Weekly Discussion 57: Patron Pools

[GM Miss]

Weekly discussion 57 - Week 6/28/20-7/04/20:

 

⚔️YOU VOTED: Let's talk about Patron Pools!⚔️

 

❓Things to think about:

>Here is a link on power pools: https://hcwiki.cityofheroes.dev/wiki/Patron_Power_Pools

>What patron pools need a little TLC?

>What would you change (If you want me to post the feedback, make sure it's feasible)?

>What do you love?

 

Don't just use these prompts, talk about whatever you want from this weeks prompt!

 

Let's Chat 😄

[ImpousVileTerror]

Hero Patrons were an idea that kept cropping up during Legacy, and I think it could be cool . . . but not until we have something else to keep people interested and invested in Redside.

 

I would also REALLY like to see a Natural Patron of some sort.   I know the Legacy Devs were planning to have Manticore switch sides, but I think maybe having just an exemplary Arachnos Soldier or even a non-Arachnos mercenary offering Patronship would be great.  Sets themed after the likes of Willpower, Martial Combat, Dual Pistols, and other Sets that are unambiguously Natural-friendly.

 

The Patron Pets are also . . . eh due to their limited timers.   If there could be a way to have those pets permanent, I would be far more interested in having them!

[Giovanni Valia]

>What patron pools need a little TLC?

Mace Mastery, Leviathan Mastery, most of the powers are overlooked when leveling, save the resist/def power and maybe the hold.

 

>What would you change (If you want me to post the feedback, make sure it's feasible)?

In particular, the patron pool pets, "Mu Adept/ Guardian, Seer, Widow, Mistress, etc are quite squishy for being really useful. I'd like to see them buffed up a bit or at least have scalable hp pools. The recharge on the pets could either be reduced, or have the pets be permanent in the sense that they do not die spontaneously after 2 minutes.

 

Mace Mastery, please add the option for no-redraw on the mace powers. The attack animations and redraw with the mace are severely limiting factors for use in game.

 

>What do you love?

I really like all of the patron power pools. In particular Ghost Widow's pool: Soul Mastery: Soul Storm. The animation and effect of this hold power is great. I'd take it more often if it didn't require choosing a less useful power in the pool.

 

 

Edited June 28, 2020 by Giovanni Valia

[Frostbiter]

I've looked at them but I've never used then. The problem is they're thematic to the Patrons and not to any builds I make. I prefer the epic pools.

[Troo]

Proliferating them couldn't hurt.

 

Patron Pools are limited by animations.

 

If a character does a second patron arc should they get access to 2 pools?

Edited June 29, 2020 by Troo

[BurtHutt]

I tend to take the patron pool powers more often than the epic pool. There are some nice powers in there but nothing amazing - it's a nice way to change up a toon's power set. 

 

I think the pets need to change. More the appearance than anything. I don't want my toon to be associated with Arachnos or that patron sometimes so it kinda doesn't feel/look right. Even less desirable if your toon is a Hero. Perhaps if the Devs had different skins for these pets in the customization section, it'd be more feasible (thematically). If the pets were not directly tied to the patron then taking them might be more appealing. I don't really, in my mind, connect them to the patrons - maybe pool is the same power source for the patron AND me and not directly from the patron? I dunno. That was my one issue with these pools (and the game): you're too tied in with Arachnos or the spectre of Arachnos if you're a Villain.

 

Which need love? I don't know if any do need a big change. I use them far more often than the Epic pools but usually just a power or two. It seems they're working as intended. Honestly, I would prefer the Devs spend their resources on adding content, costume pieces, ATs and powers.

 

I appreciate the Devs and all they do! It's awesome that you canvass the players on these types of topics.

Edited June 28, 2020 by BurtHutt

[gameboy1234]

7 hours ago, Frostbiter said:

I've looked at them but I've never used then. The problem is they're thematic to the Patrons and not to any builds I make. I prefer the epic pools.

This is how I feel.  Most of both the Patron Pools and Epic pools don't really feel worth it in my opinion.  Back on live before Going Rogue I picked Scorpion because of the Shield and the AOE Web grenade, but that was kind of the least bad option.   It worked well enough with my other powers to make it useful, but it was kinda meh overall.   It also did not feel terribly thematic with my character, I just took it for the mechanics.

