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Weekly Discussion 71: Regeneration


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A click happy set like regen really needs immediate effect on its powers. It can have an animation, but reconstruction's heal should hit 0.1 second after the click if not sooner (latency willing). Trading some peak spike performance potential (aka all of its uber clicks active at once) for some more sustained/base performance(regularly reapplied absorb or more resist) would be nice. Other than that, make all the regen it gives enhancable, since I remember something about only half of it improves with slotting.

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Tons of fun to level, thanks to Quick Recovery at 4.  Poorly adapted to the endgame we were given (though the real endgame remains rolling an alt.)  You can spend millions in inf and/or hundreds of merits bringing it up to the state where something like Willpower, Radiation, or Bio is on SOs.  It can be done - I tried it, and succeeded within reasonable expectations - but if you want a tough character, with Regen you're starting from way behind.   There really is no reason to choose it over other concept friendly armor sets like WP or Inv.  

 

Powers are balanced - and have been notoriously rebalanced - over animation times.  This makes Regen a trap for the unwary and the newbie.  The game, for instance, allows you to create characters with profoundly negative synergy like an Energy Melee/Regen brute.  The animation traps that Energy Melee has been saddled with are inconsistent with a set whose survivability comes from click heals.   (So was Fire armor, which prompted the stripping and exile  of a fire/EM tanker back on Victory.)

 

I have two level 50 regen melee characters on HC.   One is a fire melee/regen scrapper, one where I remade a favorite concept from Victory here.  I made this character when Fire was ported to scrappers, to check it out.  The pairing has very little synergy; Fire melee lacks +defense or any meaningful control.  I had no experience of pre-nerf Regen.  Then and now she is a niche character.  On this one I did not bother with Fighting pool or anything similar; the paltry amount of defense and resistance you'd get from pool powers would be lipstick on a pig here.   She has several niches she fits.  She raids Hamidon when I want to have a scrapper there.  Neither defense nor resistance are all that helpful here, and her four click heals are.  She also is or was my go-to when something like Synapse is the weekly.  Regen actually shines in the under-35 game.   I also will run her on a Shadow Shard TF; she flies, and has Afterburner, and the one thing Regen has going for it is that damage is damage.  She still has the flaw of being insta-ganked by damage that comes in too fast to react, or caught in an animation trap.

 

The other was a science experiment, born of the last time Regen was the weekly topic.  This one is an attempt to build a tanking brute using Regen armor.  I chose Staff as the primary, because I specifically wanted busy animations for the test, although the advantages of Staff are probably mostly lost on /Regen.   If you have relatively deep reserves of merits and inf it can be done, but you're starting from behind compared with any other brute armor.  This one has enough smashing and lethal resistance -- around 65% -- to allow the trouble buttons to work.  Still wouldn't be my first choice for a TF master badge run, 

 

What I think the set needs is massive debuff resistance.  Regen needs to have native 90% resistance to -recharge, -HP, -regen, -recovery, -endurance, and -heal.  If you're going to have an armor set that depends on all of these click powers,   you need to preserve the opportunity to use them and let them work as described.   A broad spectrum increase in damage resistance, to buy the set time to do its thing, would also do a great deal to buy the set the time it needs. 

 

I have not played the Sentinel or the Stalker versions of the armor set.  I understand that the Sentinel version is fairly highly regarded.  And Sentinels of course have the advantage of range, which is the moral equivalent of resistance: it buys time and allows players to react. 

 

 

Edited by Heraclea
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57 minutes ago, HelBlaiz said:

A click happy set like regen really needs immediate effect on its powers. It can have an animation, but reconstruction's heal should hit 0.1 second after the click if not sooner (latency willing). Trading some peak spike performance potential (aka all of its uber clicks active at once) for some more sustained/base performance(regularly reapplied absorb or more resist) would be nice. Other than that, make all the regen it gives enhancable, since I remember something about only half of it improves with slotting.

A good idea, but this may be incompatible with the game we have, where serial animations appear to be baked into things. 

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I updated my initial post with actual numbers I had in mind. Copied content is in the spoiler block below. Overall, this is a buff to the regeneration and healing of the set. An improvement to debuff resistance performance: 77.85% Regen Debuff Resistance, 51.9% RechageTime and Recovery/Endurance Drain Debuff Resistance, and 25.95% Slow Movement Debuff Resistance. Increased Resistance to All Damage Type by 9.375% (for Brute numbers) and turned Revive into a 2nd MoG. I dunno though, between IH and 2 MoGs, I might have overbuffed it.

