOMECOMING SUCKS! EVERYTHING THEY DO RUINS CITY OF HEROES!" We've asked the GMs moderating feedback threads to remove both types of these responses. 7 hours ago, Sanguinesun said: Next, regarding your statement of "I'll insist you realize we don't ever make ANY changes with an intended goal to make the game WORSE". That's a loaded if not partially disingenuous statement. No, it's really not. We have never made a change for no other reason than to make the game worse. Ever. Some changes some player types may dislike, sure, not every change is going to make the game better for every single player unilaterally, that's not possible in any MMO. What I can state with confidence is that every change is aimed in making the overall game better as a whole, we don't nerf things because we like people being angry at us (despite memes), and our players being upset is very draining and disheartening for us, we don't ever take pleasure in it. 7 hours ago, Sanguinesun said: All in all, unfortunately like Neiska, I think the chance of mindset changes of the team and what's to meaningfully improve are unlikely except in a worsening divisional direction. That wall is just going to continue to grow. Entirely depends on the defininition of "meaningfully improved". Something I saw during the Page 4 discussions, was one poster continually asking:"Okay so if everyone agreed that we should keep farming as the undisputed best way to get everything in the game, how much better than every other type of content in this game should it be? Should farmers get x2 better rewards than players who don't like farming? x10 better? x1000 times better? What's fair to everyone?" While I was reading thread at least, nobody ever give that question a real response, which is too bad because I was curious what people's answers would be."What's fair to everyone?" "Meaningful improvement" to us is a City of Heroes that's both fair and accessible to all types of players, no matter what kind of content you like. If making the game more fair to everyone is causing a divide with players who want it to be unbalanced and unfair, than that's unfortunate, because we aren't aiming to cater to that. 7 hours ago, Sanguinesun said: What you're actually claiming is that its not worse for -your- team's "vision" for the game and the way -the team- intends for it to be played. Arguably the protracted and entrenched, inch by inch war with and intent to diminish the effectivity of AE farming to the point of discouraging it would be a pretty good example. Notice that if I'd said it was being slowly removed, it would be easily misdirected away by saying "we're not removing it".... Answer me honestly here: Is AE farming still not the uncontested king of all rewards numerically? Is AE farming's access to absolutely massive amounts of influence still not a gateway to obtain literally everything else of functional value in this game via the AH? Is AE farming still not extremely accessible, with the only type of farming that's been majorly marginalized being AFK farming? (A type of farming we don't support) If we really wanted to nip AE farming in the butt without fail, we would've just returned it to AE tickets only (like every other CoH server out there as far as I know, and how the retail servers worked for most of its time online) and then washed our hands of the matter. Instead we've painstakingly spent enormous amounts of time with system revamps and reward adjustments to try and find a better balance, where we can keep AE useful and a valid option without it being problematic by so thoroughly eclipsing the rest of the game and making everyone who doesn't like farming feeling compelled to do so because it's easy to do and far more rewarding than everything else they could spend their time on.Our reward balance efforts recently were curated around ensuring we could keep the current incarnation of AE farming in the game for those who like it the way it is without reverting to AE tickets only. That does mean that farmers have to give up some ground so we could find a better balance between the game's content types. The most profitable content type in the game still being the most profitable content type in the game just by slightly smaller margins is a compromise farmers will have to accept, because it's unfair how much damage it was doing to everyone else who didn't like farming feeling heavily pressured to do so because of how much more rewarding it was for their time/effort spent. Imagine if we made PvP the uncontested best way to get everything in the game, how many farmers feel ill at the prospect of being forced to PvP or feeling like their time spent in the game was completely wasted relatively if they weren't PvPing?It's all about ensuring everyone can do what they enjoy doing without them feeling like they're not getting fair rewards for it. 3 19 1 Love this game and its community? Want to give back? Volunteer as a Game Master! Help make Homecoming the best it can be! Writer of the Patch Notes Red side, best side! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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