Focused Feedback: Travel Power Updates (Build 1)

[Tigraine]

16 minutes ago, Aracknight said:

...Combat Speed(doesn't exist, i know.  you get the point))

 

We normally refer to that as "Hasten."  😉

[Aracknight]

1 minute ago, Tigraine said:

 

We normally refer to that as "Hasten."  😉

 

[Terminal]

On 3/15/2021 at 4:18 AM, Greycat said:

 

I think I kind of get what's being talked about here.

 

Initially, we had stealth (less stealth, but you can attack,) then invisibility (initially, much better invis that only a few mobs could see through, with the cost that you could *not* attack,) and phase shift (just dealing with the self affecting powers.)  A very few powersets - Illusion, especially, and later stalkers - had the "perk" that you could be invisible and attack.

 

Then you could attack from invis, but it would suppress. Which still had the "cost" that other ATs had to make that pool pick, in addition to a travel power. (This, IIRC, came after IOs and the +Stealth, which did open up other options, such as the SS+IO, or stealth +IO in a sprint/travel power... so there's still a bit of a cost there.)

 

And now the concern is we're down to one power pool pick for travel *and* full invisibility you can attack from, which kind of nullifies the "specialness" of those old sets - since they now have to make the same number of picks (since they need a travel power anyway, unless they go with temps.)  So what should be done with those powers - minimal END cost? Increasing the stealth radius further really has no use in PVE, at least. (And stalker Hide has no cost now, as I recall, given it's a critical part of their AT's inherent.) How should they - or should they - be buffed?

 

Granted, I hadn't thought of this myself 'til I saw this and started reading back a bit. Not sure what my opinion on it is. There's a fair bit of it built into Warshades, as well, so I do have a dog in the race, sort of.

 

(As far as not taking concealment - I take it not infrequently. It's fairly common on my PBs - flight +concealment with Incan queued up = great way to say hello to a void.)

 

I do not have a lot of ideas on how to improve or 'fix' the concealment pool now that the djinn is out of the proverbial bottle honestly. My go-to reflex is that perhaps stealth should only give normal stealth values, but stack with infiltration to create 'true' combat invisibility, and as it already does, would not stack with various other concealment powers from various powersets such as steamy mist and cloak of darkness. That you at least still have to work a little to get true combat invisibility, assuming people are not using the super speed/celerity IO tactic.

 

Perhaps if I wanted to start a riot, I would suggest making a stealth equivalent to afterburner.

[Doc_Scorpion]

51 minutes ago, Aracknight said:

 Compromise was once explained to me as "no one feels they got nothing, and no one feels the other side got everything."

[Aracknight]

Really digging Infiltration.  I have it two slotted with Winter's Gift and I've been zipping around Faultline, Grandville, and other high-elevation zones and having a good time.   I was even able to get on top of the globe in Atlas Park when jumping from city hall.   Mechanics aside, I'm just straight up having fun with it.  

 

I'm gonna have to bite the bullet and trade fly for it when it goes live.  I don't really like relying on temp powers like jetpacks, but I haven't had this much fun travelling since I first learned Super Jump when I joined back in I-8.

Edited March 16, 2021 by Aracknight

[Duck-Smokes-Quack]

4 hours ago, gameboy1234 said:

 

Don't forget that Fly+Afterburner is two power picks.  It should be equivalent in speed and utility to something like taking Super Speed+ Super Jump

 

I dont agree with this logic for a few reasons:
 

1. SS + SJ are two distinct trees so why should that be comparable to the highest tier of a single tree?
2. SS + SJ are very very active to use - you cant just go grab a drink when flying accross the shadow shard lets say. Flights ease of use and versitility are why it should always be the slowest. If flight was the fastest/join fastest there would be almost no reason to pick anything else (apart from SS for indoors) since it has unmatched compelted 3d mobility

 

Flight is too powerful to not be the slowest

[QuiJon]

1 hour ago, Aracknight said:

I don't disagree with you, except for on what is being solved.  Right now some people have an issue with hover's animation overriding fly's because they want the benefits of both.  This pushes the benefits of hover into fly, and solves the animation issue, not to mention the endurance issue of running more than one toggle.

Another way to solve this animation issue would be to allow us to choose our animation off of the popup menu. There are a total of 4 animations for fly, and 1 for hover. Just i guess allow us to set a base animation, like change hovers base animation to that of fly, then give us a button on the popup that changes between the 4 fly animations and 1 hover at our choice, maybe if it can be a preset so that everytime you turn fly, hover etc on or off it sticks to whatever the last animation selected was until you change it. 