 

I'd run out of better options for powers, as opposed to be really excited to see a big increase in power.  That's a problem, imo.

 

I think making Patron Pools more powerful would be problematic with IO Sets and Incarnate powers now in the game, but I also don't like the way Patron powers are kind of held out to be the big goal for characters and then you get there and it's all "meh."  But unfortunately I don't know what to do instead.

 

As I'm typing this, I'm thinking that I really don't like any of Lord Recluse's lieutenants as patrons, and most of my Redside characters are more free spirits who would not accept someone in a "patron" roll at all.  (Unless it's a Patreon, and involves free money.  Then we can talk.)  Some other themes and other ways of gaining late game powers would be appreciated.  Both partnering with other groups and acquiring power entirely on one's own I think would be helpful.  Themes of personal power (beating the heck out of some group), scientific knowledge or skill (discover/make it yourself), great sacrifice (magical binding that put your own soul in danger); stuff like that might fit some additional character concepts.

 

Epics feel the same way to me, but that isn't the subject here.

Edited June 29, 2020 by gameboy1234

[Coyotedancer]

On 6/28/2020 at 10:14 AM, ImpousVileTerror said:

The Patron Pets are also . . . eh due to their limited timers.   If there could be a way to have those pets permanent, I would be far more interested in having them!

 

For what it's worth, current Patron pets absolutely can be perma-summoned. I did it with my old main's Adept partner back in the Live days (Kestrel was a DB/WP Stalker) and FCM (Mr. CD) did it with his Illusion/Time Controller's Fortunata.

 

It just takes a huge build commitment...  You have to go for pretty much every single ounce of Recharge you can possibly get. 

Edited June 29, 2020 by Coyotedancer

[Sir Myshkin]

Spitballing here, but how about a new "Patron" Pool for Lord Recluse. Requires unlocking Hybrid Incarnate slot and a unique mission arc, "Lord Recluse has acknowledged your strength... such and such, you've proven your worth to Arachnos, and your ability step above the rabble of Paragon City to become a high ranking officer under his command." Something thematic that proves we can go toe-to-toe with his inner circle and are above simply being a peon beneath them.

 

• Theme around Arachnos Soldiers
• T1 Overpower: -Res, Fear, Your presence alone is enough for an enemy to tremble in fear, weakened and unable to fight back. (Melee, ST, -15%)
• T2 Incarnate Threaded Arachnos Armor: +Def, smaller +Res both two S/L/Toxic
• T3 Strategist: Unresistable toggle AoE Enemy -ToHit (4%?), -Def. "Confidant in your abilities to react in any combat situation, your foresight and skills are hard for enemies to defend against making your actions swift, and their ability to respond difficult." Seeing this like a reverse Maneuvers.
• T4 Tactical Command: Tactics+Asault toggle in one, cannot be taken if Leadership pool is taken, 0.75 EPS base
• T5 grants a Bane Spider Soldier

Edited June 28, 2020 by Sir Myshkin
clarity

[MTeague]

Conceptually, I much prefer epic pools over patron pools. 

Some of this is lingering resentment over the low-level redside content where it's city of lackeys.

When my villains finally come into their own, they should be a power int thier own right, not sucking up to an arachnos patron to be taught a few tricks or able to borrow some of THIER power.

 

I do use them on some villains who are more in the mold of an unthinking brute rather than a planner or schemer.

And I do use them on one "Natural" villain who is just a completely normal unpowered human, but who has excessive helpings of hatred and ambition.

But never on my "Doctor Doom" style villains.

And never on any heroes at all.  Doesn't matter what provides the most utility or best performance.

 

Patron PETS in particular I will never ever take on anything except a Widow or Soldier, because again, I never really enjoyed the concept of Arachnos to begin with.  But a Widow/Soldier, I can see calling on their Sisters/Brothers.

[MTeague]

8 minutes ago, Sir Myshkin said:

Spitballing here, but how about a new "Patron" Pool for Lord Recluse. Requires unlocking Hybrid Incarnate slot and a unique mission arc, "Lord Recluse has acknowledged your strength... such and such, you've proven your worth to Arachnos, and your ability step above the rabble of Paragon City to become a high ranking officer under his command."

