NO TELLS PLEASE

[Hew]

Tells have a very specific advantage: When you throw a lfm out there, you can bring people into the team, first come first served. When whatever-goes-please-broadcast happens, you cannot accurately track the order in which requests come in, so you cannot accurately headcount as you invite.

PST is used for a bunch of very valid reasons, even for purposes of altruism and fairness. Moreover, blabbering all over broadcast is noisy _on everyone in the zone_, which is likely to get some people to just turn the damn channel off. This is certainly true for /z, and ive seen it true for broadcast as well. Food for thought. Your desire for broadcast is definitely impinging your wants over the preferences of others. 

 

People broadcast in the hive and rwz _because thats the only damn reason people go there_. There is no other more effective way to manage it, and everyone in the damn zone is there for a singular purpose.

[Blackbird71]

7 minutes ago, Hew said:

Tells have a very specific advantage: When you throw a lfm out there, you can bring people into the team, first come first served. When whatever-goes-please-broadcast happens, you cannot accurately track the order in which requests come in, so you cannot accurately headcount as you invite.

 

How can you not see the order of messages in the broadcast channel???

 

Frankly, tells are even worse for this, as you'll often get tells from people who aren't ready, who have to swap alts, etc., and trying to keep track of them until they're ready for the invite is a pain.  If they have to wait until they're in the zone to broadcast for an invite, then you know they're ready, so you can just send the invite and be done.

Edited August 4, 2021 by Blackbird71

[Hew]

4 minutes ago, Blackbird71 said:

How can you not see the order of messages in the broadcast channel???

When they are mixed with tells.

 

[Blackbird71]

Just now, Hew said:

When they are mixed with tells.

 

 

Then that's not an advantage of tells; it's a weakness of both.  Except that if they are mixed with tells (i.e., in the same chat tab), then you can still see the order of all the messages relative to each other.  This seems like a non-issue.

[Aurora_Girl]

2 hours ago, Oklahoman said:

I had planned to do this as a separate post, but it fits in nicely here, so... I feel your pain, @Nightwatch

 

So, I’m recruiting for an MSR the other night, and I have this exchange via tell with someone, who shall remain anonymous:

 

 

OK, so I was a bit of a jerk in my reply, but I’m also going to defend that here in a bit. Normally, I don’t reply to tells at all when recruiting for an MSR, but I had this short lived fantasy that maybe I was helping people understand the game better to respond with “broadcast in zone when you get here.” I get A LOT of tells for this event, despite specifically asking for NO TELLS.

 

The overall problem here is that in-game I can’t give you a detailed enough reason why I am not inviting you until you broadcast in zone. Now, you could just say, “I don’t need a reason, that’s a reasonable enough request so I will accommodate it.” That’d be cool. But maybe you are a bit like the person above and feel entitled to a more detailed explanation while I am trying to form my league. So, here goes...

 

BROADCASTING CONFIRMS YOU ARE IN THE ZONE

 

• You have to be in the zone to broadcast in that zone. You can’t broadcast to RWZ from, say, Atlas Park. So, broadcasting in a zone confirms you are currently in that zone.

• Rikti Warzone is limited to 50 players right now. At one point it was, for the most part, completely open and running 2 full MSRs at the same time in the same zone happened a lot. Now, a full league of 48 doesn’t leave a lot of extra space in the zone. While we can ask people who are not in the MSR to change zones, nothing requires them to do so - they could be AFK, obstinate, or just not looking at chat. Whatever the case, it is possible for the zone to be full before the league is full. When you broadcast for an invite, I know you are in the zone right now, ready to go.

• If I give a spot to a player who sent a tell and is out of zone, they may never be able to get into the zone - thus depriving someone who IS in the zone of getting to participate.

• It is easy to THINK you are in Rikti Warzone 1, when you are in fact in Rikti Warzone 2. Broadcasting helps confirm you are in the same place as the league.

 

BROADCASTING ALLOWS OTHER TEAM LEADERS TO INVITE YOU

 

• Putting together a league of 48 people can keep you pretty busy. You are probably advertising every minute or so, inviting people in, placing them in different teams, making sure you have a couple of level 50s on each team, trying to keep a mix of classes on each time, joining in the pre-game banter, etc. When you broadcast in zone, team leaders can help by inviting you to their team.

• There is a bug that has to do with alignment, and is not likely to get fixed anytime soon. If the league leader has someone on their team out of zone, the league leader may not be able to invite you. That’s another instance where it becomes important for a team leader to be able to help out.

