Focused Feedback: Tank Updates for October 1st, 2019

[MIG]

The reality is, with the proliferation of IOs and incarnate powers, the difference in survivability between a Tanker and Brute is infinitesimal at this point.  Furthermore, with the ease at which a player can switch alignment, there is no advantage to content or rewards.  Lastly, with double-xp bonuses, combined with the expansion of power sets (very few singular sets), a player can level any class with ease, removing the last possible barrier to rerolling into the most effective class.  I say this as a casual player, with a dozen lvl 50s, most IOed.

 

Regarding actual Tanker feedback, the class needs something... it’s not endurance, hit points, or resistance (all of which are borderline meaningless with the aforementioned IOs and incarnates).  For quality of life (1-50) and into veteran levels, “damage“ is the missing component for a tank.  
 

My recommendation is to change the damage back to Brute levels and call it a day.  If you don’t, people who love Tanks will still play Tanks, but the min/maxers will just continue to roll Brutes.  I don’t know why we are so concerned in a mature game about AT identity... homogeneity took over long ago, but it left us with a fun, flexible game.  Because of this forgiving framework, we can also be brutally honest and the Tanks have needed a damage increase since the first purple IOs hit the market.  Add in incarnates and the need for buffing tanks becomes acute.

Edited November 16, 2019 by MIG

[Haijinx]

Tankers don't need the same damage as brutes, but they need more than now.

 

The proposed changes do that.  Brutes will still do more ST, and to those affected by their AOEs will also take more damage

 

Tankers will hit more with their AOEs be better minion stompers and will grab AOE aggro easier. 

 

That's more difference in flavor than a lot of paired ATs get.   

 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 16, 2019 by Haijinx

[MIG]

If the tankers receive more, great, I’m supportive.

 

However, from a casual player’s perspective (not in the know), this patch is languishing in indecision and with each passing week of hesitation it “could” degenerate into a patch that hardly corrects the current gap between brutes and tanks.  
 

If the changes are approved (again, I’m supportive, thank you devs), close the thread and push the changes live.  However, until the patch comes, I don’t assume these “changes” are set, especially when I see heated debates about other ATs in the tanker-specific feedback thread.  
 

Hope springs eternal, until then, keep rolling brutes or simply continue to play tanks in their dysfunctional state.  No barrier to entry in this game to go with the superior option(s). 

[Demon Shell]

1 hour ago, MIG said:

If the tankers receive more, great, I’m supportive.

 

However, from a casual player’s perspective (not in the know), this patch is languishing in indecision and with each passing week of hesitation it “could” degenerate into a patch that hardly corrects the current gap between brutes and tanks.  
 

If the changes are approved (again, I’m supportive, thank you devs), close the thread and push the changes live.  However, until the patch comes, I don’t assume these “changes” are set, especially when I see heated debates about other ATs in the tanker-specific feedback thread.  
 

Hope springs eternal, until then, keep rolling brutes or simply continue to play tanks in their dysfunctional state.  No barrier to entry in this game to go with the superior option(s). 

On 10/31/2019 at 9:37 PM, Captain Powerhouse said:

The way we work not single person holds the keys to the kingdom. Multiple people need to be involved on every patch, at least at the moment. This also means that RL issues can delay things, and honestly, it’s been an on and off eventful month for some of us, me included.

I agree with you on one thing though.

 

Captain, you should probably just close this topic.

[MIG]

change it... don’t change it... equilibrium will be found through choice.

 

Next up...

[Sovera]

It's late in the suggestion thread, and when I mentioned it there was no traction, but I'll bring it back again since the conversation has returned to the homogenization of the classes between Brute and Tank.

 

Now the truth is that it's not Brute VS Tank we should look at but Brute VS Scrapper. The difference between 90% (seldomly achieved outside of a /Radiation or /Electric Armor since how often do we usually team up with a Thermal or a Sonic?) and 75% is minimal IN PRACTICAL TERMS. Yes, spreadsheets show how much more survivable the Brute will be. Spreadsheets are fine, but in practical terms is there really a difference? S/L or Fire my Scrapper can be tossed into a ComicCon and be at agro saturation levels for 5 minutes in a row and survive it just fine. Do we ever reach target saturation outside of special farm maps? Even regular farm maps don't do agro saturation since they tend to be one pack of mobs and we rarely go about agroing one pack and then bounce to the next and wait for the two to meld.

