Weekly Discussion 78: Incarnate Powers - a review of ultimate power!

[Blackfeather]

Going to put this over here.

[Darmian]

Incarnate stuff...ugh...the UI is fiddly, shards are simply unnecessary nonsense. They're part of an unfinished section of the game and unbalance anything where they were never meant to exist. If you were to Respec Recluse and his lieutenants as full Incarnates what would the Ms Liberty Task Force look like then?

 

I can see an uproar in certain quarters if they were to vanish, and I wouldn't suggest that because they do tie into the Lore and so on, but tidy what is there. Fix the UI, scrap shards for only threads (and any associated material such as being able to get Gr'ai Matter from the Vanguard base table, let that convert straight to threads).

 

Yes, "The Coming Storm", whatever.  The Coming Storm material in the AMA is directionless and dull waffle aimed at (a) more bottleneck end content and (b) paving the way for COH2. If there's going to be one of those it needs to be different. It's one of the few things where I am happy there is only a tiny volunteer dev team, because we're not getting that any time soon.

 

And add actual incarnate material to the AE. That would give many a taste for what possible future Incarnate material might feel like at the least. 

 

I'm probably the wrong person to comment here really. I'm 100% against driving the game into a bottleneck with end content creep and Incarnate powers are part of that. But it is what it is.

 

Edited November 23, 2020 by Darmian

[Aberrant]

Beyond the potentially unattainable goal of continuing the system and content for it? All I'd like is some more Judgement abilities to better fit characters, at least enough to cover each of the player damage types. 

 

Currently covered:
Smashing - Mighty PBAoE & Vorpal Cone

Cold - Cryonic Cone

Energy - Ion Chain

Fire - Pyronic TAoE

Negative Energy - Void PBAoE

 

Currently missing:

Lethal - A Teleport Blade Dash Cone - teleport like Lightning Rod, where you dash forward, slashing with an fx sword at the end for a wide Cone. -DEF and Knockdown Secondaries

Psionic - A Screeching PBAoE - using some of the screaming holding head animations (like on Carnies death). -Recharge and Fear Secondaries.

Toxic - Plague Chain infection - Could have lots of targets, and cause a heavy DoT and -DMG or -Res with a chance to hold with the vomiting animation.

[Grindingsucks]

So, my two bits:

 

What I like:  If I want to play a cosmic-level hero or villain like Marvel and DC's heavy-hitters, it provides an in-setting justification via the lore and gives the character an additional level of power relative to other characters that makes you FEEL god-like in combat.

 

What I don't like:  This additional potency, while fitting to the concept and mostly functional in solo play, becomes too powerful in groups, making group combat boring and too easy, even on +4/8 difficulty.  Yes, you can turn the powers off to make it harder, but sometimes I want to play the God Squad, and have a Thanos/Doomsday level threat that can actually pose a danger to our little band of cosmic super-toons.

 

Also (and I realize this is a minor/unimportant complaint) I don't like the ghost-like transparency of the lore pets.  Yes, I understand they're "aspects" of the well, rather than the actual creatures themselves.  I just would rather see the full detail of the standard model.  Also (and more importantly) only a few of them feel very useful.  The others simply die a handful of seconds after they enter combat.  Really, I'd like to see completely unique models, with better abilities.  I often don't bother to take lore pets, at all, as the utility is not worth the cost and effort to craft the ability and the choices are just not very interesting.

 

Balance of the Sets:  I don't have enough experience playing different incarnate characters/sets to offer an informed opinion on this, except to say that I HAVE unlocked and tried different judgement sets and none of them seem as appealing as Ion.  Though I do use other judgement powers apart from Ion, I choose them for thematic reasons and I'm always disappointed in how they perform, by comparison.  Either lower the damage on Ion, reduce the number of arcs that jump to other targets, or else buff the other Judgement attacks to bring them in line with Ion.

