Officially Unofficial Weekly Discussion #38: Speed Runs

[SeraphimKensai]

Hey folks. This week we discuss Speed Runs of content (not to be confused with super speed as in movement).

 

We've all seen a taskforce forming in LFG calling for "speed" whether we enjoy speed runs or not. You may have joined them or inadvertently found yourself on a team that effectively seemed like a speed run.

 

How do you feel about speed runs of game content? Would you consider yourself a speed runner or not? If so, what are some times that you've managed? If you don't like speed runs, why? Do you speed run other games?

 

Personally I like speed runs, but when the whole team is onboard with the idea, as I don't like marginalizing someone else's fun. That said as I've mentioned I have a baby at home so my playtime gets pretty limited so if you give an hour to play and I can do an ITF, TinPex, and a Yin in an hour vs. just make progress on say a +4 ITF, chances are I'd rather do the speed run as I get reward merits (I typically don't have much need for XP or influence these days). I think rewards aside.of influence/xp should scale with difficulty level myself so there's a benefit to do harder difficulty similar to hard mode content.

 

Otherwise I first started doing speed runs of Mario Bros, Super Mario 3, and Fallout New Vegas of all games.

 

As always thanks and have a great day.

[UltraAlt]

5 minutes ago, SeraphimKensai said:

We've all seen a taskforce forming in LFG calling for "speed" whether we enjoy speed runs or not. You may have joined them or inadvertently found yourself on a team that effectively seemed like a speed run.

 

Yep. But not "effectively seemed" but was a speed run.

I'm not including TFs where there is enough TT (Team Teleport) on the team to teleport to every mission (or at least the ones in other zones). I don't consider using TT to determine if a TF is a speed TF or not.

 

Joined more than one that didn't even indicate that it was a speed run.

When questioned about the leader about it once runs started and I realized I was on a speed run, the leaders often say something to the effect of "All WTFs are speed runs".

 

I have had cases where I specifically asked before joining at TF if it was a speed run or not, was told it was not a speed run, then one player decides it is a speed run, runs from the door to the boss at the end of the mission,  and ATTs everyone to the boss at the end of the map.

When the leader was called on it, they didn't care because they had teamed with the other player before.

The player responsible for turning it into a speed run was the last player recruited to the team.

 

15 minutes ago, SeraphimKensai said:

How do you feel about speed runs of game content?

 

I find it extremely distasteful to consider speed runs to be the norm.

It's an elitist attitude.

End-gamers are just running TFs for the Merits. They don't care about an XP. They don't care that a player playing a character in the TFs level range is expecting to run a TF for the XP. They only care about what they want to get out of it.

And that is why the End-Gamers consider all WTF to be speed runs ... because the Merits are Doubled, so to them "obviously" all WTFs should be speed runs.

 

I don't play 50's so I never want to be on a speed run.

First, I want my character to earn XP because I'm playing the game (not an end-gamer).

Second, I enjoy running content at a difficulty level that is doable but a challenge. 

Third, I enjoy PUG'ing with new players are figuring out how to play the game. (I feel speed runs don't even allow a new player a chance to figure out what is going on).

 

25 minutes ago, SeraphimKensai said:

Would you consider yourself a speed runner or not?

 

Obviously, put me on the Anti-Speed run side.

 

25 minutes ago, SeraphimKensai said:

If you don't like speed runs, why?

 

SEE ABOVE

 

26 minutes ago, SeraphimKensai said:

Do you speed run other games?

 

No.

 

 

[Uun]

It depends on the TF. I prefer speed runs of MLTF, LRSF, Mortimer Kal, Dr. Kahn and Barracuda. Apex and Tin Mage are short regardless and I don't feel there's much you can skip in a speed run. I don't like speed runs of ITF and prefer +4 kill most. I'm on the fence with Aeon, LGTF and Market Crash. Manticore falls into the speed when possible category, as there are too many maps where you have to slog through 4 floors of Crey just to get the named boss.

