ITF Run Times

[Lockpick]

Today there was an announcement for a speed ITF.  I joined since it was the WST and I had about 30 minutes, but could max to about 45 minutes.  We get into mission 1 and start defeating all including going up the regular path instead of bypassing it.  I asked if we were still doing a speed run and one guy said there was some non-50s that wanted XP.  I said I understand, but this was advertised as a speed run.  The person doing the advertising said we were making good time.

 

Second mission we cleared all including the ambushes.  After the mission I was about out of time, so told the team I was dropping and thanks for the team.

 

I wasn't upset, but wasn't happy either as I wanted the merits. 

 

I generally think of ITF speed runs as less than 30 minutes, 45 minutes as a mid range run, and 60 to 75 minutes for a defeat all run.  I was thinking I had been the victim of a bait and switch, but then I started thinking that there is really no consensus as to what constitutes these times; it's just in my mind.

 

All that being said, I'm curious what others think about how long a speed ITF should take.  Any thoughts?

[Six-Six]

The only thing that makes an ITF a speedrun for me is a) 2nd mission, you get all the crystals without bothering with the ambushes... so much, b) 3rd mission, head straight for Romy, Riechsman, the control panel and c) head straight for Romy, then towers to kill the needed romans. Usually 20 mins is ample time, even with below 50 toons (no judgement/lore pets) though I've been on faster runs. 30-45 is already a kill-most (with the 2nd and 4th missions taking most of the time); 60-90 min runs would count as a solo or duo run.

Now I personally prefer kill alls or at least kill most runs, but in your case if it was advertised as a speed run, it should've been a speed run regardless of what the team consisted of. IIRC, the faster you complete a mission regardless of kills awards a bigger XP bonus, so the leader's reasoning of the team wanting more XP was out of line.

[Lockpick]

12 minutes ago, Six Six said:

Now I personally prefer kill alls or at least kill most runs, but in your case if it was advertised as a speed run, it should've been a speed run regardless of what the team consisted of. IIRC, the faster you complete a mission regardless of kills awards a bigger XP bonus, so the leader's reasoning of the team wanting more XP was out of line.

 

I am usually fine with a defeat most or all, but today just didn't have the time.  I wasn't aware the XP bonus was higher if the mission is completed faster.  Is that confirmed any where?

[Six-Six]

I don't have the hard numbers or percentages for it, but stealthing to complete missions in the fastest times will result in higher XP reward as opposed to killing everything that moves within a map. So what I do is stealth or try in some way to complete the mission first, then go back to leave no witnesses. that's how I've been running regular missions for a bigger XP gain. I assume it is the same for TFs, and why speed runs became a thing. There is also the notoriety factor (again, no numbers or data), higher diff will require you longer to complete, and easier diff will be faster. Somewhere in the middle is a sweet spot for the optimum XP gain.

 

[Luminara]

31 minutes ago, Lockpick said:

Any thoughts?

 

According to your account, some of the people involved decided to change direction without informing the rest of the team, and brushed off your concerns when you spoke up.  How long it might have taken if it were being run fast, or how long it was going to take as a defeat all, is secondary, as I see it.  The primary issue was, in fact, the lack of communication.  There should've been a discussion, in group chat, so the entire group could weigh in and, if anyone chose, opt out.

 

If it happened to me, I would've taken the time to one-star everyone involved, drop them into my ignore oubliette and keep a hand-written note on the table next to my laptop to remind me to shove them back in that dark hole if I hit my limit on /ignore.  You're a more tolerant person than I am, commendably.

[Saikochoro]

I would not consider a kill all a speed run even if it was accomplished in 30-45 minutes. If the team didn’t kill all it would have been done much faster. It does sound like a false advertising a speed run to me. 
 

I consider a speed run to be as follows:

1. Only fight the mobs around the sybils and recue them skipping all other mobs.

2. Only destroy shadow crystals skipping everything else. 
3. Only fight the generals (including Requiem) and if necessary their immediate mobs. Then fight the Romulus and the computer.  
4. Fly over and fight Romulus and his mob. Then kill the traitors on top of the two buildings and hill to get to the traitor quota. 
 

I have ran 5 speed ITFs this week.   Three of them took 20-21 minutes. Two of them took 17-19 minutes. 

Edited October 24, 2020 by Saikochoro

[Doomguide2005]

Never heard there was an actual bonus for shorter times.

 

Speed runs are more the result of efficiency.  You could take an hour and kill all/most and get one completion bonus or do it in 10 minutes and get 6 completion bonuses. (The fastest ITF time listed in the thread elsewhere in General Discussion is sub 8 minutes)

[Nemu]

15 minutes.

[Lockpick]

20 minutes ago, Luminara said:

 

According to your account, some of the people involved decided to change direction without informing the rest of the team, and brushed off your concerns when you spoke up.  How long it might have taken if it were being run fast, or how long it was going to take as a defeat all, is secondary, as I see it.  The primary issue was, in fact, the lack of communication.  There should've been a discussion, in group chat, so the entire group could weigh in and, if anyone chose, opt out.

 

If it happened to me, I would've taken the time to one-star everyone involved, drop them into my ignore oubliette and keep a hand-written note on the table next to my laptop to remind me to shove them back in that dark hole if I hit my limit on /ignore.  You're a more tolerant person than I am, commendably.

 

Maybe I was a bit irritated, but I didn't want to make a big deal of it.  The community is small as is, so don't want to alienate anyone.  I was actually more worried that my team mates were going to be pissed at me for quitting mid-TF.

 

19 minutes ago, Saikochoro said:

I would not consider a kill all a speed run even if it was accomplished in 30-45 minutes. If the team didn’t kill all it would have been done much faster. It does sound like a false advertising a speed run to me. 
 

I consider a speed run to be as follows:

1. Only fight the mobs around the sybils and recue them skipping all other mobs.

2. Only destroy shadow crystals skipping everything else. 
3. Only fight the generals (including Requiem) and if necessary their immediate mobs. Then fight the Romulus and the computer.  
4. Fly over and fight Romulus and his mob. Then kill the traitors on top of the two buildings and hill to get to the traitor quota. 
 

I have ran 5 speed ITFs this week.   Three of them took 20-21 minutes. Two of them took 17-19 minutes.

 

This is aligned with my expectation of an ITF speed run as well, so was surprised when it turned into a defeat all.

 

[Mr. Vee]

I've never heard of anything remotely like different completion bonuses depending on the amount killed.

 

I'm always amused at the idea of kill most or all being better xp than speed. My crew speeds then immediately moves on to another speed tf. So we're essentially killing tons of AVs and EBs and getting mish complete bonuses instead of sticking around in missions killing trash mobs. Plus the merits are much better if you care about those. If you just want to kill everything because you enjoy it that way, fine, but the idea that it's bad xp if you speed is suspect.

 

As to the OP I'd have probably sped it on my own and tp'd to the computer, assuming i wasn't on a crappy lowbie. But if something's advertised as speed you shouldn't feel bad about leaving if you were on a time crunch an they audibled on you.

[drbuzzard]

Speed ITFs are usually under 15 minutes in my experience. If someone advertised a speed run and changed it after launch, I'd probably bail. I'm not at all a fan of bait and switch. 

[Lunchmoney]

On 10/24/2020 at 5:51 PM, Lockpick said:

about how long a speed ITF should take.

About 12 minutes.

 

[SeraphimKensai]

45 minutes is enough time to.run 3 and maybe even squeak out a 4th ITF.

 

I'm a bit more abrasive than you, if that happened to me I'd kinda tell them to stick it where the sun doesn't shine, say I'm actually going to form a speed ITF in the event there's people on the team that wanted one and quit and reform and actually run a speed ITF or three.

[Dahkness]

Dude i'm sorry that happened to you. I hate when you get a shitty host

I don't personally care for Speed ITF's unless you just want to show off. But yeah 15/20 for a pub group. My kill alls range from 35 to 50 min.  

 

Edited October 26, 2020 by Hops

[Bill Z Bubba]

For the ITF, I'll take what I can get but I'd much rather spend an hour slaughtering everything at max diff than spend 10 mins zerging through it at +0.

[macskull]

Yeah I'm in the 10-15 minute camp. Anything longer than 20 is a drag.

[Ironblade]

On 10/24/2020 at 1:24 PM, Lockpick said:

 

I am usually fine with a defeat most or all, but today just didn't have the time.  I wasn't aware the XP bonus was higher if the mission is completed faster.  Is that confirmed any where?

Not that I'm aware of.  I'm pretty sure this is an urban myth.

 

On 10/24/2020 at 1:40 PM, Doomguide2005 said:

Never heard there was an actual bonus for shorter times.

 

On 10/24/2020 at 2:57 PM, Veelectric Boogaloo said:

I've never heard of anything remotely like different completion bonuses depending on the amount killed.

And these two seem to agree.

[Bill Z Bubba]

34 minutes ago, Ironblade said:

And these two seem to agree.

Mish completion bonuses do not change. Folks seem to be confusing actual XP/min rates with clear alls vs zerging.

Example to the contrary: I get a LOT more XP/min doing clear all repeatable missions in DA than I would by hitting objectives and moving to the next mission. A lot of that has to do with the fact that I'm +3 and getting +4 bonuses for fighting +1s.

[Troo]

Speed Runs = Skipping parts of the missions to focus on objectives

 

The term Speed could be a misnomer as it doesn't necessarily guarantee Time. Team make up, players involved, etc all have pretty big impacts on the result.

 

45-ish minutes for a pickup team seems right. (sure 45 is not terribly fast, maybe ranging from 30 to maybe 50)

 

 

If we are expecting to shave 15 minutes off a pickup team time, it might be worth taking a moment to confirm with the team to avoid disappointment.

Dropping is lame for all parties (though sometimes.. unavoidable)

 

If someone is expecting 20 min from random pick up teams consistently, I laugh at your optimism 😃 ... unless UNLESS someone can carry the team to that time. 

I'm totally okay with "Why are you skipping ahead?" "Yall said it was a speed run, I'll have this done in 15, keep up :)"

 

just my 0.02

Edited October 26, 2020 by Troo

[CrudeVileTerror]

I mean, we could make it interesting  . . . 

Assemble two teams of roughly equivalent power in terms of Damage and Debuffs.

Have one team do search-and-destroy kill-all runs,

and the other team maximum speed.

Have them run Imperius for two and a half hours, non-stop.

 

At the end, ask both teams their tallies on Experience, Inf, Drops, and Merits.

 

Repeat as necessary for scientific rigour.

[Mr. Vee]

I for one wouldn't care if the kill all greatly outperformed speed in such a test and i'm guessing the non-speed crew wouldn't care if speed outperformed non-. It's personal preference really. I get on a plow itf, not even kill all, and i'm already losing my mind by the altar. I recognize there are folks who're just as bored by speed as I am by non- and that's fine. i'm just annoyed when occasionally i'll run into someone who won't join a speed even when they have nothing else to do because they think the gains are crappy. 

[Ukase]

Here's my two cents: 

Never do a kill most. Even if you need XP. Just do more speed itfs. The math is clear - you get more xp in doing 60 minutes of speed itfs than 1 kill most itf. You get more drops. Why? because the lts, bosses, elites have greater chances of dropping than minions, and in speed runs, you defeat a higher percentage of the higher ups. (overall - some runs may vary). You certainly get more merits. 

These folks that do kill most itfs are either doing it for thematic/rp reasons, or they just haven't done the math. 

That said: 
Speed Run ITF - sub 10 minutes - but that's a Team of dedicated speeders, with powersets/ATs optimized for ITF. 

Speedy run ITF - 10-15 minutes. 

Casual Run ITF - 20-30 minutes. 

Kill Most ITF - Cut yourself. Wake up, do some math. But if you must, 45 - 60 minutes. 

[Bill Z Bubba]

45 minutes ago, Ukase said:

These folks that do kill most itfs are either doing it for thematic/rp reasons, or they just haven't done the math. 

You left out "because it's more fun slaughtering all the things."

 

Also, I don't think you've actually done the math.

[Lunchmoney]

1 hour ago, Ukase said:

Kill Most ITF - Cut yourself.

Excuse me?🤯

Edited October 28, 2020 by Lunchmoney

[Doomguide2005]

1 hour ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

You left out "because it's more fun slaughtering all the things."

 

Also, I don't think you've actually done the math.

I suspect (emphasis there) that the ITF is also a bit of an outlier.  There are a LOT of mobs on that very large map.  Quite a bit different than rapidly cycling radio or other short repeatable maps.   Question being does that work for or against it in the question of xp over time.