Weekly Discussion 83: Task/Strike force revamps - in detail

[BurtHutt]

On 1/3/2021 at 9:07 AM, SentaiLavender said:

The original devs clearly learned over time what the players wanted out of TFs. Several of the old Freedom Phalanx / Task Force Commander TFs really show their age these days, particularly with Positron and Sister Psyche having been revamped. Most obviously, Citadel and Synapse are rather miserable. They feel tedious, even when a team clears them quickly. Just the exact same objectives and enemy groups over and over and over, culminating with an AV who melts in seconds. I wager that if you polled the community on which TFs most desperately need a revamp, those two would come out on top.

 

The other Freedom Phalanx TFs are fine, in my opinion. I still enjoy Manticore -- it has slightly fewer missions than Citadel or Synapse, a good mix of glowies / defeat alls / defeat bosses / hunts, and a fun boss fight at the end. And it's kind of lame that most of the missions in Numina are just streetsweeping mobs that con gray to you, but I honestly enjoy the coordination required to pull one off in a reasonable amount of time.

 

There could probably be some discussion on revamping the Shadow Shard TFs, but I think that's best saved for a future conversation about the Shadow Shard as a whole. All of those maps are complete ghost towns, and it's due to a lot of more than just "all the TFs here are too long."

This. I went on a Citadel TF once since I found out Homecoming was a thing. I hate that TF. Never again. I think it's far worse than Synapse. It's awful game design and just boggles the mind - I can only assume the Devs who implemented it into the game were told they want players to be on as long as possible. Hence the awful missions/TFs that cause players to remain logged on keep playing so they would have to keep subscribing etc.

 

It's too bad they couldn't be more creative on how to keep players logged on but I get it. The longer it takes, the longer people need to play and the longer they needed to subscribe. However, it is just awful stuff. 

 

For any revamps, the Devs have to remember, when doing missions, TFs/SFs etc, most of the team do NOT get a chance to read the text. So, any revamps really need to consider this. I've made suggestions on how to deliver text so that all can read it and not just fly through and be pushed to rush through.

 

I think the TFs that need to change are Citadel (aka CitaHELL) and the shadow shard material. I feel we've discussed this before though...

Edited January 5, 2021 by BurtHutt

[Piecemeal]

*looks in with hand-warming gestures*

[ivanhedgehog]

On 1/3/2021 at 11:05 AM, The_Warpact said:

• Which ones would you like to see reworked? Why?

Trim the Defeat Alls, especially zone a to zone b to kill mobs in each zone.

 

More importantly (at least to me) scale to lvl. Example, team of 50s start a Posi 2, then enemies scale to lvl, vs a lvl 54 Dr. Vahz is alot better then lvl 50 scaling down to lvl 20.

Or...

Give the option at least scaling down on a 50 to that lvl especially with attuned io heroes is a joke. That way if a mixed team of heroes want to play the current way then its acceptable for them.

But, definitely give the option to do these TF/SF at max level to promote more of a "end game" feel.

 

 

• What makes a "good" TF?        

The rewards of course so I suggest this.

Risk vs Reward, increase rewards based on difficulty. 

Say you do a ITF its 26 merits, but, if you crank up the diff to a master run its still 26 merits, that seems imbalanced.

 

 

 

 

• If you had the power - what would a revamp of X Task Force look like?

I think with the above suggestions more lvl 50+ toons would run lower lvl missions on a scaled to lvl basis with difficulties increased for the larger payoffs.

Maybe give the option also of 3 reward options,

Merits of course, or a incarnate salvage option, or a crystal titan, hami, or Hydra enhancements.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I am against scaling. part of the fun is dealing with enemies at the level they are. how do you deal with them with only the powers of that level? That is part of the fun. not having your full kit adds to it. I tend to do lower level tfs with a toon about the appropriate levl.  I have to agree with the kill alls in nearly identical missions. gets boring fast. Dr Q I am looking at you.

