Do AoE Sleeps even serve a purpose in today's City of Heroes?

[Blackfeather]

4 minutes ago, Solarverse said:

I think what he is saying, is that it would cause them to knock down instead of knock back. Basically, it serves the same purpose as the KB to KD IO. But, if you fail to use the AoE Immob, it would fling them all over the place. That's if my assumption is correct, I have not tested this so I am not 100% on this.

 

That's correct - from the May 30th, 2019 patch notes:

 

Quote

POWERS

• Immobilize Powers in Controller and Dominator primary power sets should no longer make their targets immune to KnockUp. KnockBack will be converted to KnockDown. This helps sets like Ice and Earth, as their AOE Immobilize power will no longer make their AOE Knockback power useless.

Edited June 8, 2021 by Blackfeather

[Naraka]

6 minutes ago, Solarverse said:

The thing is, I spent a LONG time trying to figure out what to pair with /Thorn and Fire was my eventual primary that I decided on. So I plan to play this particular character long term and right now he is only level 20 since I have only soloed with him so far by doing the story arcs. However, eventually I will be teaming with him, getting him all decked out and such and I honestly don;'t want to continue playing him if they are going to nerf one of the key functions that was a determining factors for choosing it in the first place, heh. So if it's going to get nerfed, I would kind of like to know about it so I can re-roll now before he gets any higher level, I'm sure you can get where I am coming from there...we have all suffered that demise at one time or another, lol.

I'm sorry, I have no idea if it would ever get nerfed.  If rebalancing of the control sets were being considered, I'd nominate IO'ed Bonfire and Seeds of Confusion as some targets.  If rebalancing of IO procs were being considered, KB>KD would likely not be spared among the rest.

[Solarverse]

5 minutes ago, 5099y_74c05 said:

No they just flop until the Immob wears off. They modeled it after Elec/ Aoe Immob which allows its use with Jolting Chain. I don't know what the Mag number is but they were all brought in line across all of the Controller primaries. Elec/ is the only one that  doesn't have -KB, so crap goes flying everywhere.

I am fairly certain Gravity was missed on that. If memory serves, they were going to add Gravity to that at some later date? I could be wrong.

[Xenosone]

Except for electrics sleep not for the players. The ai can use them well since they can switch targets.

[ForeverLaxx]

The only Sleep I feel good taking just for the sleep effect is Static Field from Elec Control. Since it reapplies itself over the duration of the zone, it's one of the more useful sleeps for standard teams and has a wide enough area to use it as an emergency way to prevent the next spawn from potentially aggroing by mistake.

[Greycat]

13 hours ago, Riverdusk said:

 

Ice's sleep (flash freeze) is ranged.  Maybe you are confusing it with the hold.  Flash freeze has a 60 foot range and takes ranged aoe damage sets, not melee.

 

 

... you know, I've had it lumped in with Salt Crystals from Earth Control in my head, which is a PBAOE (which is also the reason I don't take it there.)  I've had those two lumped together as PBAOE since *live* for some reason. And I've run both to 50 multiple times, skipping it because I remembered it as PBAOE.

 

Heh.

[Black Zot]

8 hours ago, Naraka said:

I'm sorry, I have no idea if it would ever get nerfed.  If rebalancing of the control sets were being considered, I'd nominate IO'ed Bonfire and Seeds of Confusion as some targets.  If rebalancing of IO procs were being considered, KB>KD would likely not be spared among the rest.

 

Considering every move the devs have made so far has been in the direction of mitigating knockback, this is highly unlikely.  The immob change was specifically so control sets could easily corral effects that would otherwise send mobs flying out of reach, and there was, at one point, a test on beta of a one-stop "convert all KB to KD" solution.  Gravity control has also had the pull-in effect added to Singularity which more than overpowers any knockback that thing does.

 

The devs have recognized that putting knockback in so many things was a dumb idea.  The odds that they would reverse course and outright ruin a set that heavily relies on a KD damage patch to be viable are very slim.