[QuiJon]

39 minutes ago, Duck-Smokes-Quack said:

I dont agree with this logic for a few reasons:
 

1. SS + SJ are two distinct trees so why should that be comparable to the highest tier of a single tree?
2. SS + SJ are very very active to use - you cant just go grab a drink when flying accross the shadow shard lets say. Flights ease of use and versitility are why it should always be the slowest. If flight was the fastest/join fastest there would be almost no reason to pick anything else (apart from SS for indoors) since it has unmatched compelted 3d mobility

 

Flight is too powerful to not be the slowest

1 all SS, SJ, and Fly are ENTRY level powers in their persective pools. So honestly by your logic, right now AB is a Tier 3 power in flight. Now  that is changing but if you want to asign tiers that is where it is at. So that should mean balanced by those standards that Flight, requiring the additional selection of Hover and AB should have always exceeded SS+SJ in how fast it can get you there.

 

I dont compare the shard to anything. Cause lets also face it SS either get jet packs or simply wait for teleports in the shard they dont run it anyway, and most so do SJer. However for normal city zones, I can still hit run lock and hold the space bar and cross just about any zone i wish with SJ. and SS with the jet packs is not much different. Not only that but travel is not game play, i dont see a reason why it has a need to be balanced. By that standard when i level up a blaster solo i am mezed just as much as i am leveling up a scrapper solo, so apparently either blasters require full time mez protection like a scrapper or scrappers should lose theirs. I mean it is only fair even if it is a punishment to scrappers for the sake of balancing damage dealers.....

[Bopper]

Performed a simple test to mirror work Gameboy did earlier. I tested with maxed out Fly Speed (87.95 mph + 102.27 mph), Jump Speed (101.8 mph), and Run Speed (120.24 mph). I travelled between the Vanguard DPO in Peregrine Island to the central Portal Corps building, then vice versa. Averaging their trips I got the following results:

 

Super Speed: 28.2s.

Mighty Leap (no Takeoff): 29.9s.

Fly: 32.2s.

Afterburner: 28.0s.

 

Bonus test, put in Infiltration and got it to the 92.5 mph run cap and 78.18 mph jump cap.

Infiltration: 31.7s

[Wavicle]

1 minute ago, Bopper said:

Performed a simple test to mirror work Gameboy did earlier. I tested with maxed out Fly Speed (87.95 mph + 102.27 mph), Jump Speed (101.8 mph), and Run Speed (120.24 mph). I travelled between the Vanguard DPO in Peregrine Island to the central Portal Corps building, then vice versa. Averaging their trips I got the following results:

 

Super Speed: 28.2s.

Mighty Leap (no Takeoff): 29.9s.

Fly: 32.2s.

Afterburner: 28.0s.

 

Bonus test, put in Infiltration and got it to the 92.5 mph run cap and 78.18 mph jump cap.

Infiltration: 31.7s

Nice. The difference is incredibly small.

[arthurh35353]

45 minutes ago, Bopper said:

Performed a simple test to mirror work Gameboy did earlier. I tested with maxed out Fly Speed (87.95 mph + 102.27 mph), Jump Speed (101.8 mph), and Run Speed (120.24 mph). I travelled between the Vanguard DPO in Peregrine Island to the central Portal Corps building, then vice versa. Averaging their trips I got the following results:

So you picked a distance that is only roughly 30 seconds away with flight's flaws maximize at 90s...

 

That's unbiased.

Edited March 16, 2021 by arthurh35353

[Bopper]

6 minutes ago, arthurh35353 said:

So you picked a distance that is only roughly 30 seconds away with flight's flaws maximize at 90s...

 

That's unbiased.

I also ran the test without using Afterburner at all. But I welcome you to perform your own testing and provide your results.

[Wavicle]

Nerva and IP have north and south transport.

Again, the ONLY place in the game big enough for this to matter is the Shadow Shard where Fly and Teleport are hands down the best.

[SwitchFade]

Hi. I like pie. Yes, 🥧. Also, Pi. Yes, that mathematically weird thing.

 

Because of my like for this pi(e), and my observation of behavioral... Anomalies?.... In the thread, I give you this...

 

Fly=x

Old Afterburner=y

New Maneuver power in fly pool=z

New afterburner=q

 

Deep breath...

 

x+y=x+z

x+y+q>x+y

 

So, yeah. Now that we've removed the omgragefoam reaction based on nomenclature, we see that the new>the old.

 

You are welcome for the 🥧.

 

Also, Nerf Regen.

 

[Yuro]

Don't have time to test right now, but has anyone tried Speed Phase with things like the vault doors in Safeguards and Mayhems, the destroyable wall in the Eden TF, and the destroyable wall in the 40+ villain mission (I think maybe this one?).

Edited March 17, 2021 by Yuro

[macskull]

I mean, it seems like even if this does cause issues with flying characters during the pylon portion of MSRs (spoiler alert: it won't), the smart thing to do would be for those people to just skip a pylon every now and again and get a head start on the next one. Am I wrong here?

[Bopper]

3 minutes ago, Tigraine said:

Get me 48 people on beta with a variety of travel powers and we will.  I'm not talking theoretical numbers here, I'm talking practical application, which is a whole different scenario.

That's not a practical application for comparing speed. That's like comparing a Ferrari to a minivan while sitting in rush hour traffic. I spelled out how to run the test above, just do that. If the point is to see how fast you can go from one pylon to another, then that's how you do it. Waiting around to have 47 other players join you in killing the pylon is ridiculous. Stop trolling

[Glacier Peak]

2 hours ago, arthurh35353 said:

So you picked a distance that is only roughly 30 seconds away with flight's flaws maximize at 90s...

 

That's unbiased.

This forum poster’s opinion got me thinking how best to demonstrate speed similarities and disparities. I designed some simple testing to come up with evidence to do so, with a focus on extreme/outlier situations. I used the following methodology:

 

Three courses: Peregrine Island (Bottom to Top), Nerva Archipelago (Bottom to Top), Grandville (Blackline Helicopter to red windows at the top of W.E.B./Tangle Tower).

 

These locations were selected due to their simplicity, extreme distance, and direction – no missions take you to these locations, no badges to go to or from, no enemies to fight, and in the case of the Grandville course, no reason to get to the red window near the top of the tower (unless you want to jump off maybe?) – all that to say that they are outliers because the way this game exists on Homecoming, with the combination of using travel powers, tram lines or ferries, super group bases or long range teleport, LFG tab, or my favorite, either of the two mission teleporter powers – players ***are given the ability*** to get to anywhere in such a short amount of time that it doesn’t require more than two minutes to go from one place in the game, to anywhere else. I dare you to prove me wrong! (And please post your methodology so I can verify your results, just like you can test mine!). It is important to add that not all players are capable of utilizing the mechanics of the game to the fullest extent possible, due to any number of reasons, therefore, these numbers should be understood to be outliers, extreme examples, not examples of routine gameplay.

 

Each course is run three times with each power for an average. Course layouts are posted as images below. Each run is done with only the specific travel power active; i.e., Super Speed only, Super Jump only, Fly only. Results posted in the table below. Each power is at its cap during testing. For the Grandville course, the routes for Super Speed and Super Jump use whichever structure allows for quickest ascent – (north ward entrance to north ward lift 1, to the cabling all the way up was my fastest method for SS at least). One interesting thing on the Peregrine Island with Afterburner runs, I was able to activate Afterburner TWICE during these journeys.

 

If anything, this data should indicate how speed is just one aspect of travel utility – verticality is also an aspect that, in the case of the Grandville course, makes a lot of difference.

 

Power/Course	Peregrine Island (2.72 miles)	Nerva Archipelago (1.96 miles)	Grandville (0.83 miles)
Super Speed	1 minute, 22 seconds	59 seconds	1 minute, 35 seconds
Super Jump	1 minute, 36 seconds	1 minute, 10 seconds	58 seconds
Fly	1 minute, 50 seconds	1 minute, 20 seconds	34 seconds
Fly w/Afterburner	1 minute, 41 seconds	1 minute, 15 seconds	28 seconds

 

Spoiler

          

 

Lastly, this testing required approximately two hours of investment on the beta server to conduct. The next time a forum poster complains about someone’s testing, I strongly recommend they replicate the testing to see if their results are different (instead of just complaining about their testing). As an aside, during this testing I discovered that if you fly to the bottom of the map in Peregrine Island, it teleports you to the top of the northern islands in Talos Island, I had no idea it did that! Is that even intentional?

 

 

Edited March 17, 2021 by Glacier Peak
table spacing and updated discussion per input from other poster

[Bopper]

2 minutes ago, Tigraine said:

I've done plenty, and on fliers, I often get there in time to only get a couple of hits off before it goes down.  If my relative speed decreases, I expect I'll often be out of the fight altogether.

And before anyone says anything about flight speed being faster than it is now on live, be sure you understand the word "relative."

Yeah, you're still struggling with math. If you were using afterburner in that scenario, then you showing up to a pylon too slowly is user error.

 

If you are using regular fly, these changes has improved your speed ratio relative to superspeed and super jump (15% improvement), plus you have afterburner for free (since you clearly must have not used as nobody is the cause of that much user error).

[Glacier Peak]

35 minutes ago, Yuro said:

Don't have time to test right now, but has anyone tried Speed Phase with things like the vault doors in Safeguards and Mayhems, the destroyable wall in the Eden TF, and the destroyable wall in the 40+ villain mission (I think maybe this one?).

