ppm Procs Per Minute (PPM) Information Guide

[Coyote]

What I'm curious about is Rain powers. I've read that "procs don't work well in Rains", but I wonder if the testing has been done on repeating proc activations. I'm not interested in repeated activations, but I do want to know if the initial cast of the power will trigger procs based on the power's Recharge, or if it's using the 10-second toggle rule even on the initial cast.

 

I plan on testing in Perez Park if I have time this weekend, with a couple of damage procs in Freezing Rain.... without Recharge, they should have a 90% chance to go off, and each should 1-shot the low-level critters there. So a critter would have a 1% chance to survive both. By hitting spawns small enough to cover the entire spawn, it should be possible to get a good idea if it' has a 90% activation chance, or not.

[SmalltalkJava]

2 hours ago, Coyote said:

What I'm curious about is Rain powers. I've read that "procs don't work well in Rains", but I wonder if the testing has been done on repeating proc activations. I'm not interested in repeated activations, but I do want to know if the initial cast of the power will trigger procs based on the power's Recharge, or if it's using the 10-second toggle rule even on the initial cast.

 

I plan on testing in Perez Park if I have time this weekend, with a couple of damage procs in Freezing Rain.... without Recharge, they should have a 90% chance to go off, and each should 1-shot the low-level critters there. So a critter would have a 1% chance to survive both. By hitting spawns small enough to cover the entire spawn, it should be possible to get a good idea if it' has a 90% activation chance, or not.

Excellent.   Rains are my overall favorite abilities in COH.   The testing so far seemed, from what I recall reading in the Defender proc monster thread, to be quite a let down.     But I still love them.  I can’t wait to see your results 

Edited August 15, 2019 by SmalltalkJava

[Vanden]

Has anyone tested the Panacea proc extensively? It's a chance for +Health and +Endurance, and it's supposed to be 3 PPM. However, the +Health and +End trigger separately. I'm wondering, does this mean that you get 3 procs of each effect per minute, or only 3 ppm total?

[Bopper]

20 minutes ago, Vanden said:

Has anyone tested the Panacea proc extensively? It's a chance for +Health and +Endurance, and it's supposed to be 3 PPM. However, the +Health and +End trigger separately. I'm wondering, does this mean that you get 3 procs of each effect per minute, or only 3 ppm total?

I have not done extensive testing, as I have always used it in Health. It triggers twice as often as the Performance Shifter proc (as expected, 1.5 ppm). As for triggering separately, can you clarify? I feel like I always notice them trigger right after each other. 

 

If there is a specific way you'd like me to test it (in a click power, or in Health), let me know and I'll monitor it next time I test.

[Vanden]

14 minutes ago, Bopper said:

I have not done extensive testing, as I have always used it in Health. It triggers twice as often as the Performance Shifter proc (as expected, 1.5 ppm). As for triggering separately, can you clarify? I feel like I always notice them trigger right after each other. 

 

If there is a specific way you'd like me to test it (in a click power, or in Health), let me know and I'll monitor it next time I test.

Just from watching the combat log you can see that the +End and +Health show up separate from each other. Sometimes you'll get both at once, but usually you'll get one and not the other. It seems to effectively be two separate procs in one enhancement. I'm just wondering if the stated 3 PPM is for both total, or each will trigger approximately 3 times a minute, like if you had two separate 3 PPM procs in an auto power.

Edited August 16, 2019 by Vanden

[Bopper]

1 hour ago, Vanden said:

Just from watching the combat log you can see that the +End and +Health show up separate from each other. Sometimes you'll get both at once, but usually you'll get one and not the other. It seems to effectively be two separate procs in one enhancement. I'm just wondering if the stated 3 PPM is for both total, or each will trigger approximately 3 times a minute, like if you had two separate 3 PPM procs in an auto power.

It looks like you're correct. I just looked at the characteristics of the Panacea proc and it does appear to be two Procs in one, each proc having 3 PPM. I haven't done enough research on auto powers, but I suspect every 10 seconds a proc check is done on yourself, and the probability to proc would be 3*10/60 = 0.50. So there is a 50% chance every 10 seconds that you will get one of the procs, 25% of the time you get no procs, and 25% of the time you get both procs.