• You may be on the league leaders gignore list. And, maybe in this case you shouldn’t be in the league anyway. But, if you broadcast and get an invite from a team leader who is NOT ignoring you, you get to participate in the raid so long as you can manage to be cool. Might even be able to get yourself off the league leaders gignore list, if that matters to you.

• There is a BlockingAccept bug where sometimes, even when everything else looks normal, you invite someone and get an error message like: “Could not Invite (player), BlockingAccept” and they have to be invited again. Here again, having the ability for Team Leaders to redundantly invite folks from broadcast is helpful.

• Much like the BlockingAccept bug, which you have to look for on your system tab, a league leader is also having to deal with players who are still on a team, or still in an AE session.

 

BROADCASTING KEEPS THE TELL CHANNEL OPEN FOR THE LEAGUE LEADER

• Another fun little bug in the game is that newly invited players may not get sidekicked up to level 49. Leaving the tell channel open allows the league leader to get important notifications like “I’m not showing on a team” or “I’m still showing as level 1” or “can I be on the same team as X” or any number of other matters that often come up pre-raid.

 

FOLLOWING INVITE DIRECTIONS PROVES YOU READ

 

• An MSR doesn’t require a whole lot of direction, but there are some differences in how each league leader runs it so it’s helpful to know you do, in fact, read instructions.

• Especially when you get into iTrial badge runs, reading chat is very important. If you aren’t following instructions in the LFG ad, how do we know you will follow instructions in the trial itself?

 

AND LASTLY, WHY THE HECK NOT?

 

• If you don’t know how to get to the RWZ, most leaders will put directions in their actual LFG ad. You can also use the HELP channel. Also, I’m sure a league leader would forgive a direct tell if you were just asking how to get to the RWZ, so long as you are not asking for an advance invitation.

• It’s not unreasonable for a team or league leader, regardless of event, to ask for tells - or ask for no tells at all - to get invited.

• It’s not unreasonable for a team or league leader, regardless of event, to ask you to broadcast for an invite. It’s not like I am saying solve this math problem and show your answer in the request channel. Though, that does give me an idea…

 

Look, there’s a reason why there are not a ton of people running leagues, much less 48 person leagues. You get a lot of hate, and it’s a fair bit of work. There are times I am recruiting for an hour, and other times it fills up on the first ad. You have to deal with interpersonal stuff sometimes, people who go AFK in the bowl, etc. Anything you can do to make my job easier makes me want to run these things more, so I appreciate that.

 

 

@Oklahoman is the Excelsior leader I aspire to be. 

[Triumphant]

3 hours ago, nihilii said:

No matter how sound your logic sounds to you, when you go out of your way to do things different than most people, it's reasonable to expect some people won't play nice with these arbitrary rules.

 

Given that it's easier to change your actions than the actions of everyone else, if *I* were to insist on a "no tell" policy, I'd just make a separate chat tab without tells, and use that one exclusively. So people could send me tells all they want, I just wouldn't be notified nor read them.

 

Your advice regarding making the extra tab is good (I do this myself) but abusive tells are a violation of the Homecoming Rules of conduct.  I think it is more reasonable (as you put it) to expect people to abide by those rules of conduct that they agreed to when they joined the game.

 

If they do not, it is reasonable for them to expect the mods to take punitive action against them.

[Apparition]

You're never going to make everyone happy as leader.  People will very rarely read your entire message on the LFG channel.

 

I led Rikti mothership raids for years on the Champion and Exalted servers prior to sunset, and now lead instanced Rikti mothership raids on the Torchbearer and Excelsior shards.  To me, instanced mothership raids are better than zone mothership raids in every single possible way.  I haven't done a zone mothership raid since September 2019, and will never do one again.  It would be like going back to driving a Chevy after nearly two years of driving an Audi, IMO.

 

I form instanced mothership raids from inside the instance itself.  There's nowhere for anyone else to go.  I just directly invite other people to the instance, no matter where they are in the game.  Here's how I advertise on the LFG channel and various global channels:

 

"Instanced MSR forming!  You must be level 35+ and have the Member of Vanguard badge.  100 million INF kill shot prize on the drop ship!  Send me a tell for an invite."

 

Yet, half the time, especially on Excelsior, I'll receive tells from people saying things like: "I'm OMW!" or "I'm in the RWZ and I don't see you." or "Why do I need to be level 35+/have the Member of Vanguard badge?  I've done it plenty of times at level two before/never needed the badge before."  Some people will try to argue with me over my running it instanced instead of in the zone, or argue that they don't really need the Member of Vanguard badge to join and that I'm just pulling that out of my butt.  (Yes, you really do need the badge.)  The best are those who try to argue with me that I'm "gatekeeping" by running the instanced MSR instead of the zone, which is why I made a character named "Gatekeeping App" as a joke.