Edited January 5, 2021 by ivanhedgehog

[summers]

Good TFs:

• Unique locations - we've seen warehouses, we don't need more. Give us a sense of wonder, like this is really the climax of an important story!
• Interesting mechanics - fighting 50,000 council and then a bigger council AV with 50,000 hp isn't interesting. Give a variety of challenge that doesn't require a specific group makeup, nor invalidate any particular character, but creates meaningful strategy above and beyond nuke them all.
• Simple but varied objectives - simple; because teams want to play as teams and not stand around while one person clicks through branching dialog (1), nor do they all want to memorise a choregraphed dance sequence to defeat a boss (2), varied; because endless defeat alls might as well be radio missions that you can't quit on. No defeat alls where the last enemy is hiding in a closet, and no click X number of Y's, to discover that the last Y was on the second floor of a 5 story office building.
• 20 minute to 1 hour duration - enough to tell a decent story, but make it concise please.

[Max Firepower]

Some TFs seem to give crazy fast merits.  I did one of the Shards TFs... most of team was Incarnates, not ratcheted up crazy. We had ATT, did great communication and finished in a little over 2 hours.  I think we received 20 merits.

 

I have zero interest in the $hart missions other than playing with friends.  I would help a friend, if I really needed to.

 

Past that, too much fed ex, waaaay too many 1.0 to 2.0+ mile flights for no discernible purpose other than ‘this zone is big, yo... respect!’ Add in missions that are bugged (AV won’t appear), and I think that I would flush Shard and fight to bring back GC as an upgrade.

[The_Warpact]

26 minutes ago, ivanhedgehog said:

I am against scaling. part of the fun is dealing with enemies at the level they are. how do you deal with them with only the powers of that level? That is part of the fun. not having your full kit adds to it. I tend to do lower level tfs with a toon about the appropriate levl.  I have to agree with the kill alls in nearly identical missions. gets boring fast. Dr Q I am looking at you.

Hence why I gave an option of either scaling to max lvl or letting it stay the same.

I find it boring scaling down to a certain lvl and using the same couple of powers to defeat a boss, ESPECIALLY if you have difficulty cranked up then your relying on Shivans and daggers to win.

[SeraphimKensai]

Having played since Beta back in spring of 2004, I've probably done a few thousand runs through various task forces. That said there once was a time when they were challenging and required teamwork, there was a chance to fail them. I'd like to see that come back.

 

I also strongly think that reward merits should scale based on difficulty of the TF, and some mechanism should be implemented to prevent changing difficulty on a TF once started. I'm typically a speed runner and there's no point in me doing the ITF on a +4 kill all for the same 26 merits that roughly 13 minutes nets me. Myself and a lot of players have tons of max level characters that we don't need influence or do, but having a good incentive to come on a +4 kill all would help.

 

Getting rid of repetitive missions is a no brainer. I'm all for enriched lore and stories guiding us through the TF. Give us a sense of urgency, why this is something that needs to be completed and make the big fights memorable.

 

I'm all for new TFs as well as updating and modernizing old ones, however having played since '04, having the old ones in Ouros are nice, like the old school Posi and Sister Psyche/Aurora Borealis/Calvin Scott/Malaise/Statesman etc.

 

Thanks.

[Zepp]

The three issues most people have with TFs are:
Too many defeat-all missions (your a task force, you should be task-oriented and focused on a goal rather than mass slaughter)

Too much zoning (not as big of an issue anymore, but still annoying -- mainly a time sink that takes you out of the experience)

Too many hunts [looking at you Numina] (This seems unfocused and more of a time sink than a valuable use of time, also target mobs are often under-level)

 

My proposed solution:

Change most defeat-all missions into assassination missions where the target is randomly placed on the map.

Where possible, shift missions to one zone.

Replace hunts with Zone ambushes - go to waypoint to find target, when in proximity, you are met with 1-3 waves of ambushes.

[iBot]

16 hours ago, Eva Destruction said:

Regular missions do NOT work like that.  Regular missions have a 5- or 10- level range, just like most TFs do,  Some of the newer ones have a 20-level range, but that's the limit and people tend to run them at the high end of that range.  Mobs do not scale accordingly for higher levels; low-level mobs have fewer attacks, lower damage, fewer status effects, fewer debuffs.  Higher level groups will mez you, two-shot you, debuff you, and hang out with Sappers.  A team running Posi often wipes if you accidentally aggro two spawns at once, whereas high-level TFs expect you to fight multiple AVs at once, and teams rarely wipe.  Making low-level TFs remotely playable at 50 would require pretty much an entire redesign, and would make it significantly harder for low-level characters to find a TF team on which they can actually play instead of jogging along while a tricked out incarnate Brute solos the whole thing.

 

 

I guess I wasn't clear in my intent with the idea.  When a level 50 joins a team that is being run by a level 25 the level 50 becomes 25.  So if the 25 starts a mission everyone on the team is 25 or 24.  This is the behavior we have currently.  I would like the option to have the reverse also work in that if the level 50 starts the TF then the 25 becomes 49 and everyone runs at the higher level.  Yes there is the potential for a level 1 to join a TF being run by a level 50 and the new level 49 with only 1 attack would be severely out matched both in powers available and in slots.  However, this is currently no different then a level 50 team running level 50 content that has a level 1 join for fun.  I just want the option to run any TF at any level.  Within the current design it may not be feasible but would be nice to not have to worry about minimum requirements.

[Mr. Vee]

I'm with folks that Synapse, Citadel and Numina need a rework. Not thrilled with Mantis either but that could be fixed just by making the old men's follow mechanics better or making them assemble eligible and maybe making the requirements on the end more clear (as far as I can tell only the larger turrets count toward spawning Duray?). Virgil, Renault, Manticore, all the trees and newly fun respecs (after the gaps were removed, thanks so much!) and even Mistral (though I could do without the first mission being kill all since the map can be a jerk) are fine as they are. The newer stuff like Yin, Posi 1& 2 and Morty Kal are much more fun. The shard ones are terrible too but I'm not entirely sure they're worth revamping since the zones themselves are also a pain.

 

Most of all I'd like a new high level co-op or 6. But please, for our sanity, no more long cutscenes or yammering dialogue breaks (looking at you apex). They're great the first few times but some of us are running these things dozens or even hundreds of times. 

 

[gameboy1234]

21 hours ago, iBot said:

NO STREET SWEEPS... ok well if not NONE then maybe at least make the sweep something that the group is actually in the area and we don't have to hunt the whole zone for the 1 or 2 spawns that happen.  Make the sweep a large ambush instead.

Using instances for this might work.  "Do something that is not inside a door" is a good way to break up a TF.  If the players were directed to a spot on the map that was instanced, for example, with a large number of Clockwork causing some sort of mayhem that they need to defeat, that seems like it might be a good way to both eliminate both a tedious hunt through a map and also provide something more interesting than just more "defeat all" maps.  Maybe add one or more EBs that are "mini-Paladins" or something to add a large enemy to defeat.  The clocks could be building the EBs and then they could come to life in the middle of the fight.

 

Of course someone will have to add some instances to the above ground sections of Steel and Skyway, but hopefully that is not too much work.

 

[QuiJon]

I think time should be looked into. Snypse comes to mind as one that could really stand the Positron treatment. Maybe revamp the missions a bit but split it into two TFs also.

 

The main thing for me is that i like the idea that a TF or SF has a unique mechanic to it that perhaps is not seen in game elsewhere. So changing positron to fight dark images of yourself was kind of cool. The nictus that rez the AV on ITF, or how Recluse has power colums etc.  And i really hate it when i feel like things are a waste of time or just there fore timesink purposes. Example of that would be like the hunting in every zone of Numina. The vast majority of those mobs you have to kill are totally grey to you its just a time sink to kill them. I think replacing all those missions with maybe 2-3 train missions that take you to city maps populated with various mobs at your TF level to hunt down x number of whatever would be more fun with less useless travel time. Maybe kill less types of mobs but more of each at your level or higher.