 

Now, I could be wrong on parts of this. I thought I read in the past some formula that is used for the endurance procing, where it calculates a fixed rate for the endurance, in this case 3 PPM would result in the endurance proc'ing once every 20 seconds consistently (Performance Shifter would be once every 40 seconds). Again, I am going off memory of what I read awhile back, so just take this with a grain of salt. I will test it and hopefully have an answer by the end of the weekend.

 

Edit: Looks like I don't have to do the test as somebody already recently has (thanks @HelenCarnate). It does appear to act as a typical proc, every 10 seconds having a 50% chance to provide you with 7.5% of your max endurance and also a 50% chance to provide you with a heal. I hope that helps @Vanden. Thanks for bringing it up, I did not realize the +endurance and +heal worked as separate procs.

Edited August 16, 2019 by Bopper

[Bopper]

Completed some tests on toggles. Two things of interest came out of it.

1. Procs can only trigger when the power triggers/ticks (we knew that), and the Activation Period of the Proc's enhancement is 10 seconds (we also knew that). However, this does not mean a Proc must wait 10 seconds after triggering before Proc'ing again (Did you know that?.... I didn't know that). It appears the Proc has an opportunity to trigger once per 10 second window, where the opportunity is the first tick from the power within that window. I have updated the front page to describe this behavior. Look for the World of Confusion example in the Activation Period section. The TL;DR of this is basically, the Proc will AVERAGE one opportunity per 10 seconds, even though those opportunities will not necessarily be every 10 seconds. In the World of Confusion example, the gaps between Proc opportunities bounce between 12 seconds and 8 seconds, averaging 10 seconds.
2.  If you cast a toggle, let it Proc on the first tick, then de-toggle, you can re-toggle to Proc again on the first tick, even if it's within 10 seconds. This is more of a neat to know, as I have not noticed any obvious utility/exploit from doing this (although I know someone who could probably muster up something clever). Anyways, with World of Confusion, I was able to cast it once every 7 seconds and achieve Procs on each cast. Take that for what it's worth.

Edited August 17, 2019 by Bopper

[Maxzero]

2 hours ago, Bopper said:

Completed some tests on toggles. Two things of interest came out of it.

1. Procs can only trigger when the power triggers/ticks (we knew that), and the Activation Period of the Proc's enhancement is 10 seconds (we also knew that). However, this does not mean a Proc must wait 10 seconds after triggering before Proc'ing again (Did you know that?.... I didn't know that). It appears the Proc has an opportunity to trigger once per 10 second window, where the opportunity is the first tick from the power within that window. I have updated the front page to describe this behavior. Look for the World of Confusion example in the Activation Period section. The TL;DR of this is basically, the Proc will AVERAGE one opportunity per 10 seconds, even though those opportunities will not necessarily be every 10 seconds. In the World of Confusion example, the gaps between Proc opportunities bounce between 12 seconds and 8 seconds, averaging 10 seconds.
2.  If you cast a toggle, let it Proc on the first tick, then de-toggle, you can re-toggle to Proc again on the first tick, even if it's within 10 seconds. This is more of a neat to know, as I have not noticed any obvious utility/exploit from doing this (although I know someone who could probably muster up something clever). Anyways, with World of Confusion, I was able to cast it once every 7 seconds and achieve Procs on each cast. Take that for what it's worth.

 

Toggle toggling new meta.

 

I can imagine someone toggling a series of toggles as their DPS rotation.

[Redlynne]

At this point I have a new area of interest for how procs interact with powers.  Specifically ...

 

Tanker Secondary attack powers and Gauntlet for Taunt Radius.

 

Now, one of the things that stands out about Tankers is that their attack powers can be single target (and slot single target sets) but will still have an AoE component to them for Punchvoke via Gauntlet, their inherent power for the archetype.  And this is something that (the web archived) City of Data isn't really all that clear on for Tankers.

 

Let's take Martial Arts for Tankers, for example.

 

Martial Arts	Lvl	Acc	Dmg	Act	Int	Cast	Rch	End	Rng	Radius	Arc	Area
Thunder Kick	1	1.05	0.84	-	-	0.83s	3s	4.368	7ft	3ft	-	Sphere
Storm Kick	2	1.05	1.32	-	-	0.83s	6s	7.0044	7ft	6ft	-	Sphere
Cobra Strike	4	1.05	1.96	-	-	1.67s	10s	10.192	7ft	9ft	-	Sphere
Warrior's Provocation	10	1	-	-	-	1.67s	10s	-	70ft	15ft	-	Sphere
Crane Kick	16	1.05	1.96	-	-	1.67s	10s	10.192	7ft	9ft	-	Character
Focus Chi	20	1	-	-	-	1.17s	90s	5.2	-	-	-	Character
Crippling Axe Kick	28	1.05	2.12	-	-	1.6s	11s	11.024	7ft	10ft	-	Sphere
Dragon's Tail	35	1.05	1.18	-	-	1.5s	14s	13.52	-	8ft	-	Sphere
Eagles Claw	38	1.05	2.28	-	-	2.53s	12s	11.856	7ft	10ft	-	Sphere