Edited June 8, 2021 by Black Zot

[arcane]

Fire Control doesn’t rely on Bonfire to be viable. It was one of the most popular control sets long before KB->KD was a thing.

[UltraAlt]

On 6/6/2021 at 7:08 PM, Solarverse said:

Do any of you take AoE sleeps in your build? If so, why? What advantage does it serve in your build and how does it help you and/or your team?

 

I don't take it anymore.

There are some stone control AoEs that break when they are attacked as well that I don't take either.

 

It tends to only useful if you solo.

I can see how it could help stealthing to the end of some missions.

On a team, someone is going to AoE everything you tried to put to sleep.

 

you probably can put some procs it to do some damage, but I don't think it would be worth the endurance expenditure. 

 

I thinks would function better if the fx was changed to disorient (like they are suddenly very drowsy/sleep but not entirely unconscious). I can't see it being switched to an immobilize.

[DZKFire]

I always take it on my mind doms. Very useful for solo content (especially vs difficult mobs and/or the secondary is more single target focused). Mesmerize can 1-Hit lockdown AVs and bosses, so no need to explain why I take it over levitate.

 

I also use it [Mass Hypnosis] a lot even in team settings:

 

After the tank has aggroed and the team has engaged, I use it as a small blanket interrupt.

 

If the team suddenly starts having trouble and people start dying (usually seen in low level TFs)

 

Due to the 5% miss chance clamp (or people with poor accuracy slotting), not all targets will get hit by a stray AoE and there have been times where my "blanket interrupt" turns into a full duration CC because of unlucky rolls from the rest of my teammates.

[KC4800]

My Ice/Stone tank uses Salt Crystals for the ability to slot the self heal proc. Yes I run icicles and chilling embrace, so the sleep effect sometimes doesn't even register, but the self heal goes off every time.

[Naraka]

5 hours ago, Black Zot said:

 

Considering every move the devs have made so far has been in the direction of mitigating knockback, this is highly unlikely.  The immob change was specifically so control sets could easily corral effects that would otherwise send mobs flying out of reach, and there was, at one point, a test on beta of a one-stop "convert all KB to KD" solution.  Gravity control has also had the pull-in effect added to Singularity which more than overpowers any knockback that thing does.

 

The devs have recognized that putting knockback in so many things was a dumb idea.  The odds that they would reverse course and outright ruin a set that heavily relies on a KD damage patch to be viable are very slim.

 

I don't care about what you perceive as their trajectory.  It doesn't change the fact that that IO messed up the balance of those powers and powers like it and I won't use it because I think it's broken.

 

For extra context: 

Earthquake - 90sec recharge, 30sec duration, -10%def, -10%ToHit, no damage

Ice Slick - 90sec recharge, 30sec duration, -90% speed and -jump, no damage

Bonfire - 60sec recharge, 45sec duration, pulse fire damage

 

If nothing ever happens then enjoy your broken toys.  If they do, perhaps wrap your mind around the fact that you've been exploiting things that should not be.

[Solarverse]

9 hours ago, Greycat said:

 

... you know, I've had it lumped in with Salt Crystals from Earth Control in my head, which is a PBAOE (which is also the reason I don't take it there.)  I've had those two lumped together as PBAOE since *live* for some reason. And I've run both to 50 multiple times, skipping it because I remembered it as PBAOE.

 

Heh.

We are getting older, my friend. 😉

[honoroit]

Sleeps tend to get knocked off almost instantly. 

 

So they are most useful if pulsing (elec control, stalker bio aura), or as an interrupt/ micro halt exclusively with a fast cast and quick cool down hasted (mass hyp). 

 

But it's over in a flash. And a power pick. Salt crystals is quick, stacks more -Def for earth, but isn't pulsing, and is pbaoe... So it ends up falling of builds as situational, or imperfect and impractical. 

