Sell me on "Leaves you drained of endurance" powers

[Techwright]

Starting all the way back in the original game, I gave up on high level powers that sound great at first but warn that they leave you totally drained of endurance.  A few went so far as to say endurance recovery would be a problem for a while.  Back then, experimenting with them, I found the penalty to be greater than the benefit.

 

But this is 2021, and we're a much more advanced-in-skill player base.  I find it bizarre that the powers still maintain such a strong penalty, so might I ask that someone show me the merits, and possibly the penalty work-arounds, for these powers?

 

If there are none, let me know that as well, and I'll raise the question of why the penalty hasn't been modified or eliminated then.

[wjrasmussen]

I'd say it you can't sell it to yourself, it isn't worth it for you.  Only you know your playstyle.

[arcane]

You just have to only use them when

 

(1) you know you can finish your business in a time limit, like a final fight or timed duel or

 

(2) in emergencies when the mitigation helps and you’re willing to pay attention to your buff bar for blinking after a couple of minutes to duck out of there for a few seconds

 

Other than that, they’re set mules or easily skipped. 
 

And of course, the ones that provide something you don’t already have are better than the ones that barely have an effect. Elude on an SR tank is perhaps the worst example I can think of. On the other hand, newer T9’s not only don’t drain you, but also they tend to actually give you what you need. Like resistance on Ice or Shield.

 

My EM/Nin Scrapper occasionally pops Retsu for the DDR.

Edited November 22, 2021 by arcane

[DoctorDitko]

C'mon, folks, remember the superhero gestalt!

Does this sound familiar?

 

"Only one chance! Musty use my Super-Kablaam-NOVA power, even if it kills me! This is for you, Mom!"

>KRAAKKAATHOOOOM!< *

"Whew! It worked! Now I need a nap!"

(Then your Tank brother gives you crap for being such a show-off!)

 

However imperfectly, these powers were designed to bring that trope into the game.

Now, they have been turned into powers you slip into your attack chain. Not the worst compromise the translation from pulp to pixels  has necessitated.

 

(Although.... We might invoke some of that spirit with a 1 time/day accolade that multiplied the effect of the next power you use.)

 

 

 

* Sound effect copyright 1999 Walt Simonson. All rites reversed.

 

[JnEricsonx]

1 hour ago, DoctorDitko said:

C'mon, folks, remember the superhero gestalt!

Does this sound familiar?

 

"Only one chance! Musty use my Super-Kablaam-NOVA power, even if it kills me! This is for you, Mom!"

>KRAAKKAATHOOOOM!< *

"Whew! It worked! Now I need a nap!"

(Then your Tank brother gives you crap for being such a show-off!)

 

However imperfectly, these powers were designed to bring that trope into the game.

Now, they have been turned into powers you slip into your attack chain. Not the worst compromise the translation from pulp to pixels  has necessitated.

 

(Although.... We might invoke some of that spirit with a 1 time/day accolade that multiplied the effect of the next power you use.)

 

 

 

* Sound effect copyright 1999 Walt Simonson. All rites reversed.

 

I met Walt at NYCC a while back!   He signed a poster of Beta Ray Bill being chased by one of the Power Pack kids(which was created by his wife)because he looks like a pony to her.

[Snarky]

As always….it depends.   Know your playstyle and what you will be using the power to do.  Remember the Space Shuttle was pretty much a glider on reentry.  Stupid stupid stupid but it (usually) worked fine

 

I have a strategy for using Unstoppable. The tier 9 from Invulnerability with a massive crash.  I can survive the crash in heavy mobs with AVs 95%+ of the time.  I do not run this build much….because the toughness is mostly unnecessary and therefore there is no reason to run it.  Except that I like it.  
 

The Crash from Willpower’s is noticeable but honestly nothing to worry over.  A little blip of bad news that quickly resolves itself with no action required.  Of course the power is not spectacular 

 

It will always depend on 1) need 2) strategy 3) build 4) competence in play.  

[Doomguide2005]

     As others have said it varies, but some things to note.  Does the power in question have an endurance recovery debuff?  If so what is it?  There are differing types of this sort of effect in a power.  The first sort you only lose a not insignificant chunk of end.  Examples: One with the Shield, Strength of Will, there's a -endurance of less than -100% but no -recovery.  This is easily dealt with.  Inspires (blue perhaps green) maybe use of a +recovery buff (empowerment, p2w).  Then you have some that take all your end (-100%) but also have -recovery.  They break into those you can overcome the debuff and those that practically speaking can not be overcome.  Force of Nature, for example is, -100% end and -100% recovery.  Use a blue inspiration and use or be under the effect of a recovery buff (empowerment buff, p2w, a teammates buff) that's +100% or greater.  Last we have powers like Elude with its -100% endurance  and -10,000% recovery debuff (games way of saying 'nope not happening')  I use to ride it out by using Eye of the Magus and Geas of the Kind Ones.  As the end crash was about to happen use Eye (adding defense and resistance to counter toggle drop) then at or right after use Geas.  Geas has a +800% recovery buff (among other things) so after the crash debuff drops (20 seconds) you'll be gaining end very rapidly.  Use enough blue inspiration to give yourself enough keep fighting, turning toggles on or whatever for that 20 seconds then Geas or other buffs (empowerment buff, p2w, Adrenaline Boost etc.) kick in and you're back in action.

 

Hope that helps.

[Peacemoon]

/Rad’s AoE hold is the best in the game, and it’s not even a control set. It’s worth the sacrifice of Endurance just to neutralise everything; just make sure you have a few blues for when you use it, if you find yourself below 50%.

 

Endurance penalties on activation are easier to manage because you know when it’s happening. Penalties on expiration of a buff are more tricky as you can lose track of when that will hit you.

[Greycat]

I actually like the idea of "powers with a cost." Crashing nukes and the like - something you have to think "is this going to be worth the risk" to use. The cost has to be worth what the power gives.

 

The problem with them currently is what they have to compete with. Why have a crashing (and I know...) Thunderous Blast when Ion Judgement does the same thing with no real cost and is available to everyone? Why have a T9 armor that does XYZ values when you can hit the same values, or really close, with IOs? Yes, granted, the blaster or corrupter gets them at 32, defender at 38, but... eh? (I mean, it makes a difference to *me* having them exemped down, but still.)

 

It's a much harder sale today as they sit - and making them "worth the cost" now just would equal even more power creep.

[Take One]

12 minutes ago, Greycat said:

Why have a crashing (and I know...) Thunderous Blast when Ion Judgement does the same thing with no real cost and is available to everyone? Why have a T9 armor that does XYZ values when you can hit the same values, or really close, with IOs? Yes, granted, the blaster or corrupter gets them at 32, defender at 38, but... eh? (I mean, it makes a difference to *me* having them exemped down, but still.)

 

Because the game doesn't start at 50+, and you still have 18/12 more lovely levels to go when you get your T9 at 32/38.

[Marshal_General]

I see any of the T9 powers with a crash as room in my build for a pool power.

[Clave Dark 5]

I was under the impression they'd de-crashed some of these powers, was I wrong?

[Snarky]

3 minutes ago, Clave Dark 5 said:

I was under the impression they'd de-crashed some of these powers, was I wrong?

blaster nukes got the crash removed long ago

[Clave Dark 5]

That would explain why I wasn't sure, I rarely play blasters. 

[The_Warpact]

I never take powers that could be construed as situational. "Need that lil bit of super duper power to beat that AV, take a T9!"

Even RoP, or incorporating Incarnate abilities to get you where you want on final builds. No build with what you have with those strengths and everything else is an added bonus if you so desire.

Because, on final builds you're not going to have T4s instantly unlocked. That being said im not going to incorporate something that I can only use every so often in the hopes that I plan it correctly. If that's the case I'll just pop some inspirations or demonic.