 

Spoiler

Here is a breakdown of what I'd like to see with Regeneration using a Brute as an example.

 

First a breakdown of what I've done: 

  • All 3 Auto powers have Res(Regeneration) included. For a brute this is 25.95% each for a final build total of 77.85% Res(Regeneration)
  • All 3 Auto powers have unenhanceable scaling Regeneration added as an effect. It begins to kick in when your health dips below 75%. For every 1% of HP lost after 75%, you gain 2% Regeneration (for each Auto power, so 6% total). This allows you a maximum of 150% Regeneration at 0% HP, so combining all 3 Auto powers, this is a maximum of 450% Regeneration at 0% HP, 300% Regeneration at 25% HP, 150% Regeneration at 50% HP, and 0% Regeneration at 75%+ HP.
  • I overhauled Quick Recovery and made it Perseverance. It's sort of a hybrid of Gamma Boost (scaling Regen/Recovery based on Health) and Inexhaustible (small max HP increase and various debuff resists).
  • I overhauled Revive. I made it Return to Glory, which is basically a 2nd Moment of Glory that you can use (longer cooldown though), but you can also use it as a Revive if you fall in battle.

 

I made numerous other changes, but I can explain them all below.

 

1703939830_FastHealing.jpg.c68fdb2b22d29dbb277baab4b7bade16.jpg

Changes: Added the unenhanceable scaling Regeneration and changed the Activate period from 10s to 1s, that way the scaling Regeneration will update more frequently.

 

 

Reconstruction.JPG.afe57b68f93df4c08b470d3a1da817af.JPG

Changes: Removed the 15% Res(Toxic) and replaced it with a 9.375% Res(All). This resistance is not enhanceable, which allows us to remove the "Not affected by outside buffs/debuffs" flag. This comes into play later with Instant Healing.

 

 

Perseverance.thumb.JPG.43ef196ae5902335418a9d561625053f.JPG

Changes: This is an overhaul of quick recovery. The 30% Recovery bonus will now scale with current HP% (I think this should be buffed up, but good enough for now). We add a +Max HP effect that is worth 10% base HP, with half of this effect being enhanceable. Also added the scaling regeneration (0-150%, based on current HP%). Added a 25.95% Resistance to Regeneration and Slows and a 51.9% Resistance to Endurance Drain. Also changed the activation period to 1s to accomodate the scaling Regeneration/Recovery.

 

 

497952177_NumbPain.JPG.266d39125ecda74ae95aa1c61924fba5.JPG

Changes: This used to be Dull Pain. I tweaked it to have a smaller cooldown (240s instead of 360s), but also it is a smaller buff to +Max HP (30% instead of 40%) and Heal (449.78 instead of 599.7). The reasons for this change, I wanted to make it easier to reach perma buff, now needing only +100% Recharge instead of +200% Recharge, and I wanted the self heal to be available more often. The net of the +Max HP does not change, thanks to Perseverance we will still read a +40% MaxHP, with half of that enhanceable.

 

 

Integration.JPG.0d11ffc0888aafd4eb91f5a42c7749ad.JPG

Changes:  Minor change here. There was a 50% Regeneration effect that was unenhanceable, I bumped it up to 100% Regeneration effect unenhanceable. This now gives the toggle 200% Regeneration, half unenhanceable.

 

 

Resilience.thumb.JPG.f57de84384af84b3fb2091762a7ca5c6.JPG

Changes: Added the unenhanceable scaling regeneration and added a 25.95% Resistance to Regeneration and Recharge debuffs. Also changed the Activate period from 10s to 1s to accomodate the scaling regeneration.

 

 

909426443_InstantHealing.JPG.0bf9e4804a530dade96125bd01f526fb.JPG

Changes: I reduced the cooldown from 650s to 600s. Also added a Strength to Regeneration/Heal buff for 90s. This will give a 29.8% strength boost to the regeneration of Fast Healing and Integration, and will give a 29.8% strength boost to the heals of Numb Pain and Reconstruction (which is why I made the Resistance unenhanceable).

 

 

1222375276_MomentofGlory.JPG.735871eba19fdbe6835d24eb398ddd31.JPG

Changes: Made this power the T8, increased the effect duration from 15s to 20s, and increased the cooldown from 240s to 300s. Also, I removed the Stun protection (since we already get that in 2 other powers) and replaced it with Fear protection. Also reduced the cast time from 2.57s to 1.5s.

 

 

500526057_ReturntoGlory.thumb.JPG.7d8b28a0c88e6fdeca1ec9f4d21ae7d9.JPG

Changes: This is an overhaul of Revive. You can still use this like a revive, but instead of getting 15s of Untouchable, you get 20s of Moment of Glory. You also can use this power while alive as a 2nd Moment of Glory. The cooldown was increased from 300s to 360s to accomodate the added capability (I probably should make it 420s or 480s, but I'll be generous to start).

 

Edited by Bopper
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3 hours ago, Bopper said:

I updated my initial post with actual numbers I had in mind. Copied content is in the spoiler block below. Overall, this is a buff to the regeneration and healing of the set. An improvement to debuff resistance performance: 77.85% Regen Debuff Resistance, 51.9% RechageTime and Recovery/Endurance Drain Debuff Resistance, and 25.95% Slow Movement Debuff Resistance. Increased Resistance to All Damage Type by 9.375% (for Brute numbers) and turned Revive into a 2nd MoG. I dunno though, between IH and 2 MoGs, I might have overbuffed it.

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Here is a breakdown of what I'd like to see with Regeneration using a Brute as an example.

 

First a breakdown of what I've done: 

  • All 3 Auto powers have Res(Regeneration) included. For a brute this is 25.95% each for a final build total of 77.85% Res(Regeneration)
  • All 3 Auto powers have unenhanceable scaling Regeneration added as an effect. It begins to kick in when your health dips below 75%. For every 1% of HP lost after 75%, you gain 2% Regeneration (for each Auto power, so 6% total). This allows you a maximum of 150% Regeneration at 0% HP, so combining all 3 Auto powers, this is a maximum of 450% Regeneration at 0% HP, 300% Regeneration at 25% HP, 150% Regeneration at 50% HP, and 0% Regeneration at 75%+ HP.
  • I overhauled Quick Recovery and made it Perseverance. It's sort of a hybrid of Gamma Boost (scaling Regen/Recovery based on Health) and Inexhaustible (small max HP increase and various debuff resists).
  • I overhauled Revive. I made it Return to Glory, which is basically a 2nd Moment of Glory that you can use (longer cooldown though), but you can also use it as a Revive if you fall in battle.

 

I made numerous other changes, but I can explain them all below.

 

1703939830_FastHealing.jpg.c68fdb2b22d29dbb277baab4b7bade16.jpg

Changes: Added the unenhanceable scaling Regeneration and changed the Activate period from 10s to 1s, that way the scaling Regeneration will update more frequently.

 

 

Reconstruction.JPG.afe57b68f93df4c08b470d3a1da817af.JPG

Changes: Removed the 15% Res(Toxic) and replaced it with a 9.375% Res(All). This resistance is not enhanceable, which allows us to remove the "Not affected by outside buffs/debuffs" flag. This comes into play later with Instant Healing.

 

 

Perseverance.thumb.JPG.43ef196ae5902335418a9d561625053f.JPG

Changes: This is an overhaul of quick recovery. The 30% Recovery bonus will now scale with current HP% (I think this should be buffed up, but good enough for now). We add a +Max HP effect that is worth 10% base HP, with half of this effect being enhanceable. Also added the scaling regeneration (0-150%, based on current HP%). Added a 25.95% Resistance to Regeneration and Slows and a 51.9% Resistance to Endurance Drain. Also changed the activation period to 1s to accomodate the scaling Regeneration/Recovery.

 

 

497952177_NumbPain.JPG.266d39125ecda74ae95aa1c61924fba5.JPG

Changes: This used to be Dull Pain. I tweaked it to have a smaller cooldown (240s instead of 360s), but also it is a smaller buff to +Max HP (30% instead of 40%) and Heal (449.78 instead of 599.7). The reasons for this change, I wanted to make it easier to reach perma buff, now needing only +100% Recharge instead of +200% Recharge, and I wanted the self heal to be available more often. The net of the +Max HP does not change, thanks to Perseverance we will still read a +40% MaxHP, with half of that enhanceable.

