Power pools adjustments

[Haijinx]

8 minutes ago, Outrider_01 said:

Have fun with full 360 degree on all axis with long rang and second if not first travel speed if SS has no elevation problems.  You are gonna fall every port and its gonna look like one of those heart beat monitors.

 

Now if the hover was equal to speed in flight for a short duration it might make it easier.

The falling was the plan, yeah

 

I guess you could put a jetpack on if you want to regain TP's use as a long distance travel power. 

 

I just want to use it as a Telenuke without the nuke.  

[Alchemystic]

I believe that there should be some changes to power pools, but only the travel ones.

 

With each origin power pools proposing a sort of 'hybrid' travel power that makes conventional travel powers redundant, there should be changes to keep them viable.

 

Making Teleport into a reverse version of Mystic Flight works well, making the 'Hover' element a toggle.

 

Merging Flight and Afterburner works rather well too. Which leaves room for one more power, maybe some sort of wind power that knocks back.

 

Super Speed could grant a power that makes you intangible for a short while.

 

Super jumping could also grant a power that acts like a double jump (like those funny jetpack powers).

Edited January 14, 2020 by Tyrannical

[Lines]

Teleport as a travel power could do with a look at, I think. I wonder if it would work as a toggle instead of an active press?

[Haijinx]

11 minutes ago, Tyrannical said:

I believe that there should be some changes to power pools, but only the travel ones.

 

With each origin power pools proposing a sort of 'hybrid' travel power that makes convenient travel powers redundant, there should be changes to keep them viable.

 

Making Teleport into a reverse version of Mystic Flight works well, making the 'Hover' element a toggle.

 

Merging Flight and Afterburner works rather well too.

 

Super Speed could grant a power that makes you intangible for a short while.

 

Super jumping could also grant a power that acts like a double jump (like those funny jetpack powers).

I like that teleport solution

[Zepp]

My current main has Hover and TP, would work great if it weren't for the TP hover tar...

Either eliminating the speed penalty or adding a "Cancel on Movement" proviso would fix the issue...

My specific (though not personal) fix for TP would be the following:

On 9/21/2019 at 11:45 PM, Zepp said:

 

Alright, I went through the thread and am trying to get some of the best ideas for the rework:

T₁; Recall: Can target enemy (range 200) or friend (range 20,000), brings target to caster, never causes aggro. Cast time around 3s (no interrupt) and recharge around 4s. [Cast time and Recharge needs more discourse]

On 9/21/2019 at 1:08 AM, Replacement said:

I agree with whoever said to combine recall friend and teleport foe into one power with a fast cast time (same as regular teleport) and a low cooldown. 

 

If no one said that, then I did.

T₂: Tactical Teleport: Short range 30' Teleport with a 30s unstackable defense buff (similar level to combat jumping) and Teleport resistance.

On 9/15/2019 at 12:39 PM, Zepp said:

There have been several types of ideas that have come up over the years. One is a simple short-range TP with minimal animation time, short range, and low endurance cost. There is also the possibility of adding a 15-30s non-stacking defensive buff to the power to give it similar stats to combat jumping. A different way to approach this would be to not have a TP power per se, but a displacement toggle. This would mean that you are constantly teleporting and thus making yourself more difficult to hit. This would include a minor universal movement bonus, but it would not give you the Nightcrawler feel.

T₃: Teleport: 3-5 endurance per TP, 6s hover after TP cancelled by movement.

On 9/13/2019 at 8:10 PM, GM Sijin said:

Counter suggestion (though probably much more difficult to implement):

Teleport grants you ~6 seconds of hover after the teleport. However, if you activate any movement it's cancelled immediately.

T₄: Long-Range Teleport: Basically no change.

T₅: Teleport Assault: Chain attack.

On 9/16/2019 at 12:56 PM, Cooltastic said:

NEW POWER: Teleport Assault: This is a PBAoE attack. No target needed. This ability both phases you out(while immobilizing you) for the duration while damaging up to 10 Foes in a Large Area around you. It has a long cooldown(Maybe 2mins) and a duration of about 3.5 seconds. The FX would be a normal teleport FX around your character while your character vanishes completely until reappearing in the same spot. Effected Enemies will be hit with large puffs of teleport smoke FX repeatedly for the duration, they just need to be sporadic in nature to make it look as if your teleporting around to each one.

