Make Ice Control Cooler: A Control Powerset Buff

[Monos King]

19 minutes ago, Blackfeather said:

that was amazingly smooth

Slick, even?

[Blackfeather]

10 minutes ago, Monos King said:

Slick, even?

As ice! 😛

[Blackfeather]

Would also be curious as to @Tater Todd's thoughts on these proposed changes - hey there! I've seen you talk about Ice Control being somewhat lacklustre, so I'd definitely be interested in seeing whether or not you'd think these alterations to the set would give it a more level playing field in terms of performance, in comparison to the other Control powersets. Looking forward to your response, if you decide to drop by with one! 🙂

[Mr. Vee]

Seems like some good changes. I liked my ice/ice dom but not until I stopped using the aoe immob and just let the two auras do their work. I have to admit it didn't even occur to me to take shiver.

[Blackfeather]

6 hours ago, Veelectric Boogaloo said:

Seems like some good changes. I liked my ice/ice dom but not until I stopped using the aoe immob and just let the two auras do their work. I have to admit it didn't even occur to me to take shiver.

Glad to hear you like the sound of them! And yeah, Ice Control generally starts the fight either by wading in with Arctic Air, or attempting to trip up enemies with Ice Slick - I imagine Flash Freeze might be used similarly, but I tend to skip AoE Sleeps in most cases (hence the changes to that power).

 

Shiver's definitely nice, but unless one's facing enemies with high amounts of Slow resistances, it's generally not that necessary (maximum recharge debuff = -75% = x4 slower). As such, I thought it'd make for a semi-reliable opener for this set by taking inspiration from Neurotoxic Breath, of which it already shares a lot of similarities with, granting a chance to Hold.

 

The semi-reliable part comes in due to Ice Control having its own advantages with all of its -Recharge/-Movement: it's great for mitigating attacks over time, but not initially.

[Greycat]

19 hours ago, Monos King said:

@Blackfeather This seems cool. I'm curious though. Does adding damage to shiver interfere with use of Flash Freeze's sleep effect, or do you guys not use it in a way where that would matter?

Any damage would break a sleep, unless it's coded in to part of the sleep itself (like mesmerize.) So if you added damage to Flash Freeze, it likely would not, but if you hit them with a damaging Shiver (or frost breath from the Ice epic,) it would break.

 

(That said, if you're - say - hopping into the middle of a group of COT where a ruin mage just put up a dispersion bubble, broken right away or not, the sleep would shut that down, so it would still be helpful in keeping the mob defense down.)

[Darkneblade]

Good changes there especially with Flash Freeze. Though I'll add small lethal DoT when enemy destroyed ice formations. Mimicking ice shards should be able to damage enemy. This will help with set's abysmally low damage I think.

[Blackfeather]

11 minutes ago, Greycat said:

Any damage would break a sleep, unless it's coded in to part of the sleep itself (like mesmerize.) So if you added damage to Flash Freeze, it likely would not, but if you hit them with a damaging Shiver (or frost breath from the Ice epic,) it would break.

 

(That said, if you're - say - hopping into the middle of a group of COT where a ruin mage just put up a dispersion bubble, broken right away or not, the sleep would shut that down, so it would still be helpful in keeping the mob defense down.)

Indeed - and of course using Shiver first before Flash Freeze would negate that without too much of an issue, especially since the changes here were designed to make both decent early-level openers (if not as good as other Control powersets, due to the whole -Recharge/-Movement schtick of Ice).

 

One thing that does sound potentially annoying is Flash Freeze's interaction with damaging Incarnate Interfaces, but that's probably a bit more of an underlying issue more than anything else.

 

Plus, the changes made to Flash Freeze here do mean that they'll still hinder enemies to some degree, even if they wake up soon afterwards.

[Blackfeather]

46 minutes ago, Darkneblade said:

Good changes there especially with Flash Freeze. Though I'll add small lethal DoT when enemy destroyed ice formations. Mimicking ice shards should be able to damage enemy. This will help with set's abysmally low damage I think.