If and only if I can have a refusal option that tells Lord Recluse where he can stick it, because I'm not being subserviient to him any more than I am to his lieutentants.  (even if choosing this option meant I'd be ambushed by 5-10 waves of enemies)

 

Arachnos/Recluse are allies-of-the-moment AT BEST, and competitors to be eliminated at worst.

Edited June 28, 2020 by MTeague

[ImpousVileTerror]

And definitely not on board with it being tied to Incarnate anythings.

[Sir Myshkin]

16 minutes ago, MTeague said:

If and only if I can have a refusal option that tells Lord Recluse where he can stick it, because I'm not being subserviient to him any more than I am to his lieutentants.  (even if choosing this option meant I'd be ambushed by 5-10 waves of enemies)

 

Arachnos/Recluse are allies-of-the-moment AT BEST, and competitors to be eliminated at worst.

In all fairness I don't see why we couldn't have two similar versions... Reflecting on it further it might be kind of interesting to have dual options, one Arachnos themed for those that don't mind or like the thematic utility of the pets, and then a non-specific one that does mostly the same thing but trades out the name of the Armor for something else and swaps out Toxic for maybe Psionic (mental fortitude). Transform the T5 into a damage AoE maybe? Not sure a generic enough ability could be developed that works across multiple themes...

 

What about an anti-Vengeance? "Rally Cry" AoE grants a recovery buff on team, and target specific ally is given an anti-death trigger like Unrelenting with an initial heal over time and a 50% heal and resurrect if they fall. Flat 300/s recharge, 200/s duration like Victory Rush, but non variable buff 1.0 EPS.

 

And thinking about the unlock concept, tie it to completion of the Ms. Liberty TF or the Recluse SF. After first completion you get a note from the contact, have a conversation that talks about your "qualities and strengths." If Lord Recluse is the contact, it'll talk about the "Arachnos" version of the ability, but you can tell him to stuff bricks if you choose, but either way both TF's unlock both variants of the pool.

[Eva Destruction]

I would absolutely love if there were a customization option to make the powers less Arachnos-themed.  As it is, the only Patron power I even consider taking is Scorpion Shield.  Even my villains don't like Arachnos; my heroes certainly don't.

 

 

[Heraclea]

I have unlocked them on several of my characters.  I have never bothered to actually take them on any of them.  None of them tempted.  The Arachnos themed graphics were part of the problem. 

 

A bigger problem is that none of them were anywhere near as tempting as other late levelling game picks like Hasten or even another travel power, expecially if you're already in the pool and pick up Combat Jumping, Hover, or Afterburner.  Powers you have to jump through hoops to qualify for ought to be as good as primary powers; the patrons are not. 

 

The early ones seem to be dominated by weak, slow, single target CCs and weak slow blasts.  Arachnos themed pets are worse than other pets; one, they're Arachnos themed, and two, they're pets, in the way when they aren't skittering off to die.  None of them have the obvious appeal of something like Caltrops, which I fire by macro at myself as a first level trouble button. Or Conserve Power, Superior Conditioning, and Physical Perfection, which I usually taken on characters they're available to.  One slot wonders that make handy mules.  Or Salt Crystals and Quicksand, which affect more than any of the patron controls.  None of the patrons offer anything as tempting as these. 

[Peacemoon]

I don’t really like patron pools. I don’t like having to go red side to unlock them and I don’t like the Arachnos themed pets. I took Soul on my Dark/Dark controller because there is no dark equivalent APP, but he’s a hero and it was all ‘out of character’ in order to unlock. 
 

I wish Patron pools were just available like APPs, and the story arcs were just optional content. Also I would love more APP choices in general to keep up with all of the proliferation of sets. For example a Rad APP for Defenders could be possible now with new rad sets like Atomic Manipulation, Radiaton Melee and Radiation Armour. 

[kiramon]

I think they’re fine. They bridge gaps for characters if they want to bridge them in some ways - I think there are plenty that need some rebalancing and overall their animations are too long but they dk what they need to. 
 

I disagree about proliferation because it’s continually taking away from the archetype and more into free form, which I dislike. But that’s probably just my opinion — but defenders and corrupters (mms to extent) get it pretty badly where we’re already in a “why play it as a corr when you could be a defender version.” 