 

Now, I've italicized the Radius column on the table to highlight exactly what I'm talking about here.  That Radius is the Taunt radius of the power when used against single targets, with the one difference from this being Warrior's Provocation (the actual "Taunt" power all Tankers get) and Dragon's Tail (which is natively a PBAoE leg sweep attack that does not require a $Target to use).

 

Everything else ... Thunder Kick, Storm Kick, Cobra Strike, Crane Kick, Crippling Axe Kick, Eagle's Claw ... is a single target melee attack that just so happens to (I'm presuming) spawn a pseudo-pet of a radius appropriate to the attack which then delivers the Taunt effect in an AoE centered on the $Target you've hit (assuming you actually hit them).

 

So what does Crippling Axe Kick have to say for itself with regards to this Taunt effect?  Well ...

 

Level	28
Type	Click
PvE damage scale	2.120000
Accuracy	1.05
Modes required
Modes disallowed	Disable_All
Range	7 feet
Activate period	-
Interrupt time	-
Cast time	1.6 seconds
Recharge time	11 seconds
Endurance cost	11.024
Attack types	Melee, Smashing
Effect area	Sphere
Radius	10 feet
Arc	-
Max targets hit	5
Entities affected	Foe
Entities autohit
Target	Foe
Target visibility	Line of Sight
Nofity Mobs	Always

 

• 13.6s Taunt (mag 4) (PvE)
  If target.HasTag?(Raid) and (@ToHitRoll + 0.2 < @ToHit)
• 13.6s Taunt (mag 4) (PvE)
  If not target.HasTag?(Raid) and (target.enttype == critter)
• 6s Taunt (mag 4) (10% chance) (PvP)

 

 

So for our purposes of determining how to calculate PPM procs for Tankers, this is remarkably unclear.  According to City of Data, the Taunt factor ought to be built into the power itself, but the actual execution of the power, game mechanically, almost certainly requires use of a pseudo-pet.

 

Here's how I think this works under the hood (simply because all of the alternatives wouldn't make sense or deliver the expected behavior).

 

 

 

Crippling Axe Kick is a single target melee attack (see Scrapper version if you need clarification on this point) and uses the Attack Types of Melee and Smashing.

The attack resolves as a single target attack against your $Target doing damage and applying the Immobilize effect to that single $Target.

So far so good/normal.

Crippling Axe Kick then spawns a pseudo-pet upon hitting the $Target that carries ONLY the Taunt effect in a 10ft radius sphere around the $Target and can hit a maximum of 5 $Targets (including presumably the "main" $Target you attacked) with the Taunt effect.

Single target Damage delivery, multi-target Taunt delivery.

 

But here's the sticking point.

Is this a case of AND for the Taunt effect ... or is it a case of ONLY for the Taunt effect?

 

Specifically ... if I slot Taunt enhancements (including set enhancements) into an attack like Crippling Axe Kick ... does the Taunt apply to the single target power resolution AND the pseudo-pet "Taunt carrier" AoE, in effect double dipping on Taunt effects against your designated $Target, plus any others beyond the "main" $Target only being affected by the spawned pseudo-pet ... or is it a case where the melee attack itself carries no Taunt effect(s) at all, leaving all of the Taunt effect functionality to be delivered ONLY by the pseudo-pet alone?

 

Here's why this matters.

 

 

 

For Tankers, every attack they've got has this (presumed) pseudo-pet spawning behavior baked into them and they can take Taunt enhancements, including Taunt set enhancements.

 

What can you obtain from Taunt sets that would be interesting in a PPM world?  Well ...

 

Perfect Zinger	Psionic damage	71.75	3.5 PPM
Triumphant Insult	Stun	Mag 1, 2 sec	2 PPM

 

Note that the wiki page for Triumphant Insult contains the following:

Quote

This Enhancement will only apply a 1.0 magnitude Disorient, which is not strong enough to stun Minions. It will only affect Underlings, and lasts for 3 seconds.