[Clave Dark 5]

Not generally a fan unless maybe for one of the longer "too many missions long" ones; even still I find it boring.  Might as well farm, but that's even more boring ha ha.

[KC4800]

Speed runs, when you are soloing is fine. Try to beat your best time. When on a team, I find it hard to justify. There are some teammates that cannot survive being attacked by an entire spawn group, or don't have adequate stealth, or when you're facing enemies that rez themselves end up getting stuck dealing with that themselves, when the rest of the group moved on.

 

I just don't partake in team based speed runs. Hard pass for me.

[Spaghetti Betty]

I love speedrunning! It coincides with my favorite way to play the game - absolute chaos.

Now, I wouldn't consider myself a die-hard speedrunner that's always looking for the next best time, but flexing the skills is a nice source of dopamine.

 

Some of times I'm the proudest of are:

Classic ITF - 11:xx (I forgot how many seconds)

4* ITF - 36:xx

Synapse - 40ish minutes (that was a while ago)

4* ASF (Vanguard fight included) - 50ish minutes (I was drunk that night so don't remember exact time)

Tinpex - 21 minutes and some change combined

 

As a side note, I've gotten the KM ITF run down (yes, a KM, no mob skipping) to 31 minutes before. It's easy to keep times low if you're in the tanking seat!

[rolandgrey]

I don't mind speed runs for the most part.  They're a quick way to crank out some content to get some of the end rewards, which is fine when you're in the mood for it.

 

However...

 

I'm usually in the mood to get more XP.  I'm usually in the mood for more chances for loot drops.  I'm usually in the mood to chat with my teammates.

 

It's great that people have figured out the surefire ways to wipe out most of the enemies in the game, or have fine-tuned their builds to be near godlike against most, if not all, of the game's challenges.  However, I would like to play the game, not just crush its numbers.

[lemming]

To me, there are speed runs like getting an ITF down to less than 20 minutes (or 1/2 that), is just a different challenge.

Some of the TFs have similar missions repeated, or have a bunch of kill alls.  Those, you can then make the non-trudge missions into fast ones, is good.  Manticore is definitely one of those with a couple missions with quick goals, but a bunch of defeat alls.

 

I tend to go toward, least effort needed, but I'm usually good with fight thru to objectives.   I don't have a strong opinion

[lemming]

11 minutes ago, Spaghetti Betty said:

I love speedrunning! It coincides with my favorite way to play the game - absolute chaos.

Now, I wouldn't consider myself a die-hard speedrunner that's always looking for the next best time, but flexing the skills is a nice source of dopamine.

 

Some of times I'm the proudest of are:

Classic ITF - 11:xx (I forgot how many seconds)

4* ITF - 36:xx

Synapse - 40ish minutes (that was a while ago)

4* ASF (Vanguard fight included) - 50ish minutes (I was drunk that night so don't remember exact time)

Tinpex - 21 minutes and some change combined

 

As a side note, I've gotten the KM ITF run down (yes, a KM, no mob skipping) to 31 minutes before. It's easy to keep times low if you're in the tanking seat!

11:XX is the fastest I've been on as well.   Haven't actually tried a speed run in awhile.

Tinpex is another good candidate since it's run so much that any actual content from it has been seen.

 

Dr. Q I'm speedrunning every so often to break that 90 min solo time. 😉

[Neiska]

4 hours ago, SeraphimKensai said:

How do you feel about speed runs of game content?

 

It depends, but unless I am teamed with friends specifically for the purpose of speed-running it such as a Patron Arc for the Epic Pools, I generally dislike it.

 

All too often when speed running, nothing is explained. I have done ITFs that I have absolutely zero idea what the story is, who the big bad guy is, what their evil plot was or anything. I have played off and on shortly after HC went public, and I have a few 600+ veteran level characters. And there are still ITFs I have yet to ever do or experience because all too often it is "go-go-go," at least when around strangers or random teams. When among friends things are explained and our goal generally is to have fun or to help someone, not speed through as fast as possible. Now I typically only do ITFs, Hardmodes and the like with friends, not random players.

