Weekly Discussion 71: Regeneration

[Vanden]

9 minutes ago, Zepp said:

•  First, I was stating that it was the best passive resist power, in other words, it offers 75% total resist, which is higher than Bo Ryaku (60%), True Grit (56.25%), or Hardened Carapace (56.25%). As such, it is the best passive resist power.
• Finally, Bane Spider Armor Upgrade (60% total resist) is the only one of the three you mentioned that has better secondary effects, but it is not in an Armor Powerset.

Where the heck are you pulling these numbers from? I know you’re not talking about damage resistance.

 

10 minutes ago, Zepp said:

Second, it's stun protection is also comparable to the other secondary effects you mentioned for Armor Powerset

The stun resistance in Resilience is redundant with Integration. It’s only useful if you need to use a t1 or t2 Rez inspiration. The extra effects in the other passives I mentioned are not made pointless by other powers in the same set.

[carroto]

I like that regen plays so differently.  I enjoy a more active mitigation style.  However I can't get away from the knowledge that active mitigation means lowered damage output.  Not only that, but it takes away time I could be employing active mitigation from my attack set.

 

I like armor sets that contribute to damage in some way.  I'm a big fan of damage auras, but other boosts are appreciated as well.  An armor set that doesn't offer any kind of boost has to have some other way of hooking me.  Regen is the only set I can think of that not only doesn't increase my damage, but actually decreases it.  What does it offer to offset that penalty?  Just a different play style.  Sometimes that's enough, but for me generally it's not.  There's got to be some reason for showing up, and regen doesn't quite make the cut.

[Zepp]

@Vanden Based on Scrapper numbers, Resilience has 9.375% resist x 8 categories = 75% total resistance. Bo Ryaku has 7.5% x 8 categories = 60%. True Grit has 11.25% x 5 categories = 56.25%. So, yes, I am talking about damage resistance. Maybe not the way you were thinking about it, but in a manner that is translatable between powers. In fact, 9.375% resistance for a specific category is the highest level for any passive resist power other than True Grit (11.25 En/Ne/Fi/Co/To), Temperature Protection (22.5 Fi), or Permafrost (22.5 Co).

 

In fact, when looking at toggles, the 75% total Resistance offered is the same level as Dark Embrace, Fire Shield, and Murky Cloud. It is only overshadowed by three powers, Charged Armor (78.75%), Proton Armor (82.5%), and Conductive Armor (93.75%). Which means it is higher than Hardened Carapace, Frozen Armor, Alpha Barrier, Deflection, Temporary Invulnerability, Mind over Body, Obsidian Shield, Static Shield, Wet Ice, Fallout Shelter, Unyielding, Adaptation, Plasma Shield & Glacial Armor.

[Hexquisite]

1 hour ago, Mezmera said:

I thought it was understood regen was to always be nerfed.  

 

What happened?!  We start making Energy Melee great again and all of a sudden people are compelled to actually give some thought to regen? 

 

What kind of times are we living in?!  Up is down, dark is light, and we are going to BUFF regen?!?!

 

And lo, it was said, 'As it has throughout aeons immemorial, Regan shall be nerfed, time and time again. And with the final nerf, it shall cease to be, only to surge back to what it once was, whole and complete, truly regenerated at last. And from there, it shall begin the nerfing cycle anew.'

 

Do not attempt to understand, mortal; to try and comprehend would only drive you mad.

 

'That is not buffed which can eternal eat earth. And with strange updates, even buffs may nerf.'

Edited October 8, 2020 by Hexquisite

[Zepp]

3 minutes ago, carroto said:

I like that regen plays so differently.  I enjoy a more active mitigation style.  However I can't get away from the knowledge that active mitigation means lowered damage output.  Not only that, but it takes away time I could be employing active mitigation from my attack set.

 

I like armor sets that contribute to damage in some way.  I'm a big fan of damage auras, but other boosts are appreciated as well.  An armor set that doesn't offer any kind of boost has to have some other way of hooking me.  Regen is the only set I can think of that not only doesn't increase my damage, but actually decreases it.  What does it offer to offset that penalty?  Just a different play style.  Sometimes that's enough, but for me generally it's not.  There's got to be some reason for showing up, and regen doesn't quite make the cut.

16 hours ago, Zepp said:

. . . give Resilience a PO meter... you receive a 1% damage boost for every 10% of base health you lose, up to 15%...
In other words, a Scrapper at cap (2,409 HP) would have a 15% boost if they have 308 HP left...