So just for the sake of clarity, I'm going to be assuming the following stats for Triumphant Insult instead:

 

Triumphant Insult

Stun

Mag 1 for 3 sec

2 PPM

 

Here's the wiki page for Perfect Zinger in case anyone wants to look that one up too.

 

 

 

Okay.

So if I were to slot a Perfect Zinger and a Triumphant Insult into Crippling Axe Kick and slot +0% Recharge into the power (just to keep things simple) against a single target $Target, I would expect the melee attack computation to yield the following results.  Note that I'm using the Arcanatime reported in the build planner for the cast time, NOT what City of Data has listed for the power.

 

PPM * ((BaseRecharge / ( 1 + RechargeBoost from Enhancements and Alpha / 100 )) + CastTime) / (60 * (0.25 + 0.75 * (1 + Radius * (11 * Arc + 540) / 30,000)))

 

3.5 * ((11 / ( 1 + 0 / 100 )) + 1.848) / (60 * (0.25 + 0.75 * (1 + 0 * (11 * 0 + 540) / 30,000))) = 74.95% chance to proc

2 * ((11 / ( 1 + 0 / 100 )) + 1.848) / (60 * (0.25 + 0.75 * (1 + 0 * (11 * 0 + 540) / 30,000))) = 42.83% chance to proc

 

But that's just the single target throughput mechanics.  What about the (pseudo-pet?) Target AoE spawned around the $Target that delivers ONLY Taunt effects?

 

3.5 * ((11 / ( 1 + 0 / 100 )) + 1.848) / (60 * (0.25 + 0.75 * (1 + 10 * (11 * 360 + 540) / 30,000))) = 35.27% chance to proc

2 * ((11 / ( 1 + 0 / 100 )) + 1.848) / (60 * (0.25 + 0.75 * (1 + 10 * (11 * 360 + 540) / 30,000))) = 20.15% chance to proc

 

3.5 PPM vs 1 Target: 1 - (1 - 0.3527)¹ = 35.27% chance of a single Perfect Zinger proc within 10 ft AoE of Gauntlet effect from Crippling Axe Kick

3.5 PPM vs 2 Targets: 1 - (1 - 0.3527)² = 58.10% chance of a single Perfect Zinger proc within 10 ft AoE of Gauntlet effect from Crippling Axe Kick

3.5 PPM vs 3 Targets: 1 - (1 - 0.3527)³ = 72.88% chance of a single Perfect Zinger proc within 10 ft AoE of Gauntlet effect from Crippling Axe Kick

3.5 PPM vs 4 Targets: 1 - (1 - 0.3527)⁴ = 82.44% chance of a single Perfect Zinger proc within 10 ft AoE of Gauntlet effect from Crippling Axe Kick

3.5 PPM vs 5 Targets: 1 - (1 - 0.3527)⁵ = 88.64% chance of a single Perfect Zinger proc within 10 ft AoE of Gauntlet effect from Crippling Axe Kick

 

2 PPM vs 1 Target: 1 - (1 - 0.2015)¹ = 20.15% chance of a single Triumphant Insult proc within 10 ft AoE of Gauntlet effect from Crippling Axe Kick

2 PPM vs 2 Targets: 1 - (1 - 0.2015)² = 36.24% chance of a single Triumphant Insult proc within 10 ft AoE of Gauntlet effect from Crippling Axe Kick

2 PPM vs 3 Targets: 1 - (1 - 0.2015)³ = 49.09% chance of a single Triumphant Insult proc within 10 ft AoE of Gauntlet effect from Crippling Axe Kick

2 PPM vs 4 Targets: 1 - (1 - 0.2015)⁴ = 59.35% chance of a single Triumphant Insult proc within 10 ft AoE of Gauntlet effect from Crippling Axe Kick

2 PPM vs 5 Targets: 1 - (1 - 0.2015)⁵ = 67.54% chance of a single Triumphant Insult proc within 10 ft AoE of Gauntlet effect from Crippling Axe Kick

 

 

 

So here's the easy test for this to check performance.

 

One ... does a Perfect Zinger ever proc against the attacked $Target more than once per hit?

If yes, then the proc chance is checked twice ... once on the melee hit, and once more on the Gauntlet AoE Taunt.

If no, then the proc chance is only checked once per attack ... only on the Gauntlet AoE Taunt but not on the melee hit.