 

4 hours ago, SeraphimKensai said:

Would you consider yourself a speed runner or not?

 

No. Sometimes I do things fast, sometimes I slow it down and enjoy the décor, story, enemies and so on. It all depends, if I am by myself, with friends, or with random people. It also depends on the specific mission or activity too. But I more often "don't" speedrun than I "do" speedrun.

 

4 hours ago, SeraphimKensai said:

If you don't like speed runs, why?

 

A few reasons. Firstly, I generally dislike the whole "go-go-go" mentality. Even more so when it's automatically expected, or when team members complain it isn't fast enough. to my mind, if a team is going to be speed running, it should be advertised as such when forming it, not assumed to be the standard or norm. The norm speed should be restricted to the slowest member, but that is my mere opinion. If I join a team, and it heads off as fast as possible, if I am not feeling it I will leave.

 

Secondly, it comes off as elitist, or a flex which is typically something I take a dim view of. It fosters the entire mentality of "if you aren't doing X, Y, or Z you are a casual" or that anything that isn't kiss-your-elbow mathematically the best META then you are a poor player. You see this in the Discord at times, particularly in the AT discussion channels. Some vocal people tend to look down on you if you don't take something that is kiss-your-elbow best, or just want to try something new, experiment, or heaven forbid take something because its just fun or something you like the look of.

 

Some people take their CoH pixels, numbers, and speeds and builds "quite" seriously.

 

But this is hardly a problem only CoH has. ESO had similar community issues. In a since there were the "haves" and the "have not's." The Haves were busy people with things to do, they can and would blaze off through dungeons/missions at breakneck speed, often leaving the healer and tank trudging behind only to arrive at the fight nearly done, or even get locked out of it. This in turn led to a large shortage of Healers and Tanks where they are mandatory for high end content. WoW also had similar issues for awhile now, with Tanks specifically.

 

Thirdly, and perhaps most importantly to me, if everything is boiled down to just a DPS race, it waters down everything else not oriented around DPS. Things like Buffs, Debuffs, status effects, and more. Many ATs specialize in non-DPS roles. But if only DPS matters, then it can leave players whose focus isn't DPS feeling like hey aren't contributing or as meaningful. If all the team does is steamroll content as fast as possible, then what's the point of Controllers and the like?

 

I do want to add that this attitude also is not the "norm" but it can be quite frequent. And the more this kind of argument is presented, the more I resent it.

 

TLDR - I generally dislike it unless I am alone or teamed with friends where the planned activity is speed running.

 

Just my thoughts on Speed Running.

[liveevil2000]

I don't mind "Speed Runs" as long as I know that is the plan. When it's advertised as a Speedy run, then it's up to me to decide if I want that or not.

Usually if it's an arc I havent done yet, I like to enjoy it and not rip through every mission.

I enjoy the content and interacting with others on the team. I like to patiently wait until everyone is on the mission map before hitting the first group.

I also know the value of a speed run to some people who want to get the rewards a set of missions give quickly. Especially if they have done the missions countless times before.

 

I was tanking as part of a Synapse TF the other night with a bunch of first timers. It was 2 hours and 38 minutes of back and forth banter and pure fun. Even though I've done that TF dozens of times, I still enjoyed the experience of interacting with the other 7 players.

[High_Beam]

For me it comes two ways; some I do and some I don't.  I do not build characters to do speed runs (leading or participating); I build to play.  So they don't all have stealth and team teleport and the other tools of the trade.  However first an foremost is that if I haven't done the Task/Strike Force very often I will try to jump on a "normal run". 

 

Certain Task Forces are so burned in and so old and so plain that speed running is the way to go.  All of the original or remastered Task Forces are in this pile as well as OG Posi and Psyche in Flashback.  I am on Excelsior so for really good speed run fun, Blapperella runs a hell of an efficient speed run show with those.  Others where speed runs work are TinPex, Tarikoss, Morty Kal, all three tiers of Respec/Treespec, DFB, DiB - done so many times I know the story back and forth.

