Is Casual Building Worthless?

[drgantz]

I've seen many builds in which the character is built to every detail including every mod.

I prefer to build or convert IOs as I receive each recipe.

Would this make my character so weak that it would be worthless in an endgame group?

[Erratic1]

Depends on what you consider endgame.

 

If running regular level 50 missions and taskforces at modestly boosted or less levels is your thing you will be fine.  If you want to solo +4×8 ITF, you may need a bit more.

 

I have a 50 Tanker who I have not yet started the set IO process on who is perfectly fine soloing +2×6 radio missions in Peregrine Island. For harder content I would break out his fully set based big brother.

[TalynDerre]

Yeah, as long as you are willing to play the game and are paying some attention, a level 50 without any enhancements can still be a contributing member of a group.  I know I'd much rather group with someone who has only a handful of enhancements but pays attention and sticks with the group than a fully kitted-out person who sits in a corner or runs off on their own.

[KaizenSoze]

23 minutes ago, drgantz said:

I've seen many builds in which the character is built to every detail including every mod.

I prefer to build or convert IOs as I receive each recipe.

Would this make my character so weak that it would be worthless in an endgame group?

You'll be in fine in non-hardmode play, which is the vast majority.

 

Just set the solo difficultly to what you can handle. Remember you can always turn off bosses.

 

I almost always level my characters on SOs till 50. And for a while afterwards.

[Shred Monkey]

Honestly, it is true that you might feel worthless.  However, that's not only a result of your build.  What I mean is, if you have the greatest build of all time, you still might feel worthless in CoH because a strong endgame team kills so fast you're only throwing out 3-4 attacks per spawn and maybe 2 cycles of your attack chain on an AV and that's only if you're really aggressive.  A speed ITF run of 12ish minutes goes so fast there's no way every player actually participates in every objective.  At best they're leap-frogging each other or splitting up on objectives.  I know personally I feel like sometimes I just can't run through caves fast enough to keep up.  

 

I think a more important question is how much is it going to bother you when it happens?  If it bothers you a lot, then put more time in your build and then probably play on smaller teams and/or higher difficulty.  Some people just skip endgame and play mid-level content because they find that more fun.

 

It's really up to you.  One of the great things about this game is that you do have the option of playing this game however you want.  You'll still find teams who welcome you.  Personally I wouldn't have a clue if my team members are playing toons without full enhancements.  I don't really pay attention to them in that way. 

 

I do recommend including a way to stealth to mission objectives in your build.  If you find yourself on a team where you're the only one who can't skip to the end of a mission, it is likely you'll get left out of a end boss fight at some point.  

 

[cranebump]

REALLY depends on your goals. The obvious has already been ably covered, above (particularly when it comes to endgame play). If you're running the game in straight-up default mode, you should be able to handle most of the content (depending on many factors, including AT/powersets and so forth). I've been running "underpowered" chars on the basic content a great deal via our Long Riders SG. Schedules cause most of work to be solo. Most of the time, I can handle basic mishes with ease. Harder ones might require some Insps. There's the rare instance of meeting something that just whomps my ass, but one can always call for help (and get it pretty easily). 

 

No shame in what you run, really. Feeling worthless is often self-applied. Even on a team that's steamrolling, with a toon who is clearly not on par with the min-max gurus, you can always throw in something useful (a Team TP, an ATT, playing free safety on a speed run). It's your game, and it's a beautiful one, once you remove the unnecessary burden of expectation.

Edited July 21, 2022 by cranebump

[lemming]

I feel a project that might be worthwhile is a SO build list.   A lot of the usual builds with a SO only one (which can be boosted with Basic IOs...)

 

I tend to respec at 50 and put in generic IOs.  Normally a smattering of End Procs since running out of endurance to me is worse than running out of health. 😄

Eventually, they'll get a spec'd out build if I want to put them thru rougher content.  (Out of 100+ chars, 7 are tuned with maybe another dozen with some sets)

 

The basic build tends to do fine for most content unless I'm trying to do +4/x8 stuff, but you can still contribute to a team doing such.  And usually the non-close combat chars can skate by just fine. 

[ZemX]

35 minutes ago, lemming said:

The basic build tends to do fine for most content unless I'm trying to do +4/x8 stuff, but you can still contribute to a team doing such.  And usually the non-close combat chars can skate by just fine. 

 

It's even not that bad for all close combat chars either.  It's mainly Tankers and Brutes who attract a lot of aggro that can be dicey at highest difficulty.  They can't turn off the automatic taunt in their attacks.  I've found it's best not to be sidekicked as a tanker on a team doing +4/x8, for example, until I've got a good I/O build... or at least half of one.

[Seed22]

1 hour ago, drgantz said:

I've seen many builds in which the character is built to every detail including every mod.

I prefer to build or convert IOs as I receive each recipe.

Would this make my character so weak that it would be worthless in an endgame group?

No, not at all!