[Yomo Kimyata]

I'm probably an outlier again.  I love that you have to unlock them, and I wish you had to unlock ancillary power pools as well.  Every alt I have unlocks them at 35 (then goes to Vanguard and unlocks that before resuming regularly scheduled programming), even if they don't end up using them.

 

Almost all of my builds have either anc power pools or patron pools.  I don't mind the patron part, since I use my imagination a lot to justify the power and conveniently forget how I got it.  Generally I am able to find one that fits best.  

 

I've never gotten a patron pet, although I'm working on a build now that requires it.

 

As far as the powers go, they seem pretty balanced.

[Tater Todd]

Judging by a few posts on here it looks like the Arachnos symbols are keeping some folks from trying out the Patron Pools....well fear not Bluesiders!  It's possible to select Patron Pool Armors without the Arachnos symbols!  Just select 'Minimal FX' for your Soul, Leviathan and Mace Armors (The Mu armor by default doesn't have the Mu symbol anyway).  I know that Minimal FX gets rid of the patron symbol for Dominators but I'm not so sure if this is the case for all Archetypes but I'd hope it would be.

Edited June 29, 2020 by Tater Todd

[Chris24601]

My biggest complaint about the Patron Powers is that Mu Mastery is basically an excuse to not bother giving Scrappers a proper “Charge Mastery” type pool.

 

You could build a heroic Electric/Electric scrapper, but if you want his epic powers to be using lightning at range you have to hit Null, run a villain arc, and Null back.

 

Seriously... fire, darkness, laser eyes and shuriken does not actually supply much in the way of options if you want a consistent theme for your scrapper. That you have to jump through hoops just to get lightning is kinda lame.

 

Mace Mastery in general I think suffers in that most of the ATs have some other sort of weapon/munitions option that ISN’T explicitly tied to a common Arachnos weapon. Also, are you really telling me that you can’t just take an Arachnos Mace off one of the thousands of Arachnos mooks you’ve pummeled before level 35?

 

Likewise, Soul Mastery is conceptually similar to Darkness, just with slightly fancier graphics.

 

Leviathan Mastery has similar issues to Mace in that it is such a specific theme that it’s only going to serve a very limited pallet of characters.

 

The overall result is just sort of “blah.” It worked okay before faction swapping and proliferation of the epic pools across the ATs (i.e. when they were the ONLY option for Redside), but that ship has sailed.

 

So to sum it up;

- Mechanically there’s nothing about them that makes them any better than a thematic ancillary pool.

- Other than its pet, Mu Mastery has no business at all being locked behind side-specific Patron arcs... so says every elec/elec build that doesn’t have an elec ancillary because Mu Mastery exists.

- Mace and Leviathan are almost too lore specific in their FX, which limits their usefulness to either those with a very narrow theme or those who don’t care about thematic cohesion in the first place.

 

Now a suggestion; 

The only real thing that sets the Patron sets apart from the Ancillaries is their pets.

 

So turn all the patron pools into generic ancillary sets EXCEPT the pet. The Pet becomes a power akin to the prestige sprints (i.e. both permanent and

slottable) that is awarded for completing an appropriate Patron Arc.

 

Meanwhile, Mu minus the pet becomes a generic Lightning Mastery set.

 

Soul becomes generic and gets alternate animation options from the generic Darkness sets.

 

Mace becomes a generic high-tech weapon set with alternate skins. For example, the Scrapper/Stalker set features all ranged energy blasts and a web grenade effect... so allow that set to choose any of the skins available for Beam Rifle; opening up a lot more ways it could be used.

 

I’m honestly not familiar enough with Leviathan to know what a generic would look like; maybe allow some of the water blaster effects to be swapped in in place of spectral sharks and the like?

 

This keeps a real tangible reward for those who run the patron arcs (and a pet from the patron’s faction is much more power/theme agnostic... you don’t need to summon up souls of the dead to be authorized to call for backup from a fortunata) while those who want certain sets for thematic reasons unrelated to Arachnos can select the parts they’d actually want.

[Zepp]

I brought this up somewhere in another thread, but I think that having the pools unlock without the mission, but the summons requiring the missions to unlock would be a good middle ground. It would keep the "exclusivity" of the summons, but the other pools, which aren't that much different form other epic pools could be taken without going red.