 

The Crafting System:  It's mostly okay, but I think all components should be able to be built using shards/threads.  Don't add influence into the mix.  If you think a rarer incarnate component should be harder to get, then make it cost a lot of shards and/or threads.  Also, while I'm fine with the tier system, the way that 3rd tier branches off into two is unnecessarily complicated and annoying.  If you need that extra speed bump, fine- but please just make it 5 tiers, instead, with the branching part it's own tier.  Here's a snip with the offending part circled in red to show exactly what I'm referring to, in-case I'm explaining it poorly: 

 

 

Where I'd like to see them go:  Well, apart from my few complaints, I'm mostly satisfied with how incarnates work.  What is missing, is truly awesome foes/threats to challenge GROUPS of incarnates (ergo, my God Squad comment, above).  I think new Incarnate tier characters/enemy groups need to be developed to provide the appropriate challenge for groups of this power level.  If you mean to add the other abilities that were planned during live, this is almost a necessity.  Adding MORE powers, at this point, would be meaningless without relevant threats to challenge groups of characters that possess them.

Edited November 23, 2020 by Grindingsucks

[Blackfeather]

43 minutes ago, Grindingsucks said:

Also (and I realize this is a minor/unimportant complaint) I don't like the ghost-like transparency of the lore pets.  Yes, I understand they're "aspects" of the well, rather than the actual creatures themselves.  I just would rather see the full detail of the standard model.

I believe they can be customised that way if you use the Minimal FX option for them.

[Grindingsucks]

2 hours ago, Blackfeather said:

I believe they can be customised that way if you use the Minimal FX option for them.

No kidding!?  It never occurred to me.  Thanks for the tip!  🙂👍

[UpandAtom]

They're all silly imbalanced, but they were supposed to be breaking the game (both mechanically and meta-wise) to lead up to a City of Heroes 2 from the sound of it so...mission accomplished.

I wish that Masterminds didn't have to cludge around with that one incarnate power so much. If that bit of code could be fixed somehow to not make you have to 'prime' the pet summons so they actually benefit, it would be nice.

[Takel]

I'm going to second the "do a balancing pass on the Lores"; I like to choose ones that thematically fit my character as much as I can, and while I know it mostly doesn't matter constantly seeing Banished Pantheon makes me feel like there's no real point.

 

As for the "op plz nerf" aspect that a lot of people are bringing up, that kind of seems like the whole point of Incarnate powers: you get them because your enemies are going to be strong enough that you need them to survive. I'd kind of like to lean into that; spread out some of the Incarnate-level enemies. For example, the same sort of "there's a Kheldian on the team" flag to spawn Quantum Gunner enemies could be used to spawn Incarnate-level enemies in regular missions when the PCs are strong enough.

[Vanden]

More Lore options please

 

 

[Six-Six]

Here's my two inf:
 

• What you like

I like the concept behind it; however, I don't think it's where it wants to be atm. The crafting is a nice grinding incentive.
I like the judgement effects, though some more than others.

• What don't you like

I personally don't like the incarnate system all that much. I think they make the toon so OP that most of the current content becomes too easy even at max difficulty and notoriety especially on a team of 8 fully T4'ed toons. Now if we were to have content that scaled with the power creep, then I suppose I wouldn't mind some godly powers. On some of my toons, I don't even bother with the incarnates. Others have them slotted, but the clickies are rarely used.

• Balance of the sets

I haven't tried all of them yet. but from those that I've tried:
- Musculature, Cardiac, and Vigor are great. Trying Nerve now. Resilient seems useless. 

- Judgement: Vorpal animation could use some love. Cryonic seems weak... (or maybe it's just how I use it). I would say Ion seems to have an unfair advantage over the others.

- Destiny, I've only tried Barrier, Ageless, and not the T4 of Rebirth and Clarion. I was a bit disappointed by Clarion. the rest are great. 
- All 4 (core and radial) Hybrids are awesome
- Lore. Wow. so many choices. 😃  But still, can I petition the Warcry and Malta mechs please.

* I do have a suggestion for the Lore pets that might not be as popular. I propose the pets available to you should be linked to what Gladiator Badges you have earned. It will be kinda like having to unlock your lore pet choice. That and the option for skins and/or at least colour change for pets.

• The crafting system

My only comment on the crafting system is either to get rid of the shards or make all others be craftable with shards. If it's the latter, please make Notice of the Well easier to attain by offering more opportunities for its drops. Also, I would appreciate a way to break down a crafted incarnate much like breaking down an incarnate component.