 

The exact same ought to hold true for Triumphant Insult as well.

If yes, then the proc chance is checked twice ... once on the melee hit, and once more on the Gauntlet AoE Taunt ... which could stack the Stun MAG to 2 for 3 seconds.

If no, then the proc chance is only checked once per attack ... only on the Gauntlet AoE Taunt but not on the melee hit ... which would apply only a Stun MAG 1 for 3 seconds.

 

 

 

I suspect the performance profile for Taunt set procs in Tanker attacks will follow the "only on AoE and not on melee hit also" behavior pattern.  But the important thing to note here is that this kind of behavior pattern of Taunt enhancements in Tanker attacks could very well explain why Triumphant Insult is so incredibly weak as a proc.  It's basically only useful when you've chosen a powerset that deliver Stun MAG from powers as well, such as Martial Arts, Kinetic Melee and of course Oppressive Gloom in Dark Armor.

 

Here's why this matters.

Because depending on your Tanker secondary powerset, you can potentially make 2-3 attacks within the 3 second duration window in which a Triumphant Insult proc could be stacking +1 MAG onto a $Target for you ... and if each of those attacks has a Triumphant Insult proc slotted into it (I know, that's a lot of slots to do that) then it's possible to achieve a sort of "randomized poor man's AoE stun aura" around a Tanker that would could (briefly!) affect Minions just from double stacking the Stun procs randomly, and with the help of an aura like Oppressive Gloom that's enough to start stunning more than just Minions in the dogpile.

 

However, in combination with a powerset like Martial Arts of Kinetic Melee, use of Triumphant Insult in multiple attacks winds up adding a +1 MAG Stun chance to any other Stun attacks you might be using on your "main" $Target, allowing those Stun attacks to stack enough MAG to start disrupting Lieutenants and Bosses without necessarily needing to resort to the stacking of 2 Stun attack powers to achieve enough Stun MAG.  Again, the yield will be somewhat random, but the duration on the Triumphant Insult will last "long enough" to stack (briefly) with the Stun MAG delivered by other powers effects.

 

 

 

And as for Perfect Zinger?

Well, there's a reason why I made a Tanker with Perfect Zinger in every attack power.

And that reason has now been compounded by the research done in this PPM thread and in the Proc Monster threads in the Defender and Controller forums.

 

Now I've rebuilt that Tanker build to include Triumphant Insult AND Perfect Zinger in all FIVE of the single target attacks so as to stack with Stuns produced by 3 out of 5 of those attack powers.  That means an investment of 10 out of 67 total added slots in order to do that ... and I honestly think I can make it work ... because the Taunt procs turn every attack I'd be making into mini-Target AoEs that would wreck dogpiles of $Targets via the Chuck Lots Of Dice!! method of ruining people's days in PvE.

 

Don't worry, I'll get around to posting it once I do ALL THE MATH for all of those procs in all of those powers.  No, I'm not looking forward to doing all that math and writing it all up ... why do you ask?  But it's got to be done, if only to demonstrate that using the Taunt procs in Tanker attack powers winds up being a net benefit rather than a net negative overall.

 

So if you don't see me posting all that much in the next few days ... that's my excuse (and I'm sticking to it).

 

 

 

So ... can anyone help test the AND or ONLY behavior pattern for Taunt procs via Tanker single target melee attacks for me?  I'd like to at least get THAT part of things nailed down before I dive into the math head first (without a flashlight) on how those procs ought to play out on a Tanker build.  Hate to have to revise everything after doing all that work ... because, there's never time to do it right, but there's always time to do it over.

[Bopper]

2 hours ago, Redlynne said:

Crippling Axe Kick then spawns a pseudo-pet upon hitting the $Target that carries ONLY the Taunt effect in a 10ft radius sphere around the $Target and can hit a maximum of 5 $Targets (including presumably the "main" $Target you attacked) with the Taunt effect.

This is still something I wanted to test to determine if there is anything wonky with Tankers and the use of gauntlet. Since you brought it up, I did dig into my spreadsheets to see what is said about Tanker Melee.

 

First, it doesn't summon pseudopets. Each attack shows as a sphere attack, and it does the things City of Data shows (that you posted). Instead it seems there are some other hacks going on. The first thing I see is a field for Additional Power Factors which shows ProcsMainTargetOnly = True. So I suspect the Taunt AoE will not proc the other enemies. Luckily, this is very simple to test. Go to Rikti Monkey Island in PI and start hitting a monkey to see if any nearby get hit by a proc. If no, then that's our confirmation.

 

The other thing I now wonder about is if all of the Tanker's attacks have an AreaFactor that feeds the PPM calculations. I suspect not, as that would've been discovered by now, but also I recall Number Six mention that they had hacks for that too. I dont know where to begin to search the source code for that, so I would probably just test it. The results would be obvious.

[Redlynne]

9 hours ago, Bopper said:

The other thing I now wonder about is if all of the Tanker's attacks have an AreaFactor that feeds the PPM calculations. I suspect not, as that would've been discovered by now, but also I recall Number Six mention that they had hacks for that too. I dont know where to begin to search the source code for that, so I would probably just test it. The results would be obvious.

To be fair, I sincerely doubt anyone has done any regressive testing on the interaction of Tanker (single target) melee attacks and the (target AoE) Taunt aura they produce, meaning this area is largely unexplored territory.

 

However, I agree that the test results ought to start pointing towards answers of interpretation in relatively short order.  It's not like you'd need to spend an hour testing to get a large enough sample size to use.

 

9 hours ago, Bopper said:

First, it doesn't summon pseudopets.

Having had overnight to think (and sleep) on the problem, it almost certainly isn't a "true" pseudo-pet, simply in order to attribute the Threat generated to the Tanker instead of to the (implied) pseudo-pet.  So I think you're right on that score.  This would mean that you shouldn't be using the Toggle/Auto formula for PPM to figure chance to proc.

 

9 hours ago, Bopper said:

Each attack shows as a sphere attack, and it does the things City of Data shows (that you posted). Instead it seems there are some other hacks going on. The first thing I see is a field for Additional Power Factors which shows ProcsMainTargetOnly = True. So I suspect the Taunt AoE will not proc the other enemies.

But then how do these Target AoE attacks by Tankers only deliver damage to the single target hit?

 

9 hours ago, Bopper said:

Instead it seems there are some other hacks going on.

Obviously there has to be other hacks going on.  Now the challenge is to unravel exactly what those hacks are ... so as to use them to our advantage most effectively.

[Bopper]

39 minutes ago, Redlynne said:

But then how do these Target AoE attacks by Tankers only deliver damage to the single target hit?

That's one of the hacks I believe Number Six mentioned, where damage is suppressed to only the targeted critter.

 

I've thought about how to test it though.  Using CAK, with no recharge slotted, a purple proc would fire 90% of the time, but only 44% of the time if a 10 foot radius is used in the formula. That won't take long to determine. I would do this test in a cluster of enemies to determine also if there is any splash proc damage, which also won't take long to determine. If I use a 3.5 ppm Taunt proc, it would be 74% and 35%, respectively. 

 

I can probably do this test today. But before I do, let me know if there is anything else you want me to look at with this test (just in case if I missed something).

[Redlynne]

10 hours ago, Bopper said:

But before I do, let me know if there is anything else you want me to look at with this test (just in case if I missed something).

I'm thinking that some cross-comparison testing would be useful, just for control testing.

 

So I'm thinking put Triumphant Insult and Perfect Zinger into the Tanker Taunt in the secondary.  Probably a good idea to test with individual procs against Rikti Monkeys on Monkey Island first, partly to verify the PPM for each and the duration of the Triumphant Insult proc.  So Triumphant Insult alone first, then Perfect Zinger alone, then both procs together in the Taunt power.  This ought to give you baseline data to work with for these procs and verify that they can proc against multiple targets per use of power (I'm sure they can, but it's nice to verify this stuff).

 

The follow up to that would be to basically do the same thing with Crippling Axe Kick ... but also a triple matrix that adds a common Taunt IO to the mix.  The idea is to test the Taunt aura of Gauntlet so as to verify that slotting a Taunt IO into CAK will increase the duration of the Taunt effect as expected on everything in the AoE radius (I presume it will, but still a good idea to test this).  Then use CAK with a Triumphant Insult only to determine if it will apply a Stun MAG 1 to any Rikti Monkeys other than the $Target being hit using the Taunt aura on hit as a "carrier" for the proc to be an AoE on melee hit.  Repeat with Perfect Zinger to likewise determine if it will apply Psionic damage to any Rikti Monkeys other than the $Target being hit using the Taunt aura on a hit as a "carrier" for the proc to be an AoE on a melee hit.  And then repeat with both procs in CAK to see how they interact.  And finally put both procs and a Taunt IO in CAK to determine if the Taunt aura on hit is somehow programmed to only be buffed by Taunt duration enhancement but to NOT carry any proc effects through the Taunt AoE.