 

And i do think an "ultra" version of TF would be fun also. A way to run every TF with its normal mobs at 50 instead of always having to play down. It would be kind of fun to see what a level 50 incarnate Hellion could do to me. 

[gameboy1234]

On 1/3/2021 at 4:23 PM, Eva Destruction said:

Citadel: Cut the second mission, the "defeat base leader and guards" after you take the parts to the guy, and two of the three defeat-alls at the end.

This might be obvious but Citadel also has a problem that players first have to do a mish in Talos, then in Independence Port, then back in Talos, then back in IP, then back to Talos, then back again to IP, etc.  For almost every mission players must travel to a new zone, which is just nuts.  Three to four missions in Talos, then three to four in IP please.

 

Other thoughts:

 

There's been some discussion about telling story through the mechanics. I think frequently the location of  a mission matters.  If we're to feel like we're moving through a story, sending us to random locations on a map doesn't really cut it.  Some thought the physical location of a mission on a map, and how it integrates into the story are also important.  Like if we're to discover a secret Council base, then we should be doing that, each mission moving closer somehow to that secret base.  To me a lot of current missions don't do that.  This might involve some special maps, but they don't have to be very special.  Adding some carefully chosen equipment and enemy characters so that each map doesn't feel identical to the last would help.  If we're investigating Council for stealing equipment from a warehouse in the first mission, that equipment better show up in the secret base in the last mission.

 

Also adding cut scenes was mentioned (specifically for the Clockwork King).  I think all missions in TFs should have a short cut scene when players enter the mission, which summarizes the mission text and explains what the players are expected to accomplish.  Too much story and explanation is lost by the current system of dispensing missions, we need a way to make sure everyone is participating in the expository parts of a story.

 

[BurtHutt]

I mentioned (as did others) the text and dialogue is lost on the team if they aren't the lead. In addition to changing some of these TFs, you could also change the way the mission info is disseminated. One of my previous suggestions was to have unique loading screens and on those screens have 1 or 2 sentences summarizing that portion of the TF/SF etc. The Devs could simply use relevant (to the TF) screenshots as the loadscreen (pics of the main characters might be a good option) and then a quick summary.

 

I also see a few very talented artist and graphic types on the forums who could also be asked to contribute unique art for the loadscreens. This was part of a previous suggestion as well (on adding AE missions to the game) and adds another unique piece to the TFs etc. 

 

Again, the Citadel TF is my shining example of what I dislike. It's essentially the same mission (in appearance), in multiple zones and it has some caves....over and over. It is painful. Have I mentioned that?! lol

Edited January 5, 2021 by BurtHutt

[Moonscribe]

On 1/3/2021 at 7:23 PM, Eva Destruction said:

Dr Q:  Hold an AE contest to rewrite this TF, winner gets put in the game.  You can cover the entire plot of this long, pointless slog in five missions and even with the limited tools available in AE it would still be more interesting than what is in the game.  The other Shard TFs could use some cuts but this one....they had an entire new zone to play with, a whole new chunk of lore that could have been explored in so much depth, and this, this is what they came up with.  Did the development team hold a "write the worst TF" contest?  Was it a deliberate middle finger to the playerbase?  Was someone high?  Does it really matter?  It's terrible.

Haha, I experienced this for the first time solo on Homecoming a while back, and wow, I knew it was supposed to be bad, but I was not prepared. I'm not sure if I could have been. I laughed out loud when Dr. Q said "If it were a snake, it would have bitten me!" because that does such a great job summing up all the "revelations" in this TF that you probably figured out multiple defeat-alls ago.