• Where you'd like to see them go

I'd like to see more fitting content for such powerful pieces. I suppose the iTrials used to be that. but they are hardly a challenge when you have 16 - 24 overpowered teammates. Also, more thematic powers for Judgement would be great. We have Dark, Elec, Fire, Ice, and 2 melees (Mighty and Vorpal). Someone suggested a blade one, a gatling gun (or a howitzer artillery barrage--for pistols and ass rifle) and an orbital strike which I think are awesome. Some suggestions:
Tsunami for Water or Wind/Storm/hurricane

Berserker Rage for Claws or Savage (similar to Vorpal)
Meteor Strike or Landslide for Stone or Nature or Gravity
Shockwave (I imagine something like a radial or conic Shockwave) for Sonic

Murder of Crows ( or a flurry??? --whatever a flock-- of bats is called), zombie horde, Mot Maw from the ground or for a demonic theme

Toxic Spray for SoAs/Widows or Poison or Radiation
Quill burst (cone or radius) for Arrows or Plant/thorns or Martial Assault (Shuriken)

Sorry, that may have been more than 2 inf. 

[BurtHutt]

I don't think any new powers should be added. Incarnate powers have made toons too powerful and they steamroll most of the content when they have access to the powers. I don't think the HC Dev team have resources to pump out content (missions, SF,TF, Trials etc) where the incarnates can be challenged. 

 

I'd clean up the interface a bit and not much else. I don't mind the system but I don't really pay too much attention to it. It's great that I can progress in it doing regular content and I casually add the powers as I go along and craft for the slots.

 

I know players want more endgame content but that's a never-ending request. If you add more slots, eventually players will want more beyond those and so on. Since resources are limited, add items that are more universal like missions etc. If you must add to the incarnate slots, take a different approach....no idea what that might be but making a toon more powerful isn't really necessary right now. There's no way we'll get enough things to do that will challenge the player.

[DSorrow]

What I like:

Alpha slot is probably my favorite. The effect isn't extreme but Alpha slots offer a lot of flexibility in slotting as you can choose to push one particular stat above the ED cap or free up slots by getting some of your "necessary" stats from the Alpha. Most of the Alpha abilities are also pretty well balanced in the sense that they give something generally valuable to any build (basically those that offer Damage / Acc / EndRedux / Rech / Def / Res), but there are a couple that could be slightly improved to match.

 

Interface is also cool, the increase to character power isn't massive, but it can be thematically cool. The only thing I dislike about Interface is how Reactive and Degenerative are quite a bit better than the others, so I'd give a look at some of the debuff values and mez effect chances to make them more enticing.

 

Lore, while it's hideously OP it isn't available all the time, so at least it doesn't completely trivialize everything. Hybrid is also in a nice spot, the passive effect isn't groundbreaking and while the active effect is nice, it isn't an extreme buff that's available all the time.

 

What I don't like:

Destiny and Judgment. There's nothing wrong with these inherently, but I think that the team buff effect from Destiny should be scaled down significantly outside of actual Incarnate content so that a couple of people running Barrier/Ageless doesn't make all support mostly useless. As for Judgment, I'd just increase the cooldown to somewhere between 5-10 mins, at least outside of Incarnate content. The nukes itself are fun, but again a couple of people having them within a team means everything melts pretty much instantly all the time. For attacks as powerful as they are I think they're just usable way too often.

 

Where I'd like the system to go:

Not sure, honestly, but I think we already need higher difficulty settings and additional Incarnate abilities will only make them more wanted. If any new Incarnate abilities are added, I'd like to see the level shifts apply only to Incarnate content (and maybe not all of it so we don't end up with -1 Apex, for example) and the new Incarnate abilities having a more limited boost outside of Incarnate content.

[Grouchybeast]

- Remove or reduce the rate of Incarnate XP gain outside of Incarnate content.

- Get rid of shards, to simplify the business of making powers.

- Reduce the vet level component rewards.

- Reduce thread drops outside Incarnate content.

- Make the interface less awful.  At the very least, put a giant flashing arrow next to the scroll bar, but preferably just redesign the whole thing.

- Stop all Incarnate slots other than Alpha from working outside of Incarnate content.  Stop the Alpha level shift working outside of Incarnate content.

- Limit the Incarnate level shifts to working in iTrial content (i.e. no level shifts in Dark Astoria).

- Increase the recharge on Judgments.

- Reduce the power of Destinies.

- Absolutely do not add any more Incarnate slots until there's matching content and a roadmap for how to regularly add more.  Do not do this unless it can be done alongside making content for the non-Incarnate game.  If there's only time and resources to make one type of content, make non-Incarnate.

Edited November 23, 2020 by Grouchybeast

[tidge]

1 hour ago, Grouchybeast said:

- Remove or reduce the rate of Incarnate XP gain outside of Incarnate content.

Even though I have level 50s that don't slot Incarnate powers, I deeply appreciate that those toons can still slowly unlock the slots.

 

Has anyone yet mentioned Mastermind pets in Incarnate content?

[Zepp]

I like the innate stuff (Alpha, Interface, and the passive portion of Hybrid).

 

The Judgement is nice too (but I often play trollers, making it a meaningful tool).

 

Lore, Destiny, and Hybrid toggles are a bit annoying. They are very powerful, but they also lead to a very feast or fast feeling of power. Get all three going and you are a god, until they dissipate and you are left exposed.

 

The level shift is also a tad annoying as the level mechanics in this game play a significant (some would say overly significant) role in determining accuracy and damage.

 

If Lore, Destiny, and Hybrid toggles can be toned down and spread out I would enjoy it more, but I'm not sure if everyone would agree to that.

[Ruin Mage]

I particularly don't mind the whole system given it is unfinished and will likely remain that way.

At best, fix the UI up and maybe figure how to optionally disable the stuff in teams outside of Dark Astoria/iTrials.

Wham bam, thank you.

[Heraclea]

10 hours ago, Takel said:

I'm going to second the "do a balancing pass on the Lores"; I like to choose ones that thematically fit my character as much as I can, and while I know it mostly doesn't matter constantly seeing Banished Pantheon makes me feel like there's no real point.

I always pick lore pets for theme, and as such one of my spiritist characters ended up with Banished Pantheon.  Which I now consider a mistake.  If some kind of balance pass is done on Lore pets, it should include a size pass, and no Lore pet should be taller than a typical player character.  The ubiquity of BP Lores is made more annoying by the fact that they're friggin' huge. 

[Hew]

I think some things are kind of MEH at best, and really dont work at all for some.

 

For instance, paralytic debuffs the debuff you apply from powers that debuff in some circumstances!!! ( if you do -def, it actually makes you do LESS -def; the same is true for -res)

 

Look no further than gravitic radial!! (which I REALLY want to use on my storm/water fender or ta/rad fender).

 

All around they work pretty good. I agree, the UI kind of stinks. It isn't the worst, but something could be better.

 

Would I like new powers? Maybe, but im not sure what! Maybe an alternate to clarion (patch?) that provides rez proof? Just patches in general!

 

[BrandX]

On 11/22/2020 at 4:07 AM, GM ColdSpark said:

 

 

Things to think about:

• What you like
• What don't you like
• Balance of the sets
• The crafting system
• Where you'd like to see them go

 

🙂

 

Destiny's I feel tend to gravitate towards faves.  Possibly for concept reasons.  Could likely be toned down a bit for normal play at any rate.

 

Interface, I'd like to see some new ones added, that allow me match up with concepts a bit more.  Like a Cold Damage Proc.  Not sure how even they are, as those seem to be pretty much 1 of 3 for most people (could be wrong) but I've taken the Negative Energy/Immobilize on my Tanker and Energy/-END for concepts, so I'm sure others have too.

 

I have no issue with the crafting system.

 

Would like to see more Judgement ideas.  Like a Psy Judgement.

 

Alternate animations for them would be nice too.

[Black Zot]

I knew this thread would bring out the nerfherders.

 

Seriously, can we have even ONE discussion about Incarnate stuff that doesn't involve a bunch of people whining "I don't like that these people are allowed to have fun, take it away"?  Just ONCE?

[Blastit]

18 minutes ago, Black Zot said:

I knew this thread would bring out the nerfherders.

 

Seriously, can we have even ONE discussion about Incarnate stuff that doesn't involve a bunch of people whining "I don't like that these people are allowed to have fun, take it away"?  Just ONCE?

You're not the one who sets the terms of the discussion, so no. "This is poorly balanced" is a fairly common opinion in MMO stuff, anyway, so if you can't deal with it then discussion threads aren't a good fit for you.

[Kazuuk]

I would STRONGLY urge the devs to consider that the opinion of this thread does not match the in game community at all.  Keep in mind, only a statistically insignificant portion of the player base even reads here, let alone posts.  This particular topic is one where even when the game was live, there was a small, but VERY vocal portion of the community that hated the power creep of incarnate and were always WAY oversampled in threads.  Here we are seeing that same dynamic.  I probably wouldn't add more incarnate powers unless it was feasible to add incarnate content, but I would tread very carefully before nerfing them.  

[Seed22]

8 hours ago, DSorrow said:

What I like:

Alpha slot is probably my favorite. The effect isn't extreme but Alpha slots offer a lot of flexibility in slotting as you can choose to push one particular stat above the ED cap or free up slots by getting some of your "necessary" stats from the Alpha. Most of the Alpha abilities are also pretty well balanced in the sense that they give something generally valuable to any build (basically those that offer Damage / Acc / EndRedux / Rech / Def / Res), but there are a couple that could be slightly improved to match.

 

Interface is also cool, the increase to character power isn't massive, but it can be thematically cool. The only thing I dislike about Interface is how Reactive and Degenerative are quite a bit better than the others, so I'd give a look at some of the debuff values and mez effect chances to make them more enticing.

 

Lore, while it's hideously OP it isn't available all the time, so at least it doesn't completely trivialize everything. Hybrid is also in a nice spot, the passive effect isn't groundbreaking and while the active effect is nice, it isn't an extreme buff that's available all the time.

 

What I don't like:

Destiny and Judgment. There's nothing wrong with these inherently, but I think that the team buff effect from Destiny should be scaled down significantly outside of actual Incarnate content so that a couple of people running Barrier/Ageless doesn't make all support mostly useless. As for Judgment, I'd just increase the cooldown to somewhere between 5-10 mins, at least outside of Incarnate content. The nukes itself are fun, but again a couple of people having them within a team means everything melts pretty much instantly all the time. For attacks as powerful as they are I think they're just usable way too often.

 

Where I'd like the system to go:

Not sure, honestly, but I think we already need higher difficulty settings and additional Incarnate abilities will only make them more wanted. If any new Incarnate abilities are added, I'd like to see the level shifts apply only to Incarnate content (and maybe not all of it so we don't end up with -1 Apex, for example) and the new Incarnate abilities having a more limited boost outside of Incarnate content.

Support outside of +Res and debuffs are already made useless due to IOs. Coming from a pre-shutdown support mostly player(I had at least 25 50s, mostly controllers/fenders), I can say trying to shoe-horn support usefulness by taking away from others instead of creating content that is more difficult(time consuming w/resources avail. I know) will only serve to irritate others, and make them more likely to lean even further into min/max IO territory, and leave support even further in the dust. Best not to do that.

 

Honestly? My opinion on the Incarnate system is that really everything is fine as is. More interesting and difficult content should be created in order to combat the OP nature of Incarnates to keep the challenge fresh, but other than that? It's fine. Support can take Judgement too and aid in the floor mopping, and Destiny to provide use as well. 

Edited November 23, 2020 by Seed22

[Blastit]

13 minutes ago, Kazuuk said:

I would STRONGLY urge the devs to consider that the opinion of this thread does not match the in game community at all.  Keep in mind, only a statistically insignificant portion of the player base even reads here, let alone posts.  This particular topic is one where even when the game was live, there was a small, but VERY vocal portion of the community that hated the power creep of incarnate and were always WAY oversampled in threads.  Here we are seeing that same dynamic.  I probably wouldn't add more incarnate powers unless it was feasible to add incarnate content, but I would tread very carefully before nerfing them.  

If incarnate powers are changed so that you can no longer steamroll 45-50 at +4, just play on a lower difficulty setting.

[Kazuuk]

3 minutes ago, Blastit said:

If incarnate powers are changed so that you can no longer steamroll 45-50 at +4, just play on a lower difficulty setting.

If you don't like incarnate powers, just play the vast majority of the games content which occurs 1-49.