 

Then sometimes after people join, they'll tell me that there were a lot of people in the RWZ looking for a mothership raid there.  I advertise that it's instanced, level 35+, requires the Member of Vanguard badge, and advertise that people need to send me a tell.  Nothing more that I can really do.

 

My point is, run whatever you feel like, in the way that you feel most comfortable doing so, and stick to your guns.  You won't make everyone happy, that's not possible.  Just shrug off people who are rude or obnoxious, and those who complain as water off your back.  As long as you're not being rude or obnoxious yourself and are doing what makes you happy, that's all that matters.

Edited August 4, 2021 by Apparition

[TheZag]

I almost tried to get apparition to come to a zone MSR once,  but then i didnt.

[GM Kaiju]

Watch the tone folks. I’ve removed several posts; keep it constructive please.

[UltraAlt]

4 hours ago, Nightwatch said:

Abused again

 

Standard is to send tells for invites.

You should expect it is going to happen and deal with it instead of getting frustrated about it.

 

[wjrasmussen]

4 hours ago, Snarky said:

I never put anyone on ignore.  

 

If i am put on ignore.  ?  What?  Some jerk doesnt want to talk to me?  Oh my.  What will I do?  

Same here.

[Nerio72]

Broadcast: "Here for GM team!"

<crickets>

Broadcast: Is {insert GM name here} still up?"

<crickets>

Tell: "Here for GM team"

<crickets>

Broadcast: "GM Blahdeblah down!"

 

So here's the thing, the frustration can go both ways. I get where you are coming from but you have to understand that other people have reasons they do stuff too. Maybe this guy was fed up trying to get invited to things and being ignored prior to this.

Also there are people that do not run this type of stuff all the time and maybe don't know the reasons behind it. A lot of regular content people ask for tells instead.

 

Maybe make a macro/bind explaining the reasons behind it if you want to "try" and educate people that don't know. Just be careful with the tone of it.

 

Enjoy!

[PeregrineFalcon]

Warning, my opinion incoming:

1. Thank you for leading in-game events like this. This is part of what makes this game fun.
2. Sometimes people are going to miss the line about tells. Even smart and well-intentioned people make mistakes sometimes.
3. However, your team, your rules. Don't bother even explaining yourself to the self-entitled folks who believe that the rules don't apply to them.
4. When you're being a leader you're going to get some bad along with the good. That's just an immutable law of the universe. But it's not as bad as you probably think. You lead these events a lot and how many people are an issue? 1 out of every 30 or 40? That's not a bad percentage. That means that most people are reasonable.

[Blackbird71]

2 hours ago, Apparition said:

Just shrug off people who are rude or obnoxious, and those who complain as water off your back.  

 

The way I figure it, these people are just self-selecting themselves to not be on the team, and therefore I don't have to deal with them.  In a way, it's ironically courteous of the jerks to identify themselves up front instead of waiting until further in the content to get weeded out.

[ZemX]

1 hour ago, UltraAlt said:

Standard is to send tells for invites.

 

No, here's the standard:

 

"If you ran into one jerk today, you ran into a jerk.  If everyone you ran into today was a jerk... you're the jerk."

 

Sixteen or more people had no problem joining this league and one person was a jerk about it.  That's all that happened.  You are right though... it's best to not let them upset you.  Because you're occasionally going to run into them no matter how well you think you're conducting yourself.  And that's because you aren't the problem.  They are.  If you are the problem, as noted above... everyone will let you know about it.

[Arctique]

I feel like something a lot of people are overlooking with the OP's post is how rude the person sending tells quickly became when they didn't get a response or invite.

It shouldn't matter if sending tells or broadcasting for invites to GMs/MSRs/etc is the norm or a better way of doing things, if a leader specifically requests one over the other, it is not okay to harass them over that choice. That does go both ways as well, if you're leading and saying "no tells" and somebody sends you a tell anyway, don't get rude or snippy with them over it. The matter of broadcasts or tells is completely irrelevant the moment one side responds rudely to the other. What the exchange should have looked like is this:

Leader: [lfg] "Forming X team in Y zone, broadcast in zone for invite, no tells please"

Player: [tell] "Room on X team?"