 

Sonic blast sleep cone on an empath, elec affinity or pain dom/thermal defender becomes a valuable few seconds of 'bad guys do a bit less damage', the attack becoming a 'make it slow down briefly' button as a control. 

 

But they remain relatively underpowered,wgen not pulsing. 

 

A nightmare, or extra damage on hit of the slept, buff all round (against players also) would be welcome imo. 

 

Or guaranteed crits... something that makes even the momentary application of sleep (to then be almost instantly hit) worthwhile. 

[Dahkness]

People that only log on to run ITFs like me have no use for them. So much clear mind in that TF. 

[Mezmera]

8 hours ago, Dahkness said:

People that only log on to run ITFs like me have no use for them. So much clear mind in that TF. 

 

There's not a better battleground for control sets to see what their toon is really made of when their controls fail them than running a strong ITF.  Except for broken bonfire...

 

I don't feel sleeps are underserved, on their own they are quite strong, especially if you need to deploy some type of strategy if there's ever anything hard to accomplish.  I've skipped taking Mass Hypnosis since Live but I do still take the ST sleep since I'm locked into one of 2 options and it retains usefulness at all times.  

 

I think just with a lot of how things have changed since Live that control has lost some luster because it's still the same thing but damage reigns supreme.  Things like procs, nuke changes, along with a bunch of other features, not just laying blame at the feet of incarnates, is what has made control feel less useful comparatively in amateurish hands.  

 

Pretty much everything @Naraka says is spot on.  

Edited June 9, 2021 by Mezmera

[oedipus_tex]

IMO Bonfire on Controllers and Dominators is probably okay. Bonfire on Blasters is either performing much better than it should or Earthquake and Ice Slick are performing worse. Mainly Ice Slick. This may be fair game because Sleet in the Dominator APPs similar overperforms. Or maybe not. It feels a little unfair in my opinion for Ice Slick to be matched by an APP power.

 

For the record, Ice Slick has an 8% chance to knockdown, roughly rolled 5 times per second. Earthquake has a 7% chance to knockdown, also rolled 5 times per second. Enemies can get knocked down again while being affected by the previous knock, which makes calculating the amount of mitigation hard.  I don't know what Bonfire with KB to KD chances are, but it's around as good as either power.  

 

All of these knock powers are way better on Homecoming than on the OG game, thanks to how the team here thankfully converted AoE immobilizes. 

 

 

RE: Sleep, my main grief with it is the damage/control specialist archetype, Dominators, is loaded with secondary sets that have DoT. Electric Control's Sleep is one of the better ones but even that doesn't mix well with some of the Dom secondaries. I've long advocated for Dominators, as specialists in this area, to have all their damage converted to up-front. There's at least one instance of a Dominator damage aura that doesn't harm sleeping enemies so at least they've thought about it. 

 

[MoonSheep]

On 6/7/2021 at 1:05 AM, MTeague said:

I have both the Single-Target and AE Sleeps on my Mind/Kin controller.  They are quite useful to me. 

 

I acknowledge the more vocal players I find on the forums believe very firmly in a Damage-Is-King, Roving Murderball of eight Soft-Capped Incarnates decked out with expensive IO builds as what you should want for a team. I vehemently disagree with this, find such teams BORING AS HELL. So I rarely team.  Most often, I solo. When I do team, it's for particularly challenging content, like First Ward / Night Ward / Number Six arcs, or squads of Rularuu, or a Malta-Extravaganza like World Wide Red. Usually with only 4-6 players on x8 settings, so having an unexpected large group or wave of scripted ambushes come at you can make having controls or a second tank important to keep from being overrun. 

 

Mass Hypnosis allows me to indefinitely park TWO extra groups, all by itself, because it recharges so much faster than it's duration.  Very little is going to resist sleeps, and if something does, I can still Terrify them to leave them trembling and not attacking while the team beats up the main group of IDF or Arachnos or Animus Arcana or what-have-we. 

 

Sleeps are also, along with Immob's, a form of control that Purple Triangles offer ZERO extra protection against.  Need to park an AV?  (MLTF, etc) Sleep them. 

Sleeps also detoggle enemies, erasing Force Field Bubbles or Tsoo Hurricanes etc.

 

Do I expect the roving murderball crews to ever appreciate sleeps? No. 

Do I care? No.

I would not want these powers yanked away from me to supply yet another Damage Uber Alles power.

 

Preeeaaachhh! 100%!

 

Sleep is a very useful power - I often use it on lower level teams if the group wouldn't be ready to handle a second mob entering the fray, or during speed runs when I'm focusing on a target and don't want to get squished. 

 

I haven't built my dom for any defense/survival as I'm not interested in the entry level shield:attack playstyle. Being able to creativity influence the dynamics of a battle (especially with things like mind or dark control) is far more enjoyable. Like you say, when everyone is invinceable it gets a bit boring. I like to plan a few sacrifices during a TF for veng 😈

[Solarverse]

20 hours ago, Mezmera said:

I think just with a lot of how things have changed since Live that control has lost some luster because it's still the same thing but damage reigns supreme.  Things like procs, nuke changes, along with a bunch of other features, not just laying blame at the feet of incarnates, is what has made control feel less useful comparatively in amateurish hands. 

Me and a guildy was actually walking about this the other night and we were trying to figure out a way that people could keep their OP damage, but also make controllers and healers feel more useful.

I mean, here is the issue...
 

1. Healers are often feeling unhelpful because teams just don't get hurt often
2. Controllers feel way underwhelmed because by the time they lock anything down, it is nuked and it's time to move on to the next mob.
3. Debuffers honestly don't get much chance to debuff anything. They all die before the Debuffs really do anything outside of AV fights...and even then, I have watched AVs go down in literal seconds.
4. Constantly playing a game of catch-up to the highest DPS'ers on the team can get tiring, lol.

So the idea we came up with is simple. The more players on your team, the more hit points the mobs have. The mobs double in hit points (just a random number) for every player on the team, but also, the XP is adjusted so that players do not lose out on the xp per minute.

How does this help? It takes more than a single rotation for a Blaster to wipe out mobs, Nukes will not insta kill mobs, contollers, healers, debuffers will actually feel needed in situations like this because mobs will be sticking around a lot longer before they go down.

I know it's not a perfect idea, but it's a start. I have not put this in the suggestion forums yet because honestly, it's hard as hell to get anyone to agree to any changes what-so-ever in this game, I have to be mentally prepared before I make a suggestion these days for the /jrangers, lol.

[golstat2003]

1 hour ago, Solarverse said:

Me and a guildy was actually walking about this the other night and we were trying to figure out a way that people could keep their OP damage, but also make controllers and healers feel more useful.

I mean, here is the issue...
 

1. Healers are often feeling unhelpful because teams just don't get hurt often
2. Controllers feel way underwhelmed because by the time they lock anything down, it is nuked and it's time to move on to the next mob.
3. Debuffers honestly don't get much chance to debuff anything. They all die before the Debuffs really do anything outside of AV fights...and even then, I have watched AVs go down in literal seconds.
4. Constantly playing a game of catch-up to the highest DPS'ers on the team can get tiring, lol.

So the idea we came up with is simple. The more players on your team, the more hit points the mobs have. The mobs double in hit points (just a random number) for every player on the team, but also, the XP is adjusted so that players do not lose out on the xp per minute.

How does this help? It takes more than a single rotation for a Blaster to wipe out mobs, Nukes will not insta kill mobs, contollers, healers, debuffers will actually feel needed in situations like this because mobs will be sticking around a lot longer before they go down.

I know it's not a perfect idea, but it's a start. I have not put this in the suggestion forums yet because honestly, it's hard as hell to get anyone to agree to any changes what-so-ever in this game, I have to be mentally prepared before I make a suggestion these days for the /jrangers, lol.

