Ever feel useless (Support woes)

[Greycat]

10 minutes ago, Yomo Kimyata said:

You are a force multiplier.

 

Ahh, yes, the legendary jedi mathematician. *nods*

[LordTenma]

5 hours ago, Hexquisite said:

You're only useless if you're just following the rest of the team and not doing anything. 

 

It may not seem like your buffs or debuffs or heals are helping, but sometimes that small fraction of advantage brings more benefit than anyone realizes. 

Anbd that's kinda how I feel, like my buffs debufs ain't contributin

[Haijinx]

33 minutes ago, Greycat said:

Ahh, yes, the legendary jedi mathematician. *nods*

The one you must carry. 

[MTeague]

8 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

The one you must carry. 

the chosen one who will bring balance to the equation?

[Twisted Toon]

44 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

The one you must carry. 

Master Quota has spoken!

[EmmySky]

Maths = ebil

[Luminara]

9 minutes ago, EmmySky said:

Maths = ebil

Ebil?

Gerbil?

Math gerbil?

Math gerbil.

[Heraclea]

6 hours ago, Yomo Kimyata said:

I see you for what you really are.

 

You are a force multiplier.

 

Many will not see that, but you and I know it.

 

Thank you!

Just finished a Manticore on the poison/dark.  Got the character to 46.  Put Paragon Protector in the target bind.  Some of them got their MOG on.  Even if they did, it made no difference.  Hopkins lasted maybe 20 seconds.  Countess ran away.  Feeling useless was not in the cards today. 

[Clave Dark 5]

You "don't need to be on this team" no matter what AT you're playing when you're in the upper levels.  You could bring in your tank, stalker, widow, troller, and it would all roll long just about the same way (except of course not quite as fast, as already pointed out).  This has nothing to do with the AT you're running.

[Lines]

I think there's only a small band of content that has this effect, usually in the pre-incarnate 45-50 range. It also happens to be a regularly played band. To me, the differences between characters become very redundant and homogenous in that area. I tend to avoid it.

 

I'd love to see [options for] that band to be given some bite to match its bark, and more opportunity for all characters to stretch their capabilities. Especially at that point, when our characters have reached the culmination of their development.

[Golden Azrael]

Only when seeing Over Drive 1, 2 and 3 shot mobs before I get my first arrow out as a Defender.

 

Azrael.

[roleki]

Can't say I have ever felt useless or that I wasn't contributing when running one of my support ATs, but if I ever had that feeling, I am not sure where I would go with it.  The very nature of a support AT is implied by the word 'support' - as in, our contribution, no matter how critical or trivial, is going to be more nuanced than the dude with the comically-giant broadsword or claws for hands.  

 

While it sucks to suspect that the team would do just fine without you, keep in mind it can and will do just fine without the scrapper, without the tank, without the sentinel, and so on. 

[Bill Z Bubba]

20 minutes ago, roleki said:

While it sucks to suspect that the team would do just fine without you, keep in mind it can and will do just fine without the scrapper, without the tank, without the sentinel, and so on. 

Truth. It'll just be slower.

[Omega-202]

16 minutes ago, roleki said:

While it sucks to suspect that the team would do just fine without you, keep in mind it can and will do just fine without the scrapper, without the tank, without the sentinel, and so on. 

I think the issue is that's not always gospel truth.  The way I see it, there are 3 scenarios:

 

1) Your scenario, where a "support" can be swapped out with a damage dealer and there's really no difference in survival or completion rate.  This assumes a "support" that deals damage and has support features that aid in dealing damage.

 

2) A scenario where a support is dead weight compared to another damage dealer because they contribute sub par damage, any survival benefits are superfluous and their damage force multiplication is too slow/does not make up for their lower damage.  

 

3) A scenario where the support is the lynchpin to team survival and/or damage force multiplication (eg. -Regen and -Res in AV fights) and contributes more than another damage dealer.

 

The current endgame meta is such that scenarios 1 and 2 are way more common than 3, and scenario 2 probably outnumbers scenario 1.  So while its nice to think "the team would do fine without the support, but also fine without X", its not really true a lot of the time.  An Apex run that loses an Emp/Energy Defender is going to suffer way less than one that loses a TW/Bio Brute.

[Luminara]

I replied to the thread earlier, but I'm going to say something else now.  Slightly different direction, but perhaps worthwhile.

 

I've spent most of my life feeling useless.  I barely made it through high school, I dropped out of college halfway through the first semester twice, and I have social anxiety disorder.  All of that has led to me having to do some real shit jobs, the kind of work no-one with a better education or healthier mental state would even consider.  I felt that nothing I did mattered, in part because no-one expressed appreciation or approval of what I did, in part because I lacked any semblance of self-respect or sense of worth, and in part because the work I did seemed like pointless drudgery (jobs anyone with limbs could perform, or even properly programmed machines).

 

One of the places where I worked was raided by INS after I left.  I discovered, much later, that they couldn't replace me without hiring two people, and they couldn't pay two people the ridiculously low wage they were paying me unless they were illegal immigrants.

 

A few years later, I was "let go" by an employer (not my fault, nothing i did.  he was a quadriplegic, and he was just tired of seeing my face every morning (worked 7/week then)).  Less than six months later, he was e-mailing me to ask if I'd return.

 

Another place where I worked closed a few months after I left.  They couldn't afford to pay two people to do the work I did, and they weren't hiring illegal immigrants, so they just shut the doors and never re-opened.

 

The last person for whom I worked... sold his restaurant, moved out to the same area where I live now and regularly asks for me to assist him in catering and restaurant work.

 

Now, it doesn't matter what I want to do, there are people who are always asking me to help them, practically throwing money at me to fix things, do a little very easy grunt work, sometimes just to answer a few questions or give some advice on how to solve a problem.  I matter to them, even though I don't technically work for them.  I matter because I can do things that they can't, I know things they don't, and I cheerfully put a little elbow grease into even the unpleasant tasks they don't want to do for themselves (or are growing too old to continue doing for themselves).  I make a difference in peoples' lives, and they appreciate it.  I get paid now to do things I enjoy doing, like working on a tractor, and things I don't mind doing, at all, like pulling weeds around blueberry and asparagus beds.  These people don't see me as useless or worthless, and despite my mental illness telling me otherwise, I'm learning to see myself as they do.

 

Sometimes, we just can't see that what we do matters.  That we bring value to a place, or a team.  That our contributions make a difference.  And, in fairness, maybe we don't always matter, bring value or make a difference.  But more often than not, what we do with and for others is meaningful, even in Co* content where we feel like it's barely a blip on the radar.  There's always someone who appreciates what we do, even in Incarnate content with a team that doesn't seem to need us, and in accepting that, in understanding that even if no-one says anything, there was an impact that someone's going to remember years later, there's a lot of satisfaction and a reason to develop some self-respect.  And respect for what your character can do.

 

Heck, I played WoW for a year, and when I walked away, it was barely memorable to me.  But, to my surprise, one of the names I used showed up in a search over ten years later.  Someone remembered me.  I'd made a difference to that person.  I made the game better for him.  That's going to happen here.  We can all make a difference, even if we don't see it, and someone's going to look back fondly and reminisce about us.

 

Except me, because I won't be on one of those teams.  *twitch*

[Omega-202]

8 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

Truth. It'll just be slower.

That's what I feel like it comes down to.  My maxed out Controllers and Corruptors can take on pretty much everything that my maxed out Stalker, Crab and Tank can, but they just do it so much slower. 

 

I think the part that kills it is the stupid long animation times on so many of the useful support powers in the current metagame.  Why do Sleet and Freezing Rain need a 2.03 s animation?  Why does Tar Patch need a 3.1 s animation? Fulcrum Shift = 2s, Poison Trap (Traps) = 2.77s, Radiation Infection = 3s, Lingering Rad and Enervating Field = 1.5s, Twilight Grasp = 2.37s, Howling Twilight and Darkest Night = 3.17s.  Some of the best support powers for the current metagame take forever to actually use and by the time they're done animating, two Judgements, a Blaster Nuke and a Lightning Rod have gone off and decimated the spawn, so who cares about the support?

[Blackmoor]

6 hours ago, Luminara said:

I replied to the thread earlier, but I'm going to say something else now.  Slightly different direction, but perhaps worthwhile.

 

I've spent most of my life feeling useless.  I barely made it through high school, I dropped out of college halfway through the first semester twice, and I have social anxiety disorder.  All of that has led to me having to do some real shit jobs, the kind of work no-one with a better education or healthier mental state would even consider.  I felt that nothing I did mattered, in part because no-one expressed appreciation or approval of what I did, in part because I lacked any semblance of self-respect or sense of worth, and in part because the work I did seemed like pointless drudgery (jobs anyone with limbs could perform, or even properly programmed machines).

 

One of the places where I worked was raided by INS after I left.  I discovered, much later, that they couldn't replace me without hiring two people, and they couldn't pay two people the ridiculously low wage they were paying me unless they were illegal immigrants.

 

A few years later, I was "let go" by an employer (not my fault, nothing i did.  he was a quadriplegic, and he was just tired of seeing my face every morning (worked 7/week then)).  Less than six months later, he was e-mailing me to ask if I'd return.

 

Another place where I worked closed a few months after I left.  They couldn't afford to pay two people to do the work I did, and they weren't hiring illegal immigrants, so they just shut the doors and never re-opened.

 

The last person for whom I worked... sold his restaurant, moved out to the same area where I live now and regularly asks for me to assist him in catering and restaurant work.

 

Now, it doesn't matter what I want to do, there are people who are always asking me to help them, practically throwing money at me to fix things, do a little very easy grunt work, sometimes just to answer a few questions or give some advice on how to solve a problem.  I matter to them, even though I don't technically work for them.  I matter because I can do things that they can't, I know things they don't, and I cheerfully put a little elbow grease into even the unpleasant tasks they don't want to do for themselves (or are growing too old to continue doing for themselves).  I make a difference in peoples' lives, and they appreciate it.  I get paid now to do things I enjoy doing, like working on a tractor, and things I don't mind doing, at all, like pulling weeds around blueberry and asparagus beds.  These people don't see me as useless or worthless, and despite my mental illness telling me otherwise, I'm learning to see myself as they do.

 

Sometimes, we just can't see that what we do matters.  That we bring value to a place, or a team.  That our contributions make a difference.  And, in fairness, maybe we don't always matter, bring value or make a difference.  But more often than not, what we do with and for others is meaningful, even in Co* content where we feel like it's barely a blip on the radar.  There's always someone who appreciates what we do, even in Incarnate content with a team that doesn't seem to need us, and in accepting that, in understanding that even if no-one says anything, there was an impact that someone's going to remember years later, there's a lot of satisfaction and a reason to develop some self-respect.  And respect for what your character can do.

 

Heck, I played WoW for a year, and when I walked away, it was barely memorable to me.  But, to my surprise, one of the names I used showed up in a search over ten years later.  Someone remembered me.  I'd made a difference to that person.  I made the game better for him.  That's going to happen here.  We can all make a difference, even if we don't see it, and someone's going to look back fondly and reminisce about us.

 

Except me, because I won't be on one of those teams.  *twitch*

I think that you, and every other person that plays support toons, could really use this little bit of encouragement:

 

 

So get out there and keep buffing, debuffing, healing, rezzing, speeding, shielding AND adding in a little DPS when you get around to it. 🙂

 

 

Edited September 29, 2020 by Blackmoor

[Clave Dark 5]

12 hours ago, Luminara said:

We can all make a difference, even if we don't see it, and someone's going to look back fondly and reminisce about us.

 

Except me, because I won't be on one of those teams.  *twitch*

And yet here you are, making that difference even without being on a team!

[Llewellyn Blackwell]

Honestly imo the #1 fix for this feeling is just be the team leader. By being the one who is building and directing the team, you are already doing the single biggest bit of heavy lifting anyone can do for the team. By making that team happen. It is my own number 1 secret for while leveling toons, especially late bloomer builds. I lead the teams. I put them together, and I keep them moving. And even when on a near naked new toon, I feel more useful then anyone on the team. Because I know the moment I leave the team it almost always falls apart.

 

There is a lot of hub bub in our world from the height of RL to the most modest team based games about both being worth the spot one takes up, and whether the spot we take up is worth it to the individual. This can vary a lot from culture to culture, and family to family. And just like for ourselves in the RL, for each character in game, their purpose, their destiny, and the impact they make in it is entirely on each of us. Each of us alone sets and defines what we are worth to ourselves and to the world at large.

 

If you set your sense of self worth by how others see you, and value you, then you are on a hamster wheel that will only end when you have run your self to death trying to please others. Each of us is first and foremost responsible for only our own sense of happiness and fulfillment. It actually is the root of what we call co dependent behavior to have this need for others to constantly praise and support your actions so you feel justified in doing them. This can even lead down the road of terrible manipulatlion and abuse.