[Bopper]

Performed a test with a Tanker just now. Only looking at the single target melee attack, Crippling Axe Kick, which has an 11 second recharge and 1.6 second cast time.

 

Test 1: No recharge slotted, using a 4.5 PPM purple proc. If it uses a ST formula, the probability to proc is 90%. If it uses a 10 foot radius for an AreaFactor calculation, the probability to proc would be 44.5%

First thing I'm looking for is any procs via Gauntlet. I did 58 attacks, not once did a Proc occur on an enemy other than my target (expected).

Next thing I'm looking for is if the ST attack uses ST PPM formula, or if it has an Area Factor due to the Gauntlet. Of my 58 attacks, I had 52 procs. This suggests the ST formula is being used (expected).

 

Test 2: Used the taunt set damage proc Perfect Zinger. 

Of my 62 attacks, 51 had procs (82%). For a 3.5 PPM proc, I expected 73.5%. I was a bit lucky, but either way we can clearly confirm it did not use an Area Factor of greater than 1.

In terms of finding anything special with Tankers and its Gauntlet inherent, I see nothing that would have different PPM mechanics than expected. I'll revisit this if anyone does see something that I missed during my limited testing (didn't see procs hitting other targets, didn't see degradation in single target attack procs). 

Edited August 20, 2019 by Bopper

[Redlynne]

5 hours ago, Bopper said:

(didn't see procs hitting other targets, didn't see degradation in single target attack procs).

So the conclusion is that Taunt procs are coded to function as hitting only a single $Target while the Gauntlet aura is coded to apply Taunt duration ONLY to the Target AoE but carry no procs beyond the single $Target ... is that it?

[Bopper]

3 hours ago, Redlynne said:

So the conclusion is that Taunt procs are coded to function as hitting only a single $Target while the Gauntlet aura is coded to apply Taunt duration ONLY to the Target AoE but carry no procs beyond the single $Target ... is that it?

From what I've seen, the procs themselves have no special coding. The special coding seems to be in the Tanker Melee, itself. I'm working off of i24 files here, but from what I can tell, the difference between Scrapper's Crippling Axe Kick and the Tanker version is that the Tanker version has some additional fields marked TRUE, whereas the Scrapper does not have anything in those fields. So again, the Tanker Melee does show up as a sphere attack (radius 10 feet) that hits up to 5. However, the fields that the Tanker has marked TRUE are "AnimMainTargetOnly" and "ProcMainTargetOnly".

 

So again, I don't know exactly how this is worked out in the source code, but I would strongly suspect these special fields are the reason why the damage and proc damage only hits the single target. I also poked around the i25 source code and haven't seen anything special being done for PPM or AreaFactor, so I can't explain how any of this truly works (if I dig harder, maybe I could find something...but it's a lot of files). As for why the taunt bypasses this, I don't know. But for the purpose of Procs, I don't think there's much else that needs to be determined that my test didn't show already. 

 

As for researching taunt duration and the mechanics of Gauntlet, I don't thing that is within the scope of a Proc Guide. It is worth bringing up in General Discussion, for sure. I just don't have the experience to do that sort of research. From what Number Six had mentioned a few pages back, the entire thing is a hack job. Single target attacks get a taunt aura, but cones don't. I don't recall PBAoE attacks. Beyond that, I just don't know. I personally haven't played a tanker in almost a decade.

 

With all that being said, if you have a very specific request (explicit, but simple), I can take a look for you. It would need to be something that is somewhat obvious. If it requires me to run huge samples, I won't be able to help as HeroStats is no longer working for me on Beta Server and I have to manually read the chat log to count up these numbers (days of 800 samples are over).

[macskull]

On 6/27/2019 at 4:01 AM, Bopper said:

List of PPM values for Procs:

The PPM for each Proc can be found HERE although this information has not yet been vetted for Homecoming servers as of yet.

Just went back and re-read the OP and discovered my PPM spreadsheet is linked here (fine with me!). As far as the PPM being vetted for Homecoming servers, I got my numbers by checking the information pop-ups for each of the procs in question. I may update my spreadsheet with a PPM calculator that can handle more than just single-target powers as the calculator that's linked in my spreadsheet is limited to only those.

