Focused Feedback: Other Powers Changes

[Doomrider]

15 minutes ago, Riverdusk said:

To me (and I think to Vanden) it is simple and very objective.  If it benefits from range enhancements it should be TAoE.  If it doesn't it should be PBAoE.

 

By the way I argued the same back when the stalker version of Frost didn't take range enhancements (before it was fixed).  I literally posted that if it didn't take range, it should be changed to take PBAoE and not TAoE.  Otherwise they needed to fix it to be affected by range enhancement.  They fixed it and now it makes sense to be TAoE.

I will agree with that when it comes to cones and ranged targeted aoes, but what about Spinning Strike then? 
Currently, it is a targeted aoe. The center of the area of effect originates from the target, not from the player, much the same way the new ToF does and afaik (correct me if I'm wrong here) Spinning Strike does not accept range enhancements.
So should the range then be made enhanceable using Frost as a basis of comparison, or, should we just change the sets it takes despite it being an actual TAoE? And if we do infact change it to accept PBAoE sets instead, do we then need to change how the power works and change the area of effect to originate from the player instead? 
I think if the AoE originates from the target, OR it originates from the player it's set type should reflect that.

Edited October 24, 2020 by Doomrider

[Vanden]

42 minutes ago, Doomrider said:

I will agree with that when it comes to cones and ranged targeted aoes, but what about Spinning Strike then? 
Currently, it is a targeted aoe. The center of the area of effect originates from the target, not from the player, much the same way the new ToF does and afaik (correct me if I'm wrong here) Spinning Strike does not accept range enhancements.
So should the range then be made enhanceable using Frost as a basis of comparison, or, should we just change the sets it takes despite it being an actual TAoE? And if we do infact change it to accept PBAoE sets instead, do we then need to change how the power works and change the area of effect to originate from the player instead? 
I think if the AoE originates from the target, OR it originates from the player it's set type should reflect that.

Determining the sets a power should take by the shape of the AoE will always be a double standard, because either melee-range TAoEs will be taking ranged IO sets, or ranged cones will be taking melee IO sets (or you'll just be arbitrarily determining whether cones take PBAoE or TAoE, I guess, since apparently Range slottability doesn't matter). Determining it by the names of the sets, as in, semantically, is going to be extremely flimsy, and should basically mean every kind of AoE except ones that don't require a target would use TAoE sets.

 

Determining it by whether or not the power accepts Range enhancements is the only consistent, logical way to do it.

Edited October 24, 2020 by Vanden

[DarionLeonidas]

5 hours ago, skoryy said:

My counterargument, as someone with an MA tank, is that having a second limited AoE in the set is really nice to have.  More hits, more aggro!

 

Maybe split so that only tanks and brutes get the AoE version?

I like your solution. This is fair.

[DarionLeonidas]

I see a real problem with this as it further weakens Scrappers, especially as compared to Stalkers.

With this change, my main, a Level 50 Scrapper, loses his Alpha Strike Single Target to a Cone; even if it does the same amount of damage, re-classifying it as a PBAoE means that, while my main is able to slot Hecatomb here and Armageddon in Dragon's Tail, any other Scrapper I get to 50 will only have Armageddon in one or the other.

That's my practical objection to another loss of potential to Scrappers; Stalkers have been improved to the point where Scrappers are already taking a backseat, and MA Stalkers will still be able to slot Hecatomb and Armageddon, making Stalkers (once again) that much better and Scrappers that much weaker.

And promising that my character who already has it won't be changed isn't the point; I'm not one of those "I got mine, screw everybody else" people, and I have more Scrappers in the pipeline.

At this point, my only option is to spend everything on Buying Hecatombs and power-level my nascent Scrappers to 50.

In conclusion: Eagle's Claw is not broken, Please do not "fix" it.

Please don't do this.

[Hew]

2 hours ago, DarionLeonidas said:

 

In conclusion: Eagle's Claw is not broken, Please do not "fix" it.

 

Earlier in this thread, it was specifically called out that A. the recharge didnt change. B. the animation didnt change. C. the damage didn't decrease.

 

Free damage is bad?