 

But I love the Shard despite its many issues, and I had plenty of thoughts about how Dr. Q could be better when I ran the thing, so here's my suggestion for what the Dr. Q task force could become:
 

Spoiler

Mission 1: Combines the first five missions of the original TF. You are sent straight into a Rularuu cave, without any hunt missions preceding it, to rescue explorers from the Rularuu. But when you get there you find that some of them have been killed by high-tech weapons. Waiting at the end of the mission is a Crey boss whom you defeat and capture - maybe the cave is even a new map that transitions into a secret lab where Crey is capturing Rularuu for their experiments, which the explorers stumbled onto after following some mysterious researchers. This plus the fact that you can literally see Crey mobs all over the zone is more than enough info for Dr. Q to conclude that Crey is, in fact, in the Shard causing trouble.

 

Mission 2: Combines missions 6 through 13 of the original TF. NPC scouts have located a major Crey base for you (in Firebase Zulu, not Paragon City), and you go attack it and arrest the leader, NOT everyone in it. In that base you discover advanced portal tech Crey used to get into the zone, escaped Rularuu using it to build dimensional gizmos that could get them into Primal Earth if completed, and evidence that the tech comes from Nemesis. Also, there are Crey operatives planning to meet with somebody at an unexplored location about said tech.

 

Mission 3: Combines missions 14 through 16 of the original TF. You go to the unexplored location and find it is a Nemesis stronghold, which uses the cool map from the RWZ arcs. It's already under attack by the Rularuu, so you have to arrest all the Crey representatives and the Nemesis leader while fending off Rularuu ambushes. (Maybe said leader has a cool new experimental EB Nemesis has been working on there in secret - a weather control automaton, to follow up on the Meteorologist mini-arc?) You also learn about the times and locations of interdimensional transits planned by Crey and Nemesis.

 

Mission 4: Combines missions 17 through 19 of the original TF. There is one Crey base in the Shard and one in Paragon involved in the next transit, and you head to the one in the Shard while NPC heroes simultaneously shut down the one in Paragon - maybe you even get to communicate with them remotely, and hit glowies to deactivate security systems in the other base, cut off squads of bosses coming at you through the portal, etc. Unfortunately, Countess Crey's legal superpowers have already gotten her out of jail by this point, despite your heroic efforts with Janet Kellum earlier. You must defeat her and Hopkins as a team in order to shut down Crey's efforts here for good. But in the process, you learn there was a second portal base Crey was using where they were transporting Rularuu into Paragon, and they've lost contact with that base.

 

Mission 5: Combines missions 20 through 22 of the original TF. While Crey's second portal base was easily shut down by other heroes after Countess Crey's arrest last mission, the transported Rularuu have already escaped into Oranbega and you must stop their final attempt to build a portal to the Shadow Shard and start an invasion. This time you do have to go to Paragon City, but at least you don't have to go back, and the mission is in Peregrine now so it's relatively quick to get to it. You must defeat every Rularuu mob present, but the map is mostly Circle so it is not a defeat-all. But you do also have to defeat a powerful Circle AV on site, perhaps Baron Zoria himself (or rather, the powerful Oranbegan mage who has been possessing his body - I forget what happened to him in canon, so not sure if this works or not). Or maybe a cool new Circle AV who is harnessing the power of Rularuu directly, Rulu-Shin style, and thinks they can channel it into a new magical power source that will lead Oranbega to supremacy once again.

 

Moral of the story is as before: please don't let the Rularuu out of the Shard, it's bad. Also of course the Countess successfully argues in court she was there to shut down these illegal operations in the Shard, not oversee them, and gets out of jail before you know it.

 

[Eva Destruction]

3 hours ago, gameboy1234 said:

There's been some discussion about telling story through the mechanics. I think frequently the location of  a mission matters.  If we're to feel like we're moving through a story, sending us to random locations on a map doesn't really cut it.  Some thought the physical location of a mission on a map, and how it integrates into the story are also important.  Like if we're to discover a secret Council base, then we should be doing that, each mission moving closer somehow to that secret base.  To me a lot of current missions don't do that.  This might involve some special maps, but they don't have to be very special.  Adding some carefully chosen equipment and enemy characters so that each map doesn't feel identical to the last would help.  If we're investigating Council for stealing equipment from a warehouse in the first mission, that equipment better show up in the secret base in the last mission

 

 

It's funny you should mention that in relation to Citadel, where the first two missions are usually the same door.  It's extremely immersion-breaking.