 
 

Thats just standard building if I’m understanding you correctly. I did that with all my primary account 50s, and they all eventually had completed builds. I do want to say though, you should be careful with HM content. Thats designed, outside of 1 and maybe 2-star, fully kitted 50s( T3-T4 incarnates alongside this are for 3 and 4 star HM runs) 

 

Other than that and maybe Master-Of( and even then, most likely not an issue), you should be fine endgame.

 

 

Want to know what defeats even hardcore CoH vets: Reading. No seriously, people fail things not because of IO’s and whatnot, but because they don’t read 😛

Edited July 21, 2022 by Seed22

[lemming]

2 hours ago, ZemX said:

 

It's even not that bad for all close combat chars either.  It's mainly Tankers and Brutes who attract a lot of aggro that can be dicey at highest difficulty.  They can't turn off the automatic taunt in their attacks.  I've found it's best not to be sidekicked as a tanker on a team doing +4/x8, for example, until I've got a good I/O build... or at least half of one.

True, though I play a lot of scrappers that get smacked by an AOE if I don't watch it.   And with the right composition of team where buffs are happening, it usually works out fine.

 

And a good measuring stick would be the Classic Lord Recluse SF where sets are meaningless.

[Sovera]

Useless is a strong word. You may not be as sturdy or do as much damage as you could, but that's not useless. Game's simple and easy enough that uber min maxing is not required.

[Without_Pause]

My default builds until HC were using only level 25 common IOs and even during HC that took time to add in anything not common. I've played hundreds of hours of level 50 content with those common builds.

[laudwic]

Your fine.  The game is balanced based on SOs.  The only time where I say you kinda have to have IO sets and really plan your builds is if your playing a Dominator because you need to plan to get your recharge high enough for domination to be permanent.  

 

With that said, use the auction house, look at the hcwiki at the list of enhancement sets.  Getting IO sets is not hard or expensive to get IOs for your character.  I, personally, enjoy it.   Generally each character pays for the next.  I don't bother with purple sets but I do fine.

[Ironblade]

23 hours ago, drgantz said:

I prefer to build or convert IOs as I receive each recipe.

Would this make my character so weak that it would be worthless in an endgame group?

Absolutely NOT.

Having said that, I would like to expand on two particular points.

 

1)  A little bit of planning goes a long way.  I'm not saying you should download Mids and min-max your characters.  I plan my builds in an Excel spreadsheet once I get to around level 30 and have a feel for how it plays and what shortcomings it has.  If I'm having END issues, I can build to fix that.  If I'm too squishy, I can build for that.  Etc.  So I feel that SOME planning ahead will have you much more satisfied with the performance of your characters.

 

2)  If you plan to run something like Relentless Aeon SF or be the lead tank in certain incarnate trials, that's a different story.  This is not just 'end game content'; it's end game hard/challenge mode.  You'll want to build more carefully if you're going to do the absolute hardest content in the game and/or LEAD end game content.  If that's not in your plans, you're fine.

 

Planning your build can have a dramatic impact on how the character plays.

- Lots of people build for their 'squishy' characters to have defense over 45%.  Not easy, but big impact.

- My character Toggle Man runs 18 toggles in combat and has no END problems.  That was pretty cheap and easy (more than +50% recovery, not including procs).

- I built a beam rifle/kinetics corrupter JUST for Really Hard Way badge runs.  He is built to maximize damage - his own and the team's.

- I have an invuln tank with +370% regeneration.  That was pretty easy; regen is generally the first set bonus.

 

And this doesn't have to be expensive.  An optimized, high-end build can cost a half billion inf.  My invuln tank with 370% regen cost between 30-40 million.  Think about whether you have a character that you like, but if only they had ???????  (better recharge, more endurance, some defense, etc).

[Bill Z Bubba]

Build how ya like. If you're runnin with folks you enjoy hanging out with it doesn't matter at all. It's only when *you* decide that your character's performance matters that it matters.

[Yomo Kimyata]

Nothing is "worthless", in my opinion.  (unless you are going completely unslotted until you level enough to load up your 50.)

 

But building is one of the mini-games, and there has been enough power creep over the years that it is trivial to come up with these fantastic builds that essentially incorporate 8 characters in one.  So you will probably almost always team with someone whose build is numerically superior to yours.

 

And that doesn't matter one bit.

[Clave Dark 5]

Don't let the forums here fool you - most posters here are very min-max focused and tend to ignore anything that's not, but the forum posters tend to be a small minority of players.  Most of us stumble along with only a vague enough idea of all the ins and outs and still manage to do just fine.  🙂

Edited July 23, 2022 by Clave Dark 5

[Hyperstrike]

4 hours ago, Clave Dark 5 said:

most posters here are very min-max focused and tend to ignore anything that's not,

Awww.  You say that like it's a Bad Thing℠!