[Katharos]

It's hard to talk about patron pools separate from epic pools, so I'm not going to try.

I don't mind having to go redside and do the patron arcs to unlock the pools. I used to, but I started telling myself that it's basically going undercover to steal from Arachnos, which the badge descriptions for swapping back blueside support. Then again, it barely ever comes up for me because I'm a redside player by default, and the patron arcs are some of the only high level redside mission content in the game, so I run out of content if I don't do them anyway. I run out of content even when I do them. People who do resent having to go redside to unlock the pools have valid feelings, regardless of the fact I do not share them.

Leviathan mastery is often a great choice mechanically. In some cases it offers the only taoe immobilise of any ancillary pool for an entire AT, it sometimes has a cone that does -def and -res that can then slot an achilles heel, sometimes it's the only one to offer self-healing in the form of a (non-perma-able) dull pain or hibernate. Knockout blow does great damage and can slot an unbreakable constraint proc to do even more. There's so much to recommend it.

 

And I hate it. I've never taken it. I never will take it. Because I can't thematically reconcile friggin sharks with any of my character concepts. Even the abilities that aren't sharks are troublesome - you literally *vomit* on your enemies, in one case. No matter how good the powers are, for me, leviathan mastery might as well not exist. And I hate that. Looking at the set in mids makes me feel resentful.

I take mace mastery the most of any patron pool strictly on the basis of wanting scorpion shield. Scorpion shield, by offering smashing, lethal, AND energy defence is mechanically the best defence ancillary toggle hands-down. However, if I take scorpion shield, I have to write off my other patron pool picks entirely. Even if I do end up wanting another ability from my patron pool, like another attack or somesuch, the fact that mace mastery has a weapon with relatively limited customisation options and not very good attacks to justify it is a dealbreaker.  I'd rather mace mastery be turned into a pure tech/gadgets pool (which would still track with Black Scorpion's power armour) and cycle through different doodads than have just a mace. Also, personal force field is fine. Just fine. I only really take it on my doms as a LOTG mule, but that's really all it needs to do.

 

That said, when I can justify it (like on my spider,) shatter armour is amazing and I love it.

Soul mastery is a nice pool thematically and has some of my favourite power picks. Dark Obliteration feels so good to use, and it's very pretty. I wish blaster dark blast had Dark Obliteration, and I'm continually disappointed it doesn't. I bend over backwards trying to shove it in wherever I can. Moonbeam is the prettiest snipe. Shadow meld is great for shedding defence debuffs and looks great. Soul storm is visually lovely and in many cases is a better attack than the ranged single target attack available from the same set. Darkest Night is a good debuff and it's solid for pulling, even if it's costly on the endurance.  Dark consumption is too small and has too long of a recharge to actually make a difference for builds with endurance issues, and it has a to-hit check to boot. I rather like soul drain, but I recognise it's only got niche use.

 

Mu mastery I pick most often on my melee characters because it has both a ball taoe and a snipe in most cases. I don't love static discharge because it's small. Power sink is usually the best endurance tool of the ancillary sets because it has no tohit check and it has a relatively low cooldown. Thunder strike is legitimately one of my most favourite attacks in the game, and I just wish it did knockdown instead of knockback across all ATs - defender and corruptor thunder strikes still do crazy KB, last I checked, though that's not mu mastery. I've never taken surge of power and never will, I'm quite good at getting myself killed without the extra help, thank you very much. I'm of the unpopular opinion that conserve power is nice to have, even if I don't go out of my way to get it. Like almost all the taoe immobilises from the ancillary pools, electrifying fences is usually too small to do the things I want it to do: AKA, lock a group in place from around a corner so they can't hit me, or lock a group in a tightly-packed ball so I can position my cones ideally. Given how weak a tool taoe immobilises are to begin with (I notice most control AT veterans rarely waste a power pick on them even if I always do,) it's a weird design choice, in my opinion.

 

I've never taken a patron pool pet and I doubt I will. They're associated too closely with very specific groups in game, and suggest an association between my characters and the groups in question that I don't like. Also, they're not inherently perma, so I'd be in a position of needing to resummon them on the regular, and I'd rather just play my own character (usually active-playing ATs get the pets, not more passive ATs) than do that. When I want to manage pet summoning as a core feature of my gameplay, I'll play my illusion controller. 

 

I find all the res toggles equally unoffensive. If I'm making a build where I'm taking one over a defence toggle, I don't seek out one over the other. I'm usually making my decision based on the powers I can get in addition to the res toggle.
 

Focused accuracy and all of its equivalents are too expensive endurance-wise for me to justify putting in my builds, even though I really want to. I'd love for it to be as viable a choice as tactics because it would make my tank builds a lot more varied and open options that would make playing the whole AT more fun for me as a whole. I say that as someone who loves tankers already, so I suppose that doesn't make a huge difference.

 

I don't know why single target immobilises are in ancillary pools at all. They're worth nothing. I don't think I'm exaggerating when I say they could be removed entirely and no one would notice. I actually think the single target holds are fine, on the basis that the set bonuses for hold IOs can fill out a build goal, you can proc them to be good attacks, and sometimes you even get attacks in your AT powersets to layer them with. My ice melee stalker, for example, can sustain a mag 6 hold on a boss, and I think the semi-often situational utility of a ST hold is enough to justify its existence in the ancillary pools.

 

I like power boost and its equivalents. They're offered to ATs that get the most utility out of them, and they make a huge difference with no investment whatsoever.

When I started learning how to build, it became very obvious to me very quickly that some ATs had more thought put into their patron sets and their respective powers than others. And for some ATs, it's very hard to justify going into any ancillary pool over taking a real AT power or a power pool pick, or even if I do have the spare pick, it's hard to justify spending the slots on them. Many ATs have two ancillary pools that are significantly better than other options, a handful that are okay depending on what you want to do, and one or two that are rubbish and aren't worth looking at. Gonna talk about that in more detail here.

This is probably going to be the most contentious part of my post. Apologies ahead of time - I don't mean to invalidate anyone else's playstyles, but these are the things I've discovered through extensive play and discussions with friends. Disregard if it doesn't apply to your experiences.

 

For some reason, sentinel ancillary pools are absolutely the best versions of themselves and I'm extremely jealous of them. I love how some sentinel ancillaries even have team heals or team buffs - I'd love to see that in the ancillary pools for more ATs. Same feeling about the damage auras in sentinel ancillaries.

 

Because of the way dominators need to be built to function (the emphasis on global recharge) and their very small health pools, they're highly incentivized to build for defence over resists. Most commonly, you'll be seeing domis run mace mastery for scorp shield and personal force field for the LOTG mules and to get s/l softcap, sometimes even e softcap, or ice mastery for sleet and frozen armour. This makes me sad because, god, I desperately crave the taoes from the other ancillary sets, but I usually never have the spare power picks for them. I already need to pick up all the power pool defence powers, and to do that I already have to give up on a certain number of AT powers. Is that mostly a consequence of how domis work, rather than a condemnation of the patron pools? Yeah, sure, but aren't ancillary pools supposed to be complimentary to an AT's intended function? Anyway, I'd love to see more defence toggles and LOTG mules added to the other ancillary power sets for domis.

 

I mentioned tanks earlier, want to come back to that. The tank ancillary pools are great, but they're very hard to take because tanks are, in similar ways to domis, encouraged to go into the power pools fairly heavily to fulfil their intended functions. Specifically to hit def softcaps and res hard caps. Accepting that the rule of thumb for most tanks is to get boxing/tough/weave, hasten, manoeuvres or assault and tactics, and combat jumping - plus, usually, a travel power - there's not much room power-wise or slot-wise to go into an ancillary pool anyway. And because of all the toggles, most tanks are incentivised to hit energy mastery in the rare case they do have a power pick or two. I think Arcanaville posted Back In The Day on the matter of tank endurance issues, and I'm pretty sure that analysis still applies. So, tankers are another AT where, no matter how good the patron pools are (and they ARE good) they're very hard to justify taking for most powerset combos and most builds. I'd love to see tanker ancillaries get more endurance tools, to widen the options. Or, at the very least, just make the tanker focused accuracy cost less endurance, so that it's a good alternative to leadership.

 

I think corruptor, blaster, defender, and controller ancillaries are in good places. A good mix of different kinds of attacks, defences, and utilities, almost all of which can find synergy depending on your AT powersets. I'd tweak corruptor and defender ancillaries to have more taoe immobilises, especially instead of the dumb single target immobilises they currently get. I definitely think corrs and defenders should get electrifying fences in Mu Mastery. Similarly, I like the state of ancillaries for masterminds!

The state of ancillary pools for the rest of the ATs is just, well, fine. And I don't think this post needs to be any longer than it is, so I'll leave it at that.

 

 

 

Edited June 29, 2020 by Katharos

[tidge]

I don't mind going redside to unlock the Patron pools. When I am considering roleplay implications for why *I* want such powers on a toon, I pause and think about it. For non-RP I don't sweat it.

 

In general, I think the Patron pools are well-balanced: It is rare that I am choosing (Patron pool) powers for an AT and find the options to be bad ones, especially when the other Epic pools are considered to be available.

 

The only toon where I felt that I didn't like what the patron pools offered was my Crab Spider Soldier build (a Crabbermind). I opted for Mace Mastery (for theme) to get the Arachnobot Blaster Patron Pet. As a Crab Spider, I eschewed the Mace... but the Patron pool is 'all Mace'. Aside from the activation (and redraw) times I have no real complaint about the powers themselves, although at the level you can take the Patron powers, the ranged attacks (of all Patron pools) aren't really necessary for 'balancing' either Bane Spiders or Crab Spiders.

 

I can live with my (tiny) issue, but it narrows the area that I'm willing to read other player's opinions on: Are the VEAT Patron pool power choices (overlapping Tanks/Brutes, but with no option for 'Ancillary' pools) really the best options for those ATs? Generally I think they are fine, it's just that some of the build options for my VEAT are narrow (and duplicative) of powers I've already taken on my VEATs.

[laudwic]

Just leveled a Dominator to 50 and I took the Mace Patron Pool.

 

I don't mind/like the missions to unlock access to the power sets.

 

One basic reason that I took the Mace power pool is, as a Dominator, it was so much better than the others.   That pool has two powers that you can slot Luck of the Gambler into.  The other pools the toggle was a resistance power and no defense powers.  Most dominators try to get as much recharge as possible, you can slot a Luck of the Gambler Increase recharge into a defense powers with Mace Scorpion Sheila and Personal Force field.  For me, that was the deciding factor as it now gave me three uses of Luck of the Gambler and Personal Force Field has been a pleasant surprise as a one slot OH BLEEP power.  Heck, you can slot a Force Feedback: Chance for Recharge into Disruptor Blast (I don't use that power enough to make it worth it, but you could.  As a Grav/Savage Dom I have Force Feedback: Chance for Recharge in Lift and Propel.)

 

I think Mace is far better than any other sets for Dominators and I would be curious about what % of Dominators use each set.

 

 

Edited June 29, 2020 by laudwic
clarification and remembered something

[ForeverLaxx]

My problem with the Patron Pools as a whole is that they're themed to sell the idea that you're a lackey to one of Recluse's LTs. You're not even good enough in your own right to "be a LT" yourself in this scenario. To put it another way, Recluse is a Boss, Mako is a LT, and you're just a minion. Sure, the power is scaled up considerably but from a game perspective you're basically just a powerful cog in Recluse's machine instead of your own thing. This also means many of the powers don't fit your particular character's theme, so you either have to forgo thematic choice in favor of stronger synergy, or be "weaker" for sake of theme. I'm not sure that can be fixed considering the sets are meant to show your loyalty to Arachnos rather than be an extension of your own power, but that in itself is the problem.

 

From the angle of game mechanics, being forced to run a mission and fight an AV/EB to get a badge in order to have access, when Epics just exist once you're the right level, adds insult to injury. I get the story perspective, but it adds more disparity and unfairness for the redside vs blueside argument. The pools themselves are pretty balanced on a per-set basis for each AT, even if they're boring. The pets aren't very good and players are going to overvalue the +defense toggle armors for obvious reasons, but this does cause one Patron to be over-represented.

 

As a personal aside, I think the Mace is just silly, especially when you shoot energy blasts out of it.