 

 

Integration.JPG.0d11ffc0888aafd4eb91f5a42c7749ad.JPG

Changes:  Minor change here. There was a 50% Regeneration effect that was unenhanceable, I bumped it up to 100% Regeneration effect unenhanceable. This now gives the toggle 200% Regeneration, half unenhanceable.

 

 

Resilience.thumb.JPG.f57de84384af84b3fb2091762a7ca5c6.JPG

Changes: Added the unenhanceable scaling regeneration and added a 25.95% Resistance to Regeneration and Recharge debuffs. Also changed the Activate period from 10s to 1s to accomodate the scaling regeneration.

 

 

909426443_InstantHealing.JPG.0bf9e4804a530dade96125bd01f526fb.JPG

Changes: I reduced the cooldown from 650s to 600s. Also added a Strength to Regeneration/Heal buff for 90s. This will give a 29.8% strength boost to the regeneration of Fast Healing and Integration, and will give a 29.8% strength boost to the heals of Numb Pain and Reconstruction (which is why I made the Resistance unenhanceable).

 

 

1222375276_MomentofGlory.JPG.735871eba19fdbe6835d24eb398ddd31.JPG

Changes: Made this power the T8, increased the effect duration from 15s to 20s, and increased the cooldown from 240s to 300s. Also, I removed the Stun protection (since we already get that in 2 other powers) and replaced it with Fear protection. Also reduced the cast time from 2.57s to 1.5s.

 

 

500526057_ReturntoGlory.thumb.JPG.7d8b28a0c88e6fdeca1ec9f4d21ae7d9.JPG

Changes: This is an overhaul of Revive. You can still use this like a revive, but instead of getting 15s of Untouchable, you get 20s of Moment of Glory. You also can use this power while alive as a 2nd Moment of Glory. The cooldown was increased from 300s to 360s to accomodate the added capability (I probably should make it 420s or 480s, but I'll be generous to start).

 

All I can say is that I would be super excited to play Regen if these changes were made. Honestly, in the world of some builds being able to softcap all types/positions AND get capped or near capped resistance to several types I don’t think this would be too crazy. Regen and heal would still be the main sustain of this set, but it would actually be really good at it consistently. 
 

Devs, I motion that we implement @Bopper rework. 

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3 hours ago, Bopper said:

I updated my initial post with actual numbers I had in mind. Copied content is in the spoiler block below. Overall, this is a buff to the regeneration and healing of the set. An improvement to debuff resistance performance: 77.85% Regen Debuff Resistance, 51.9% RechageTime and Recovery/Endurance Drain Debuff Resistance, and 25.95% Slow Movement Debuff Resistance. Increased Resistance to All Damage Type by 9.375% (for Brute numbers) and turned Revive into a 2nd MoG. I dunno though, between IH and 2 MoGs, I might have overbuffed it.

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Here is a breakdown of what I'd like to see with Regeneration using a Brute as an example.

 

First a breakdown of what I've done: 

  • All 3 Auto powers have Res(Regeneration) included. For a brute this is 25.95% each for a final build total of 77.85% Res(Regeneration)
  • All 3 Auto powers have unenhanceable scaling Regeneration added as an effect. It begins to kick in when your health dips below 75%. For every 1% of HP lost after 75%, you gain 2% Regeneration (for each Auto power, so 6% total). This allows you a maximum of 150% Regeneration at 0% HP, so combining all 3 Auto powers, this is a maximum of 450% Regeneration at 0% HP, 300% Regeneration at 25% HP, 150% Regeneration at 50% HP, and 0% Regeneration at 75%+ HP.
  • I overhauled Quick Recovery and made it Perseverance. It's sort of a hybrid of Gamma Boost (scaling Regen/Recovery based on Health) and Inexhaustible (small max HP increase and various debuff resists).
  • I overhauled Revive. I made it Return to Glory, which is basically a 2nd Moment of Glory that you can use (longer cooldown though), but you can also use it as a Revive if you fall in battle.

 

I made numerous other changes, but I can explain them all below.

 

1703939830_FastHealing.jpg.c68fdb2b22d29dbb277baab4b7bade16.jpg

Changes: Added the unenhanceable scaling Regeneration and changed the Activate period from 10s to 1s, that way the scaling Regeneration will update more frequently.