[Moonlighter]

 

My reading is that this is about messing up someone's build for a not significant change. If Darion doesn't want to rethink their entire build I get that. Mine happens to have a Scrapper set there, so my build in unaffected. But I get it. On the other hand, the melee purple set has plenty of homes in MA so rebuilding (if forced to due to respec) shouldn't be that big of a deal. I understand EC is a great home for a proc though.

 

When using it on Peregrine, I can hit 2-3 targets if I re-position in normal play. More if I am farming melee enemies with a taunt aura. This is a nice QoL change, but it doesn't suddenly make MA good for AoE. I support it, as I will get in a good number of extra splash hits in typical high level play, and that's great.

[DreadShinobi]

2 hours ago, Hew said:

Earlier in this thread, it was specifically called out that A. the recharge didnt change. B. the animation didnt change. C. the damage didn't decrease.

 

Free damage is bad?

Nobody said the change wasn't a flat out buff. What people have been saying, is that if you look at the animation of eagles claw, there is absolutely nothing about the look of the power that makes you think, gee, this should be hitting more than 1 target.

[Saikochoro]

The tooltip for the new eagles claws shows a much higher number than the live version. Is this just accounting for it hitting more than one target with the same damage and not that the power itself does more damage if it were used on a single foe?

Edited October 25, 2020 by Saikochoro

[@Ghost]

17 minutes ago, DreadShinobi said:

Nobody said the change wasn't a flat out buff. What people have been saying, is that if you look at the animation of eagles claw, there is absolutely nothing about the look of the power that makes you think, gee, this should be hitting more than 1 target.

Yeah, thematically it doesn't really line up much at all. People typically suggested Storm Kick more often as a cone, and we eventually got that! ... in Martial Assault.

 

I know the idea's to make EC more appealing, but it's pretty weird. I'd sooner look to its crit/damage boosting effect for a buff, but I assume those conversations happened in closed beta already.

[TC]

5 hours ago, DarionLeonidas said:

I see a real problem with this as it further weakens Scrappers, especially as compared to Stalkers.

With this change, my main, a Level 50 Scrapper, loses his Alpha Strike Single Target to a Cone; even if it does the same amount of damage, re-classifying it as a PBAoE means that, while my main is able to slot Hecatomb here and Armageddon in Dragon's Tail, any other Scrapper I get to 50 will only have Armageddon in one or the other.

That's my practical objection to another loss of potential to Scrappers; Stalkers have been improved to the point where Scrappers are already taking a backseat, and MA Stalkers will still be able to slot Hecatomb and Armageddon, making Stalkers (once again) that much better and Scrappers that much weaker.

And promising that my character who already has it won't be changed isn't the point; I'm not one of those "I got mine, screw everybody else" people, and I have more Scrappers in the pipeline.

At this point, my only option is to spend everything on Buying Hecatombs and power-level my nascent Scrappers to 50.

In conclusion: Eagle's Claw is not broken, Please do not "fix" it.

Please don't do this.

I agree with this, I'm currently leveling my MA/Ninj Scrapper to 50 so I can get Hecatombs in, although I care more about the fact on the beta I'm hitting targets in the head with phantom ghost kicks behind the target I actually kicked.

 

Not that this has to be the solution, but I don't see why they don't just give Eagle's Claw a little more damage and call it done. The main thing wrong with MA is that EC's damage is low for it's animation time.

[ABlueThingy]

28 minutes ago, DreadShinobi said:

Nobody said the change wasn't a flat out buff. What people have been saying, is that if you look at the animation of eagles claw, there is absolutely nothing about the look of the power that makes you think, gee, this should be hitting more than 1 target.

Didn't Bruce Lee once kick a man so hard he broke the arm of the guy behind the guy he actually kicked?

 

[TC]

36 minutes ago, ABlueThingy said:

Didn't Bruce Lee once kick a man so hard he broke the arm of the guy behind the guy he actually kicked?

 

Sure, but my character isn't Bruce Lee. I have two Martial Arts characters and neither of them have the power to kick wind strong enough to break bones in their themes. With Katana/Ninja Blade's Golden Dragonfly it's fine because the animation that accompanies the power makes it work; it has added effects, and hypothetically the sword could cut through someone and hit people on the other side. But Eagle's Claw is a righteous kick to the head. And nothing else. If they want to add an animation for splaying wind or force or whatever out of the target's head and on to targets behind, I suppose they could do that. But it just seems like an overall weird thing to do to Eagle's Claw.

Edited October 25, 2020 by TC

[Bopper]

9 hours ago, Vanden said:

I checked, there's been no change to Eagle's Claw's damage or recharge to compensate for the added AoE. Although I haven't actually tested the power, and I think there might be some kind of quirkiness with how it works, so it might not be a normal cone attack, like maybe the other targets in the AoE aren't guaranteed to take damage or something. Testing is needed.

Nothing about the power changed other than the fact it was given splash damage in a cone. The main target still takes the same single target damage (2.92 scale?) And the secondary targets in the cone take damage, but smaller in scale. I forget exactly, but I want to say 58% of the ST damage.

[Bopper]

2 hours ago, Saikochoro said:

The tooltip for the new eagles claws shows a much higher number than the live version. Is this just accounting for it hitting more than one target with the same damage and not that the power itself does more damage if it were used on a single foe?

Got a screenshot? My guess is the main target damage and the secondary target damage were added together.

[ScarySai]

8 hours ago, Moonlighter said:

Can anyone figure out what difference we should be looking for here?

What are you testing on? On live right now, my DP/martial has been unplayable for almost a year now, as hail of bullets is doing about 50-60% less damage than it's supposed to.

[Saikochoro]

30 minutes ago, Bopper said:

Got a screenshot? My guess is the main target damage and the secondary target damage were added together.

See below.  The beta version has a much higher tooltip value, but when used on a single target it definitely doesn't do that much damage, which is why I was wondering if it was calculating using multiple targets.  Ive had a similar question with chain induction in electrical melee having a much higher tooltip than it actually does.  I figured it was calculating multiple targets, but never really knew for sure.  Wondered if this is the same.

 

Here is the live version:

 

Here is the beta version:

Edited October 25, 2020 by Saikochoro

[Saikochoro]

My question about tooltip values aside.  I transferred my MA/SR from the live server to the beta and did some minor testing. I appreciate the thought behind changing eagles claw to a cone and that is in line with many wanting more AoE for MA.  I did get multiple targets in several times, but rarely more than 2.
 

Im in a minority in that I wanted to double down on the single target nature of MA rather than buff its AoE. I would honestly much rather have them buff the damage of eagles claw a fair amount than to turn it into the cone. The main problem with it is that it doesn’t do enough damage for its animation time to warrant use in the best attack chains.  I want eagles claw to hit hard enough that you would be crazy not to take and use it in your normal rotations. 
 

That said, I am happy to take this change too even if it is not the route I would prefer. 

[Solarverse]

@Jimmy "All versions of the following powers have been converted from old pseudopet mechanics to new execute power mechanics "

Does this mean the stacking hit effects are now back and working and can be manipulated as sound mods?

[Myrmidon]

21 minutes ago, ScarySai said:

What are you testing on? On live right now, my DP/martial has been unplayable for almost a year now, as hail of bullets is doing about 50-60% less damage than it's supposed to.

While this affects my Gunkata as well, that isn’t actually unplayable, Sai. Having all of your attacks miss (for months on the live servers Pre-Snap game) because they are tied to a bugged Gauntlet was unplayable.😉

 

 

 

Concerning Eagle’s Claw, if my one of two MA/DA Stalkers (evidently, someone else is also a masochist) in existence cannot have Dragon’s Tail, then this is a tolerable alternative.

Edited October 25, 2020 by Myrmidon

[Myrmidon]

18 hours ago, Jimmy said:

 Shadow Maul

Target cap reduced from 10 to 5 (16 to 10 for Tankers)

 

18 hours ago, Jimmy said:

 Touch of Fear

Cast time increased from 1.17s to 1.97s

If Shadow Maul is going to have its target cap decreased, then Touch of Fear shouldn’t have a cast time below 1.37s.

 

 

As far as which sets slot into Touch of Fear, I’ll leave that up to the Captain to decide; adapting a build is ridiculously easy to achieve.

Edited October 25, 2020 by Myrmidon

[summers]

I just played my Dark Melee Scrapper through a mission after taking the time to respec into Touch of Fear on the beta server. The character is otherwise a copy of my Live one, and is level 46.

 

For mission clear speed, Touch of Fear is a vast improvement. I found that Shadow Maul is always problematic and changing the target cap didn't feel like a big difference since it's hard to hit 6 or more enemies in a 7' radius.

 

I do have a complaint about the power though - it is way, way, way too spammy. It's pretty much the best thing to do for AOE in a rotation and it casts slowly and recharges extremely fast. This means the old buzz-saw melee feel of Dark Melee is quickly gone - instead, I found myself simply endlessly casting this short range animation and it was almost immediately monotonous. I really wanted to be doing 'melee' instead of casting (that's why I picked a melee character!), and I found that spending 45% of my time doing just the one casting animation was, well... bleh. It was unfun.

 

Edit 1:

Image added so you can see just how spammy this attack is!

 

Two seconds of animating, 2.5 seconds of recharge. We're going to see this cast a zillion times for Dark Melee!

 

Edit 2:

Where did I get the 45% from?

2 second cast

2.5 second recharge

(okay, it's really 44.44%, but wow... I felt it straight away when I started playing!)

Edited October 25, 2020 by summers

[Riverdusk]

27 minutes ago, summers said:

I just played my Dark Melee Scrapper through a mission after taking the time to respec into Touch of Fear on the beta server. The character is otherwise a copy of my Live one, and is level 46.

 

For mission clear speed, Touch of Fear is a vast improvement. I found that Shadow Maul is always problematic and changing the target cap didn't feel like a big difference since it's hard to hit 6 or more enemies in a 7' radius.

 

I do have a complaint about the power though - it is way, way, way too spammy. It's pretty much the best thing to do for AOE in a rotation and it casts slowly and recharges extremely fast. This means the old buzz-saw melee feel of Dark Melee is quickly gone - instead, I found myself simply endlessly casting this short range animation and it was almost immediately monotonous. I really wanted to be doing 'melee' instead of casting (that's why I picked a melee character!), and I found that spending 45% of my time doing just the one casting animation was, well... bleh. It was unfun.

 

Edit 1:

Image added so you can see just how spammy this attack is!

 

Two seconds of animating, 2.5 seconds of recharge. We're going to see this cast a zillion times for Dark Melee!

 

Edit 2:

Where did I get the 45% from?

2 second cast

2.5 second recharge

(okay, it's really 44.44%, but wow... I felt it straight away when I started playing!)

I could see that.  I'd also vote for a bit longer recharge and appropriate damage scale.  

[Gobbledigook]

It's nice that Stalkers get an AoE in DM but for brutes/Tankers and Scrappers that is 4 AoE's in one power set. 

 

Why not work Soul drain and Dark consumption into one power and create a new AoE for all AT's. Remove ToF from Stalkers and give them the new AoE instead. Then turn ToF for scrappers/brutes and Tankers into another single target attack.

 

Stalkers would get 5 single target attacks and 2 AoE's. Brutes/Scrappers and Tankers will get 5 single target attacks and 2 AoE's plus one long cooldown AoE that buffs +damage, +to hit and +recovery or remove the dark consumption altogether and lower the costs of DA toggles and heal.

 

Just an idea.

Edited October 25, 2020 by Gobbledegook

[UpandAtom]

I think that adding some extra AoE into MA might've could've been been a change to, say, Crane Kick? Since it's so totally samey to Cobra Strike aside for one stuns and the other KBs. Adding it onto EC seems a weird choice. Keeping the aoe potential loaded in the back?

[Maxzero]

 

For Touch of Fear since only the inital target gets affected by the Fear and -hit does that mean any Fear based or -hit based proc (say Clouded Senses Neg Damage) would only have a chance to proc on the initial target?

Edited October 25, 2020 by Maxzero