Reducing End Drain

[Herotu]

3 hours ago, tidge said:

 

Stop the presses! New Headline!

 

CoX gamer wants specific change for narrow class of enemies without taking advantage of in-game preventive measures!

Very droll, I'm sure.  :)

 

I guess back in the olden days the players just got countered, with no choice in the matter. I think that for the most part this thinking is gone now, isn't it? PLayers have active counters and such ..

 

 

... actually, now I think about it... 

 

... I can sort-of-remember ... we used to scout ahead and stuff. 

Edited May 27, 2020 by Herotu

[Snowdaze]

1 hour ago, MTeague said:

The most irksome enddrainers on melee for me aren't the sappers.  they die fast, and often miss, or otherwise get Controlled pretty quick. 

 

The most annoying ones for me as the Freak Super Stunners.  Because I'm pretty sure that End-Drain-On-Ressurect they do is 100% auto-hit.  It's nailed my /SR scrapper pretty much every time, until I learned to just back the heck up before finishing them off.  And not just a little, because it has a decent range when it activates.  Carnie packs aren't that that big a deal because either there arent' usuallly so many of them dying at once, OR, their drain may require a to-hit roll that my /SR just dodges.

 

I'd still rather have the odd Can-Opener in the game though, that I have to be alert for and handle a bit difference instead of facerolling everything.

QFT all of it. Super stunners are the roughest on END, their sleep patch and rez are auto hit! But I'm ok with it, a nice tough boss is good. Plus it re-enforces the mindset of "Don't stand in stupid!"

[Vanden]

9 hours ago, Greycat said:

Isn't that basically the recovery bonus?

Hah! Recovery set bonuses are straight garbage. An even-level Clockwork minion will drain 5 endurance with Charged Bolts, the weakest attack they have. It would take an Ultimate Recovery Bonus, the strongest one there is, 75 seconds to get you back that much endurance. A typical Clockwork fight is going to have far more end-draining attacks coming in than you could possibly have +Recovery set bonuses, and Clockwork don't even have -Recovery on their attacks. -Recovery debuffs typically come in around -50% to -100% debuffs, and even -25% is over six times as powerful as the Ultimate Recovery set bonus (again, the strongest one you can get), just from one attack. Saying +Recovery set bonuses could help with end drain is like saying a single tree could prevent a landslide. More info here.

Edited May 27, 2020 by Vanden

[Outrider_01]

7 hours ago, Vanden said:

single tree could prevent a landslide

Depends on the size of the area you intend to cover.  Take that tree, cut the branches into pegs and split the trunk into long boards.  Use the pegs to hold the boards in place and strategically tier them to shore up the dirt. 

 

Like your average size back yard type loose dirt hill, no problem and a single good size tree is all you need.  Definitely not a thin sapling twig. 

 

A cascading avalanche the size a mountain, not so much.

[GetRidOfWires]

On 5/27/2020 at 9:50 AM, Monos King said:

Because there are plenty of options in the form of the powers you choose to play and the abilities you choose to get. I really feel set bonuses should remain that; bonuses, supplementary, an expansion on what you already have or could've had and just didn't get. End drain res starts crossing into powerset specific perks and I gotta say...not really down for that. If that happened, there wouldn't be any reason to not add every other debuff res via extraneous source as well. I'm totally ok with unique procs offering those more exclusive options, but set bonuses themselves? Seems needless. I even considered the opportunity cost thing, but the issue is that things like end drain res are so exclusive, and the existing stats are so prevalent, that there actually isn't any real trade off. You can get +def, +hp, +dmg in spades from sources like incarnates, base buff, many existing IO sets, etc, so you'd lose really nothing speccing into this endurance resistance thing. There's even a soft cap for def, so anything past that's only situationally necessary. This would result in just a straight buff.

 

I'll admit, it's possible greater issues stemming from similar mind have caused me to be less willing of ideas like this, but I think this type of idea steps on an actual slippery slope (not the fallacy), opening the door to more homogenizing notions (lets get global +secondary effect or +defense res procs!) and just undermines the more iconic aspects of powersets and mitigates the need for actually understanding the strengths of your powerset in overcoming certain adversities. If you think I'm actually succumbing to a slippery slope (the fallacy) I should remind you there is already a precedent set for this kind of thing. Set bonus increases to mez resistance were clamored for, which quickly lead to general buffs in ordinary resistance set bonuses once it was compared to defense and now maxed out players are variable tanks regardless of AT. People wanted inherent fitness (a good idea) and now they want inherent hasten (arguable idea) and automatic domination (ridiculous idea). Allowing one thing very often leads to crys for another, which occasionally actually happens, so I would really just prefer we left endurance resistance and other unique debuff res to the powersets that get it, or perhaps even unique procs.

