Officially Unofficial Weekly Discussion #5: I have/want the Power!!! (Powerset Proliferation)

[SeraphimKensai]

Well first off Happy Thanksgiving to the Americans, and happy belated Thanksgiving to the Canadians. World Cup woo hoo 🤣.

 

Week 5 brings us to focus the discussion on Powerset Proliferation and how it may affect AT identity.

 

• Do you feel that powerset proliferation impacts your AT's identity? Why do you feel that way?
• Are there any sets that you want proliferated? If so why?
• Are there any sets that you don't want to see proliferated? If so why?
•  What kind of priority for changes would powerset proliferation merit in your perspective?

[Greycat]

1. Impacting identity - no. Honestly I feel some of the Incarnate abilities have more of an impact/homogenization in this regard than any sort of powerset proliferation. 

2. Since Sentinels now have stone armor, I'm not really waiting for anything to be proliferated. I have remade Rock Yew (Archery/Stone armor) and am satisfied with it. :) Any other powersets I can think of would take more work than just "proliferation" (dual pistol assault dom, we'd need some sort of melee, etc.) so I don't really count them here.

[lemming]

1 hour ago, SeraphimKensai said:

Well first off Happy Thanksgiving to the Americans, and happy belated Thanksgiving to the Canadians. World Cup woo hoo 🤣.

 

Week 5 brings us to focus the discussion on Powerset Proliferation and how it may affect AT identity.

• Do you feel that powerset proliferation impacts your AT's identity? Why do you feel that way?
• Are there any sets that you want proliferated? If so why?
• Are there any sets that you don't want to see proliferated? If so why?
•  What kind of priority for changes would powerset proliferation merit in your perspective?

1) Not particularly, though some sets need more work before being put into an AT.

2 - 4)  I'd like to a couple sets fixed first.  Regen needs a bit of work before it should get tossed over to Tanks.    Brutes probably need a bit of work, but that's a different subject.   I'm starting to get in Snarky's camp on that area.

 

I think I need to go do a recheck on what isn't proliferated yet.   (Hmm, off the top of my head: Axe for Stalkers, Regen & EA for Tanks?)

 

Ah right, bunch into Dominators. 

Edited November 22, 2022 by lemming
Oh yea!

[Troo]

Week 5, well done!

• Are there any sets that you want proliferated? If so why? Yes please. Regen for tankers... reasons

 

• Do you feel that powerset proliferation impacts your AT's identity? Sometimes, because it pushes heavy handed revamps to existing sets and those don't always work out so well or significantly change a set. Just make new sets. (it's okay to adjust trooly broken sets, but even that can be subjective)

Edited November 22, 2022 by Troo

[Spaghetti Betty]

On 11/22/2022 at 10:14 AM, SeraphimKensai said:

Do you feel that powerset proliferation impacts your AT's identity? Why do you feel that way?

I feel that it does. There was a time when Blasters had blasty blast sets and Defenders had controlly blast sets. Now, I'm not saying the idea of Powerset Proliferation hurt AT identity as much as the copy/paste nature of a lot of the proliferation over the years did. I could give Illusion Control as an example of almost perfect proliferation in my eyes (number balancing withstanding). The set wasn't just ported to Dominators as is. It was given something to make it unique from the Controller version. In my perfect world, all proliferation was done like that, where playing the same set was still wildly different across different ATs. Yes, that's asking a lot. I know.

 

I also agree with Greycat that this kind of homogenization greatly pales in comparison to what Incarnates have done, but that horse is debt-capped at this point.

 

On 11/22/2022 at 10:14 AM, SeraphimKensai said:

Are there any sets that you want proliferated? If so why?

 

Regen for Tanks. More sets adapted into Assault sets for Doms. What's left?

 

On 11/22/2022 at 10:14 AM, SeraphimKensai said:

Are there any sets that you don't want to see proliferated? If so why?

 

I don't not want to see more proliferation happen. I just want a bit of uniqueness to be retained across ATs that isn't base modifiers and an inherent.

 

On 11/22/2022 at 10:14 AM, SeraphimKensai said:

 What kind of priority for changes would powerset proliferation merit in your perspective?

 

A bunch of retroactive stuff that would require too much time and stepping of toes.

Edited November 23, 2022 by Spaghetti Betty

[MistressOhm]

Since I look at powersets as "variations on a theme" rather than specific to an archetype, I don't see a problem with it. 

 

Seismic Blast is a -little- weird, in that it's less thrown rocks and more geologic telekinesis than anything, feels very controller-y even as a blast set.  But that's more on how the powerset was visualized, the fact that someone can use it at a distance to do "Rocks Fall, Everyone Dies" is perfectly within the milieu.   