 

As long as it's an optional setting that people can turn on sure. Leave the base game as is.

[Mezmera]

3 hours ago, Solarverse said:

So the idea we came up with is simple. The more players on your team, the more hit points the mobs have. The mobs double in hit points (just a random number) for every player on the team, but also, the XP is adjusted so that players do not lose out on the xp per minute.

 

Novel but I'll just invite more blasters and coordinate our alternating booms.  

 

Sorry but as hard as it may be to hear aoe damage just needs a slight trimming.  Not back to Live levels but somewhere in between.   1,2 and 3 all have lost some relevance since Live as you and many can see and as far as I can see damage is the most pronounced thing that has changed since then.  

 

I don't care one way or another if certain damage takes a hit but just trying to be objective.  I say this as someone who plays a fabulous Dom who will take Alpha and exert my will first before that blaster booms dammit.  

Edited June 10, 2021 by Mezmera

[oedipus_tex]

FWIW this may be a cart before horse issue.

 

Sleep could be useful if there were enough enemies vulnerable to it but not other controls. Especially if those enemies had dangerous toggle powers you could disable by Sleeping them.

 

I've long thought that's how to make Dominators and Controllers more useful. They don't necessarily need to do more direct damage, just for players to face more encounters worth shutting enemy defense/resistance down. 

[Naraka]

14 hours ago, golstat2003 said:

 

As long as it's an optional setting that people can turn on sure. Leave the base game as is.

 

Nope.  It should literally be baked into the notoriety system at +3 or above.  If you'd want to opt out of rebalanced stronger foes, you turn your levels down.

 

12 hours ago, oedipus_tex said:

I've long thought that's how to make Dominators and Controllers more useful. They don't necessarily need to do more direct damage, just for players to face more encounters worth shutting enemy defense/resistance down. 

 

I also made that suggestion.  Giving enemies abilities that raised their HP, def, res, damage, ToHit, etc via toggle-like powers so that you'd want to shut them down or decently improve team efficiency by shutting the powers off would be how I'd make sleeps better.  I'd also rebalance toggle dropping as a mechanic so that things like Holds and Stuns only have a chance of dropping toggles (maybe add a suppression mechanic that lowers/halves the effectiveness of their toggle powers when under such mez) while Sleep *will* shut off those toggles.

[Solarverse]

2 hours ago, Naraka said:

 

Nope.  It should literally be baked into the notoriety system at +3 or above.  If you'd want to opt out of rebalanced stronger foes, you turn your levels down.

 

 

I also made that suggestion.  Giving enemies abilities that raised their HP, def, res, damage, ToHit, etc via toggle-like powers so that you'd want to shut them down or decently improve team efficiency by shutting the powers off would be how I'd make sleeps better.  I'd also rebalance toggle dropping as a mechanic so that things like Holds and Stuns only have a chance of dropping toggles (maybe add a suppression mechanic that lowers/halves the effectiveness of their toggle powers when under such mez) while Sleep *will* shut off those toggles.

Strangely enough, I took an Ice Dom in to Posi 2 just now and I was perplexed as to what was going on that my Sleep, Flash Freeze, was not knocking out toggles. Their bubbles were not knocked down a single time. I had it 3 slotted (only level 20 atm) with 2 Acc 1 Recharge. Not a single one of them dropped their toggles. I am wondering if Flash Freeze might be bugged, or if their bubbles now prevent sleeps? Something worth testing out because the experience was lacking. It made me regret picking up sleep on my Ice Dom.

[nihilii]

I love AoE sleeps. I solo most of the time, so it's basically an "I win" button for survivability against anything below AVs. I pick them up rarely is because there's so many other ways to do mitigation without taking a damage hit.

 

But let's put it this way. It's about opportunity cost. If any of my character got a TAoE sleep as an extra power pick and an extra 5 slots I didn't pay for, they would put that sleep in their tray and use it pretty much all the time.