 

As someone else had said, you can just spec defense. Or keep the end draining enemies mezzed, kill them instantly or focus your efforts on the one that drains. Powers already have the means to combat debuffs, and sometimes it's better to not engage despite that. You know, strategize time. Straight giving resilience to those negative affects is best case boring and worst case undermining. 

 

 

Well, I think there's some disconnect here. Blasters are supposed to have minimal, if any, defense. Yet if I pick Weave, Maneuvers, Hover, and Stealth and then supplement those with set bonus values that add to Ranged Defense, I am able to cap ranged defense on a Blaster. If I understand the logic here, only ATs with Defense sets should be able to do that.

 

Maybe I don't want to cap Defense. It takes away from other bonus values and Procs I might want to include. And I'm not asking to cap End Drain, I just want some mitigation as an option in a set bonus, which is typically only a few percentage points anyway. Enough that I can hit a Blue, that's all.

[Monos King]

29 minutes ago, GetRidOfWires said:

Well, I think there's some disconnect here. Blasters are supposed to have minimal, if any, defense. Yet if I pick Weave, Maneuvers, Hover, and Stealth and then supplement those with set bonus values that add to Ranged Defense, I am able to cap ranged defense on a Blaster. If I understand the logic here, only ATs with Defense sets should be able to do that.

 

Maybe I don't want to cap Defense. It takes away from other bonus values and Procs I might want to include. And I'm not asking to cap End Drain, I just want some mitigation as an option in a set bonus, which is typically only a few percentage points anyway. Enough that I can hit a Blue, that's all.

I'm not sure I understand your logic either. The game is not balanced from an IO perspective so anything you're able to do therein like soft cap a blaster is extra. Not to mention that's just the meta objective since most people avoid enemies that have high to hit or frequent -def. I'm not sure what your saying with the blaster soft capped def thing, if you could elaborate a bit please.

 

If every -end enemy you fight is ruining you, you might need to just work on your endurance in some way. -end res genuinely just wouldn't be necessary unless it's the big end hitters to begin with, there are other and generally better ways of dealing with them when they do arrive, and it just sets a bad precedent as was earlier discussed. If you could explain how adding this wouldn't actually cause problems in the form of what I and others previously noted, and give a new solution, then you'd probably be set. I already kind of gave one that could work and make it immediately accessible: adding it as a minor Unique proc for a new enhancement IO. And even that doesn't truly address the harmful precedent matter. I can't see allowing it to be a stackable set bonus ever sliding though.

Edited May 29, 2020 by Monos King

[Sovera]

As others mentioned there are options in game for this. One I did not see mentioned is the super simple Recovery Serum bought at the P2W vendor. You can buy stacks and stacks of it por a 10k-per-charge pittance and they apply a tremendous Recovery buff that tends to overwhelm Clockwork and Freaks' early sapping.

[Saiyajinzoningen]

6 hours ago, Sovera said:

As others mentioned there are options in game for this. One I did not see mentioned is the super simple Recovery Serum bought at the P2W vendor. You can buy stacks and stacks of it por a 10k-per-charge pittance and they apply a tremendous Recovery buff that tends to overwhelm Clockwork and Freaks' early sapping.

10k per charge? Good lord that's a lotta money XD

[Zeraphia]

I don't agree with reducing the enemies' debuffs because they're meant to present a fun/interesting challenge. It's not your cup of tea, I get that 100%, but that doesn't make it "OP." I personally think Soldiers of Rularuu are some of the nastiest things in the game but I see them as an interesting group that you encounter rarely to provide a decent end-game challenge. 

 

However...

 

A discussion about certain powers and powersets having their endurance costs reduced to more reasonable standards conducive to the cast rates of said powers/feasibility without "tricks" such as P2W/Temp/Ageless is a very fruitful discussion that I do believe has a lot of merit to it. It's quite clear that many sets could badly use some rebalancing in terms of their endurance costs.

[Primantis]

On 5/27/2020 at 8:32 AM, tidge said:

Are there any candidates for which sets would get this hypothetical bonus? I am willing to wager that few players are willing to give up existing Defense, Damage Resistance or Global Recharge bonuses. Would players really chase a '6th-piece' bonus if it provided Endurance Drain Resistance? Are players going to 5-slot Control sets to get an Endurance drain resistance?

 

 

I would just bake it into the +recovery bonuses.  Kind of like how they have positional/typed defense both baked in.

[Esau]

On 5/27/2020 at 7:54 AM, Herotu said:

How effective is Endurance Drain Resistance? I only need it to the degree that a malta sapper won't turn off my toggles. 

OR is it resistance % CHANCE to the whole effect? That's good but not as good as I'd like. 

So to clarify, I'd like it so that when a malta sapper zaps my tanker's endurance, it doesn't go to 0. I want it to go down to .. say... 5% - enough to stop me taking actions for fear of losing toggles. 

At the moment it's a 2 minute job to toggle everything back on and by then all my allies have run off with no tanker. Which is, admittedly, kinda fun to watch.

Seeing the replies to this Tanker's post, I'd like to point something out.

 

[Edited to add this from chat on this current Patron mission - even the NPCs appear to agree...well, at least Wretch does.  This made me laugh SO hard after posting, I went back to the mish, and here's Wretch]

 

[NPC] The Wretch: Night-Shock!!! Night-Shock!!! 
[NPC] The Wretch: Night-Shock?
[NPC] The Wretch: Wretch want back to Widow. Wretch will HURT you!
You have defeated Sapper
You gain 968 experience and 169 infamy.
[NPC] The Wretch: Sapper!!! Sapper!!! 
[NPC] The Wretch: Wretch thank!

 

[LOL - The Wretch.  "Sapper!!  Sapper!!" yep, I feel ya Wretch.]

 

I am currently running missions against Malta on an alt.  I've invested at least 30mm Inf into this alt.  The alt is an electric/dark corrupter running Tough 4-slotted with Unbreakable Guard, Shadow Fall, 4-slotted with Gambler's and Weave 3-slotted with Karma.  The corrupter also has 6-slotted the corrupter set scourging blast, power-transfer, positron's blast and multi-strike, has adjusted targeting 5-slotted, and 3 slotted thunderstrike, plus, has 4-slotted touch of the nictus, 4-slot pacing of the turtle and a perf shifter in stamina.  He is L37.  I "twinked" him I thought reasonably well...

 

A yellow Malta Sapper can 1-shot my endurance entirely, stop my toggles, and hits most of the time right through the multiple defense buffs and the dark to-hit debuffs.  Even running the salvage buff to reduce end drain, I usually eat a defense insp, and 3-4 end insp when I come across 1 in a group...and 2?  I eat almost every insp I've got, throw down all my powers, and still, its a toss up if I survive...

 

That indeed, seems out of whack.  I'm throwing down temp powers, pets, buying the in-base salvage buff, consuming insp and playing a char with 10's of millions of Inf invested -- and before you post strategies to overcome sappers...remember...this is a minion we're talking about.  A boss?  Sure.  But a minion?  Really?

 

So IMO - a balancing pass is needed on the malta sappers.  Has been needed since back on live.   I do not believe that a basic mob should require a custom build respec, that seems excessive.  A boss, maybe.  An AV, sure.  But a basic mob?  Really?  Really...?

 

And the fact that folks always jump pretty consistently on others who point it out doesn't seem helpful to me.

 

I'd really like the homecoming folks to look at this, when they can.  They're a volunteer team at the moment, so totally get that there is very limited bandwidth, and they are doing AMAZING, so this is NO complaint from me, I'm not whining at all.  SO GRATEFUL TO HOMECOMING.  You all are AMAZING!

 

And...I've been cursing at these sapper dudes since live...they're a minion, not a boss.  IMO their impact on game play is out of whack for what they are.  Always has been...

Edited July 8, 2020 by Esau

[Communistpenguin]

On 5/27/2020 at 2:10 PM, Troo said:

 

[FrauleinMental]

Not to "jump on" you or "post strategies", but I do have to disagree with you.  Sappers don't need to be nerfed.

 

Everything in Malta melts ("arrests") pretty easily.  Sappers are the only reason people have to fear Malta, but they're only OP if you let them be.  Sappers have one trick (maybe two, if you count their melee hold), and they're easy to counter if you're actually looking for them.  It's exactly the way Kheldians learn to look out for Quantums, Voids, and Nictus everywhere.  Most people I played with on Live had learned to scan Malta spawns for Sappers and mez them or focus them down.  It doesn't matter that they're only minions--it matters that they're the only dangerous mob in the spawn.

 

Also, if you're regularly seeing yellow Sappers in missions (beyond the occasional up-leveled spawn), it's because you have your Notoriety turned up.  The Sapper is your wake-up call.

[Eclipse.]

I have 2 things to add to this.

 

34 minutes ago, FrauleinMental said:

 It's exactly the way Kheldians learn to look out for Quantums, Voids, and Nictus everywhere.  Most people I played with on Live had learned to scan Malta spawns for Sappers and mez them or focus them down.