 

 

Reconstruction.JPG.afe57b68f93df4c08b470d3a1da817af.JPG

Changes: Removed the 15% Res(Toxic) and replaced it with a 9.375% Res(All). This resistance is not enhanceable, which allows us to remove the "Not affected by outside buffs/debuffs" flag. This comes into play later with Instant Healing.

 

 

Perseverance.thumb.JPG.43ef196ae5902335418a9d561625053f.JPG

Changes: This is an overhaul of quick recovery. The 30% Recovery bonus will now scale with current HP% (I think this should be buffed up, but good enough for now). We add a +Max HP effect that is worth 10% base HP, with half of this effect being enhanceable. Also added the scaling regeneration (0-150%, based on current HP%). Added a 25.95% Resistance to Regeneration and Slows and a 51.9% Resistance to Endurance Drain. Also changed the activation period to 1s to accomodate the scaling Regeneration/Recovery.

 

 

497952177_NumbPain.JPG.266d39125ecda74ae95aa1c61924fba5.JPG

Changes: This used to be Dull Pain. I tweaked it to have a smaller cooldown (240s instead of 360s), but also it is a smaller buff to +Max HP (30% instead of 40%) and Heal (449.78 instead of 599.7). The reasons for this change, I wanted to make it easier to reach perma buff, now needing only +100% Recharge instead of +200% Recharge, and I wanted the self heal to be available more often. The net of the +Max HP does not change, thanks to Perseverance we will still read a +40% MaxHP, with half of that enhanceable.

 

 

Integration.JPG.0d11ffc0888aafd4eb91f5a42c7749ad.JPG

Changes:  Minor change here. There was a 50% Regeneration effect that was unenhanceable, I bumped it up to 100% Regeneration effect unenhanceable. This now gives the toggle 200% Regeneration, half unenhanceable.

 

 

Resilience.thumb.JPG.f57de84384af84b3fb2091762a7ca5c6.JPG

Changes: Added the unenhanceable scaling regeneration and added a 25.95% Resistance to Regeneration and Recharge debuffs. Also changed the Activate period from 10s to 1s to accomodate the scaling regeneration.

 

 

909426443_InstantHealing.JPG.0bf9e4804a530dade96125bd01f526fb.JPG

Changes: I reduced the cooldown from 650s to 600s. Also added a Strength to Regeneration/Heal buff for 90s. This will give a 29.8% strength boost to the regeneration of Fast Healing and Integration, and will give a 29.8% strength boost to the heals of Numb Pain and Reconstruction (which is why I made the Resistance unenhanceable).

 

 

1222375276_MomentofGlory.JPG.735871eba19fdbe6835d24eb398ddd31.JPG

Changes: Made this power the T8, increased the effect duration from 15s to 20s, and increased the cooldown from 240s to 300s. Also, I removed the Stun protection (since we already get that in 2 other powers) and replaced it with Fear protection. Also reduced the cast time from 2.57s to 1.5s.

 

 

500526057_ReturntoGlory.thumb.JPG.7d8b28a0c88e6fdeca1ec9f4d21ae7d9.JPG

Changes: This is an overhaul of Revive. You can still use this like a revive, but instead of getting 15s of Untouchable, you get 20s of Moment of Glory. You also can use this power while alive as a 2nd Moment of Glory. The cooldown was increased from 300s to 360s to accomodate the added capability (I probably should make it 420s or 480s, but I'll be generous to start).

 

 

I like it. I think Regen is the perfect yoyo set. You watch that green bar go down, then press a button and it comes back up. You faceplant on the floor, then pop back up. Having the best healing and the best regen/slows/end resistances fit it well.

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The reason toggle IH was so much better than the click version is not only because it was perma.  It’s also because of how people try to use it as a click.

 

I feel like a lot of people try to use IH as a save click.  Clicking it when they start to notice they are in trouble, hoping it will save them.  It’s much better used as a preventative click.  Proactive instead of reactive.  As a toggle it filled that proactive role and performed much higher.  

 

Perma IH is obviously much better than non perma, but if you want to get the most mileage out of the current version, that is how it should be used.  Current MoG is the same way, much better proactive than reactive.  Regen is a set that requires a lot more awareness than a lot of other sets.  It’s not “set and forget” like most sets and that’s why I like it.  I don’t want it to function the same as other sets.  