Leader: [tell] "There is still room, please come to Y zone and broadcast for an invite"
 

Then from there either the player can decide if they're still interested, and come to the zone and broadcast, or not. What doesn't matter is how people prefer to form their leagues via broadcasts or tells, what does matter is people being respectful towards each other, and that goes both way. If you sent a tell to a team leader who requested not to be sent tells, don't lash out and berate them for not inviting you. If you're a team leader who requested not to be sent tells and somebody sent one anyway, don't lash out and call them an idiot for not following your instructions. It's something that can be very easily handled in a polite and civil way, so whoever makes the conscious effort to approach it in a rude way is in the wrong.

[ForeverLaxx]

I've been on the other end of this, but for a Mothership Raid. One of my characters was in the zone prior to the event starting and the call came out to "Broadcast for invite to MSR" so that's what I did. 10 minutes go by and I still don't have an invite, so I broadcast a second time. Then a third. Eventually, the guy leading the event sends me a Tell and says "please leave the zone, I have others coming."

 

So what did I do? I stayed in the zone and blasted Rikti in the bowl in my fancy team of 1.

 

It's just the way some people are, I guess.

[ZemX]

36 minutes ago, ForeverLaxx said:

"please leave the zone, I have others coming."

 

Yeah, that was a raid leader breaking their own rules.  Not cool.  If they opened up invites in LFG they should have honored that.  They don't own the zone in any case.  If they wanted more control over the invites, they should have done it instanced.  Or at least gotten all their friends invited first before inviting the public.

[krj12]

Shrug.  I do something similar when forming ITFs, to please broadcast in zone.

For a couple reasons:

1.   Filters out people who don't have the badge, have no clue how to get the badge, and/or have no clue how to get to the zone.

2.   Prevents the problem with forming mixed villain/hero teams.  If someone on the team is out of zone, it prevents me from inviting villains actually in the zone.

 

Do most people follow my instructions?  No.  I'm guessing most people read the "LFM ITF", and stop there.

 

However, I don't let it outrage me as it apparently does to the OP.   My advice is ignore the tells and let it slide.  Not important enough to grow grey hairs over.

 

 

Edited August 4, 2021 by krj12

[Mezmera]

On Excelsior back when it was a bit more fresh I used to organize itrials and task forces a little more frequently.  This was back before the usual's like @Oklahoman, Cosmic Council and a few others had established their willingness to keep the ball rolling on these things for everyone. 

 

I get it, it can be like herding cats leading some of these things.  I do appreciate tells more so because I'm hearing the ping and seeing the yellow letters, if you want them to be zoned for that instant invite cool, but you can still just tell them with a short sweet "ouro" or "rwz".  There's lots to filter and parse if you're looking to play, so having the patience and understanding that some people want to be more forthright with wanting to play with you is a good character trait to develop, look on the bright side leading these things is growing you as well to be more adaptable. 

[SuperPlyx]

I think a lot of this could be helped with fixing the team/league invite system. It has a couple of major annoyances that is playing a big part in all this.

 

[Snarky]

I run Villains and Rogues mostly.  Being asked to get to the zone before the invite is so standard it is like getting mail in a white envelope.  

 

I frequently get asked to wait to be invited WHILE IN ZONE because it is a mixed team.

 

These snowflake heroes who are distressed they cannot get an invite the second they wave their foppish hand in the air for attention are hilarious.

[Dark Dove]

It feels like I've joined a thousand of your teams throughout the time HC has been up for hunting GM's, and they've all run really smoothly and at a time of day when there aren't a lot of people around, too. Thanks for dealing with all of the people who aren't respectful or feel entitled to have it their way while still running successful leagues and teams, you set them up like a pro and to me you're certainly a fixture that I appreciate on the server I play on. I know it doesn't cancel out you being treated poorly by some but I hope you know that your leadership is appreciated either way by the rest of us.

 

Thanks @Nightwatch

[Hyperstrike]

I've run hundreds of raids and events in my time in CoH (Mein Gott!  Has it been 13 years already?)
I prefer to call in REQUEST.
And I don't care which channel people use to ask for the invite.
I just find PMs to be easier to see in the Broadcast Spam that inevitably spawns around a growing raid group.

That's just me.
I'm kinda weird.  And I'm told my parents took turns dropping me on my head as a baby and young child...

[Blackbird71]

21 hours ago, nihilii said:

I have literally never seen a single instance of someone requesting "no tells" for hunting a Giant Monster. Like... not even *rarely*. Just plain *never*.

 

 

I was literally in game for less than 10 minutes this morning before I saw this pop up: