Sins of the Devs are visited upon the players

[Shred Monkey]

I think the things Warpact listed along with the things Astralock listed are what turned homecoming into a superhero sandbox game.  What I mean by this is that anyone could basically make any build they wanted and play it to crush all enemies with very little time and effort invested.  Resources to create a build are so easy to obtain, it's basically free.  Relatively speaking, it's more like Minecraft Creator mode then Survival mode.  It's fun... but not really meeting the traditional "RPG game" model.  The only way players can get the RPG game model was to make a decision to ignore some options, (farming, P2W items, some forms of marketeering, etc) and create our own challenge modes.  This is something many, many people did and this has been working just fine.  For the most part we're all getting along.

 

This latest release, however has shifted the balance a bit.  There are now endgame challenges that not everyone can just fall into with any group of 8 players and succeed.  There were also some tweaks that affected the easiest way to get to 50 (note: Did powerleveling in AE actually get nerfed?  I personally ignore that part of the game, but since people are complaining I'm assuming it worked).  While everything available before page 4 still exists, people who played this as a pure sandbox game seem to be a getting upset.

 

Personally, I don't want a sandbox game, so I've never been a big fan of all those changes Warpact and Astralock listed.  I won't go so far as calling them mistakes.  But I didn't like them.  I didn't agree with them when I first saw them and just accepted them over time.  However, I do like the latest release very much.

Edited August 30, 2022 by Shred Monkey

[Greycat]

2 hours ago, The_Warpact said:

True.

 

 

One thing of note saying you can still play a SO build anymore is a joke. Not that I can recall the HC staff have ever tried sticking to that unrealistic mantra.

 

Really?

 

Funny, there was a whole SG of us doing that.

 

Then again, if your definition of "play" is limited to "Must be at superubermax difficulty soloing Hamidon," no, it won't work.  If it's "Completing content and going from 1-50?" Very doable, thanks.

 

General comments:

We hvae a mix of "it's too easy" and "quit adding hardmode top end content." As always.

Yes, development went all over the place, during live, SCORE years and here.  You (generic) not liking stuff does not make it a "mistake." No, not even sentinels.

The live dev team shifted constantly and got to be a bit frustrating as they'd leave things behind so that "the new devs can work on what they want!" while leaving dangling ends (like all the clues and such for the blood of the black stream.)  Incarnates? Face it, these were an "NCsoft carrot to keep paying subscriptions, balance be damned" addition. It's so off from the rest of the game, of *course* they don't fit.  But we've had people complain about *everything.* IOs, incarnates, too much content at this level, too much content at a different level, not enough content at either level, or one side or the other.  Everyone's idea of what the "ideal" state of the game is different - and almost nobody's going to agree on that, either.  (Mine, for instance, moves us out of the cities to have a more worldwide impact, cuts the "rule of 5" down to a "rule of 3" for IO set bonuses, drops Incarnate powers other than alpha in half when not in Incarnate content, keeps anyone from being able to cap or perma anything on their own - you want permadom, you make friends with at least a kin - and so on. Won't ever happen unless I spin up my own server.)

 

We've got an old game, an older playerbase, and a volunteer dev team that frankly moves faster than we have any right to expect them to. That said, I mostly use the game as a vehicle for my *own* stories and characters to interact with others. The game's simply a backdrop. If it disappeared tomorrow, I'd still be able to do.. 75% of it or so with discord and other writing.

[Luminara]

Just now, Greycat said:

an older playerbase

 

I'm not old, I'm fermented.

[Greycat]

Just now, Luminara said:

 

I'm not old, I'm fermented.

 

I'm not fermented, I'm demented.

[Spaghetti Betty]

I agree with the sentiment expressed in the OP. As someone that started playing the game when it launched all the way back in the dinosaur ages, I've watched Co* turn into a complicated beast. One thing I can tell you for sure is that it was never balanced. It started all the way back when Moment of Glory should've just been called Glory. When Fire/Kin Controllers were the first MMs. Dumpster diving Tanks herding entire maps and Blasters then nuking said map-sized spawn with AoEs that had no target cap.

 

Over time, I believe that whoever had their hands in changing the game except Castle had its best intentions in mind as a team-oriented dungeon crawling RPG. Some changes were heavy-handed, some were fair.

 

Fast forward to CoH: Freedom and the introduction of Incarnate powers. I think it's no secret that hands were forced when it came to those. There had to be some way to get people to sink tons of money into the game after it essentially becoming free (which, IMO, killed the game anyway). The Alpha slot was pretty cool. It was an awesome idea to give you that overlevel, bandage fix to your character to make it really feel rounded out. Then Interface, Judgment, Destiny (especially Destiny), Lore all came along and those were hella strong. We were told the strength was for upcoming content. Then the game died.

 

This point has been reiterated time and time again, but we were always given the ability to punch through ceiling after ceiling, but this was the one time where a new one never had the chance to be established.

 

The simple solution was to roll those back. It really was. The "balance" would've been fine then. But that would be really negative. Instead, we can see that HC would much rather try and move forward by offering content that allows us to utilize all of this godhood that was bestowed upon us right before we were left without a home. I think that's a more positive way to try and do things.

 

It is a shame that some things people like to play are getting left in the dust just a bit. But they will have their place again in due time. Keep in mind that even the ATs as they function now have evolved over time since they were introduced based on player feedback. Or did y'all want MMs to be doing the tanking for villain teams?

 

 

Just some incoherent ramblings as I drink my morning coffee. Have a good day.

[Grouchybeast]

1 hour ago, The_Warpact said:

One other thing I missed. If you don't like it why didn't you hop on beta to try to change it crowd. 

But, seeing how the emps to merit death knell turned out, I can sorta understand it.

 

That's a very odd example to choose to demonstrate that the devs never listen to player feedback, since the Emp merit change only happened after the negative feedback for removing Vet XP from AE.  The devs demonstrably do listen, they just can't please everybody at the same time.

Edited August 30, 2022 by Grouchybeast

[Greycat]

2 minutes ago, Spaghetti Betty said:

I agree with the sentiment expressed in the OP. As someone that started playing the game when it launched all the way back in the dinosaur ages, I've watched Co* turn into a complicated beast. One thing I can tell you for sure is that it was never balanced. It started all the way back when Moment of Glory should've just been called Glory. When Fire/Kin Controllers were the first MMs. Dumpster diving Tanks herding entire maps and Blasters then nuking said map-sized spawn with AoEs that had no target cap.

 

Good point.

 

I remember that as well. People calling *those* the good old days... when there wasn't as much content, when you'd have teams standing around waiting for a tank to herd the whole floor so a blaster could nuke it. Unless you were the tank, that was ... boring, frankly. Yet some people consider that the "good" time.  The rest of the team? Well, don't complain about door sitters in farms... because that's what we were doing right then while we waited. And those were the low-single-digit issues.

 

And balance... I end up thinking of PVP with mention of balance. There's no way to balance one AT against the other - you can't even internally balance some of the ATs because the powerset differences were so vast. "Balance" was "Get a team to cover your weaker points," and you know... that worked. *shrug*

[The_Warpact]

29 minutes ago, Greycat said:

Snipt

1 - 50 includes incarnates, SOs won't work. When I say they won't work I mean all content. 

 

As far as the rest I said "my opinion " and in that I believe we went off the tracks in the past and the HC devs have continued trying to shore up what they were handed.

[Number Six]

I just want to say that I find something about this thread extremely amusing.

 

Half the posters are saying the game is too easy, and we're either making it easier by buffing powers or not rolling back the i25 small-population streamlining as much or as fast as we should be. We're opening up too many options and a lot of them don't get used because everybody gravitates toward the path of least resistance which makes the game easy mode.

 

The other half is saying that we're killing the game by making parts of it harder, hard modes are too difficult, all the powers are getting nerfed, and things like the AE/merit changes make the game far too grindy for a more mature playerbase who doesn't have as much free time. We're trying to take away options and force everybody to play a certain way.

 

So I'm going to choose to believe both of them even though they're polar opposites, because that's what makes this a great community.

[The_Warpact]

5 minutes ago, Number Six said:

I just want to say that I find something about this thread extremely amusing.

 

Half the posters in this thread are saying the game is too easy, and we're either making it easier by buffing powers or not rolling back the i25 small-population streamlining as much or as fast as we should be. We're opening up too many options and a lot of them don't get used because everybody gravitates toward the path of least resistance which makes the game easy mode.

 

The other half is saying that we're killing the game by making parts of it harder, hard modes are too difficult, all the powers are getting nerfed, and things like the AE/merit changes make the game far too grindy for a more mature playerbase who doesn't have as much free time. We're trying to take away options and force everybody to play a certain way.

 

So I'm going to choose to believe both of them even though they're polar opposites, because that's what makes this a great community.

Well I did start off saying "opinion" and seeing how everyone has one and they are all different its no wonder you came to that conclusion with what has followed. Sprinkle in some history of the game, and viola here we are.

 

Ultimately its a pressure relief valve, things need to be spoken out loud. We find solace in people who agree, we dispute with those that don't and we try to come to terms with what is or isn't. I was seriously fired up and then Luminara brought me back down, some things need discussed to get you were you are going.

 

 

On other things and people. 

The hardest part is not trying to strangle someone through the screen.

[Indystruck]

The game is extraordinarily easy, and making parts of it harder is fun and good.

 

One of my big complaints about Final Fantasy X-2 was it had my favorite battle system in the series (besides maybe V) but it did not have any fights that were in depth enough to take advantage of the intricacies. 

 

With hard mode content, CoX is finally getting content that truly takes advantage of every tool in the arsenal.

 

e: also may I say, what an amazingly pretentious topic title?

Edited August 30, 2022 by Indystruck

[The_Warpact]

1 minute ago, Indystruck said:

The game is extraordinarily easy, and making parts of it harder is fun and good.

 

One of my big complaints about Final Fantasy X-2 was it had my favorite battle system in the series (besides maybe V) but it did not have any fights that were in depth enough to take advantage of the intricacies. 

 

With hard mode content, CoX is finally getting content that truly takes advantage of every tool in the arsenal.

That might actually be what alot of people are getting hung up, and that's thinking that they need to do hard mode.

So they try it and fail and getting pissed. I won't do hard mode, me doing a regular old lrsf is the pinnacle of win for little ole me.

[The_Warpact]

5 minutes ago, Indystruck said:

 

e: also may I say, what an amazingly pretentious topic title?

Just seen this.

 

 

And to quote a famous rabbit, "he don't know me very well do he?"

[Strife3]

The devs here are trying there best within the boundries they are allowed to do. I'll admit some things are true but some are not. Gold side was only a starter zone, areas like the wharf were ment to expand the zones but NCSoft pulled the plug. HC is just doing what they can to make this game good. I feel what they did with AE is wrong, a player should be allowed to play how they want within the rules but if they wanna use a farm dont make it where the farm becomes useless. AE was ment to have fun, players find farming fun, let them do it dont make them suffer just cause they dont want random people killing mobs they are on. I would love to see more power sets and area's like posi talked about a month before shutdown was called. Cant do it now without the resorces and what we have is these people doing their best to let us enjoy CoH long after it was killed off by NCSoft. All those successors are still not out and it's been 10 years now. Give them a bit of a break.

 

[Mezmera]

1 hour ago, Number Six said:

I just want to say that I find something about this thread extremely amusing.

 

Half the posters are saying the game is too easy, and we're either making it easier by buffing powers or not rolling back the i25 small-population streamlining as much or as fast as we should be. We're opening up too many options and a lot of them don't get used because everybody gravitates toward the path of least resistance which makes the game easy mode.

 

The other half is saying that we're killing the game by making parts of it harder, hard modes are too difficult, all the powers are getting nerfed, and things like the AE/merit changes make the game far too grindy for a more mature playerbase who doesn't have as much free time. We're trying to take away options and force everybody to play a certain way.

 

So I'm going to choose to believe both of them even though they're polar opposites, because that's what makes this a great community.

 

I for one like the direction you all are setting here.  It's fantastic that after this games demise we are getting harder endgame content added on that was teased with Going Rogue which was supposed to test our favorite now "OP" characters.

 

I don't mind the AE as on rare occasion I will use it to PL an alt through to the 30s so I'm hoping that it won't be altogether feel nullified for future use and those who currently enjoy it.  The slight trimming though that has been done seems warranted.  Then I hope more emphasis is put towards rewarding playing the current game content outside of AE with maybe better mission completion and arc bonuses for everyone.  

 

The oddest thing to me is those asking for more low level content.  Like we already have so much of it unplayed in Praetoria and the Rogue Isles, how much more do we need for characters that can blow past that stuff in a day?  It seems more encouragement is needed for people to rub their eyes to see all of this stuff staring them in the face.  

 

You all are doing a fabulous job of setting up the framework for future content additions to give our favorite characters and alts more intriguing things to do.  Content creation is and will be the backbone of HC which is unreal that we are getting these kind of updates well after this game was supposed to be long gone.  This is all very appreciated!

Edited August 30, 2022 by Mezmera

[biostem]

I think you have to look at things from the perspective that we are just lucky to be able to play CoH here.  At the same time, I can agree that I don't agree with all of the decisions the devs have made, but am more willing to work within/around those changes than abandon HC altogether...

[Bill Z Bubba]

What a long, strange trip it's been.

[roleki]

5 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

What a long, strange trip it's been.

This thread, or life in general?

[Grouchybeast]

1 hour ago, Number Six said:

So I'm going to choose to believe both of them even though they're polar opposites, because that's what makes this a great community.

 

If you're annoying both sides, you're probably on the right path.

[Greycat]

2 hours ago, The_Warpact said:

1 - 50 includes incarnates, SOs won't work. When I say they won't work I mean all content.

 

 

What makes you think SOs won't work in Incarnate content? It'll be a little harder than "I'm perma-this, capped-that," sure. Then again, I recall people on live with IO'd builds who couldn't complete Trapdoor or any of Ramiel's arc when that came out, and I walked right through on SOs. *shrug*

[BurtHutt]

2 hours ago, Number Six said:

I just want to say that I find something about this thread extremely amusing.

 

Half the posters are saying the game is too easy, and we're either making it easier by buffing powers or not rolling back the i25 small-population streamlining as much or as fast as we should be. We're opening up too many options and a lot of them don't get used because everybody gravitates toward the path of least resistance which makes the game easy mode.

 

The other half is saying that we're killing the game by making parts of it harder, hard modes are too difficult, all the powers are getting nerfed, and things like the AE/merit changes make the game far too grindy for a more mature playerbase who doesn't have as much free time. We're trying to take away options and force everybody to play a certain way.

 

So I'm going to choose to believe both of them even though they're polar opposites, because that's what makes this a great community.

This. This, in a way, is always going to be the case. No matter what is added, there will be a group that likes the adds and another that doesn't. This is part of the reason why I suggest not spending too much time on balancing and changing what's in game. I am hoping the push is to new stuff and adding content. 

 

I am not worried about balancing either. Sure, do it if there's a glaring issue with a power or AT (Sentinels) but otherwise...I'm OK with the game. I think it really hit home when I made my new Symphony controller - here I go again with very familiar leveling paths. Let's add something new and fun! 🙂 

 

 

[Haijinx]

58 minutes ago, roleki said:

This thread, or life in general?

 

All Three

[lepidopter]

going to un-lurk, new player here, started playing a couple months ago.  Interesting thread for me, because I've been thinking about some of this stuff as I get to know the game.  TLDR, I agree with the OP.

 

Thing is tho, maybe I agree for selfish reasons?  I didn't really expect this game to be good or the world to be interesting, but in both cases it is-- very.  I've been assuming game balance and mechanics got... maybe wrecked, maybe just distorted...  late in the retail version's life, for money reasons.  Sounds like that's true.  So I'd personally love to see how it played before that happened.  I know I read somewhere when it was just SO enhancements, AT's and powersets had more identity and were more different from each other, for example.  But what I don't know is if I'd even enjoy that version of the game.  Probably, that's how my tastes usually run, but I know the OG game had serious problems and a lot of the changes were meant to address them.  Still, already running 5 servers/shards/whatever...  I'd really like to see one with that ruleset.  

 

On the other hand, like Steve Albini said, when you get underwear for Xmas from your aunt you don't send an angry letter saying "Okay but where are the socks."  I appreciate that people who care about the game and want to see it get better are letting the public play now.  Even if I tend to disagree about what "better" is.  From my end, I'd just like powersets or ATs to not be grossly underpowered, or not be too obviously inferior to an alternative.  This is so I can enter the Land of Make Believe how I want, without hearing (or thinking) "X sucks compared to Y."  X will almost always be better or worse than Y in a specific situation.  But ideally nothing should suck.  Does that mean everything should be as good as Energy Melee, or that the devs could nerf EM without angry squawking?  Probably not.  Still sad Kinetic Melee didn't get touched this patch, or that Lethal damage is considered so sub-par, or that mob behavior was changed but the flee code was untouched, or or or.  See above about the socks.

 

edit--  looking back, this post sorta boils down to "Hey!  What's that in the gift horse's mouth?!" and ends with a string of complaints about the recent patch.  So I really should say that I LUVS the new run (blitz/parkour one) the devs pulled from the files, that as far as I'm concerned this is the "No socks with sneakers option on Huge" patch, and that I wouldn't trade those things for the whole list I mentioned.  Also I realize I got no idea what money OR time/work would be involved with spinning up a "Classic" server, and I don't expect the HC folks to tackle it or think they probably should.

Edited August 31, 2022 by lepidopter

[Coyotedancer]

Also worth keeping in mind... A lot of Old Timers have on some pretty thick Nostalgia Goggles when it comes to the City.

Those "Good Old Days" definitely had some issues of their own. They weren't a perfect wonderland of gloriously team-centric HappyHappy JoyJoy. 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 31, 2022 by Coyotedancer

[Sir Myshkin]

3 hours ago, Greycat said:

What makes you think SOs won't work in Incarnate content? It'll be a little harder than "I'm perma-this, capped-that," sure. Then again, I recall people on live with IO'd builds who couldn't complete Trapdoor or any of Ramiel's arc when that came out, and I walked right through on SOs. *shrug*

 

1 hour ago, Coyotedancer said:

A lot of Old Timers have on some pretty thick Nostalgia Goggles when it comes to the City.

 

And I think that about sums up the last five pages!