That could definitely work well! And adding some damage upon breaking free does make thematic sense. I'm not sure if that'd result in an increased amount of endurance expenditure, but given that it's kind of like damage over time, if it's spread out like that, perhaps an adjustment to endurance won't be necessary, not sure though, haven't really looked at those damage formulas and the like. Maybe I can summon @Bopper to weigh in one way or another?

[Bopper]

15 minutes ago, Blackfeather said:

@Bopper to weigh in one way or another?

If the damage is small and secondary, it shouldn't cost you any extra endurance.

[Vanden]

If the breaking icicles did damage, that would let the power double-dip on damage procs. Chance for damage on the initial cast, and again for every breaking icicle. Only the targeted AoE damage set procs, I think. Something to consider.

[MoisesG]

i would love these changes to Ice Control, but how likely are the devs to implement those changes?

[Blackfeather]

7 hours ago, Bopper said:

If the damage is small and secondary, it shouldn't cost you any extra endurance.

Oh, that's neat to hear, thank you for responding! Out of curiosity, would the same apply to Shiver, if minor damage were to be added to it? It's something that I was thinking about while proposing it.

5 hours ago, Vanden said:

If the breaking icicles did damage, that would let the power double-dip on damage procs. Chance for damage on the initial cast, and again for every breaking icicle. Only the targeted AoE damage set procs, I think. Something to consider.

Hmmm...that's definitely something to think about. On the other hand, @Sir Myshkin's mentioned in their Controller proc monster article that when it comes to proc potential, Ice Control does not have many opportunities to make use of them in the first place:

Quote

Low Capacity

• Ice
  • Only five proc-pacting attacks in this set, the only thing that can be said is that the few that can be maximized, should, and it'll help scale up the sets performance. What's interesting is that this sets lack of proc-dealing capacity is turning it into the least-damaging set because it lacks opportunities. It may thematically look cool, but Ice needs a generalist face lift for one or two abilities because a proc-world makes this set suffer.

So maybe that change wouldn't be so bad - but then adding some minor damage + chance to Hold in Shiver (can slot Targeted AoE & Hold enhancements), and allowing Ice Slick to slot Knockback/Slow enhancements alone might tip that balance too. Definitely something to discuss further!

Edited November 14, 2020 by Blackfeather

[Blackfeather]

11 hours ago, MoisesG said:

i would love these changes to Ice Control, but how likely are the devs to implement those changes?

Hey there! Glad to hear these changes piqued your interest. Basically, the way I see it is it's more likely than if one just says "oh, a buff to X" would be nice or "wouldn't it be neat if we had X" in passing conversation or something like that.

 

The influence that any one suggestion thread in general will be small: given that this is volunteer work, I figure that development works on a "wouldn't it be nice" basis, implementing things that any one dev decides they think would be interesting to do, and so on from there.

 

I view the role of suggestion threads as primarily inspirational, as a means of potentially prompting that "wouldn't it be nice" - fleshing out the details of a proposal helps demonstrate how such an idea might look in practice, which is where discussions of balance and numbers come in.

 

So on the off chance that the devs do happen to read this thread, the aim for any of the suggestions that I make is to be first and foremost inspiring to them. Well. That and making suggestion threads is fun, especially when you put a lot of style and pizzazz to them. In the same vein, I don't think @Tyrannical (oh, take a look at what I did to Flash Freeze's sleep if you haven't, might be of interest to you!) expects all of their (awesome!) suggestions to be implemented - but it's definitely enjoyable to try rolling up something cool sounding.

 

Hope this all makes sense!

Edited November 14, 2020 by Blackfeather

[MoisesG]

Thank you @Blackfeather for the response, and for taking the time to submit your suggestion.

 

I hope the devs take notice and implement your suggested changes because honestly they would make Ice Control so much more fun to play.

[Blackfeather]

23 minutes ago, MoisesG said:

Thank you @Blackfeather for the response, and for taking the time to submit your suggestion.

 

I hope the devs take notice and implement your suggested changes because honestly they would make Ice Control so much more fun to play.

Here's hoping! While it isn't Mind Control, Ice is also an old Control powerset - it came alongside it to my knowledge - and with it, some quirks. It'd be great if they manage to take a look at the Control powers in general one day, and maybe even their general role at the higher levels (something that I think @Sovera has mentioned in the past).

[Blackfeather]

Might have also found a bug that @WindDemon21 reported a little while back which sounds like it'd help Ice Control a bit as well:

That definitely sounds like it should be resolved - alongside the intended changes to Shiver, I imagined Flash Freeze to work as a good opener as well. If it ends up causing enemies to attack first, that doesn't sound like it's working as intended.

[Blackfeather]

Also going to ping @th0ughtGun for their thoughts on this proposal - hello! Saw you on the HC Discord talking about Ice Control and it being kind of slow at finishing off enemies and the like: while I think that it being somewhat lower in damage potential is kind of by design due to the ability of -Recharge/-Movement to effectively lock down things in prolonged fights, it could do with at least being brought up to comparable levels (if still lower).

 

Would definitely be interested in seeing your thoughts on these changes to Ice Control - while the main priority is providing the powerset with a way of mitigating alphas to some degree, it does try to address its relatively low damage output as well.

[Doomguide2005]

Changes look interesting.  I ran an Ice/Sonic controller on Live.  I had two major and related issues.  You'd think Sonic Resonance would have helped more in the damage department (for one low damage toon).  It didn't and as a result it ate end like crazy trying defeat anything.  Teamed I could deal with it, but solo holy nightmare trying to defeat anything.

[Blackfeather]

2 hours ago, Doomguide2005 said:

Changes look interesting.  I ran an Ice/Sonic controller on Live.  I had two major and related issues.  You'd think Sonic Resonance would have helped more in the damage department (for one low damage toon).  It didn't and as a result it ate end like crazy trying defeat anything.  Teamed I could deal with it, but solo holy nightmare trying to defeat anything.

Glad you like the look of them! I can corroborate with similar experiences. I've played a good amount of Ice Control/Nature Affinity, and a lot of my proposed changes came from my experiences with that combination, especially when compared to other control powersets.

 

While it was definitely soloable, it was quite comparatively slow - I ended up taking a pool power attack to help substitute its damage - and I usually ended up engaging mobs by opening up with Spore Cloud to reduce their accuracy: helpful, but also a drain on endurance, especially combined with Arctic Air. Once my controls were all established, it was safe as any other Control powerset, if not moreso, with its -Recharge and knockdown...but that "setup" phase is definitely pretty painful, and for relatively little gain.

 

So that's where Shiver came into play, giving it a chance to Hold, similar to Neurotoxic Breath (still thinking about whether I should bump the magnitude down to 2, but unsure of how useful that'd be), along with the added utility from Flash Freeze - two relatively effective openers that still won't beat the others. And of course, the additional damage attached to both of them might help with Ice Control's slow pace too...especially if people decide to play with the new enhancement proc options, implemented this way.

[Bopper]

18 hours ago, Blackfeather said:

Oh, that's neat to hear, thank you for responding! Out of curiosity, would the same apply to Shiver, if minor damage were to be added to it? It's something that I was thinking about while proposing it.

It would apply to any power. If it's minor and considerred a secondary effect, the endurance cost of the power has secondary effects baked in. It typically is when damage attacks have no secondary effects (DoT's, mezzes, debuffs) is when a recharge reduction (and an accompanied endurance reduction) is provided. Claws is an example of this.

[Tath99]

Question:  Which of the powers in the set are most apt for a damage buff?

 

-- Could the Pet be buffed?  What if Jack Frost were given [Icicles]?

-- What if Jack Frost if defeated, broke into smaller pets, ala the Devouring Earth?

 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 15, 2020 by Tath99

[Marbing]

10 hours ago, Blackfeather said:

Would definitely be interested in seeing your thoughts on these changes to Ice Control - while the main priority is providing the powerset with a way of mitigating alphas to some degree, it does try to address its relatively low damage output as well.

Hello! Cool to be noticed! 😎

 

I read through your changes and the flash freeze idea is very creative but may be too complicated to implement? Not sure. If they can pull it off it would be an awesome and welcome change to the set to help mitigate alpha which the set sorely needs. I get that this is a control over time set but that doesn't mean you should HAVE to take a -tohit secondary to have some way to mitigate a mega alpha strike. It's not unreasonable to ask that a controller be able to actually do some controlling before he/she is blasted into the dirt.

 

On that note, not sure I like shiver as a hold... even a chance for hold. (Though I wouldn't entirely rule it out) What about a big -dmg debuff? Much like the aura in ice armor (Chilling Embrace) but maybe more potent. That way if they do alpha you (or your team) it's for significantly less dmg? This would make sense, too. Though if you made the changes to flash freeze and then this you would effectively neuter any alpha strike which may be swinging the pendulum a bit too far?

 

As for adding dmg to the set, I like shiver having a dmg component to it, I'd even be fine with it being moderate level dmg too! Though that may be pushing it.

It makes sense and gives the set a nice AoE hit. I just don't want that to affect the recharge if the power... 

 

I get that controller sets aren't supposed to do a lot of damage but I don't think there is an Ice controller out there that wouldn't respond with "Yeah... But I mean... c'mon man!!". 

 

 

 

 

[Blackfeather]

4 hours ago, Bopper said:

It would apply to any power. If it's minor and considerred a secondary effect, the endurance cost of the power has secondary effects baked in. It typically is when damage attacks have no secondary effects (DoT's, mezzes, debuffs) is when a recharge reduction (and an accompanied endurance reduction) is provided. Claws is an example of this.

Thanks for the further information! It's definitely helpful - and nice to hear that the adjustments I'm proposing won't mean an adjustment in endurance expenditure. I didn't want to make any changes that'd impact that sort of thing...especially since I'm really not versed with the endurance formulas of the game.

1 hour ago, Tath99 said:

Question:  Which of the powers in the set are most apt for a damage buff?

 

-- Could the Pet be buffed?  What if Jack Frost were given [Icicles]?

-- What if Jack Frost if defeated, broke into smaller pets, ala the Devouring Earth?

...which leads on to this. Taking a brief look at the current powers, the actual powers in Ice Control that do deal damage are in line with all the others - for example, all the Holds/AoE Immobilizes/ST Immobilizes generally do the same amount of damage, with Fire and Plant Control being the exception, since they don't have any secondary effects attached to them (though for some reason Plant Control's AoE Immobilize does way more).

 

Basically, the higher the amount of damage that a power deals, the more endurance it costs, and it looks like this damage/endurance usage is fairly standardised across the Control powersets - I wanted to make the changes sensible, and fitting within the rules currently laid down in-game. I look at Darkness Control as a nice inspiration, which has quite a number of powers that can either deal damage outright, or can be procced out to do so, even though the powers themselves are relatively low damaging (as are most Control powers).

 

That's the kind of thing I tried to emulate with Ice Control, with the changes to Shiver and Flash Freeze: tack on some additional damage, provide opportunities for procs to function...and perhaps even allow for 'double dipping' due to how Flash Freeze now works, from what @Vanden said (though not sure how powerful that'd be in practice).

 

Funnily enough, I actually think Jack Frost is one of the best parts of Ice Control - he's a solid pet that also debuffs, and is fairly durable. They even have a -Recharge aura on their own, which stacks with Ice Control's own powers.

[Tath99]

Perhaps the question(s) needs to be asked another way:

 

-- Are there powers in the set which are /not/ FUN to use?

-- Are there powers in the set which are /not/ FUN to use solo?

-- Are there powers in the set which are /not/ FUN to use on a team?

 

-- Does the set work hard, and effectively but feel like an unsung hero (like Trick Arrow)?  Does it fulfil the player's fantasy?