 

I think this sounds reasonable, and it allows people to continue to have access to all current powers with the same current requirements. It also addresses both the need for a defensive and more clearly offensive power. It is not overpowered, but each power could be reasonably desirable.

As always, I'm open for discussion about these ideas, but I would definitely be happy if something like this was the end result of the rework.

 

 

 

Edited January 14, 2020 by Zepp

[Replacement]

It's almost unfair how easy it is for Zepp to summon me for Likes.

[Llewellyn Blackwell]

Over all I do feel the idea is just pure want gimme. However there is among them one of the travel pools that is pure utility for the most part and imo deserving of a real face lift. Teleport. I think considering we now have examples of powers that can be buff or attack like the one in sorcery or Medicine, that the idea of merging teleport foe and recall friend has merit. The fact taht recall friend isa  pure utility power and on that only has utility with actual team mates since we cant use it on hostages etc, makes me feel merging it with the rarely taken teleport foe wouldnt be horrific power creep.

 

Now I also feel its other powers need a serious modernization. Long Range Teleport was a good effort but not enough imo. I feel that team teleport should be converted to team transport and made the final power, I also think since we need a new 5th power adding ATT on a faster more functional recharge as part of a pool is long overdue. Again this isa  pure team utility power, It does not add to combat power directly and I feel that those burning powers on helping allies should not be left behind in the discussion of what to buff and why.

[HelenCarnate]

As someone who always takes those powers to cap out defense I am against this.  It is a trade off and a fair one.

[Bill Z Bubba]

I built a speedster last night. PLed her to 32. She attacks with Shadow Maul, Flurry and Whirlwind.

 

Two of those are powers that are vastly considered to be complete wastes but for the concept it's pretty dang cool.

 

For giggles, I had another concept character only use boxing, kick and crosspunch.

 

I'd prefer to not see changes that would stop me from being able to do these silly things.

[Shred Monkey]

11 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

I'd prefer to not see changes that would stop me from being able to do these silly things.

I agree, but with something a level deeper.  I don't like the idea of changing anything so much that we actually lose something from the original game.  (ref. "the cottage rule")  But if you want to make a new power pool that has a few duplicate powers and some new ones, that sounds great.

 

[Lines]

28 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

I built a speedster last night. PLed her to 32. She attacks with Shadow Maul, Flurry and Whirlwind.

 

Two of those are powers that are vastly considered to be complete wastes but for the concept it's pretty dang cool.

You're a brave man. I have a speedster but I just cannot bring myself to pick Whirlwind.

[Lost Ninja]

9 hours ago, Lines said:

My knee jerk reaction was "god, I really don't need more free power slots that I wouldn't know what to do with."

 

I echo folks wishing the attacks were a bit juicier. I'm taking the Force of Will pool thematically on a stalker and Wall of Force is underwhelming. I've tried it with a complete set of Positron's blast and also loaded with four damage procs, but it doesn't have much kick to it either way.

The ranged knockdown in Sorcery is quite good, as is Aerial Superiority from Flight. Both of which I have taken and slotted as I would normal powers. Ranged Knock Down on a Gravity/Rad controller (it's better than propel because it doesn't splash it's knock down), and Aerial Superiority on DM/Regen as it adds and extra damaging attack to DM which while control heavy never seemed to have enough attacks.

 

I also semi frequently take the Heal Self from Medicine partly for the healing but mostly for a set of Preventative Medicine (I don't like fulling slotting Health), on characters that don't have an actual "Healing" power. 

Edited January 14, 2020 by Lost Ninja

[quixoteprog]

I agree with the OP in one sense, that Power pools are boring, and it would be nice if they offered something flavor wise to the game. All they currently offer are travel power, attacks or combat oriented buffs/debuffs. That is mainly because other than hunting badges there is almost nothing to do in the game besides fight stuff.

 

The problem with his solution, as many have pointed out, is that the effective result of all his suggestions would be to mostly just raise the combat power of players. Something we certainly DON'T need in a game that is already pretty easy.

 

It would be nice to have some non-combat centered powers, but to do that you would first need some kind of compelling non-combat related activities for them to effect. Travel is the most obvious one and that is already covered by the existing powers.

 

It would be nice to add some "sensory" powers, like the P2W vendor power that lets you uncover parts of the map, but also applies to clicky objectives and hidden enemies.

 

That is about the only non-combat related activity I can think of that might be useful in this game.

[biostem]

3 hours ago, quixoteprog said:

It would be nice to add some "sensory" powers, like the P2W vendor power that lets you uncover parts of the map, but also applies to clicky objectives and hidden enemies.

 

That is about the only non-combat related activity I can think of that might be useful in this game.

The problem, as you touched on, is how do you reward non-combat activities?  Theoretically, for instance, the stealth powers "reward" you by being able to sneak past enemies and complete missions faster.  The medicine power pool provides heals and buffs, which are really only attractive to ATs/sets that don't already have access to them.  Leadership provides buffs to your teammates and yourself.  Due to the nature of how defensive toggles can stack, tough and weave become really attractive to those wishing to push the envelope/maximize their defenses.  What would be interesting, (although likely to involve a lot of work), would be to add things like a surrender mechanic, where through the use of various presence-like powers, you could get enemies to give up without a fight and/or to disclose leads to other quests or tips to where other enemies/missions may be.  Another approach to take would be to have abilities that allow you to confiscate enemy weapons to grant yourself temporary powers, disguises, and so on...

[Lines]

3 hours ago, quixoteprog said:

It would be nice to add some "sensory" powers, like the P2W vendor power that lets you uncover parts of the map, but also applies to clicky objectives and hidden enemies.

 

That is about the only non-combat related activity I can think of that might be useful in this game.

There was a fairly recent idea for a danger sense pool which could have some powers that affect what can be seen on the map. It could throw in some mild defence autos (which aren't present in pool powers), so it isn't just a load of throwaway powers and maybe a mez resist at tier 5. Maybe that's a touch unbalanced...

 

The origin pool powers have a nice shape to them so far.

[Greycat]

19 hours ago, Tyrannical said:

 

Making Teleport into a reverse version of Mystic Flight works well, making the 'Hover' element a toggle.

 

Merging Flight and Afterburner works rather well too. Which leaves room for one more power, maybe some sort of wind power that knocks back.

I just remember (a) the decidedly (and deservedly) negative feedback when some Epic (or was it just patron?) pools were tweaked after the fact back on live - and some of those changes were rolled back, and (b) how badly some things broke when the pools were updated on test (again on live.) If I remember right, it broke Kheldians and Dominators *badly.*  Admitteldy both have slightly odd mechanics (both having essentially "click inherents," with form shifting and with Domination,) and I think that was the issue in general.

 

I would not mind seeing TP getting the "reverse Mystic Flight" treatment. That would be useful.

 

Flight getting a wind power? I think Wind would be broken. >.>

[dangeraaron10]

I agree the proposed changes in the OP are quite a bit overkill.

 

But I'd be lying if I said I wouldn't appreciate Tough not requiring a prerequisite and Weave only requiring one (ideally that being Tough).  It's always a bummer to get a power-pick level and have to use it on Boxing or Kick if you never intend to even put either power on your tray.  They aren't super useful by themselves but are good for slotting, and you're hard pressed to find a build that doesn't use them.  Weave's mostly popular for recharge, so defense heavy sets can easily skip it.  Tough on its own isn't that outstanding.  I do think that they are perfectly fine as toggles.  

 

I know a couple people here are against that, and we're much less tight on power picks these days with Inherent Fitness, but I think it just feels bad to have to pick a pool power that's useless to you to pick up some toggles to slot for recharge.  Am I seriously gunning for it?  Not all that much, I've already built around Kick in order to reach Weave (for my Rad Armor Brute that has no DEF toggles of his own).  There should be real choices to make in people's builds but... picking Boxing or Kick just sucks.  

 

Edit:  As for Combat Jumping... it's immediately available for those that want it, it's own defense bonus is pretty negligible but it costs virtually nothing to toggle it and, again, the holy global recharge.  I usually pick this up if I'm not taking Hover.  I really don't do deep dives into Power Pools since I usually invest heavily into the Primary, Secondary, and Ancillary pools.  Pairs up rather nicely with Super Speed, though, so I hear.  

Edited January 15, 2020 by dangeraaron10

[Greycat]

I've actualy had characters go into fighting specifically for the attacks, not tough/weave.