 

Also, if you're regularly seeing yellow Sappers in missions (beyond the occasional up-leveled spawn), it's because you have your Notoriety turned up.  The Sapper is your wake-up call.

1.) IIRC Sappers sap is actually interruptable, but not able to verify at the moment.*
2.) Even if it wasn't and certainly they can be burst down before they use it -- they're a minion not a boss afterall, I'd argue if they were a boss they'd be MORE in need of a nerf.

3.) Quantums are substantially neutered now compared to the unresistable damage they used to have since they just do negative energy damage instead of having an unresistable damage type to PB/WS like they used to.


*Got on just now, looks like it has a 4s activation time, about 10% longer than a snipe activation, so almost (like 98%) entirely sure it can be interrupted.

Edited July 9, 2020 by Eclipse.
*

[Greycat]

1 hour ago, FrauleinMental said:

 

Also, if you're regularly seeing yellow Sappers in missions (beyond the occasional up-leveled spawn), it's because you have your Notoriety turned up.  The Sapper is your wake-up call.

Seconding this. What are you running at? It's one thing if you're saying "My car can't keep up on the freeway." It's another thing if you try to run your minivan through a Nascar race. 🙂

[Monos King]

3 hours ago, Esau said:

That indeed, seems out of whack.

Nah it's not only fine but it's kinda cool. Having minions that hide dangerous moves creates sort of a specialized group that make mobs threatening while not being too difficult to handle. I like it. I'd like to see dangerous minions more, like the banished pantheon and really all Dark Astoria enemies.

[golstat2003]

Agreed. Not seeing the issue here. It's why I kill sappers on sight and look for them first. That supposed to be an intentional part of gameplay. Their rank isn't the issue. The issue is that each mob in the upper levels (and some in the lower levels like Tsoo Scocerers) have a mob that you have to "look out for".

 

I'm fine with this.

[Eclipse.]

2 hours ago, golstat2003 said:

Their rank isn't the issue. The issue is that each mob in the upper levels (and some in the lower levels like Tsoo Scocerers) have a mob that you have to "look out for".

I think their rank is exactly why it's not an issue.

A Sapper AV would be [very] problematic*. As a minion they're easily manageable as long as you "look out for" them as you said. 

*Are there any EBs/AVs that apply substantial -recovery or -end?

[Monos King]

5 minutes ago, Eclipse. said:

*Are there any EBs/AVs that apply substantial -recovery or -end?

Protean, any AV with electricity or psionic lightning, Lamashtu somewhat.

[Eclipse.]

4 minutes ago, Monos King said:

Protean, any AV with electricity or psionic lightning, Lamashtu somewhat.

Duh, I guess I never noticed it on Scirraco -- but of course he does. Recluse himself does as well, (channel gun) that one is a lot more obvious when it hits. I'll have to check the actual strength of their end drains when I get home.

Lamashtu has both an (enddrain, -recovery) AOE power and a +endCost power, interesting. I don't know that I've ever fought him.

[FrauleinMental]

1 hour ago, Eclipse. said:

*Are there any EBs/AVs that apply substantial -recovery or -end?

Mary MacComber can be pretty nasty (especially with the rest of the Cabal) if you're not prepared.  Most of the Cabal witches at all ranks have either -End or -Rec.  The first mission in KHTF can be horrifying if the team leader has the Notoriety maxed out.

[Monos King]

1 hour ago, Eclipse. said:

Duh, I guess I never noticed it on Scirraco -- but of course he does. Recluse himself does as well, (channel gun) that one is a lot more obvious when it hits. I'll have to check the actual strength of their end drains when I get home.

Lamashtu has both an (enddrain, -recovery) AOE power and a +endCost power, interesting. I don't know that I've ever fought him.

She's a newer on only encountered in a First or Night Ward arc. Protean is the worst though, as his Power Siphon automatically removes your end if you dont have high resistance. It also sometimes heals him to full health.

[Haijinx]

On 5/30/2020 at 4:58 AM, Sovera said:

As others mentioned there are options in game for this. One I did not see mentioned is the super simple Recovery Serum bought at the P2W vendor. You can buy stacks and stacks of it por a 10k-per-charge pittance and they apply a tremendous Recovery buff that tends to overwhelm Clockwork and Freaks' early sapping.

This.

 

Recovery Serum is awesome, I never leave home without it.  

 

 

[Llewellyn Blackwell]

21 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

This.

 

Recovery Serum is awesome, I never leave home without it.  

 

 

My character Skylord is actively RPed as an addict of this super soldier serum.