 

We are never alone in our modern world and society, the clothes we wear, the food we eat, the tech we use in these moments to write here online all connect us to every hand and mind that helped bring these things into being. Do you think the spinner of the threat from the silk worm on the other side of the world ever thinks about or cares if you like the silk shirt your wearing? No they take their sense of self value from the act itself. They do not need every person in the world sending them a thank you note each day for the shirts they help take part in making?

 

Angels might fall from grace, and every hero die, but they will never be seen as such if first they did not reach for the sky!

[Six-Six]

I'm learning Defenders now. I solo a lot, so I have it built to be soloable. But I also have a few powers in my belt for the good of the team. Most ATs can be run solo with little difficulty. What I have noticed is that the tank/scrapper/brute/stalker/whatever doesn't need that buff or debuff, but providing it makes things easier for them.

On a full team of 8 that moves fairly swift, it is hard to notice a support role's contribution. But on a casual team of 2-4, it is more pronounced. You/we are carrying our weight. Are we needed there, no. But we are there and we do make a big difference.

[Scientist]

7 hours ago, Llewellyn Blackwell said:

Honestly imo the #1 fix for this feeling is just be the team leader. By being the one who is building and directing the team, you are already doing the single biggest bit of heavy lifting anyone can do for the team. By making that team happen. It is my own number 1 secret for while leveling toons, especially late bloomer builds. I lead the teams. I put them together, and I keep them moving. And even when on a near naked new toon, I feel more useful then anyone on the team. Because I know the moment I leave the team it almost always falls apart.

Nice idea, I'm definitely willing to cut any team leader a lot of slack because they are doing a lot of work behind the scenes keeping the team going.  

 

I love support characters though, of my 10 level 50s I have 1 stalker and 1 blaster, and 7 characters with a support primary or secondary.  The remaining level 50 is a tank, who I also run as support.  In fact the tank is my go-to for at least half of the "I need help with this mission" requests. 

 

I will say that every support powerset I run has some form of inflicting either -resist (see summer's comment earlier) or +team damage (i.e. kin) to speed up teams, though, as those are the main useful things for high level content, and I really try to work in -regen as well because AVs can be significant speed bumps depending on team makup.  I ran a /FF controller back in the day, and have no desire to repeat that powerset, when I remade the controller on HC he was /Time, much more interesting and useful and still fit the character concept.  

 

I have also noticed significant differences in team performance when they have 1 or 2 "support" characters and when they don't, at least in moderately hard content, as Sir Myshkin said.  

[Coyotedancer]

7 hours ago, Six Six said:

On a full team of 8 that moves fairly swift, it is hard to notice a support role's contribution. But on a casual team of 2-4, it is more pronounced. You/we are carrying our weight. Are we needed there, no. But we are there and we do make a big difference.

 

That's also a good point... The dynamics of playing on a small team, or duo/trio, are a different animal than being in the middle of an eight-player wrecking ball. 

[MTeague]

18 hours ago, Blackmoor said:

I think that you, and every other person that plays support toons, could really use this little bit of encouragement:

So get out there and keep buffing, debuffing, healing, rezzing, speeding, shielding AND adding in a little DPS when you get around to it. 🙂

Automatic upvote for RUSH

[CFIndustries]

On 9/27/2020 at 10:47 AM, Hexquisite said:

It may not seem like your buffs or debuffs or heals are helping, but sometimes that small fraction of advantage brings more benefit than anyone realizes. 

My first 50 coming back on HC was a rad/rad defender. He 50'd faster than my dom and my scrapper; no shortage of people wanting him on teams. So support still has value in some people's minds 0-50 and even for basic 50+ PI radio roflstomps. The incarnates might not need it or care, but the lowbies tagging along do.

 

And something I've noticed playing the above rad/rad defender and a mind/psi dom: the debuffs and controls DO make a difference. I can watch mobs melt faster when I get my rad toggles off sooner. Less deaths and near deaths happen when my dom controls that mob we accidentally aggo'd without anyone noticing at first.

 

I think the trick to feeling like you shine is to not back-seat play…learn to get in sooner. Don't player a defender, play an "offender." Learn the patterns of the team and time the debuff just as the tanker gets things under control or that scrapper dives in. Pre-emptively lock-down that second group everyone ran by accidentally. Follow the tanker into the fray with your PBAoE debuff (except KB ones!); I learned a long time ago that often standing next to the tanker is often the safest place to be, not on the edges. Adapt, be daring, and STILL be useful.

[Wavicle]

On 9/27/2020 at 6:27 PM, Luminara said:

Math gerbil.

*laughs in character creator*