[Bopper]

19 minutes ago, macskull said:

Just went back and re-read the OP and discovered my PPM spreadsheet is linked here (fine with me!). As far as the PPM being vetted for Homecoming servers, I got my numbers by checking the information pop-ups for each of the procs in question. I may update my spreadsheet with a PPM calculator that can handle more than just single-target powers as the calculator that's linked in my spreadsheet is limited to only those.

Thanks, I found you referenced on reddit, wasn't sure if you existed on these forums. I'll attribute you appropriately. If you like, I can try to vet your PPM numbers and let you know of any discrepancies that exist.

[macskull]

12 minutes ago, Bopper said:

Thanks, I found you referenced on reddit, wasn't sure if you existed on these forums. I'll attribute you appropriately. If you like, I can try to vet your PPM numbers and let you know of any discrepancies that exist.

Thanks for the shout out. I'm reasonably sure the PPM values I have listed are correct as it seems like the values listed on the Wiki were current as of the game's shutdown and the values haven't been tweaked since. Most of my leg work in putting that list together came from checking numbers on sets that were added post-shutdown or weren't on the Wiki's list, and then spot-checking the ones that were. I am missing some proc effects just because the way some of the procs work grants their bonus (+hp, +end, and the like) in a way that isn't easily viewable in-game.

[Bopper]

11 minutes ago, macskull said:

Thanks for the shout out. I'm reasonably sure the PPM values I have listed are correct as it seems like the values listed on the Wiki were current as of the game's shutdown and the values haven't been tweaked since. Most of my leg work in putting that list together came from checking numbers on sets that were added post-shutdown or weren't on the Wiki's list, and then spot-checking the ones that were. I am missing some proc effects just because the way some of the procs work grants their bonus (+hp, +end, and the like) in a way that isn't easily viewable in-game.

I can probably help you with Proc effects. Probably not tonight (Happy Hour night!), but I can dive through my spreadsheets and give you some updates to effects tomorrow.

 

Some examples that I can think of, the Anhillation -res proc is 10 seconds of -12.5% resistance (unresistable, unlike Achilles Heel). Also, I believe the duration of the holds for Devastation and Lockdown are 8 seconds, not 6.

 

I'll PM you if I see any discrepancies, and please feel free to incorporate any of the formulas on the front page for your calculator. Those have been confirmed via testing and reviewing source code.

[macskull]

25 minutes ago, Bopper said:

I can probably help you with Proc effects. Probably not tonight (Happy Hour night!), but I can dive through my spreadsheets and give you some updates to effects tomorrow.

 

Some examples that I can think of, the Anhillation -res proc is 10 seconds of -12.5% resistance (unresistable, unlike Achilles Heel). Also, I believe the duration of the holds for Devastation and Lockdown are 8 seconds, not 6.

 

I'll PM you if I see any discrepancies, and please feel free to incorporate any of the formulas on the front page for your calculator. Those have been confirmed via testing and reviewing source code.

The values for procs in the spreadsheet are PvP-specific, as that was its original intended audience, so some things like mez durations may be different.

[Bopper]

17 minutes ago, macskull said:

The values for procs in the spreadsheet are PvP-specific, as that was its original intended audience, so some things like mez durations may be different.

Ahh, good to know. And I believe I noticed that with one of the damage procs. Thanks for the clarity. Either way, we will just be concerned with the PPM values in this context, as that is the desired reference for doing PPM calculations.

[Justisaur]

There seems to be a lot of confusion on Interface procs, I was wondering if anyone can tell if they might be affected by PPM? If so what their PPM is?

[Bopper]

4 hours ago, Justisaur said:

There seems to be a lot of confusion on Interface procs, I was wondering if anyone can tell if they might be affected by PPM? If so what their PPM is?

I don't think it uses PPM. I thought I read each tick of the DoT has a probability to hit (25% or 75% depending on which T4 you pick). If a DoT tick misses, the DoT dies. If  I can find where I read that, I'll link it. Until then, take my words with a grain of salt, as I have not tested it.

 

Update. Here is the link 

 

Edited August 21, 2019 by Bopper

[Sovera]

An off-shot question. A Force Feedback: chance for recharge, does it work on KB/KD immune targets? Does it only go off the animation happen? Does it happen if the KB/KD chance happen even if the target's immunity then prevents the animation from happening?