 

Personally, I like things having costs. Tough/weave can be quite powerful - forcing a pick of something else (which, really, just means you get to put slots elsewhere if you're not going to use it) to get there is perfectly fair to me.  If tough or weave were available with no prerequisite, I'd want to see them nerfed somehow.

 

Then again, I thought losing T9 crashes was a shame. *shrug*

[Sakura Tenshi]

I'll restate that I don't mind getting some powerpool picks having costs, I just want to actually feel excited about picking up kick and jab as much as I would be for tough and weave, or that after getting those I'd actually feel picking up cross punch would be worth it in exchange for one of my primary and secondary powers or an ancillary power.

[Outrider_01]

 

34 minutes ago, Sakura Tenshi said:

I'll restate that I don't mind getting some powerpool picks having costs, I just want to actually feel excited about picking up kick and jab as much as I would be for tough and weave, or that after getting those I'd actually feel picking up cross punch would be worth it in exchange for one of my primary and secondary powers or an ancillary power.

Thats a personal issue.  It isn't required at all to get the powers, but you want the more useful one like its manditory.  Complaint is similar to when Fitness was a a power pool, to many thought they had to give up a lot 2 picks for Stamina yet in a way both swift and jump are useful; they just didn't see it and considered Stamina to be the only one.  Picking all your primary/secondary means you give up power picks or power picks for the primary/secondary.

 

Boxng is subpar, but so is a lot of other first tier powers.  It could use a buff, but not the option to skip.  The buffing from picking more of the melee powers is a joke, even brawl gets a bonus.  Tough and Weave should buff the attacks.

[Sakura Tenshi]

5 minutes ago, Outrider_01 said:

 

Thats a personal issue.  It isn't required at all to get the powers, but you want the more useful one like its manditory.  Complaint is similar to when Fitness was a a power pool, to many thought they had to give up a lot 2 picks for Stamina yet in a way both swift and jump are useful; they just didn't see it and considered Stamina to be the only one.  Picking all your primary/secondary means you give up power picks or power picks for the primary/secondary.

 

Boxng is subpar, but so is a lot of other first tier powers.  It could use a buff, but not the option to skip.  The buffing from picking more of the melee powers is a joke, even brawl gets a bonus.  Tough and Weave should buff the attacks.

Exactly my thoughts on the bottom (actually mentioned it earlier). It's a lot to ask for, but I would love a day to come when i actually debate between picking up one of my primary or secondary offensive powers or jumpkick because 'it's so much better now and can be just as useful in it's own way'.

[Safehouse]

Personally I’m torn and I can see both sides of the issue. I’ve struggled about taking various power pool powers, because so many builds I’ve read about require things like Combat Jumping, Tough, Weave, etc, in order to optimize.

 

For instance I would love to be able to take the defensive fighting pool powers, at least, in order to improve my kit, and bring out more of my character’s potential.

 

But the payoff is that you don’t get to claim all of your powerset powers and I have a weird OCD about wanting all my powerset powers (except maybe confront on my scrapper). If I take more than two pool powers, I end up having to “sacrifice” a powerset power and/or epic powers, and more for each additional pool power that I have to take. I totally get that there has to be some sort of trade off and you can’t just “take all the powers you want.”

Personally I don’t mind the proposal that you be able to take tough without needing to take any of the earlier powers like box and weave. I also don’t have much knowledge about game balance and what kind of havoc that would cause. What if tough wasn’t available until level 14, but it still doesn’t require you to have taken box or kick beforehand? That way early game balance wouldn’t be thrown by having a power like that super early on, but you can grab tough if you want once it becomes available.

 

For me at this time I guess I’ll prioritize my powerset powers and accept a “less than optimized” build, but sometimes - just sometimes - I’d like to have my cake and eat it too 😆 

[Burnt Toast]

I personally wouldn't mind the ability to have more than 4 power pools. I don't think there is any need to retool them, but would like to be able to take 5-6 different power pools on a few toons. 

[Communistpenguin]

Id like the presence pool reworked. Originally back on live you could chose the st fear power first, then the aoe fear power as the second pick. i would like to do that again. 

[Williwaw]

I made a character who took the entire Fighting pool, and Crosspunch actually does pretty good damage if you take all three attacks, especially since it's a cone and can hit multiple targets if you line it up right.   A shame it doesn't make Punch and Kick all that great, even with the damage boost.  I like the idea of giving them higher damage and longer recharge times.