Yes, I have! Link to my findings below, but to answer your question it does not allow travel through vault doors or destroyable walls (prisoner walls even).

 

 

[Myrmidon]

13 minutes ago, Glacier Peak said:

As an aside, during this testing I discovered that if you fly to the bottom of the map in Peregrine Island, it teleports you to the top of the northern islands in Talos Island, I had no idea it did that! Is that even intentional?

That has always been the case, its just not something most people notice much.😁

[Jimmy]

14 minutes ago, Glacier Peak said:

This forum poster’s opinion got me thinking how best to demonstrate speed similarities and disparities. I designed some simple testing to come up with evidence to do so, with a focus on extreme/outlier situations. I used the following methodology:

 

Three courses: Peregrine Island (Bottom to Top), Nerva Archipelago (Bottom to Top), Grandville (Blackline Helicopter to red windows at the top of W.E.B./Tangle Tower).

 

These locations were selected due to their simplicity, extreme distance, and direction – no missions take you to these locations, no badges to go to or from, no enemies to fight, and in the case of the Grandville course, no reason to get to the red window near the top of the tower (unless you want to jump off maybe?) – all that to say that they are outliers because the way this game exists on Homecoming, with the combination of using travel powers, tram lines or ferries, super group bases or long range teleport, LFG tab, or my favorite, either of the two mission teleporter powers – players can get to anywhere in such a short amount of time that it doesn’t require more than two minutes to go from one place in the game, to anywhere else. I dare you to prove me wrong! (And please post your methodology so I can verify your results, just like you can test mine!)

 

Each course is run three times with each power for an average. Course layouts are posted as images below. Each run is done with only the specific travel power active; i.e., Super Speed only, Super Jump only, Fly only. Results posted in the table below. Each power is at its cap during testing. For the Grandville course, the routes for Super Speed and Super Jump use whichever structure allows for quickest ascent – (north ward entrance to north ward lift 1, to the cabling all the way up was my fastest method for SS at least). One interesting thing on the Peregrine Island with Afterburner runs, I was able to activate Afterburner TWICE during these journeys.

 

If anything, this data should indicate how speed is just one aspect of travel utility – verticality is also an aspect that, in the case of the Grandville course, makes a lot of difference.

 

Power/Course	Peregrine Island (2.72 miles)	Nerva Archipelago (1.96 miles)	Grandville (0.83 miles)
Super Speed	1 minute, 22 seconds	59 seconds	1 minute, 35 seconds
Super Jump	1 minute, 36 seconds	1 minute, 10 seconds	58 seconds
Fly	1 minute, 50 seconds	1 minute, 20 seconds	34 seconds
Fly w/Afterburner	1 minute, 41 seconds	1 minute, 15 seconds	28 seconds

 

  Reveal hidden contents

          

 

Lastly, this testing required approximately two hours of investment on the beta server to conduct. The next time a forum poster complains about someone’s testing, I strongly recommend they replicate the testing to see if their results are different (instead of just complaining about their testing). As an aside, during this testing I discovered that if you fly to the bottom of the map in Peregrine Island, it teleports you to the top of the northern islands in Talos Island, I had no idea it did that! Is that even intentional?

 

 

This is great to see, nice work @Glacier Peak!

 

Regarding the MSR comments - Fast enough MSRs wouldn't be allowing you to activate old Afterburner for the full duration between each Pylon. You'd be much more likely to fall behind then than you are now that you can fight without dropping the toggle giving you your enhanced speed cap.

[Aracknight]

So....to be clear.  We're upset that New Fly is slower than New Super Speed and New Super Leap when....Old Fly is slower than Old Super Speed and Old Super Leap?

 

And the issue is during MSRs, fliers are slower than other travel powers?  The same way it is now?  Especially when a *lot* of those fliers are using jet packs because most of the city (according to some posters) get by on PTW travel powers and not the Travel Pool powers because (checks notes) Travel Pools are superfluous with the PTW store?

 

On live, I use fly.  It's certainly slower than people with SS and SJ.  I get a few licks in on a pylon, like everyone else.  A lot of people are built to solo pylons.  I can.  Get a few of those guys together and a pylon crumbles quick.  And if you're that far behind....you still know where the league is gonna end up.

 

Is...is it me?

 

 

 

 

[Galaxy Brain]

 

 

For real though, I am downright confused. Can somebody explain what we are upset about given we are all faster now, and the relative speeds of each powerset are in tact vs each other?

 

 

 

[Starforge]

Aracknight, I think you nailed the main points of the ongoing debate.

Edited March 17, 2021 by Starforge