What are your thoughts on this proposal for increasing damage output for Regen toons?

[Xeres]

I'm thinking something different with Regen.  First I think it should be available to all ATs - other than Arachnos and PB/WS.  Of course, instant healing should be changed but here's my idea on this power:

 

Make IH do a heal based upon the damage you do.  On Tanks, because Regen's the primary, the heal is stronger than chars who have regen as a secondary.  But, overhealing will apply a HP buffer over you max HP for damage absorption.  So your blaster's 100 damage attack at full health will give you say, 10 HP, barrier unslotted, which would be stackable for a very short time, up to a % (30%?) of your total health.  This barrier will start to diminish after a certain amount of inactivity.

 

I'm just thinking as I type, the numbers can be adjusted of course.  And maybe the heal can be based upon another power type for controllers or such instead of just damage.

Edited October 8, 2020 by Xeres

[carroto]

1 hour ago, Zepp said:

What are your thoughts on this proposal for increasing damage output for Regen toons?

Is there any reason to think it would turn out better than old Defiance for Blasters?  Trying to dance near death for a minor damage boost doesn't seem all that appealing on the surface.

[DSorrow]

11 hours ago, Zepp said:

What are your thoughts on this proposal for increasing damage output for Regen toons?

15% +DMG is, to be honest, not nearly enough. After enhancements, Alphas, averaged in BU and set bonuses (let's say, ~175% total enhancement for someone using Musculature), that 15% increase to base damage is only a ~5% net effective increase from that point. This is an issue for several reasons:

1. Most of Regen's powers would actively reduce this damage buff making it difficult to maintain
2. Regen doesn't have much mitigation so staying at low HP is incredibly risky, not worth it for a 5% net increase in DPS
3. It's also a counter-intuitive mechanic for a set whose whole gimmick is to keep your HP close to the max

I honestly don't have any good ideas how to fix the offense drawback in Regen in a way that would fit thematically and not completely rehaul the set. Mechanically, I think some kind of +Dmg or +Rech tied to the use of clickies would be fair because they're what causes the issue, but I'm not sure that really fits. And we'd still be left with the issue of attack animations killing you. However, if the game engine supports it, I'd be cool with allowing at least Reconstruction/Dull Pain to be used while an attack is animating, which should fix most of the animation related issues.

[Hew]

How about axing one of the powers, and replace it with a reverse sliding recov/regen? Regen goes down as recov goes up, and vice versa, based on current equivalency.

 

So at 80 health 40 recov, recov goes up, regen goes down. In the reverse, 40/80, regen goes up, recov goes down. Total passive, maybe add something else in as well, like +tohit or + damage, which could also scale in value.

 

You could mule all sorts of crazy in there, or creatively slot to maximize swing values (since base regen/recov swing % would be hard, not relative, so boosting heal in the power would be force multiplicative).

 

 

edit: Also, regen has nothing to deal with cascade failures. Even if you have a 100% heal (auto or clicky), whatever the cascade failure you suffered that required the healmeh button is going to cause you to faceplant ANYWAY. It will just take .5-2 seconds longer to faceplant.

 

Maybe a button that wipes res/def debuff off you, tied to a moderate heal/end (actual green bar, actual blue bar) buff?

 

edit edit: My first idea was actually on @Boppers post on page 1 (preserverance?). Like minds think alike!

 

Edited October 9, 2020 by Hew

[Zepp]

3 hours ago, DSorrow said:

15% +DMG is, to be honest, not nearly enough. After enhancements, Alphas, averaged in BU and set bonuses (let's say, ~175% total enhancement for someone using Musculature), that 15% increase to base damage is only a ~5% net effective increase from that point. This is an issue for several reasons:

1. Most of Regen's powers would actively reduce this damage buff making it difficult to maintain
2. Regen doesn't have much mitigation so staying at low HP is incredibly risky, not worth it for a 5% net increase in DPS
3. It's also a counter-intuitive mechanic for a set whose whole gimmick is to keep your HP close to the max

I honestly don't have any good ideas how to fix the offense drawback in Regen in a way that would fit thematically and not completely rehaul the set. Mechanically, I think some kind of +Dmg or +Rech tied to the use of clickies would be fair because they're what causes the issue, but I'm not sure that really fits. And we'd still be left with the issue of attack animations killing you. However, if the game engine supports it, I'd be cool with allowing at least Reconstruction/Dull Pain to be used while an attack is animating, which should fix most of the animation related issues.

My thoughts are:

• 15% was a lowball proposal designed to be the minimum number necessary to bring Regen DpS in line with other sets.
• Because of the yo-yo nature of the set you would have your damage output varying. This would mean in higher-risk encounters you would get more of a damage boost while in lower-risk encounters you may not get any damage boost.
• I don't think chasing the bonus would be useful unless you have nearly finished with the engagement.
• It is a mitigation tool designed to basically give you more damage if you are in engagements that require a lot of clickies but less if you are in safe engagements where you aren't losing DpS. It is actually quite intuitive for the yo-yo nature of the set.
• I don't like the idea of tying the +Dmg to clickies because then you are just making it another build-up.

Alternative proposals to rewarding players for taking a skill-focused set:

• Reconstruction/Dull Pain reduce their animation times to 0.132s (the same as Bright Nova), and have no body movement, just a but of smoke (the Dull Pain constipation animation is annoying anyways).
• Add 25-30% (roughtly on-par to the perma-able aspect of Inner Light) damage bonus not attached to HP to Resilience.
• Reduce animation times of Reconstruction/Dull Pain to 0.132s, add 20% base damage buff to Resilience and 0-15% damage buff tied to HP loss.

[zenijos10]

Some great ideas here. I would love to see most of them be implemented (except -regen aura which makes no sense thematically to me, its regeneration not vampirism).

 

 I wanted to add something new so I tried to get out of the coh box.

 

Consider Deadpool or Wolverine being stabbed, and they heal while being stabbed.  This could cause the enemy difficulty in removing the weapon and attacking again: slowness and also inaccuracy and potentially opens enemies to counter attack.

 

Mechanically, maybe IH and reconstruction create a small radius aura for melee that does a small amount of -recharge and -acc (or to hit) to enemy and +damage to any player in the radius.  Or if possible, IH instead of a radius, it acts as a damage shield/reflect against Lethal melee damage firing back a decent amount of -acc and -recharge at the attacker and improving the players damage. 

 

This would be unique, continue the regen theme well, and also improve the effectiveness reducing effect of regen on primary powers.

Edited October 9, 2020 by zenijos10

[Furiant]

I don't have any theory crafting to contribute but I can say that I loved my regen scrapper in the old days before the transition to clicks. It was a joy to play.

 

Now on HC I haven't even rolled one because the idea of all that clicking just turns me off. From joy to utter disinterest.

 

I think I can follow the logic of why it changed for balance reasons, looking at it from a "make everything balanced" perspective. I just can't follow the logic of making it less fun from a "make everything fun" perspective.

[Troo]

6 hours ago, DSorrow said:

15% +DMG is, to be honest, not nearly enough. After enhancements, Alphas, averaged in BU and set bonuses (let's say, ~175% total enhancement for someone using Musculature), that 15% increase to base damage is only a ~5% net effective increase from that point.

/em doublefacepalm

 

no one is designing power sets around incarnate level characters..  that said +dmg for take hits sounds more ragey that regenie.

 

it is definitely correct that:

6 hours ago, DSorrow said:

we'd still be left with the issue of attack animations killing you

Edited October 9, 2020 by Troo

[Shadowsleuth]

Aside from front loading the heals, scaling regen and/or scaling damage resist and resistance to -heal, -regen, & -recharge; How about also adding this...as your health drops below half your health bar, you have a cumulative chance of instantly recharging some/all of your clickies (Reconstruction, Instant Healing, etc...) (with a cooldown after it triggers)?

Edited October 11, 2020 by Shadowsleuth

[JnEricsonx]

On 10/8/2020 at 3:56 PM, Hexquisite said:

 

And lo, it was said, 'As it has throughout aeons immemorial, Regan shall be nerfed, time and time again. And with the final nerf, it shall cease to be, only to surge back to what it once was, whole and complete, truly regenerated at last. And from there, it shall begin the nerfing cycle anew.'

 

Do not attempt to understand, mortal; to try and comprehend would only drive you mad.

 

'That is not buffed which can eternal eat earth. And with strange updates, even buffs may nerf.'

Also, it's 2020.  Let's start bringing some good news.

[Mystic_Cross]

 

I always wanted to like Regen but it never felt as powerful as it should be when compared against superheroes like Wolverine, Deadpool etc. in the comics. When Willpower was released I always felt a little bit like they got the roles reversed between the two. I always thought Regen should be the "relentlessly persevering through damage without stopping" set, and Willpower should have been the one that needed to stop (click a lot) to focus their will to keep going. It just doesn't make sense to me that someone with superhuman healing ability has to constantly stop attacking in order to put effort (willpower) into healing themselves, and some regular joe who just has "the will to keep going" never has to stop to rest/recover at all and just keeps trudging along at a faster pace.

 

Willpower can currently reach higher levels of regeneration than Regeneration can (without IH), and that's before even factoring in the layered Def/Resists it has. In order for Regen to compete, it needs to have noticeably superior regeneration capabilities at base, with it's click powers factoring in afterwards to be the equivalent of those layered defenses, in my opinion.

 

I do like some of the ideas @Bopper put up in his post, with a few minor caveats that I'll address below:

 

On 10/6/2020 at 10:01 AM, Bopper said:

I'll add more to this later with numbers, but in general Regeneration should have high levels of resistance to regen and heal debuffs. It should also have scaling regeneration based on health levels (similar to Super Reflexes with scaling resists).

 

Updated:

Here is a breakdown of what I'd like to see with Regeneration using a Brute as an example.

 

First a breakdown of what I've done: 

• All 3 Auto powers have Res(Regeneration) included. For a brute this is 25.95% each for a final build total of 77.85% Res(Regeneration)
• All 3 Auto powers have unenhanceable scaling Regeneration added as an effect. It begins to kick in when your health dips below 75%. For every 1% of HP lost after 75%, you gain 2% Regeneration (for each Auto power, so 6% total). This allows you a maximum of 150% Regeneration at 0% HP, so combining all 3 Auto powers, this is a maximum of 450% Regeneration at 0% HP, 300% Regeneration at 25% HP, 150% Regeneration at 50% HP, and 0% Regeneration at 75%+ HP.
• I overhauled Quick Recovery and made it Perseverance. It's sort of a hybrid of Gamma Boost (scaling Regen/Recovery based on Health) and Inexhaustible (small max HP increase and various debuff resists).
• I overhauled Revive. I made it Return to Glory, which is basically a 2nd Moment of Glory that you can use (longer cooldown though), but you can also use it as a Revive if you fall in battle.

I agree with most all of this, except that I think it should also include a high level of resistance to Recovery/Endurance drain and perhaps Recharge/Slow resistance as well. I also don't think it would be completely unreasonable to start the Scaling Regeneration at 90% health instead of 75% given that there is virtually no other substantial form of protection outside of healing back damage taken (i.e. very low resists, no defense).

 

Additionally, I think it would be very fitting to see some kind of Heal over Time effect added in, either in place of, or in addition to flat +Regen% bonuses. Or if not a straight HoT then some kind of heal that can proc on damage received. I picture it as kind of like a "you're getting shot, but by the time the bullet passes through you've already regenerated half the damage it caused" type of thing. Like a bunch of small burst heals that cover some of the incoming damage, and then letting the regeneration pick up the rest of the slack. I was thinking that Integration might be the best place for something like this.

 

On 10/6/2020 at 10:01 AM, Bopper said:

I made numerous other changes, but I can explain them all below.

 

Changes: Added the unenhanceable scaling Regeneration and changed the Activate period from 10s to 1s, that way the scaling Regeneration will update more frequently.

 

I think the 9.375% (unenhanceable) resist all values that were put into Reconstruction would fit better into Fast Healing for a few reasons: 

1. The resistance would always be active without needing to worry about keeping the buff up every 60 seconds.
2. It wouldn't take away from current slotting options (currently we're able to slot Resist enhancements/IOs into Reconstruction)
3. Having the resistance in Fast Healing will make it similar to other powers like High Pain Tolerance in Willpower or True Grit in Shield Defense, while keeping a unique Regen flavor.
4. With the scaling resists added, this power will now differ from other versions of Fast Healing and will need to be renamed anyway. Moving the resists here will prevent the need to also rename Reconstruction by keeping that power as it is currently.

 

On 10/6/2020 at 10:01 AM, Bopper said:

Changes: Removed the 15% Res(Toxic) and replaced it with a 9.375% Res(All). This resistance is not enhanceable, which allows us to remove the "Not affected by outside buffs/debuffs" flag. This comes into play later with Instant Healing.

 

As stated above, I think the 15% Res(Toxic) we already have should stay here, and remain enhanceable. Toxic damage isn't prominent with many enemy groups (currently) but it is still extremely helpful with lower level Vahz and quite possibly will remain so once Freaklok are introduced. Toxic resist has always been the one resist type that Regen has ever had going for it in any meaningful way, and I think it's important to the overall performance of the set even if it isn't something we see very frequently (right now). If anything, I think Regen could use even more Toxic Resist... have you ever fought a big group of Arachnids on a regen character?

 

On 10/6/2020 at 10:01 AM, Bopper said:

 

Changes: This is an overhaul of quick recovery. The 30% Recovery bonus will now scale with current HP% (I think this should be buffed up, but good enough for now). We add a +Max HP effect that is worth 10% base HP, with half of this effect being enhanceable. Also added the scaling regeneration (0-150%, based on current HP%). Added a 25.95% Resistance to Regeneration and Slows and a 51.9% Resistance to Endurance Drain. Also changed the activation period to 1s to accomodate the scaling Regeneration/Recovery.

 

I like this overall. I see that some End/Rec/Slow debuff resistance was worked in here, which is fantastic. I'd personally prefer the extra 10% base HP to be fully enhanceable to start, and scale it down to half/non-enhanceable during testing if needed. Would also like to see the scaling Regeneration start from 90% health instead of 75%, making it 0-180% based on current HP%.

 

On 10/6/2020 at 10:01 AM, Bopper said:

 

Changes: This used to be Dull Pain. I tweaked it to have a smaller cooldown (240s instead of 360s), but also it is a smaller buff to +Max HP (30% instead of 40%) and Heal (449.78 instead of 599.7). The reasons for this change, I wanted to make it easier to reach perma buff, now needing only +100% Recharge instead of +200% Recharge, and I wanted the self heal to be available more often. The net of the +Max HP does not change, thanks to Perseverance we will still get a +40% MaxHP, with half of that enhanceable.

I like the smaller cooldown and don't really mind the lower +Max HP and Heal. I don't think I'd mind it at all if the +10% MaxHP on Perseverance was fully enhanceable. Great step towards not feeling like Hasten would be required, at least for this power.

 

On 10/6/2020 at 10:01 AM, Bopper said:

 

Changes:  Minor change here. There was a 50% Regeneration effect that was unenhanceable, I bumped it up to 100% Regeneration effect unenhanceable. This now gives the toggle 200% Regeneration, half unenhanceable.

 

I feel like Regen could make use of a Heal over Time a bit more than a slightly higher regen%. It would compliment the set more IMO, and being the only toggle in the set, Integration seems like a prime place for an HoT. If anything, I think the addition of a HoT here would make it more reasonable for the suggested regen scaling in Fast Healing, Perseverance and Resilience to start at 75% health instead of 90%.

 

Just throwing out numbers here, but what if Instead of bumping the 50% unenhanceable Regeneration to 100%, we added an unenhanceable HoT for about 3% of Max Health? That would equal something like a 45hp heal every 2s at base HP, and around a 75hp heal every 2s with dull (numb) pain active on a Brute. Yes, this is a good bit more powerful than just a 50% +regen buff, however this would actually be the strength needed in order to bring regen up into an equivalent ratio matching just Willpowers regeneration capabilities.

 

OR while I'm not particularly fond of making an RttC clone, it would probably make the scaling in smaller encounters feel less OP than the above. So perhaps more ideally, Integration could be made into an aura that scales per enemy, not unlike RttC, but with a scaled HoT instead of scaling +regeneration. Just tossing the same numbers again, but something like a 0.3% of Max HP heal per enemy in range, up to 10, for a total of 3% Max HP heal every 2s when fully saturated? With perma Dull (Numb) Pain, on a Brute, this would work out to be around a 7.5hp heal every 2s per enemy, or the equivalent of 3.75hp/s regen per enemy which is slightly less than what RttC gets fully slotted (4.04hp/s per enemy). At base HP (for a Brute) it would be equivalent to 2.25hp/s regen... or just over half of what RttC is capable of.

 

Oh, and add Fear Protection to Integration. It doesn't make sense that someone who can regenerate anything and revive from dead would be susceptible to fear. 

 

On 10/6/2020 at 10:01 AM, Bopper said:

Changes: Added the unenhanceable scaling regeneration and added a 25.95% Resistance to Regeneration and Recharge debuffs. Also changed the Activate period from 10s to 1s to accomodate the scaling regeneration.

Again, the scaling regeneration could start at 90% health, but otherwise this looks good.

 

On 10/6/2020 at 10:01 AM, Bopper said:

 

Changes: I reduced the cooldown from 650s to 600s. Also added a Strength to Regeneration/Heal buff for 90s. This will give a 29.8% strength boost to the regeneration of Fast Healing, Integration and Health, and will give a 29.8% strength boost to the heals of Numb Pain and Reconstruction (which is why I made the Resistance unenhanceable).

The lower recharge is a plus (even if I'd personally prefer it to be lower still) and the Heal/Regen Strength boost is more than welcome, I'm wondering "why" on the unenhanceable Resistances now though... you've specifically tagged "29.8% Str(Regen,Heal)" as the boost effects, so unless I'm mistaken, it wouldn't buff the resists anyway.

 

 

On 10/6/2020 at 10:01 AM, Bopper said:

 

Changes: Made this power the T8, increased the effect duration from 15s to 20s, and increased the cooldown from 240s to 300s. Also, I removed the Stun protection (since we already get that in 2 other powers) and replaced it with Fear protection. Also reduced the cast time from 2.57s to 1.5s.

 

Truth be told, this power seems redundant with Return to Glory. I'd rather see it replaced with something else entirely rather than have two nearly identical powers in the set. Aside from that, a 5 second duration increase for a 60 second recharge increase seems harsh to me. Even taking the strength of the power and lack of a crash into account I'd think a 60 second recharge increase would at least warrant a 15s duration increase... unless you added a revive or something to it 😉

 

I don't have any grand ideas on what to replace it with specifically, but "Indestructible" seems a fitting power name for regeneration. "You harness your indestructible nature, pushing your body to its limits. As a result you can now move faster and strike your foes harder, using excessive force that would destroy the limbs of a lesser being. your body can heal so fast in this focused state that it actually causes you to have a measure of resistance to attacks, repelling bullets and blades alike by rapidly healing at the moment of impact."  +20% recharge, +20% speedrunning/jumping, +30% damage, +30% resist(all but psi), +300% regeneration for 60 seconds on a 240s recharge or something? Just spitting random numbers, no idea if that would be balanced. I'm sure someone else could come up with something better.

 

 

On 10/6/2020 at 10:01 AM, Bopper said:

 

Changes: This is an overhaul of Revive. You can still use this like a revive, but instead of getting 15s of Untouchable, you get 20s of Moment of Glory. You also can use this power while alive as a 2nd Moment of Glory. The cooldown was increased from 300s to 360s to accomodate the added capability (I probably should make it 420s or 480s, but I'll be generous to start).

I like the overhaul here but I think the recharge would be fine at 300s for a T9 with a crashless, short duration buff that has a revive bundled in. I don't think it would be a big deal to leave the Stun Protection in, regardless of how prominent it is in the set. I actually got stunned to death on my regen Stalker a few times while fighting Freakshow in the 30s back on live. The old adage applies... "better to have it and not need it, than need it and not have it". I didn't have it at the time.

 

The Fear protection makes sense though, it's a nice addition and should probably be included with Integration as well, because what does someone who can instantly heal any damage really have to fear? Clowns maybe?

 

 

[BrandX]

2 hours ago, Mystic_Cross said:

 

I always wanted to like Regen but it never felt as powerful as it should be when compared against superheroes like Wolverine, Deadpool etc. in the comics. When Willpower was released I always felt a little bit like they got the roles reversed between the two. I always thought Regen should be the "relentlessly persevering through damage without stopping" set, and Willpower should have been the one that needed to stop (click a lot) to focus their will to keep going. It just doesn't make sense to me that someone with superhuman healing ability has to constantly stop attacking in order to put effort (willpower) into healing themselves, and some regular joe who just has "the will to keep going" never has to stop to rest/recover at all and just keeps trudging along at a faster pace.

 

Willpower can currently reach higher levels of regeneration than Regeneration can (without IH), and that's before even factoring in the layered Def/Resists it has. In order for Regen to compete, it needs to have noticeably superior regeneration capabilities at base, with it's click powers factoring in afterwards to be the equivalent of those layered defenses, in my opinion.

 

 

I have to say, I do feel you're looking to much at the meta aspect of the powers.  Name and how they're used doesn't have to be the name.  Especially with customization.

 

That doesn't mean however, we can't want the playstyle changed a bit.  Claws/Regen was my first 50 on CoH and then they changed it and it hasn't felt right to me since and it hasn't felt equal to other sets in the late game at all to me. 😞  I hear it is with weapon sets that provide +Defense, but I don't want to use a set just for +Defense.

[Mystic_Cross]

33 minutes ago, BrandX said:

 

I have to say, I do feel you're looking to much at the meta aspect of the powers.  Name and how they're used doesn't have to be the name.  Especially with customization.