[Yomo Kimyata]

IMO it’s another victim of power creep.  
 

once, you used a T9 as an oh shit power or as a power of last resort.  The penalty was thematic, representing the extreme cost of being incredibly overpowered for a short period of time.  Now, you can be incredibly overpowered all the time, so the trade off is no longer worth it in modern game play.

[Aeroprism]

2 minutes ago, Yomo Kimyata said:

IMO it’s another victim of power creep.  
 

once, you used a T9 as an oh shit power or as a power of last resort.  The penalty was thematic, representing the extreme cost of being incredibly overpowered for a short period of time.  Now, you can be incredibly overpowered all the time, so the trade off is no longer worth it in modern game play.

 

Yes. This.  It's the elephant in the room.

 

Every other day, I see topics of people saying that support/control types become obsolete because blasters atomize everything in a room every 90 seconds or so.

 

Personally, I don't mind, I don't care.  Things need to be atomized anyways, might as well be efficient about it.

[UltraAlt]

12 hours ago, Techwright said:

But this is 2021, and we're a much more advanced-in-skill player base.  I find it bizarre that the powers still maintain such a strong penalty, so might I ask that someone show me the merits, and possibly the penalty work-arounds, for these powers?

 

Lack of being able to gain end means that you can't do damage for a certain about of time.

The gauge working  so that you can do huge spike damage but your dps over time is the same.

 

You can't "gain' end for a while, but you can pop blue chiclets all day long to get end back.

 

12 hours ago, Techwright said:

I'll raise the question of why the penalty hasn't been modified or eliminated then.

 

Because it is a balancing factor in the game mechanics.

 

it's kind of the same way that the game shouldn't have an "I WIN" button*.

 

*   Of course the work around for the "I WIN" button is that it just seems that way to you, but the other players are pushing the same button and it looks to them like they win. You know, kind of like the way Propel's SFX use to work. "DId you see me hit him with that Buick?!" "No man. You just threw a desk lamp at him, and it bounced off!"

[Peacemoon]

1 hour ago, Clave Dark 5 said:

That would explain why I wasn't sure, I rarely play blasters. 

This goes for Defenders and Corrupters too. Less damage of course, but our nukes can still wipe out all the minions and leave lieutenants barely alive.

 

I’d say the T9 are better than judgement, because you can slot them with procs and you can bring the recharge down really far.

[A Cat]

They should just make armor t9's give you a damage mitigation that your armor doesn't natively provide. So def armors give res, res armors give def. Maybe debuff resistance too. Then they would actually be worth activating. 

[UltraAlt]

11 hours ago, DoctorDitko said:

C'mon, folks, remember the superhero gestalt!

 

You're talking "character conception", Doc!

Those are four-letter words to some people!

Watch your manners, good sir!

 

There are plenty of players out there that will use self-destruct to avoid getting debt regardless of whether it is in character conception or not.

 

 

[Troo]

13 hours ago, Techwright said:

If there are none, let me know that as well, and I'll raise the question of why the penalty hasn't been modified or eliminated then.

 

Oh shit buttons should have oh shit consequences. Just my opinion but likely shared by some.

[MrAxe]

They're good if you can finish the fight in the time limit or have plenty of blues.

Edited November 22, 2021 by MrAxe

[Troo]

I should also mention that I've found that experience can lessen the occurrence of oh shit moments. Don't need that anymore.. respec.

 

"I WANT all powers to be valuable and unskippable" ignores the journey and that we might take something early on and not need it later. Choices. Consequences.

[srmalloy]

2 hours ago, Snarky said:

blaster nukes got the crash removed long ago

Which is an example of how a seemingly minor change can have significant side effects. Assault Rifle is one of the most lackluster attack sets, but it had the distinction of being the only Blaster primary with a crashless nuke. All the other sets made you have to consider what you'd do to mitigate all of your toggles dropping when you used your nuke. AR, you hosed down a spawn with Full Auto, Flamethrower the survivors, then moved on to the next spawn. Now it's just another T9, and not a particularly good one, with its narrow cone and target limit.