 

I liked @Bopper‘s suggestions.  I want to see a slew of debuff resistances.  I want to see some form of perma +hp.  I want a regen tank!

 

I don’t want to see absorb.  I don’t absorb, I regen!  Perma +hp will help with alpha strikes and regen rate/amount.  Get away with that absorb stuff.  

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8 minutes ago, Brutal Justice said:

I don’t want to see absorb.  I don’t absorb, I regen!  Perma +hp will help with alpha strikes and regen rate/amount.  Get away with that absorb stuff.

I full-heartedly agree with this statement. Absorb is not thematic to regen, despite the fact folks say it is. Regen takes incoming damage and quickly heals from it, Absorb removes damage from ever getting through in the first place. It's complete opposites. Resistance is closer to being thematic to regeneration, which is why I added the 2nd Res(All) effect to the set. 

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I find Regen is quite different (other than the Sentinel version) from other sets. It is much more active and requires much more attention. Overall, it is less reliable than other defensive sets.

 

On the one hand, it has the best auto resist power in the game (Resilience), on the other, it doesn't have any other resists to make it meaningful. On the one hand it has huge Regen numbers (but only when IH is up, which is less than 60% of the time in a high recharge build). It comes close to capping HP with one power, but you have to remember to click that power to maintain it because it is one of the few armor sets that "requires" Hasten. It has the best T9 for an armor set in that it covers the holes in the set, but it also has one of the lowest RC:Dur ratios (most sets are 18:100, MoG is 6.25:100 - about 1/3 the average).

 

I enjoy playing Regen, but 55ish HP per second for non-IH regen is not noticeably different from 45ish HP per second for one opponent RttC WP. And WP has so many more layers.

 

What would I like to see changed?

  • I'd like to see it maintain its identity. That means keeping most of the clicks.
  • I'd like for it to be more reliable. Preferably through increasing the Regen across the board, and maybe some reactive resistance?
  • I'd like for recharge times to be adjusted. Reduce Instant Healing's recharge to 270s, Revive's recharge to 150s, and adjust MoG to 180s with 30s duration (all other armor T9s should be adjusted to 360s with 60s duration - and they should also be adjusted to fill in holes.)

 

I know there are still going to be issues with taking the Alpha strike, but that's why knowing when to hit MoG is important...

Edited by Zepp
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Took a minute but I found it.

Edit: I thought it would link to the right page.  Page 2 has the important stats. 

 

 

I will link this page every time.  @Galaxy Brain did some quality work that everybody considering regen’s performance and proposed changes should read.  

 

Sentinel version just makes regen more lazy with lower performance than the current scrapper version.  Displayed by the scrapinel numbers at the bottom of page 2.  

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Regen for Sentinels is great purely for one reason: it has an Absorb power. This helps offset alphas, which have always been Regen's weakness, and tics fast enough to provide a buffer against small bits of damage which lets your HP replenish underneath unmolested. Since the melee sets don't have this option, they're much weaker in comparison. That said, Moment of Glory is a great power in the set as it provides a tool that Regen doesn't already have in spades, which is something I think should be considered for other armor T9s as an example, though I think it could stand to have its recharge time lowered and maybe even its duration lowered a bit to compensate. Turn it more into a "moment" rather than something that lasts long enough to clear most of a room. I understand that might not be a popular opinion, though. MoG could also use an animation time reduction.

 

Another problem with Regen stems from the player's focus of "requiring" a set to reach the defense softcap for end-game content, and that makes Regen the hardest and most expensive set in the game to achieve this due to it having no innate ways to get there without IO bonuses and pool powers. That might be worth the tradeoff considering how strong Regen is once you're unhittable (as noted by MoG), but it may be worth consideration somewhere.

 

Lastly, and this is kinda minor, but the set just completely falls over to -Regen effects. I suppose that makes some amount of sense, but it really needs more -Regen resistance as it has nothing else to fall back on. Absorb helps counteract this (and is another reason why Sentinel Regen is considered the best version of the set), but it's not perfect. The click-heals are on too long of a timer usually in order to stave off -Regen effects, too.

 

As an aside, I think it's unfair for a set called "Regeneration" to be worse at this effect than other sets during fights that matter, like when you're surrounded. Willpower being called "what Regeneration wishes it could be" is pretty cruel.

