issue 27 Patch Notes for April 20th, 2021 - Issue 27, Page 2

[Luminara]

3 hours ago, Spectre7878 said:

So I am standing in  zone with my combat attributes open and when I turn on each toggle my defense drops a good 20%. Then it goes back up. I don’t think my defense so go down just for turn on a toggle. What’s the point of having stealth when my powers such as distribution aura, scorpion shield, or assault suppresses my defense out of combat.

 

Stealth maxes out at ~16% fully slotted on defenders, and ~12% of that suppresses.  If you're losing ~20%, then it's suppressing part of the Defense from other powers as well.  I'm not seeing that behavior on the characters I've tested.  Take a screenshot of your Combat Attributes with Defense showing while at full value and after being suppressed and post it here.

[Arbegla]

8 minutes ago, Troo said:

We're running into a user experience that conflicts with the spreadsheet design.

 

We are running a power that has, in this case, has a jumping value. Then we are going to add another power (now two powers running) that has additional jumping value.

 

1+2=3

not

1+2=2

 

While I understand what is happening, I think we are failing to acknowledge what is intuitive.

 

But it's not like that at all, you actually jump higher with Super Jump then with Combat Jumping. Its more like a replacement value, instead of an additional value.

[Troo]

@Arbegla oh.. maybe I should have said I understand how it works rather than 'what is happening'.

 

Replacement value made sense when toggling one detoggled the other. Now, again, we are failing to acknowledge what is intuitive.

[Taboo]

1 hour ago, Uun said:

I can now run Combat Jumping at the same time as Super Jump or Ninja Run, the effects don't stack.

 

These should stack. That's what was being sold with the changes.

 

If they don't stack for travel powers why wouldn't they? It is unimaginable why they wouldn't stack. Does jumping a little higher break something.. no it does not.

 

Sprint + Super Speed stacks, doesn't it?

Swift + Sprint + Super Speed stacks, doesn't it?

but Combat Jumping + Super Jump doesn't.. it's wildly inconsistent with 'they now stack'

 

Gain = increase the amount or rate of (something, typically weight or speed).

 

 

Edited April 22, 2021 by Taboo

[Arbegla]

11 minutes ago, Troo said:

@Arbegla oh.. maybe I should have said I understand how it works rather than 'what is happening'.

 

Replacement value made sense when toggling one detoggled the other. Now, again, we are failing to acknowledge what is intuitive.

 

Quote

Travel Power Stacking

• Almost all travel powers are no longer mutually exclusive and can be activated at the same time, but only the strongest buff of each type (run speed, jump speed, jump height, fly speed, air control) will apply

 

Call me crazy but the patch notes seem to clear it up nicely. What isn't intuitive about that?

[Troo]

1 minute ago, Arbegla said:

 

 

Call me crazy but the patch notes seem to clear it up nicely. What isn't intuitive about that?

 

I was trying to be nice. Not everyone is reading the forum much less the buried patch notes.

 

No need to be a dog with a bone here. I'm dropping this subject as I made my point.

[Arbegla]

I get where you're coming from. Its intuitive to me, even without the patch notes, so I'm honestly just trying to understand why it isn't to you, and others. And you really wouldn't be able to notice unless your monitoring your travel speeds specifically and seeing the buff from one power be overwritten by the buff from another, and really, only Combat Jumping's +jump buff and the +jump buff from other 'travel' powers, and Hovers +fly and the +fly buff from other travel powers (though I think you can actually stack hover and Evasive Maneuvers together..) comes to mind here, I can't really think of any other powers that interacted that way before, Heck, you can enable Super Speed, and Combat Jumping (or Super Jump) at the same time already, because they give difference buffs.

[Jimmy]

Troo has a point - it's not mentioned anywhere in-game. The power descriptions should reflect it.

[Arbegla]

12 minutes ago, Jimmy said:

Troo has a point - it's not mentioned anywhere in-game. The power descriptions should reflect it.

 

Definitely. That could help clear things up a lot.

 

Would just Hover and Combat Jumping have the 'disclaimer'? I'm not sure what other powers come to mind, though if you can stack Mighty Leap and Super Jump I guess that would need it as well.