 

So, if, IN PRACTICAL TERMS NON SPREADSHEET, the trio of Scrapper, Brute and Tank are all so similar what separates them? Agro management.

 

- The Scrapper has weak agro grabbing and anyone playing it is not going to aim for REAL tanking. What they might do (as I do) is jump into the spawn first, toss a couple AoEs, make the mobs mad at them for the first few seconds before they all die under the rest of the team's onslaught.

- The Brute is the mid-term. People want to tank, sure, but are not aficionados to the point of wanting to slog under the low damage Tankers currently produce. They may care about grabbing agro, some might get Taunt, but bottom line: a Brute player wants to do damage and tanking is secondary but most of the time it is an actual consideration unlike a Scrapper player.

- The Tanker is that masochist that wants to keep the team safe and soak ALL THE AGRO IN THE WORLD, AAAAAAAAH! They slog through the game with their attacks coming late and doing less damage to a point that one of the first fixes Cap Powerhouse instated was adding an extra 20 points of endurance because that's how slow they are at killing things.

 

So anyone who currently has a Tanker IS that masochist who wants to sponge all the agro already. Surviving? Other than 5% of the game such as some prrrrrretty specific AVS (not all of them. Has Imperious in ITF made anyone tremble lately, even as a +4?) surviving is not a consideration. Heck, most Blasters can facetank MOST AVs.

 

So, do Tankers really need to up their damage? Sort of. A Tanker is not a class someone picks to solo things. It's the class picked for teaming. In a team a Tanker's individual damage is not much of a problem. Yes, in spreadsheet terms in vacuum their lower damage drags a team down by some single digit percentages, but things usually revolve around T9s and Judgements and unless we are timing things with a watch no one is going to notice that the Tanker that was brought slowed things more than if a Brute had been picked. Where this is noticed is in farming where 1-2 minutes of being slower when doing 6 minute runs is an appreciable difference but not really in a 30-40 minute full team TF run.

 

So, damage buff? Yeah, sure, why not? But it's not what the class is about. Those who care about damage and want to play melee are already running Scrappers or Brutes. Those who run Tanks want to be agro sponges.

 

So I re-re-bring my suggestion (without knowing if it is really mechanically feasible): make a TANKER's Taunt become a PbAoE that does an inverted KB. Give it a good radius. Instead of knockback (push away), or knock up (push up), make it an implosion (pull in). All that scattered pack of mobs with some at range, some in melee, are now a clumped ball around the Tanker fit to be AoEd down a la Death Knights in WoW.

 

'Shit, dude, don't knock mobs away...' BOOM! Tanker reels everyone back in.

 

And I mean, does anyone here not think that this would be a lot more mechanically distinct than what we have? Or that it would not make a Tanker worth their weight in gold and make them super attractive to any team?

Edited November 18, 2019 by Sovera

[Vanden]

You're not going to fix an entire AT by changing one power, that players would still have to option to skip.

[General Idiot]

5 hours ago, Vanden said:

You're not going to fix an entire AT by changing one power, that players would still have to option to skip.

This is a valid point, but I would argue that if you make a tank and skip taunt you've kind of missed the point of the AT a little.

[Saiyajinzoningen]

i dunno man, reverse KB on a taunt power (tanks only) sounds pretty damn attractive

[Myrmidon]

19 hours ago, Demon Shell said:

I agree with you on one thing though.

 

Captain, you should probably just close this topic.

And miss out on entertainment you can’t buy? Not a chance.

[Myrmidon]

12 hours ago, Sovera said:

 

So, damage buff? Yeah, sure, why not? But it's not what the class is about. Those who care about damage and want to play melee are already running Scrappers or Brutes. Those who run Tanks want to be agro sponges.

The damage modifier increase, taunt modifier increase, gauntlet change and AoE change should make being an aggro sponge a “set-and-forget” proposition for even the most inexperienced Tanker.

[Doc_Scorpion]

22 hours ago, Demon Shell said:

I agree with you on one thing though.

 

Captain, you should probably just close this topic.

Yeah.  No feedback happening here, just the same people arguing in the same well worn circles.

[Call Me Awesome]

10 hours ago, Saiyajinzoningen said:

i dunno man, reverse KB on a taunt power (tanks only) sounds pretty damn attractive

No pun intended? 😂

 

It sounds like a great mechanic, however I'm not sure how it would work.  A pseudopet would be the obvious but how does it knock them TO the tanker?  As far as I know nothing in the game has an "attraction" mechanic.

[golstat2003]

8 minutes ago, Call Me Awesome said:

No pun intended? 😂

 

It sounds like a great mechanic, however I'm not sure how it would work.  A pseudopet would be the obvious but how does it knock them TO the tanker?  As far as I know nothing in the game has an "attraction" mechanic.

Have the pseudo pet use wormhole towards the tanks position?

[Haijinx]

Why make Tankers more aggro sponguey though? 

 

What is the game environment need?

 

Are squishies dying too often? 

 

 

 

[Rodion]

On 11/17/2019 at 7:31 PM, Sovera said:

So I re-re-bring my suggestion (without knowing if it is really mechanically feasible): make a TANKER's Taunt become a PbAoE that does an inverted KB. Give it a good radius. Instead of knockback (push away), or knock up (push up), make it an implosion (pull in). All that scattered pack of mobs with some at range, some in melee, are now a clumped ball around the Tanker fit to be AoEd down a la Death Knights in WoW.

 

'Shit, dude, don't knock mobs away...' BOOM! Tanker reels everyone back in.

 

And I mean, does anyone here not think that this would be a lot more mechanically distinct than what we have? Or that it would not make a Tanker worth their weight in gold and make them super attractive to any team?

The game effect of Taunt should be to make the mobs rush and punch the tanker in the face. It seems like a magnetic or vortex effect that sucks mobs in should be a separate power on a AT in which a vortex is thematic. Some of the current tanker AoEs could be candidates for adding an attractive force.

 

However, your basic idea is sound. But rather than Taunt picking up the mobs bodily and dragging them in, it should force them to move within melee range under their own power and attempt their melee attack. Or, alternately, have Taunt impose a very severe range penalty on their attacks so that they have to move into melee range to attack. Doesn't Taunt already do that? If so, maybe increasing the penalty would be sufficient.

 

Admittedly, that would take more time than just sucking them in because mobs have to run into melee range, but it's more "realistic" and in keeping with the basic idea of what Taunt is. 

 

Or, if the problem we're trying to solve is preventing other players from knocking mobs away from the tanker, we could consider converting all KB to knockdown on mobs in the immediate vicinity of a tanker, or mobs that have been taunted by a tanker, if that check is more efficient.

[golstat2003]

3 minutes ago, Rodion said:

The game effect of Taunt should be to make the mobs rush and punch the tanker in the face. It seems like a magnetic or vortex effect that sucks mobs in should be a separate power on a AT in which a vortex is thematic. Some of the current tanker AoEs could be candidates for adding an attractive force.

 

However, your basic idea is sound. But rather than Taunt picking up the mobs bodily and dragging them in, it should force them to move within melee range under their own power and attempt their melee attack. Or, alternately, have Taunt impose a very severe range penalty on their attacks so that they have to move into melee range to attack. Doesn't Taunt already do that? If so, maybe increasing the penalty would be sufficient.

 

Admittedly, that would take more time than just sucking them in because mobs have to run into melee range, but it's more "realistic" and in keeping with the basic idea of what Taunt is. 

 

Or, if the problem we're trying to solve is preventing other players from knocking mobs away from the tanker, we could consider converting all KB to knockdown on mobs in the immediate vicinity of a tanker, or mobs that have been taunted by a tanker, if that check is more efficient.

I thought Taunt already had a -range effect baked in. Or is that only in pvp?

[Sura]

8 minutes ago, golstat2003 said:

I thought Taunt already had a -range effect baked in. Or is that only in pvp?

As far as I know Taunt has a -75% range debuff built in, and has for a good long time.  I don't think it's PvP only, I'm pretty sure it's PvE as well.

[golstat2003]

Just now, Sura said:

As far as I know Taunt has a -75% range debuff built in, and has for a good long time.  I don't think it's PvP only, I'm pretty sure it's PvE as well.

Thanks. Good to know I'm not senile yet. 🤣

[Call Me Awesome]

30 minutes ago, golstat2003 said:

Thanks. Good to know I'm not senile yet. 🤣

No, not yet.  Check back tomorrow 😀

 

All joking aside and I'm unfortunately of a vintage to be careful of tossing stones, Taunt definitely has -range in PvE, you can verify this by taunting a target attacking from range and watch them move closer before attacking again.

[Gobbledigook]

How much work would some of these ideas take? It's more than just changing a few numbers. Are they even feasible?

 

If we are throwing random ideas out, maybe give the Tanker a bar that fills when being attacked and when full the Tanker can click a skill that will pulse or just one big PBAoE that will taunt, debuff mitigation and damage mobs.

 

Or allow the Tanker to reflect some damage back onto mobs attacking it in some way.

 

Or just buff the Tanker damage and let players choose to play the Tanker with slightly higher survival or Brute with slightly higher damage just like we have with the Defender/Corruptor. lol

 

Something needs to be done either way.

 

 

Edited November 19, 2019 by Gobbledegook

[Bopper]

2 hours ago, Gobbledegook said:

Something needs to be done either way.

 

Does it, though? I feel like if something isn't broke, dont fix it. I have not felt like tankers are unable to be effective in their role, so introducing major mechanical changes would seem unnecessary. 

 

I agree Tankers and Brutes can be treated as Defenders and Corruptors. Similar, with different flavor.

[siolfir]

14 minutes ago, Bopper said:

I feel like if something isn't broke, dont fix it.

Nonono, you've got it all wrong. The line you're looking for is "if something isn't broke, fix it until it is."

 

Then again, maybe I did too many government contract jobs.

[Gobbledigook]

1 hour ago, Bopper said:

Does it, though? I feel like if something isn't broke, dont fix it. I have not felt like tankers are unable to be effective in their role, so introducing major mechanical changes would seem unnecessary. 

 

I agree Tankers and Brutes can be treated as Defenders and Corruptors. Similar, with different flavor.

No i agree, they don't. Just threw some random ideas out there lol.

 

I am happy with a damage buff, job done.

[Puma]

On 11/14/2019 at 2:32 PM, Gobbledegook said:

Tankers have no trouble in the survival department. They taunt to keep mobs off squishies.

 

A Brute can reach Tanker survival with and without a few external buffs, yet their damage is superior to a Tankers. This is why so few Tankers compared to Brutes are seen, until lately maybe with anticipation of the update. A Brute was the Villain side Tank.

 

If a Brute can reach Tanker survival then why is it so alien for a Tanker to reach near Brute damage? with IO's even squsihy Dps can be fairly tanky now.

 

Balance does involve IOs as they exist in the game and are not a temporary benefit. More thought should have been given maybe when they started adding them.

 

Obvious choice is to nerf the Brute or buff the Tanker. Nerfing has already been rejected.

 

Sentinels and fully IO'd Blasters are Tankmages btw.

 

A Tanker draws the aggro of mobs off others and they need the survival to deal with this. Does that mean they should not do respectable damage? A blaster sure does the damage still, either way. A blasters survival is in killing mobs fast with their superior dps, a dead threat is no threat. IO's and secondary for Blasters is just extra survival. But a blaster does not taunt whole groups of mobs. Blasters will still be awesome dps.

Except changing modifiers or increasing the AoE caps doesn't allow a tank to get near brute damage levels with "a few external buffs"...it makes them near them permanently. 

If the proposal were JUST giving tankers a buff that applied when teaming I'd have no problems.  As is, its basically just making them brutes. Maybe even better than brutes. 

IMO the best answer is what they did with defenders, who faced a similar problem: up their damage and they just outshine blasters.  As is, they were too weak and hard to solo. 
So give them a solo buff and a team buff.  Do the same with tankers.  When solo, tankers get a +dmg buff and perhaps even an AoE radius increase.  When teamed, give them a taunt increase and team +res aura. 

Done.