 

Others I like normal or would at least like to be able to do normal a few times.  Aeon is the worst when it comes to trying to get a normal run.  Forget trying to get the Becky badge.  I still haven't been able really enjoy that one (though still more coherent than Inception).  Sutter, Eden, Liberty and Khan; I get it but would love to actually enjoy the run a few times.  Villain side Strike Forces I simply havent done as much as Blue to where I know where the mob is gonna be and all that.

 

But there is a third option, the Kill All/Most ones.  Imperious is like that, Yin too and Market Crash.  All just good smashing fun and because they are short even when you kill all its still pretty quick.

[AboveTheChemist]

I am not a fan of speed running, or any kind of speeding through content, and won't voluntarily join any groups that advertise as such. I don't have any issue with folks that do like that pace, but I find much more enjoyment of the game at a slower pace.

[Yomo Kimyata]

I can't stand them.

 

The reason to do a speed run is to get something over as quickly as possible.  I'm presuming that is for the merit rewards, or whatever.  I'm not exactly a stop and smell the roses kind of entity, but this tells me that people aren't doing it because they are enjoying the experience, but because they want some sort of pixelated reward as quickly as humanly possible.

 

Most of the time, I don't care.  Live and let live.  If you want to play a game that you hate enough to zerg through it, um, good for you?  But when it affects others then I get worked up.  When was the last time you were able to get a slow Eden trial running?  For 8 merits because it is gameable.  I get it that "Blah blah blah I've done this thousands of times I want to do it as fast as possible" but I ask why in the world are you doing it thousands and one?  Why do you enjoy doing it at all?  The rewards are exceedingly simple to come by, so if you are suffering through a 45 minute ITF for a handful of merits and want to bitch about how your time is better spent, maybe you should spend it there?  I'll send you inf.

 

 

[arcane]

I like regular speed runs just fine. I don’t care for most of the folks that are actually trying to set records though. 

[Black Talon]

Very interesting topic, SeraphimKensai, and one that does tend to point toward a person's game perception and general style.  Ain't any such thing as right or wrong on this one, but it sure is nice when the mission-approach is advertised well and clear before anyone deigns to sign up.

 

For myself - not a fan.  Part of the reason I want to play the game is, as Yomo Kimata described, to take a moment to smell those roses; when on the Ernesto Hess TF (one of the most wonderfully artistic points in the game, IMHACWO), I want to take a couple of moments to glory in the drama of scrapping your archetypical James Bond-megalomaniac in a livid volcanic interior, with a mega-size 'Mech looming over the proceedings.  The original Devs took some serious time and effort in putting these settings together, and, when doing the virtual visit, I'd like to take a second to appreciate the depth of what I, and the rest of the team, are getting involved in.

 

People interested in the speed runs - have at 'er.  Again, just very appreciative as to when these arrangements are labeled as such upon being announced, and a clear, unambiguous choice can be made so that participants don't have a, "Well...meh," feeling when things reach their conclusion.

[Ruin Mage]

Speed runners killed my entire family.

 

[Sanguinesun]

I've been on "speed runs" that effectively took longer than a "normal" run.  Its to me these days just a marketing tool to get people to join run's thinking they'll go quicker than they actually may.

 

[macskull]

I've joined task forces that were advertised as "speedy" and then the leader decides to set difficulty to +4 "for more XP and inf" and that's when I bow out and hop on the next team trying to do it. There are plenty of "steamroll" or "kill most" task forces that are advertised as such, and if I'm trying to get inf/XP/drops I'll join one of those (or more likely, I'll just farm, it's faster anyways). What I can't do, though, is farm reward merits or other things (prismatic aether, D-syncs, etc.).

 

TL;DR: if I wanted XP and inf from defeats I would farm instead.