[KingofMonkeys]

19 hours ago, ForceMajeure said:

 

Yeah, rendered the skill almost unusable at this point, esp with the exp Marksman pvp-set. Not going to be using this. 😕

Yeah its baffling, so a snipe should be no better than any ranged attack? Sure it has extra damage, the extra rech/endurance is paying for that, but 80' in combat or no is just kind of silly. Waiting for a dev's response on why they felt the need to change this.

[UberGuy]

The "fast" in combat snipe is no longer a sniper shot. It's just a high DPA attack.

 

I mean, don't get me wrong. It's not like I'm excited about this change - I have quite a few characters with snipes. But I get that the "fast" version isn't following any of the rules that make the slow version different from other attacks - it has no interrupt window and a way slower overall cast time. It's basically a regular (though very good) attack.

 

I don't see why it's either so terrible a change or so hard to grok the reasoning, even if I do understand that any downgrade is rarely enjoyed.

[KingofMonkeys]

7 minutes ago, UberGuy said:

The "fast" in combat snipe is no longer a sniper shot. It's just a high DPA attack.

 

I mean, don't get me wrong. It's not like I'm excited about this change - I have quite a few characters with snipes. But I get that the "fast" version isn't following any of the rules that make the slow version different from other attacks - it has no interrupt window and a way slower overall cast time. It's basically a regular (though very good) attack.

 

I don't see why it's either so terrible a change or so hard to grok the reasoning, even if I do understand that any downgrade is rarely enjoyed.

The point I'm trying to make is why make the change at all then? Was it so broken that it needed to be changed? Cause I kinda feel like having the extra range midcombat was a nice perk for fliers/runners and the like.

[Wavicle]

Just now, KingofMonkeys said:

The point I'm trying to make is why make the change at all then? Was it so broken that it needed to be changed? Cause I kinda feel like having the extra range midcombat was a nice perk for fliers/runners and the like.

Yes, having that much range on the fast version was broken.

[Wavicle]

The fast and slow versions both still buff Blaster range significantly.

[UberGuy]

Things like "was it that broken" or "it doesn't break the game" are strawman statements that don't have any objective basis. There are (admittedly not well documented for us) standards the devs try to follow for things. Why don't all attacks have some different range than they do now? I dunno, but they have pretty consistent standards*. A powers dev decided only "real" sniper mode attacks should exceed the now-standard ranges. I can see what they were going for, but they'd have to explain the "why". (I wouldn't mind knowing myself.)

 

* If you were playing long enough, you may remember that stronger attacks actually used to have shorter ranges than "high" or "extreme" damage ones. So what we have now is way better, IMO.

[KingofMonkeys]

16 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

Yes, having that much range on the fast version was broken.

 

Then I would like to be able to use my "interuptable" version of the snipe mid combat as well, as in, even tho the little yellow circle is there, if any enemy is far outside of range, I want to still be able to utilize the snipe range, make it interuptable. But at least I will still feel like I actually have a snipe power. The point I'm getting at is the loss of range/utility is what sucks the most about this change.

[Bopper]

1 hour ago, Arbegla said:

 

Definitely. That could help clear things up a lot.

 

Would just Hover and Combat Jumping have the 'disclaimer'? I'm not sure what other powers come to mind, though if you can stack Mighty Leap and Super Jump I guess that would need it as well.

All powers using the collective stacking suppression would need it. For example, Infiltration's Jump is higher than Combat Jumping's, but not higher than Super Jump's. But an enhanced Infiltration's Jump could be higher than an unenhanced Super Jump.

 

I don't know a good way to add it to the description that would perfectly make sense, but some words would be better than no words.

 

Ideally, I'd love the detailed info for powers to show which effects use TravelBuff and indicate it uses the Suppress Stacking

[Jimmy]

Just now, Bopper said:

I don't know a good way to add it to the description that would perfectly make sense, but some words would be better than no words.

I was thinking something along the lines of:

• "Although [Super Jump] can be used at the same time as other jumping toggles, only the strongest jump buff will apply."
• "Although [Ninja Run] can be used at the same time as other running and jumping toggles, only the strongest run buff and strongest jump buff will apply."
• "[Sprint]'s movement buff stacks with other travel powers." 

Sprint is actually the exception now so it needs to be noted as such.

[Uun]

2 hours ago, UberGuy said:

 

As @Arbegla says, it's because the best power now wins. Remember, you could not run these together before. The intent is not to change them to be stackable when they weren't before - it's to let us get the bet of all of them at the same time when run together.

 

I understand what it's doing, but I'm not sure it makes sense. Combat Jumping and Ninja Run previously stacked with Sprint and Hurdle but couldn't be run together. Now they can be run together, but nothing stacks (including Sprint and Hurdle, which stacked before). Per CoD, travel powers now have a "highest value suppresses others" flag.

[Jimmy]

Just now, Uun said:

I understand what it's doing, but I'm not sure it makes sense. Combat Jumping and Ninja Run previously stacked with Sprint and Hurdle but couldn't be run together. Now they can be run together, but nothing stacks (including Sprint and Hurdle, which stacked before). Per CoD, travel powers now have a "highest value suppresses others" flag.

This isn't quite the case. Ninja Run and Combat Jumping couldn't be used together before. Now you can use them together, and you get:

• Combat Jumping's defence
• Combat Jumping's immob protection
• Combat Jumping's air control (as it's stronger than Ninja Run's air control)
• Ninja Run's jump speed and height (as it's stronger than Combat Jumping's jump speed and height)
• Ninja Run's run speed

Sprint is also an exception when it comes to toggles and does stack with everything (as it always did before). Hurdle (and Swift) are auto powers, and aren't subject to the stacking suppression.

[Arbegla]

7 minutes ago, Uun said:

 

I understand what it's doing, but I'm not sure it makes sense. Combat Jumping and Ninja Run previously stacked with Sprint and Hurdle but couldn't be run together. Now they can be run together, but nothing stacks (including Sprint and Hurdle, which stacked before). Per CoD, travel powers now have a "highest value suppresses others" flag.

 

I'd like some confirmation that Swift, Hurdle, and Sprint aren't stacking with the existing travel powers, as those had all previous stacked (being Automatic powers and stackable powers in every regard).

 

I haven't been in game in a bit, real life sucks.

[Uun]

2 minutes ago, Jimmy said:

This isn't quite the case. Ninja Run and Combat Jumping couldn't be used together before. Now you can use them together, and you get:

• Combat Jumping's defence
• Combat Jumping's immob protection
• Combat Jumping's air control (as it's stronger than Ninja Run's air control)
• Ninja Run's jump speed and height (as it's stronger than Combat Jumping's jump speed and height)
• Ninja Run's run speed

Sprint is also an exception when it comes to toggles and does stack with everything (as it always did before). Hurdle (and Swift) are auto powers, and aren't subject to the stacking suppression.

 

Thanks for the clarification. I'm at work so couldn't check in game. 

[Bopper]

12 minutes ago, Jimmy said:

I was thinking something along the lines of:

• "Although [Super Jump] can be used at the same time as other jumping toggles, only the strongest jump buff will apply."
• "Although [Ninja Run] can be used at the same time as other running and jumping toggles, only the strongest run buff and strongest jump buff will apply."
• "[Sprint]'s movement buff stacks with other travel powers." 

Sprint is actually the exception now so it needs to be noted as such.

I would say that is a great start (probably the right approach, in fact). Another approach might be to state:

 

• "Although [Super Jump] can be used at the same time as other jumping toggles, a [Super Jump] effect will suppress if another jumping toggle's effect is stronger.

I dont word things as well as you, but you can see how I'm trying to frame it. Directly indicate you will lose a power's effect(s) if another power has a stronger effect. Of course, this doesn't exactly answer which effects are tagged with TravelBuff and which other powers have them. It might be a good HC Wiki entry to detail it though (I'm slipping off topic, I'll make my coffee now).

Edited April 22, 2021 by Bopper

[TalonBlue]

In regards to the changes Rune of Protection, all I have to say is please take a look at Poison now sooner please.

 

Being able to cycle between Melee Hybrid and RoP made Poison’s play style playable. Venomous Gas can be turned off from enemy mezzes and requires the player to be in melee range as well as Poison Trap, on a squishy AT. 

[PeregrineFalcon]

20 hours ago, ForceMajeure said:

Yeah, rendered the skill almost unusable at this point, esp with the exp Marksman pvp-set. Not going to be using this. 😕

Agreed.

 

Also, I'm always amazed when a big patch goes live and people suddenly show up to complain about stuff like this. My question is always "We were testing stuff on the test server and talking about this for weeks, why didn't you mention this then?"

 

This is why it's important to test stuff and discuss it while it's still on the test server and more likely to be changed. Good luck getting the developers to change it now.