 

That doesn't mean however, we can't want the playstyle changed a bit.  Claws/Regen was my first 50 on CoH and then they changed it and it hasn't felt right to me since and it hasn't felt equal to other sets in the late game at all to me. 😞  I hear it is with weapon sets that provide +Defense, but I don't want to use a set just for +Defense.

 

Not really looking at the meta at all, just generic IO slotting and playing on "easy" +1/x3 or +0/x6, which any armor set on generic IOs/SOs should be able to manage. Even Regen can be made serviceable in meta... with specific primaries and far more slotting investment than any other secondary needs. I was just relaying my input on the base performance between Regen and WP. I typically use generic IOs from 15-50 and vendor TOs, DOs and SOs while leveling. At 50 I'll make a Mids build (or three) and run them through some things on test until I'm happy with the performance, and then finally start acquiring what I need on live to make it happen. I don't judge powersets based on "meta" play, I judge them based on how they perform with generic IOs slotted... because that's what I use and it's close "enough" to what the game is balanced on (that being SOs). Regen is not on par with other defensive sets at this level, at all, and Willpower severely outperforms Regen at what it's supposed to be best at... regeneration, Outside of 90 second intervals every 5 minutes or so. 

 

On a fresh 50 with generic level 50 IOs, both Regen (without IH) and Willpower (with 1 enemy in RttC) each have 578% regen using 3 Heal IOs in each power that boosts regeneration. This gives Willpower a regen value of 47hp/s due to High Pain Tolerance adding +MaxHP.  Meanwhile Regen only has 36hp/s unless it also uses a 3 heal-slotted Dull Pain (which can't be kept perma at this point) to bring the regen amount up to almost 58hp/s while DP is active. Either way you look at it, Regen has 10hp/s less regeneration than Willpower, or 10hp/s more while using Dull Pain, and without IH you can't get any higher.  Even if RttC could only affect 1 enemy at a time, a 10hp/s regen still wouldn't come close to making up the difference of resist and defense that WP has.

 

But RttC can still scale up to 9 more enemies for 83hp/s regeneration... that's 25hp/s better than regen using DP (47hp/s more the rest of the time)... and it can maintain that at all times on top of having better defense and resists. If Instant healing was up at all times, then Regen would be about equal to Willpower with its better resists, defense and a saturated RttC. But Instant Healing doesn't recharge fast enough, nor does it stay up long enough to add meaningful mitigation. It might get you through half a mission or so, but then won't be available again until after at least 1 more mission. MoG has the same issue.

 

Sure, I could roll a Willpower alt and pretend that it's a Regeneration alt instead... but why should I have to do that when we have an actual Regeneration powerset that should perform at least as well, if not better, than that Willpower set? Granted, if there was no Regeneration set available, then that's probably what I'd do... but that's not the case.

 

If the answer to playing a generic IO slotted Regen character is to "just roll WP and pretend" then they might as well just delete Regen from the game entirely, instead of gathering feedback to make it perform on-par with other defensive sets.

[Galaxy Brain]

On 10/9/2020 at 7:39 PM, Shadowsleuth said:

Aside from front loading the heals, scaling regen and/or scaling damage resist and resistance to -heal, -regen, & -recharge; How about also adding this...as your health drops below half your health bar, you have a cumulative chance of instantly recharging some/all of your clickies (Reconstruction, Instant Healing, etc...) (with a cooldown after it triggers)?

I actually quite like this idea... scaling base rech on Regen clicks based on HP

[BrandX]

19 hours ago, Mystic_Cross said:

 

Not really looking at the meta at all, just generic IO slotting and playing on "easy" +1/x3 or +0/x6, which any armor set on generic IOs/SOs should be able to manage. Even Regen can be made serviceable in meta... with specific primaries and far more slotting investment than any other secondary needs. I was just relaying my input on the base performance between Regen and WP. I typically use generic IOs from 15-50 and vendor TOs, DOs and SOs while leveling. At 50 I'll make a Mids build (or three) and run them through some things on test until I'm happy with the performance, and then finally start acquiring what I need on live to make it happen. I don't judge powersets based on "meta" play, I judge them based on how they perform with generic IOs slotted... because that's what I use and it's close "enough" to what the game is balanced on (that being SOs). Regen is not on par with other defensive sets at this level, at all, and Willpower severely outperforms Regen at what it's supposed to be best at... regeneration, Outside of 90 second intervals every 5 minutes or so. 

 

On a fresh 50 with generic level 50 IOs, both Regen (without IH) and Willpower (with 1 enemy in RttC) each have 578% regen using 3 Heal IOs in each power that boosts regeneration. This gives Willpower a regen value of 47hp/s due to High Pain Tolerance adding +MaxHP.  Meanwhile Regen only has 36hp/s unless it also uses a 3 heal-slotted Dull Pain (which can't be kept perma at this point) to bring the regen amount up to almost 58hp/s while DP is active. Either way you look at it, Regen has 10hp/s less regeneration than Willpower, or 10hp/s more while using Dull Pain, and without IH you can't get any higher.  Even if RttC could only affect 1 enemy at a time, a 10hp/s regen still wouldn't come close to making up the difference of resist and defense that WP has.

 

But RttC can still scale up to 9 more enemies for 83hp/s regeneration... that's 25hp/s better than regen using DP (47hp/s more the rest of the time)... and it can maintain that at all times on top of having better defense and resists. If Instant healing was up at all times, then Regen would be about equal to Willpower with its better resists, defense and a saturated RttC. But Instant Healing doesn't recharge fast enough, nor does it stay up long enough to add meaningful mitigation. It might get you through half a mission or so, but then won't be available again until after at least 1 more mission. MoG has the same issue.

 

Sure, I could roll a Willpower alt and pretend that it's a Regeneration alt instead... but why should I have to do that when we have an actual Regeneration powerset that should perform at least as well, if not better, than that Willpower set? Granted, if there was no Regeneration set available, then that's probably what I'd do... but that's not the case.

 

If the answer to playing a generic IO slotted Regen character is to "just roll WP and pretend" then they might as well just delete Regen from the game entirely, instead of gathering feedback to make it perform on-par with other defensive sets.

 

I meant in terms of the name and how the powers are used.  WP concept wise can be used for anything Regen can be, but the idea of playstyle does come into play.    But what I'm saying is, I wouldn't go by the name itself...though yes...we all tend to want to.

[zenijos10]

19 hours ago, Galaxy Brain said:

I actually quite like this idea... scaling base rech on Regen clicks based on HP

I think its a cool idea too, but how does it thematically make sense as regeneration?  Maybe makes more sense as a mechanic for a time armor or melee set.  Would love to play something with it.

[Shadowsleuth]

6 minutes ago, zenijos10 said:

I think its a cool idea too, but how does it thematically make sense as regeneration?

As your body is taking damage your ability to self-heal goes into overdrive to compensate.

 

Think of it as wolverine or the hulk taking heavy damage & they suddenly bounce back stronger & more ticked off than ever.

 

[BZRKR]

5 minutes ago, zenijos10 said:

I think its a cool idea too, but how does it thematically make sense as regeneration?  Maybe makes more sense as a mechanic for a time armor or melee set.  Would love to play something with it.

As a stress response, the mutant's body goes into overdrive and heals more? The onboard damage control systems flood the body-chassis with more reconstructive nanites? The wards and enchantments trigger and auto-cast more spells in response to damage? The mind of the combatant subconsciously directs more interdimensional energy to heal wounds at an accelerated rate? The grizzled combat veteran swallows an experimental energy supplement?

[Giovanni Valia]

On 10/7/2020 at 2:29 AM, DSorrow said:

...Another huge issue with Regen is that it's extremely weak against debuffs, especially -Regen, -Heal and -Rech out of which the last one is very common. Also given the lack of innate Defense, most of those debuffs are likely to land. Finally, we get to its main weakness: spike damage, which is prevalent everywhere in the game unless you play at very low difficulty settings.

The "spike" damage taken when fighting higher level mobs is what kills this set for me. My experience with /regen has been awful in PvE. The set focuses too much on keeping IH/ Dull Pain up just-in-time to stay alive. Any -recharge or -regen debuffs are a death sentence for this secondary.

I'd support adding the Sent's [Instant Regeneration] absorb effect to the set, or at least adding some dmg mitigation. As is currently stands Regen is a VERY under-preforming set.

[summers]

As crazy as this sounds, I don't really want an absorb effect on Regeneration - at least not when at 100% health. I know it would make the set better, but I think there's other ways to do it. If 'regeneration' sits on 100% health it's just another resistance/defence set IMO. I feel a cornerstone of regeneration is not being at 100% health, that you are getting hit and healing up.

 

To achieve this effect I think strongly scaling resistances (and perhaps absorb below 50% or 25% health - numbers to be tweaked) would allow your health to fluctuate regularly at the top ends of the health bar, making you feel like regeneration is happening, and achieving real toughness at the bottom end of your bar so that it is a balanced armour set.