[Greycat]

I've done so every once in a while, but in general... no, I'm not a fan of speed runs, especially when it's decided "Oh, by the way..."

 

I get it (say) in the fourth "Find the glowie/kill the boss" mission 2/3 into an old TF, but that's just rushing the "oh god, this again" part. Otherwise I'd prefer running with a group taking their time and/or RPing.

[Yomo Kimyata]

2 hours ago, Shadeknight said:

Speed runners killed my entire family.

 

 

Well, your entire family except for you.

[UltraAlt]

6 hours ago, Yomo Kimyata said:

8 hours ago, Shadeknight said:

Speed runners killed my entire family.

 

 

Well, your entire family except for you.

 

Maybe.

Around here, you can never be so sure.

[Eldyem]

I don't actually have strong feelings about them; I think trying to do content as efficiently as possible with the tools you have (including random PUG members) is an enjoyable experience, but I'm also not particularly invested in completely skipping content such as running to Clamor in the Yin TF. I personally feel more "super" when I'm smashing through hordes of enemies mindlessly. In particular, TFs like Synapse just stop being fun if they're run at anything less than breakneck speed because its essentially the same content over and over for an hour.

That being said, I'm more likely to join anything advertised as a "speedy" version just because having one person who decides that 7 other people are "playing wrong" by not fully clearing out an outdoor map, or by starting a mission when they're spending 10 minutes updating their bio, or by using team teleporter (all three things that have happened to groups I'm in) just kills the vibe. I just do not want Synapse to take 3 hours.

I would personally love if we had more AVs or GMs (or even just EBs with better stats) that could "slow down" regular missions, but, so long as the strongest thing on 90% of given maps is a regular boss who is functionally identical to that other regular boss standing 10 feet away from him, I just don't see a reason to slow down my personal gameplay. I think this is a strength of Drowning in Blood, Mortimar Kal, and Summer Blockbuster content-design wise.

[tidge]

I enjoy speed runs, but I really enjoy speed runs the most when:

1. They are advertised as speed runs.
2. It is made clear to everyone playing what it takes to speed run.
3. They are played as speed runs.

(1) is on the organizer, but everyone who joins is free to ask. The organizer should not turn up difficulty, otherwise it will not be a speed run.

 

(2) Not everyone knows which missions may be defeat alls, nor will they know which missions are glowie (only) or which missions require only a single room clear

 

(3) I have seen MANY "speed runs" where the leader engages spawns that they don't need to engage. The best example I can think of are the missions in the Penny Yin TF. Especially in that first mission, not every group of Freaks needs to be engaged! I've been scolded on "Penny Yin Speed Runs" for skipping the unnecessary groups. Also, no complaining about someone clicking all the computers in the final mission ASAP on a "Penny Yin speed run". Generally: by this point everyone should know if the team can handle a quick respawn of Clamor.

 

I totally accept that not every player on a TF will be able to speed run all missions. For example, I'd rather that a player with an aggro aura NOT try to run through 5 floors of a map (or through a set of Oranbegan choke-points). On an 8-person TF, there is nothing wrong with some of the team engaging early spawns while others dash to the end of the map. Nobody thinks less of folks that adapt based on their character.

[rolandgrey]

Yeah, I gotta chime in on the whole "advertising" thing with my agreement.  All too often on Torchbearer, the assumption is that it's a speed run by default.  This was funny for a little while, but I'm not too keen that people actually assume it.  There are still a lot of people who haven't done much of the content of this game, either because they don't feel they're "up to speed" with other players, or they were just dragged from Point A to Point B and have no idea what was going on.

 

So, yeah, if people are advertising they're doing a speed run, then that's great.  If I'm in the mood to burn a half an hour or so (and usually much quicker, anyway), I might just be up for that.  However, speed run organizers have got to stop assuming that everybody already knows it's a speed run, and players joining events have got to stop assuming it will be a speed run.  It can be just as annoying to have one or two players rush a mission before most of the team has even arrived.