 

Regen for Tanks - why not?  It works as a concept, so I think it's just a matter of balancing at this point. 

 

New sets would be fun, too.  I've been thinking about those Circle of Thorns pets with the tongue whips... why not an Elongated Man or Dhalsim "beat people up at a distance" set?  It could be a control set (coiling around to immobilize, hold, or just trip people up) as well as a melee set a la Ms Marvel's Embiggened fists.

[DougGraves]

Dominators need more sets

 

I want dominators with dual pistols, archer, dual blades, and more.

 

Dominators get stuck with mixed melee and ranged sets which means they don't get the fun ranged sets and fun melee sets.

[twozerofoxtrot]

14 hours ago, SeraphimKensai said:

Are there any sets that you want proliferated? If so why?

 

Super Strength for Scrappers, Stalkers, and Blasters (as a secondary set with appropriate tweaks). Frankly, it's way overdue.

 

Regeneration for Tankers. Seems popular; for good reason. 

 

Energy Aura for Tankers. Let's not kid ourselves with how overpowered it might be. What's underpowered on Tankers? Due on theme alone.

[Biff Pow]

I'd like to see new Epic Pools for all ATs, covering more themes. Most have Fire and Ice sets, but how about Storm powers, or Kinetics? Maybe a set using the new Symphony powers. Or a mini-Mastermind set (like a Sidekick.)

 

The good thing about the Epic Pools is you can only choose one, so they're easier to balance, and they can add some flavour to make your character feel more unique.

[Zepp]

Lets take a look:
Armor sets: Brute lacks Ninjitsu. Scrapper has all power set choices. Sentinel lacks Shield. Stalker has all power sets. Tank lacks Energy Aura, Ninjitsu, and Regeneration.
- Regeneration definitely needs to be ported to Tank.

- Shield should probably be ported to Sentinel.
- Ninjitsu should probably be ported to Brute.

- Energy Aura should probably be ported to Tank.
- I am 50/50 about porting Ninjitsu to Tank

Assault sets: Dominator only

- Nothing to port

Blast sets: all sets are already available on Blaster, Corruptor, Defender, & Sentinel
- Nothing to port
Control sets: all sets are already available on Controller and Dominator
- Nothing to port

Manipulation sets: Blaster only

- Nothing to port

Melee sets: Scrapper lacks Super Strength. Stalker lacks Battle Axe, Super Strength, Titan Weapons, and War Mace (they have Ninja Blade as their unique version of Katana).
- Definitely port Super Strength to both Scrapper and Stalker
- Battle Axe and War Mace should probably be ported to Stalker as they already have Staff Fighting.
- Titan Weapons I am 50/50 on porting as Rend Armor could easily be converted to the Assassin's Strike attack, and it would be hilarious to think about TW stalkers...
Summon sets: Mastermind only

- Nothing to port

Support sets: all sets are already available on Controller, Corruptor, Defender, and Mastermind (I am treating Darkness Affinity and Dark Miasma as equivalent)

- Nothing to port

 

I don't think restricting sets from other ATs is a good way to define existing ATs.

Since proliferation is a relatively low investment for a high impact, I would definitely say the green sets should be ported ASAP whereas the yellow and orange sets can be on a whenyougetaroundtoitish schedule.

Edit: Portable Sets (in order of Priority) - There are currently ten sets which could be directly ported
Super Strength to Stalker
Super Strength to Scrapper
Regeneration to Tank
Shield to Sentinel
Ninjitsu to Brute
Energy Aura to Tank
Battle Axe to Stalker
War Mace to Stalker
Titan Weapon to Stalker
Ninjitsu to Tank

Edited November 23, 2022 by Zepp

[Eldyem]

18 hours ago, SeraphimKensai said:

• Do you feel that powerset proliferation impacts your AT's identity? Why do you feel that way?

This might not necessarily be addressing the question as asked, but I think it gets impacted a little when a particular AT gets a "better" version of a formerly AT-exclusive powerset. Scrapper Ninjutsu just feels stronger than Stalker's version (to me), and Mastermind's Poison has the decent, but ultimately sort of unfortunate Noxious Gas that pales in comparison to how good Venomous Gas is. The source getting the worse version of a powerset does feel like it negatively impacts AT identity in a bad way.

[Zepp]

Special Ports:
It would be nice to see something akin to Poison, Radiation Emission, and Storm Summoning be ported to Manipulation sets.
It would be nice to see a Dual Blades / Dual Pistols Assault set
It would be nice to see a Katana / Archery Asssault set
It would be nice to see a Super Strength type Assault set
It would be nice to see a Beam Rifle / War Mace Assault set (similar to Arachnos Soldier maybe a little too much...)

I heard that there was data for Wind Control blowing on the breeze...

Really Special Ports:
It would be nice to see something done with the Beast Mastery / Savage Assault ranged set
Kinda missing Sonic Melee
Water Melee anyone?
Poison or Temporal Melee using some of the Poison and/or Temporal Manipulation powers?

Okay, I may have gone a tad off topic, sorry.

[UltraAlt]

21 hours ago, SeraphimKensai said:

Do you feel that powerset proliferation impacts your AT's identity? Why do you feel that way?

 

I'm not sure what you mean by "your archetype".  I'm an alt-jumper. I have over 100 Alts. I play all archetypes except for warshade and the VEATs. 

I started playing about a week before Issue 2 dropped. So I have played the game so long, that I have seen powerset proliferation even before the Sunset.

 

I think every powerset proliferation opens a new doorway ... a new pathway to play in THE CITY a different way.

 

Why do I feel that way? Because I like game replayability. If I'm getting bored, I make another alt, or switch to another already existing Alt. I like to create and explore.

Power proliferation gives me more experiences to explore.

 

22 hours ago, SeraphimKensai said:

Are there any sets that you want proliferated? If so why?

 

Yes. All of them.

I think I already answered that. 

 

I think that maybe I should add this. 

I think it is much easier to customize powers than it is to proliferate. I may be wrong as many of the SFX can be ported, and moving the powers to another set is more about game balance. Maybe I shouldn't bring up power customization in this set, but, on some levels, power customization can almost duplicate what power proliferation does as both are really simply adding more customizing of the superpowers available to explore/combat THE CITY with.

 

I think it is unlikely to see power proliferation of the Epic Archetypes or the Villain Epic Archetypes.

 

I see it unlikely that we will see power proliferation in primary Mastermind power sets, but I do see power customizations that could fairly easily be implemented for each of the existing primary Mastermind power Sets.

 

22 hours ago, SeraphimKensai said:

Are there any sets that you don't want to see proliferated? If so why?

 

I don't see a need to proliferate power sets for the EATs or VEATs.

 

I feel it would be difficult to create a new primary set for Masterminds.

If we are only talking about proliferating is taking the components of a set that are not another archetype (porting all of the primary melee power sets to secondary blaster sets) versus creating new powers, then I'm good with any proliferation that the DEVs are motivated to work on.

 

22 hours ago, SeraphimKensai said:

 What kind of priority for changes would powerset proliferation merit in your perspective?

 

The DEVs are volunteers, and I appreciate what the do.

We offer a lot ... a huge amount ... of ideas to the ideas and concepts that they already have.

I don't want to put any pressure on the DEVs to work on anything that they aren't interested in working on at the time.

 

I'm good with the DEVs shelving things that they get bored with and moving on with projects that interest them.

I don't think that they should feel any pressure that they must do anything for the community other than enjoy the game like the rest of us and be creative as much as they want to be with the game.

 

I'm very please with what the Homecoming staff has done.

I quit subscribing to City of Heroes almost exactly a year before the Sunset because I didn't like the direction that the game has going in.

Homecoming has resolved almost all of the issues that I had with the game that made me quit paying for a subscription, remove the bios from all my characters, switch all 100+ character into Praetorian Robot costumes, march them out to under the Statue of Atlas (or the equivalent on the villain and Praetorian side), self-destruct them, and delete each character.

Yeah. I really did not like the direction the game was going at the time.

 

I'm very please with what Homecoming DEVs have done with THE CITY, and I'm glad that a friend of mine pushed me into downloading Homecoming. 

I think the DEVs should enjoy the game like the rest of us and be creative in the game in a way that is fun for them.

I can give them my ideas, but I'm fully satisfied with them doing what they want to do with their time.

[Uun]

Other than the melee/armor sets discussed above, there are a few APP sets that could be proliferated from Scrapper/Stalker to Brute/Tank and vice versa.

[SeraphimKensai]

A lot of my thoughts have been echoed by others like regen/energy armor/ninjitsu getting over to tanks.

 

I do like how illusion was ported over to dominators making it more of its own, just like dark affinity as opposed to dark miasma.

 

I think though the biggest need for powerset proliferation merits discussion about epic powersets ancillary/patron. Some archetypes have access up to 10 epic power pool sets to choose from (Sentinel) whole others have access to none (Kheldians). VEATS get access to patron powersets. It seems that most ATs have access to 4 ancillary powersets and the 4 patron sets for a total of 8 possible sets to choose from.

 

I don't see how offering choices for each AT for ancillary/patron powersets would be an issue as the actual powers can be balanced for each AT based on their scalars. It would allow for greater build diversity, increased replayability, and better role playing options for those that role play.

 

It would be great to see each AT have access to at least 4 ancillary sets and 4 patron sets to choose from. Nothing forces them to choose from any epic set and they can play without them.

[Techwright]

23 hours ago, SeraphimKensai said:

• Do you feel that powerset proliferation impacts your AT's identity? Why do you feel that way?  Not really, not any of my current characters.  I would wonder at any stalker who might exhibit power auras that should show their position, but that's more in the RP realm of things.
• Are there any sets that you want proliferated? If so why?  Perhaps illusion control for masterminds.  The powersets ability to stun and overwhelm might be useful in giving weaker minions a chance to finish off an opponent, while increasing their survival chance.  That, and having an overwhelming number of characters on the field, some of which can look like you is just boss level stuff.
• Are there any sets that you don't want to see proliferated? If so why?   Nothing comes to mind except perhaps Demon Summoning, but I can't see how that would work in any other AT.  Perhaps I just lack imagination.  I just don't like those big clodhoppers stomping around in close-quarters caves and making truly annoying sounds.  At least the latter can be muted (or humorously changed to kitty sounds).
•  What kind of priority for changes would powerset proliferation merit in your perspective?  First, that the powerset be stable and strong in its current format(s).  There's no sense proliferating an under-performing powerset.  Second, that the AT actually feel like it has a hole in it without the powerset.

 

[TheZag]

Less of a proliferation,  i wouldnt mind if some of the powerset incompatibility were removed.  Like you cant have claws with stone armor.  I thought it was because claws had a jumping animation attack and granite armor cant jump but you can have spines and use ripper with granite.  Shield has a few incompatibilities as well.  I get dual blades not being compatible with every shield but some are pretty small and out of the way and a character strong enough to swing titan weapons can do it with a shield strapped to their arm.

 

[BurtHutt]

I don't know how much work it is to proliferate the powers - if it is a lot then I am ok if they aren't proliferated. I also feel it would allow that AT to be a bit unique.

 

I'd rather see time and effort spent on new powers and other additions to the game. I like the efforts made to create new powers and add some somewhat original twists to them. 

[Yaliw]

Energy Aura and Regeneration for Tankers. Titan Weapon for Stalkers!

What else is left to proliferate other than making more assault sets for dominators?

 

We desperately need more epic pools so do those count as proliferation?

 

I'd like to see Mastermind Poison Noxious Gas changed to not be hot garbage with a long cooldown and would prefer Venomous Gas but I understand that's a personal preference and some people like playing literal trash and we have to protect their feelings.

[SeraphimKensai]

1 hour ago, Yaliw said:

 Titan Weapon for Stalkers!

I can dig it.

[Ukase]

On 11/22/2022 at 10:14 AM, SeraphimKensai said:

• Do you feel that powerset proliferation impacts your AT's identity? Why do you feel that way?
• Are there any sets that you want proliferated? If so why?
• Are there any sets that you don't want to see proliferated? If so why?
•  What kind of priority for changes would powerset proliferation merit in your perspective?

1. Nope
2. Can a tank get MM pets? Huh? You sure? Drat. There was one time I wanted to make a dual blades/shield brute. Couldn't be done, on account the character would have a rough time carrying a blade and a shield in the same hand. But, if the shield had a blade sticking out of it...or the lower portion had a serrated edge...
3. My hope is that those who code will spend more time on new content and less time mucking with powersets and ATs. 

4. See above. New powerset proliferation would be very close to the bottom of things to do, if they were to be done at all if I had my way. But don't worry folks, I'm not in charge and rarely get my way. 

[Premmy]

On 11/22/2022 at 11:14 AM, SeraphimKensai said:

Well first off Happy Thanksgiving to the Americans, and happy belated Thanksgiving to the Canadians. World Cup woo hoo 🤣.

 

Week 5 brings us to focus the discussion on Powerset Proliferation and how it may affect AT identity.

 

• Do you feel that powerset proliferation impacts your AT's identity? Why do you feel that way?
• Are there any sets that you want proliferated? If so why?
• Are there any sets that you don't want to see proliferated? If so why?
•  What kind of priority for changes would powerset proliferation merit in your perspective?

1:  not sure. My only interpretation of this makes it about something I couldn’t possibly care about in the current version of the game. I personally feel like the game has too many archetypes and not enough variation of powersets within those archetypes as it is. But these are the sort of issues to raise way back in 2002/3 alpha versions of the game  and not literally twenty years later. so I really don’t see what AT “identity” would even entail. If a given set doesn’t fit my interpretation of an AT’s playstyle I’d just play a different AT or power set. No reason to keep it from others if it’s all the same. That said, in regards to dev time/effort resources 

2: I want literally every extant primary and secondary  power set to be ported in some meaningful way as Ancillaries/epics to every AT and I want that before any proliferation or new powersets are added  this would effect every character I currently have and every concept I would possibly build. The simple ability to pick a Third “Main” Power concept opens up immense possibilities.
 

The last is more Manipulation and assault sets. I’d like Broadswords/Axe/Warmace(as single sets with weapon customization of all three)  and Claws for blasters and Doms in particular

 

The Single Handed weapon sets have more thematic use for me as general use weapons than the hyper specific ninja blade and Claws feels like good way to fuse the sort of range gauntlet blast concepts into melee. I’d also like most of the throwing knives powers from martial assault as a blast set: Martial Blast or Shurikendo or Flechettery or some such. ALL

of these come third and fourth after Pool, Ancillary, and Origin sets, though.

3: Aside from my previously stated priorities,Nah. I’m interpreting “not want” here to mean “want it to not be proliferated” as opposed to “don’t care either way” of which I have a few, but that’s not a reason for the devs not to do it. 
 

4:As long as the central “gimmick” of the set is maintained and it works reasonably well.

[OmegaOne]

On 11/23/2022 at 3:48 AM, Supertanker said:

I'd like to see new Epic Pools for all ATs, covering more themes. Most have Fire and Ice sets, but how about Storm powers, or Kinetics? Maybe a set using the new Symphony powers. Or a mini-Mastermind set (like a Sidekick.)

 

The good thing about the Epic Pools is you can only choose one, so they're easier to balance, and they can add some flavour to make your character feel more unique.

Agreed. While I think it's great that a lot of Primary and Secondary sets have been proliferated (and would like this trend to continue, along with the addition of brand-new sets), I think there is a lot of room in the area of power pools to help round out a character.

 

Along with expanding the "elemental" themes to different ATs (Fire, Ice, Dark, Stone, Tools/Weapons, Psi, etc.), how about Hero Patron pools, Faction pools (Oroboros for Time-based powers for example), or even oddball pools like "Sidekick" (allows you to summon one pet, and includes some pet buff and utility powers, might be a bit too OP with Controllers and Masterminds).

 

Oh and requisite request to have the Origin pools finished off via Gadgetry and Utility Belt.

[WumpusRat]

On 11/22/2022 at 11:18 PM, Supertanker said:

I'd like to see new Epic Pools for all ATs, covering more themes. Most have Fire and Ice sets, but how about Storm powers, or Kinetics? Maybe a set using the new Symphony powers. Or a mini-Mastermind set (like a Sidekick.)

 

The good thing about the Epic Pools is you can only choose one, so they're easier to balance, and they can add some flavour to make your character feel more unique.

Considering that the "Ninja Tools" epic pool exists,  you could easily create more within that sort of theme.

 

Archery Skills -- give a few ranged attack options, so you could have (say) someone who uses swords pull out a bow to fire off a couple shots at range.

Magic Staff -- allow someone to pull out a staff, ala Scorpion's mage, and use some magical powers through it (though this would be nice as an entire set)

Throwing Knives -- for 'vigilante-types', who have some various thrown blades on them (standard, poisoned, etc)

Apprehend -- non-lethal takedown tools (slapping cuffs on someone, boloing their legs, etc)

Sidearm -- pull out a gun and shoot people, or pistolwhip them with it

[BlackSpectre]

SEISMIC MASTERY FOR BLASTER EPIC POWER POOL PLEASE.

 

I just rolled a seismic blaster and was very disappointed there were no epic powers that had a stone theme. I ended up picking Electricity Mastery, and reduced all the special effects to a low as I could get them... cuz my seismic dude isn't electric,  but yeah, wish there was stone armor, stone shield, another stone attack, a stone hold, stone psionic defense, mud pots, sand storm, stone pet, earthquake, ground smash, stone hibernation, stone machine gun, tunneling teleport, volcano ranged AOE, hot steam thermal AOE perception/defense debuff and minor DOT damage, stone wall, space debris cyclone, or any of a number of cool epic stone powers. There's a lot to choose from.