 

 

😉

[oedipus_tex]

14 hours ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

Build how ya like. If you're runnin with folks you enjoy hanging out with it doesn't matter at all. It's only when *you* decide that your character's performance matters that it matters.

 

 

This is excellently stated.

 

One of the best things about City of Heroes and why I think it retains a fervent playerbase 20 years later is you can explore outlandish builds if you want to. Or not. The payoff is there if you want to explore it. But you don't have to. It's a fine line of balance I haven't found in any other game.

 

Is it perfect? No, it's messy, but messy in a really great way. So IO. Or don't. Or fall somewhere in the middle. They all basically work.  

[Six-Six]

I'm not part of the min-max camp, so here's my two inf:

I've seen many builds in which the character is built to every detail including every mod.
I tend to build my toons so that they have enough def/res to survive a hit or two. I play mostly blappers and brutinators so they like to get into the thick of things even with very little inherent def/res. That said, I spend a lot of time and effort chasing down set bonuses to get enough def (around 20-25%) and/or res (45% or so). I'll also make sure I'm not winded after every tangle, so taking care of recovery at around level 20-30 takes next priority. last I build is damage (sometimes I make do with just an accuracy SO slotted until 30-40. starting at level 30, enemies will keep getting stronger (as well as my personal mandatory notoriety settings escalation), so I keep on piling damage towards the higher levels. I also tend to prefer single attacks over AoEs and PBAoEs.

I prefer to build or convert IOs as I receive each recipe.
I'm worse. I prefer to have the proc of an IO in multiples of 5 (level 10, 15, 20, 25...). Also I take the IO's name into consideration. I will slot Thunderstrike in an elec toon, and slot Detonation and Artillery in an AR toon. Most IO recipes I craft, convert and sell so I can buy the attuned ones that I want or need. some of the pricier ones, like def and res IOs I craft regardless of level and buy a catalyst. the free recipe drops + free (or very cheap) salvage + catalyst is usually cheaper than a 4-6million one from the AH.

 

Would this make my character so weak that it would be worthless in an endgame group?
The game is more than just numbers and meta. strategy and play style also factors in. I rarely use purples or PVP sets other than the popular globals and procs or even ATOs. I just stick to yellows (uncommon) and oranges (rare) sets and I can still hold my own as long as I'm not ganked... and this is on +1 at 20 and +4 at 50. Some uncommon sets are just as good as rares, and some have set bonuses that are better for my build.

If by "endgame group" you're referring to iTrials and league-sized undertakings, then a build that lets you survive enough to see the next mob is good enough. If it lets you do what you like to do (buff or heal a teammate, debuff or cc a mob, obliterate anything that moves) you're good to go. If you meant "level 53 radio missions in PI" then SOs would suffice in the steamroll-a-fest.

"Worthless" is a slippery slope of self depreciation. No, the team doesn't NEED you there and won't miss you if you're not there; but being there and doing whatever small part adds to everyone's fun, especially if you yourself are having fun... unless you're an ass-hat, then go have fun by yourself. 😉

 

 

[Snarky]

Always comes down to how you play.  Do you play "vanilla"?  solo, x1/+0?  You'll have a great time.  Are you trying to keep up with badging speedrunners on +4/x8?  You'll be miserable.

[KaizenSoze]

11 hours ago, Clave Dark 5 said:

Don't let the forums here fool you - most posters here are very min-max focused and tend to ignore anything that's not, but the forum posters tend to be a small minority of players.  Most of us stumble along with only a vague enough idea of all the ins and outs and still manage to do just fine.  🙂

I tend to be an 80%. I will min-max some aspects of my builds like durability. 

 

But I also build with lower level content in mind. If my builds cannot do well in a Posi 1 and a ITF, then I will lose interest. 

[Hyperstrike]

20 hours ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

Build how ya like. If you're runnin with folks you enjoy hanging out with it doesn't matter at all. It's only when *you* decide that your character's performance matters that it matters.

Exactly.  Certain people *COUGH*COUGH*COUGH* (why is my nose itching?) can be rather...INSISTENT about "the RIGHT way to build".

And while there's something to it, it's not the end-all and be-all.

On top of that, teaming tends to make all "weaknesses" shallow.

[Bill Z Bubba]

27 minutes ago, Hyperstrike said:

Certain people *COUGH*COUGH*COUGH* (why is my nose itching?) can be rather...INSISTENT about "the RIGHT way to build".

 

I resemble that remark. I mean, of COURSE, that extra second or two off a pylon time MATTERS!!!

[oedipus_tex]

I also think a lot of people post on the boards are theoretical builds, not what they likely are running in the real game. I've posted probably 100s more builds than I have actually completed. The build is the destination, and most characters never actually get there. 

 

I have over 1000 characters at this point, with one I would consider to have a "complete" build, about 10 who are mostly complete, 20 who are partial, and the others who are in a grab bag of various states.

 

If you're ever curious about how to do this with a Dominator specifically I wrote a guide a few years ago: