Focused Feedback: Dark Melee Update (Build 1)

[Neogumbercules]

8 hours ago, MunkiLord said:

So does this mean it will crit for Scrappers and gain the benefit of the ATO proc????????????????????????

I threw the critical strikes set into Soul Drain which proc'd almost every time and immediately followed up with Dark Consumption for a massive damage boosted crit-tacular explosion, then follow up with a crit-tacular ball lightning, then finally shield charge to bring it all home.

[siolfir]

Posted this in the other thread last night because it was in response to a comment about Energy Melee, but it really belongs here:

Per the standard damage formula the change to Shadow Maul is doing less damage than it should at a 14 second recharge.

 

Copying from the post (correcting for the missing denominator), the formula is: Damage Scale = 0.2*(0.8*Recharge+1.8) / AreaFactor, where AreaFactor = ((1+(Radius*0.15))-(((Radius/6)*0.011)/5)*(360-Arc)). Showing the work rather than just using the spreadsheet calculator that I checked the numbers with so if there's something wrong it can be pointed out:

 

The radius is 7', arc is 120, so you plug the numbers in to get:

DS = 0.2 * (0.8 * 14 + 1.8) / ((1 + (7 * 0.15)) - (((7 / 6 * 0.011) / 5) * (360 - 120))

0.2 * (11.2 + 1.8) / ((1 + (1.05)) - (((1.16667 * 0.011) / 5) * (240))

0.2 * (13) / ((2.05)) - (((0.012833) / 5) * 240))

2.6 / (2.05 - (.0025667 * 240))

2.6 / (2.05 - 0.616)

2.6 / 1.434

DS = 1.813

 

From the OP:

17 hours ago, Jimmy said:

Damage lowered from scale 2.156 to 1.588.

 

Edit to add: If Dark Consumption gets scale 3.18 damage criticals in an AoE then there's not really any excuse for reduced criticals on anything anymore.

Edited February 26, 2020 by siolfir

[Broken_Prey]

I ran a Mish last night on my DM/SD Scrapper. I love the change to DC. It hits hard and recharge was great, 20 seconds, so I could use it every group. So I could use SD, DC and shield charge on one group and the next use SD, DC and judgment.

 

It makes a big difference and you can feel the difference while playing. I haven't tested the change to SM yet will try it tonight. 

[therealtitanman]

i been wonder, why not make the dark consumption into ground zero like?

[ScarySai]

I think the fact that people are trying it on beta now and still think Shadow Maul is slow says a lot about how dreadful it's DPA was before the proposed changes.

 

Also: Tip to beta testers: When surrounded, jump before using shadow maul.

 

Works wonders, learned it with sweeping cross when I was playing my STJ/bio.

Edited February 26, 2020 by ScarySai

[Doc_Scorpion]

19 hours ago, Doc_Scorpion said:

Just happens I rolled a dark/shield brute just the other day and he was sitting in Atlas Park at lvl 7.  Took him out for a spin on Brainstorm...  and Shadow Maul's increased recharge time really effs up low level attack chains.  I'll get him up to DO levels later and see how it feels there.

In the interest of full disclosure, testing done for the day I took out the toon I had on Live...  And I didn't so much notice the decreased recharge as I did the decreased arc.

So, still mixed feelings.

[Infinitum]

11 hours ago, Captain Powerhouse said:

Clarification since I seen this statement a few times: Dark Consumption’s Radius was not increased.

These changes look awesome, but one thing...

 

Who can I bribe so Energy Melee is next?!?!  🙏

[Captain Powerhouse]

5 hours ago, siolfir said:

Copying from the post (correcting for the missing denominator), the formula is: Damage Scale = 0.2*(0.8*Recharge+1.8) / AreaFactor, where AreaFactor = ((1+(Radius*0.15))-(((Radius/6)*0.011)/5)*(360-Arc)). Showing the work rather than just using the spreadsheet calculator that I checked the numbers with so if there's something wrong it can be pointed out:

 

The radius is 7', arc is 120, so you plug the numbers in to get:

[...]

DS = 1.813

 

Good catch, someone give this person a bug hunter badge. Tool set was erroneously thinking the power was doing 5 ticks. Issue has been fixed and power will be adjusted in a future patch.

 

To be exact:

Recharge going down to 11 seconds

Endurance cost goes down to 11.024

Damage increased to scale 1.6184* 

 

*This is higher than the formula might imply because Melee cones get 2ft radius for "free" due to legacy reasons. (At some point all melee attacks were 5ft, standard melee range was increased to 7ft but that increase never touched cone damage, so melee cones are measured at radius - 2ft.)

Edited February 26, 2020 by Captain Powerhouse

[Nitrogen]

1 hour ago, Infinitum said:

Who can I bribe so Energy Melee is next?!?!  🙏

God bless you !

I dream of finding the old energy transfer...

[Myrmidon]

1 hour ago, Infinitum said:

These changes look awesome, but one thing...

 

Who can I bribe so Energy Melee is next?!?!  🙏

Adjust Energy Melee, Super Strength and Energy Aura then port them over to Scrappers and Tankers (respectively). We can call it “Issue 6, Make Most of the Melee Happy”.

[MunkiLord]

25 minutes ago, Myrmidon said:

Adjust Energy Melee, Super Strength and Energy Aura then port them over to Scrappers and Tankers (respectively). We can call it “Issue 6, Make Most of the Melee Happy”.

And Stone Melee!!! I NEED a Stone Melee Scrapper. 

[Camel]

7 hours ago, KelvinKole said:

I realize that. The thing is it still has a longer animation than midnight grasp and now the damage has been reduced, apparently in favor of making it easier to hit multiple targets. Tankers may like this, but I don't think it becomes a more attractive power choice for other archetypes, because you don't need another AoE when you can take out everything but bosses with Dark Consumption:

 

 

I actually one shot the boss in this example! 😅

[Kumate]

So my assessment of Dm as a tanker.  I actually think it is perfect minus Shadow Maul.  I feel like adding Dark Consumption was a huge aoe increase as it was, allowing Shadowmaul also increase to 180 (from 120 tanker) is to much (going to get struck by the forum replies I'm sure) but honestly, I think it should be 90 degrees vice 120.  Brute and stalker get a large aoe boost for SM and DC, and then Tanker still gets a large arc in front of them with SM.  The reason I say this is Frost Melee.  Frozen aura and Frost Breath are almost exact copies of this (minus animation looks).  The difference is DM get's a heal and FM gets an ice patch.  I know FB is 10 yards but that doesn't make up for 180 degrees and a really powerful heal that doesnt slow DPS.  I think DM should be 90 by default, because if its not it will be the clear winner for MANY builds and we will have to many Dark Melees running around.

 

Also side note, it seems DM is far far more complete and ahead then the other changes (new support AT/power pool ect).  Can we get this in an earlier update into the build while waiting for the other stuff to be completed for testing?  Be MUCH nicer for people to play around with DM....then after they get a character to 50 the other stuff starts coming out so they can play with it.  Will give us multiple "new car feelings" to keep playing with.  Just my suggestion.  Throwing it all out in one patch kinda lessen's the impact of them all because many people love all types of characters and have limited playtime.

[KelvinKole]

I'm gonna throw out a radical idea in the name of not trying to fix what isn't broken. Dark consumption is a utility power that already had enough value to consider taking and serviceable proc and damage potential. A shorter recharge may have been all that was needed. 

 

Instead of changing it, why not focus on the powers in the set that are obviously avoided by most people: shadow maul and touch of fear? I might then get more on board with the proposed changes to shadow maul and we could then make touch of fear something really interesting. Turn ToF into the PBAoE and then have a complete set full of truly valuable powers for people to choose from, and actually benefits Stalkers, the class that has one of the lowest Aoe potentials.

[csr]

1 hour ago, Kumate said:

So my assessment of Dm as a tanker.  I actually think it is perfect minus Shadow Maul.  I feel like adding Dark Consumption was a huge aoe increase as it was, allowing Shadowmaul also increase to 180 (from 120 tanker) is to much (going to get struck by the forum replies I'm sure) but honestly, I think it should be 90 degrees vice 120.  Brute and stalker get a large aoe boost for SM and DC, and then Tanker still gets a large arc in front of them with SM.  The reason I say this is Frost Melee.  Frozen aura and Frost Breath are almost exact copies of this (minus animation looks).  The difference is DM get's a heal and FM gets an ice patch.  I know FB is 10 yards but that doesn't make up for 180 degrees and a really powerful heal that doesnt slow DPS.  I think DM should be 90 by default, because if its not it will be the clear winner for MANY builds and we will have to many Dark Melees running around.

 

Also side note, it seems DM is far far more complete and ahead then the other changes (new support AT/power pool ect).  Can we get this in an earlier update into the build while waiting for the other stuff to be completed for testing?  Be MUCH nicer for people to play around with DM....then after they get a character to 50 the other stuff starts coming out so they can play with it.  Will give us multiple "new car feelings" to keep playing with.  Just my suggestion.  Throwing it all out in one patch kinda lessen's the impact of them all because many people love all types of characters and have limited playtime.

Stalkers don't have Dark Consumption.  I assume you meant Scrappers.

 

By my metric the new version of Shadow Maul with the 11s recharge and slightly higher DS (Capt P appears to be keeping the DPA in line with the current SM on live HC) will make Dark Melee gain just a tick above the average from the Tanker Inherent (the current beta version puts it below average in that regard, while on Live it is a true outlier off the bottom of the list).  So if the set is being buffed too much, then it probably isn't specific to Tankers, so a downward tweak would more appropriately be applied to Dark Consumption rather than Shadow Maul, as it wouldn't disproportionately hit Stalkers' AoE gains.

Edited February 26, 2020 by csr

[csr]

An off-the-wall suggestion to help Stalkers:  Make Touch of Fear a slow spreading chain attack and possibly add damage (the latter would only be paired with a reduction in the DC buff).

[siolfir]

11 minutes ago, csr said:

An off-the-wall suggestion to help Stalkers:  Make Touch of Fear a slow spreading chain attack and possibly add damage (the latter would only be paired with a reduction in the DC buff).