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9 hours ago, Bopper said:

I'll add more to this later with numbers, but in general Regeneration should have high levels of resistance to regen and heal debuffs. It should also have scaling regeneration based on health levels (similar to Super Reflexes with scaling resists).

 

Amazing work 🙂

 

Fear resistance, Recharge resistance, this begin to have interesting things.

Imo, regen should have all the debuff resistance on top of the scaling regen : allowing people to build as they want / can and symbolising the "perfect body".

 

tbh, i dont really know, Regen needs ton of love cause for the moment, the best regen is a Bio armor with the Alpha aura in green on the body... 😕

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The Toggle Instant Healing was hard to balance since the alpha strike was basically the only thing that could kill a Regenerator. If they could take the first volley then they wouldn't die to anything else that got thrown at them. I dunno how to fix it but neither did the official powers guys, apparently! Make it cost a horrible, horrible amount per tick? A negative recovery debuff to discourage just clicking it and forgetting it and explained away as being the cost of the regenerator throwing their body into overdrive? Regen is a set whose blue bar never moves...
It's so darn click-oriented. Very active set, and a wild ride with how the green bar bounces compared to defense sets that require less work to work.
And Revive is just poop. I think the Sentinel version would heal you like you popped an Insp if you weren't downed, right? Other versions should have that change ported over imo. Powers that require faceplants are kind of powers I never liked.

Edited by UpandAtom
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12 hours ago, GM ColdSpark said:

So it's a good set (in my very humble opinion of course), not without its issues for sure, but one that brings something different to the party.

This

 

---------

 

Also, lots of interesting ideas and revamp visions mentioned. Some look a bit too strong approaching power creep.

 

I believe currently

  • Perma Dull Pain doesn't require perma Hasten.
  • can have 600% regeneration before Instant Healing.
  • Pairs very well with some sets.
  • Instant healing can push regeneration to 1600 for 90 seconds.
  • Reconstruction can heal over 50% every 18-ish seconds.
  • Quick Recovery makes endurance nearly a non issue
  • Moment of Glory can add 15 seconds to either side of Instant Healing
  • adding something like Shadow Meld can add another 15 seconds to either side of Instant Healing
  • Resilience makes a great mule

 

then add incarnates, accolades, p2w, etc.. and of course Revive is skip-able

 

 

Edited by Troo
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"Homecoming is not perfect but it is still better than the alternative.. at least so far" - Unknown  (Wise words Unknown!)

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Okay, here's my thoughts on the matter:
1.  Regen is VERY click-heavy, which is okay but it also needs those clicks more.

2. Regen has no resistance to regen debuff, not that I'm aware of. This is bad.

2a. Regen's debuff resistance is in general atrocious. In that there isn't any. Ever.

3. Regen has a very particular feel to it... either you have enough base Regen that your green bar is full all fight and you don't care or you do not and wind up using all your clicks and praying. There is no middle-ground.

4. Regen's weakness of sheer incoming damage is strange because there's no one band of the game where it's more or less prelevant. Two boss spawns unluckily close together? Surprise warwolf? Did not see the lieutenant at the back of the spawn? Unlucky patrol? All these things can and do mess up regenerators.

5. points 3 and 4 might read like things that are holding the set back, but they're also an essential part of its identity and playstyle.

 

My thought is that the set needs some mix of debuff resistance and better passive/click balance. Either increase the passives and toggles so that the clickies are less needed, or improve the clickies so that they're the for-real backbone of the set. Right now it doesn't really have one backbone, passives/toggles and clickies are both very reliant on the other on a regular basis, neither one really feels like a bonus.


If broadening regen is needed, here's my take on it: Regeneration as a mechanic is unique because it doesn't care where the damage comes from or what kind of damage it does: all it cares about is that the green bar is not full. In effect, it's a mechanic that gives even survivability against any source of damage, and if it were to be widened that's the theme I'd want to follow. Absorption is an easy addition, but I also feel that absorption should get its own defense set someday. General damage resistance against all would keep the feeling of 'doesn't care about source' if needed, but again this is only IF broadening the set is honestly truly needed.

 

I don't know if broadening the set is needed, but the nature of CoH is that prevention is better than cure quite literally. If nothing else, it could be considered if other changes don't feel right.

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As part of my next round of testing focusing on Armor sets, I decided to pit Regen vs some contemporaries on a Scrapper.