If we're talking about changing it to something else, just ditch Touch of Fear for Stalkers and either make a new PBAoE psi damage power that has a fear secondary effect (preferred, since it keeps them in the thick of things) or just give them Mind Control's Terrify.

[macskull]

10 hours ago, KelvinKole said:

I realize that. The thing is it still has a longer animation than midnight grasp and now the damage has been reduced, apparently in favor of making it easier to hit multiple targets. Tankers may like this, but I don't think it becomes a more attractive power choice for other archetypes, because you don't need another AoE when you can take out everything but bosses with Dark Consumption:

I mean, you're talking a recharge of 14 seconds (soon to be 11) for Shadow Maul versus 90 seconds for Dark Consumption. Yes, DC is going to be extremely good when you aren't using it for the end boost, but pretending it's enough AoE on its own with a recharge time that long is laughable.

[Wavicle]

13 hours ago, Haijinx said:

Okay look at it this way.  

 

You get a choice 

 

Your Tier 3 attack power can have (Same animation) 

4 second Recharge 

-or-

8 Second Recharge 

 

At level 7 the first choice is obviously better.  You only have a few powers and you miss a lot more.  

 

But since damage is based on Recharge,  which power is better in the long run?

 

Ill take longer recharging / Better damage / Better DPA attacks every time. 

 

Even if you are just soloing Arcs (+0/x1) you barely spend 30 minutes at level 7.  

 

That's before you even add in the fact that longer recharging attacks proc more. 

 

I actually did not say there is anything wrong with the design as is.  Just with the philosophy that it doesn't matter.

[Wavicle]

42 minutes ago, siolfir said:

If we're talking about changing it to something else, just ditch Touch of Fear for Stalkers and either make a new PBAoE psi damage power that has a fear secondary effect (preferred, since it keeps them in the thick of things) or just give them Mind Control's Terrify.

if we're talking about changing it to something else just change it to the new Dark Consumption.

[csr]

41 minutes ago, siolfir said:

If we're talking about changing it to something else, just ditch Touch of Fear for Stalkers and either make a new PBAoE psi damage power that has a fear secondary effect (preferred, since it keeps them in the thick of things) or just give them Mind Control's Terrify.

A PBAoE Terrify would certainly be nice.  It's 40s recharge would make it fill roughly the same niche as DC with Fear in place of the +END and less damage to make up for the END% scaling.  For Stalkers only in this case.  Though Touch of Fear on other ATs could use a bit of a buff too.

[csr]

I played my L32 Dark/SR Scrapper with a new build on beta a bit (part of the Freakalympics arc set at +1x3).  She kicked those Freaks' butts.  The AoE wasn't as good as on my DM/Regen Brute, as this toon was often running DC with 40-70% END.  When run as a SD/DC pair with high END the damage was pretty impressive and wiped out even the +2 Minions.  Shadow Maul was quite good even on this 14s Rech/1.56 DS setup (it'll be better with the next with slightly better damage and 11s Rech).  I was easily hitting 2x as many targets with it as the smaller version, and with the minimal work of the take-one-step-back tactic I hit 4 or 5 routinely.  Getting anywhere near the 10 target cap was pretty much impossible though; those Freaks just refused to stand on each others' shoulders (I did trick some into flying by jumping on crates and back down, but it really wasn't worth the trouble to get the extra 1 or 2 targets).  A major improvement in fighting larger spawns on this toon.  Running at x3 or higher is now a reasonable alternative to just running arcs at x1 and going for speed.

Edited February 26, 2020 by csr

[Microcosm]

21 hours ago, Murcielago said:

Honestly DM/SD is going to give Elec/SD a serious run for its money. Elec/SD may edge out slightly on AoE but DM will absolutely murder Elec in ST. 

This right here is a problem. Shadow Maul is a garbage power that truly needs the buff, but adding other AoE to DM is unbalanced as whole. DM is one of the higher performers in single target damage, and possibly the highest performer in utility/mitigation. It should be weaker than other sets in AoE unless you want to buff the hell out of Electric's single target damage and make Chain Induction heal and Lightning Rod refill your blue bar. I'm just picking electric since quoting Murc; it's not the only comparison to make here.

 

Also, adding AoE to Dark Consumption only helps Scrappers/Tankers/Brutes, who, while having lower AoE than other sets at least have any AoE outside of Shadow Maul. Stalkers is where DM is actually hurting for AoE..

[Haijinx]

21 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

I actually did not say there is anything wrong with the design as is.  Just with the philosophy that it doesn't matter.

None of it matters.  We are insignificant biological pollution that resulted from the happenstance proximity of organic chemical compounds under the right conditions, on one coalasced ball of dust out of trillions.  I would use "the" before insignificant, however that's probably putting on airs. 

 

However that's not really on topic.  Neither is philosophy.  

 

Lots of melee sets have 14 second PBAOEs though, and they do fine.   

 

The attempt here seems to be to make SM  functionally Dark Melee's version of a PBAOE.

 

So it was fine.  The level 7s will make it.

[Bopper]

4 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

So it was fine.  The level 7s will make it.

Pour one out for all the Dark Melees that will never make it to level 8.