 

Using SO's only, wading into a group of 8 enemies (1 boss, 1 lt, 6 minions) with all S/L attacks without debuffs just to see how the damage soaking abilities of each armor set ranks. Breakdown of the enemies:

  • Minions: 1 light Smashing Melee, 1 light lethal Ranged
  • LTs: 1 Light and 1 Medium melee (both smashing), 1 Medium Ranged, 1 ranged AoE (both lethal)
  • Boss: Light, Med, Heavy, and PBAoE Melee (smashing), 1 Medium Ranged, 1 ranged AoE (both lethal)

I also ran Rad Melee with the only attack used being Irradiated Ground with 2 end SO's and 1 Acc SO just to deal chip damage over time to see if that'd be a factor / help emulate some attacking. The armor sets were also slotted optimally with SO's, with Tier 9's not being included nor Rez powers

 

Results:

 

image.thumb.png.2b4d5c041297a71a19849058d20c15f9.png

 

Invulnerability takes the cake as one would expect vs S/L enemies, but surprisingly did not have the best survival time. This is mainly due to luck, as I would always save Dull Pain till I am near half HP lost and pop that for a refresh, which could dramatically extend my life or simply be a short delay. It at least had the best "worst" time.

 

Regeneration with Instant Healing running as I walk into the encounter was the next best, with the next highest average time to death, but generally being right behind Invuln using only Dull Pain while Regen with IH still had to use DP and then Reconstruction the moment I saw a large chunk missing again.

 

Elec Armor and Willpower are neck and neck with one providing more offensive utility with End Drain actually mattering vs the boss and the added damage aura wiping away minions, while WP opted for a more balanced array of defenses. The 10 runs a piece showed that at least at this level /Elec has a scootch more survival thanks to offense.

 

Regen without Instant Healing is next with a 10 second avg gap between it and Willpower. Needing to use Dull Pain and the Reconstruction almost instantly many times lead to poor scores, with an especially bad 5s death on the books. What is good here is that given that Regen has no damage type interactions aside from a bit higher Toxic Res, that in reality with more damage types it likely has much more consistent performance compared to even Invuln.... with IH on at least.

 

Lastly, Super Reflexes even with 30% def to all positions would often just need a few hits to be taken down. Essentially tied with Regen, it loses out on consistency here by a tad (despite both being top consistency performers lol) as well as the actual averages. The scaling resists barely mattered when you only had a handful of hitpoints to defend to be honest, and with 0 sustain ability it was just a matter of time until luck ran out.

 

 

 

So, how does this relate to Regen? Well, from this small sample size with some of the more "defined" sets (Balance between Res/Def, nearly all Res, nearly all Def, Regen2.0) we see that Regen has the potential to hang up on top given a signature power is active. Its just the uptime there leaves a LOT to be desired. 

 

 

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@Galaxy Brain Moment of Glory to soak the alpha followed by Instant healing with Dull Pain, Reconstruction, & another MoG should be able to push the best sets.

 

 

Typically we wouldn't include a t9 in such comparisons. Moment of Glory just happens to be a crashless short duration that seems intended to be used often to soak alphas. (maybe I play weird)

 

Recharge, recharge, recharge..

 

Edited by Troo

"Homecoming is not perfect but it is still better than the alternative.. at least so far" - Unknown  (Wise words Unknown!)

Si vis pacem, para bellum

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My biggest issue with Regeneration is being locked into quite a bit of animation time in order to stay alive. This wouldn't be a problem if Regen actually offered above-par survivability or offense, but it doesn't do either so a Regen character ends up having to choose between sub-par offense or defense. Another huge issue with Regen is that it's extremely weak against debuffs, especially -Regen, -Heal and -Rech out of which the last one is very common. Also given the lack of innate Defense, most of those debuffs are likely to land. Finally, we get to its main weakness: spike damage, which is prevalent everywhere in the game unless you play at very low difficulty settings. No Defense means that at +3 (+4, but let's assume basically everyone playing +4 has Alpha) enemies have 65-85% chance to hit depending on their rank, so jumping in to a full spawn means you'll get hit by a majority of them. This extremely short reaction time brings me to the clickies, their effects should kick in instantly, as in, when you click the power, not when the animation ends.

 

Thematically the set is cool, but every time I play it the performance just makes me wish I was playing something else instead. Bopper's list of changes looks pretty good, though.

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