 

I think the Hess TF does a good job of making it feel like the missions are set in the world, with the last three mission doors being on the sides of the volcano and the Megamech visible through a window in the map.  Now if only they could send you to the radar stations in order instead of making you run back and forth across the map....

2 hours ago, BurtHutt said:

I mentioned (as did others) the text and dialogue is lost on the team if they aren't the lead. In addition to changing some of these TFs, you could also change the way the mission info is disseminated. One of my previous suggestions was to have unique loading screens and on those screens have 1 or 2 sentences summarizing that portion of the TF/SF etc. The Devs could simply use relevant (to the TF) screenshots as the loadscreen (pics of the main characters might be a good option) and then a quick summary.

Sutter and Kal do a pretty good job of keeping everyone updated on the plot, using floating text that the whole team can read, evolving mission objectives, and short cutscenes.  The cutscenes could be shorter--the Faultline and Fusion part is completely unnecessary, since they have nothing to do with the plot, Odysseus doesn't really need a cutscene either--but they're far better than the infodumps in some of the iTrials.

[Ura Hero]

I think pretty much everyone is in agreement that a lot of the Blueside task forces are too long.  Honestly if it takes more than an hour, I don't want to hassle with it.  Splitting task forces into two or more parts would be fine, just don't name the second part of the task force something stupid like; "Discuss what is going on in the rest of the city".  WTH does that even mean?  Do I care what is going on in the rest of the city?  I don't know.  Is it the second part of the task force or some series of side missions or does Posi just want to gab?  I really don't know and at this point I am afraid to find out.

 

I don't see any point in discussing the Shadow Shard.  It's an abomination and needs to be hit with a hammer until you can't see it anymore.  Quite possibly the worst game design in all of the City.

 

Red Side, I actually like most of the strike forces except the one with the exploding cave.  That's just a horrible mechanic for noobies.   Easily managed with fly and team teleport, but still touch one thing and everything explodes?  Come on.  That's just lazy design for laughs at the suckers.

 

The later task and strike forces I think have it about right.  LRSF, MSLTf, Incarnates, etc seem to be fairly balanced and not take tons of time.  By far my favorite is the ITF.  Only four missions and with a good team it's a meat grinder of fun.

 

I also agree with @Yomo Kimyata.  Base the merits off of more than just completion.  Add a time factor along with some factor of enemies defeated.  I really get tired of speed runs.  Sometimes I just want to lay waste to the bad guys.  Scorched Earth.  Nothing left standing.  Sure I get a few more recipe drops and a tad more influence, but it would be nice to actually be fully rewarded for the little bit of extra time that I took to "do the right thing" as it were.

[Eva Destruction]

3 hours ago, Moonscribe said:

Haha, I experienced this for the first time solo on Homecoming a while back, and wow, I knew it was supposed to be bad, but I was not prepared. I'm not sure if I could have been. I laughed out loud when Dr. Q said "If it were a snake, it would have bitten me!" because that does such a great job summing up all the "revelations" in this TF that you probably figured out multiple defeat-alls ago.

 

But I love the Shard despite its many issues, and I had plenty of thoughts about how Dr. Q could be better when I ran the thing, so here's my suggestion for what the Dr. Q task force could become:
 

  Hide contents

Mission 1: Combines the first five missions of the original TF. You are sent straight into a Rularuu cave, without any hunt missions preceding it, to rescue explorers from the Rularuu. But when you get there you find that some of them have been killed by high-tech weapons. Waiting at the end of the mission is a Crey boss whom you defeat and capture - maybe the cave is even a new map that transitions into a secret lab where Crey is capturing Rularuu for their experiments, which the explorers stumbled onto after following some mysterious researchers. This plus the fact that you can literally see Crey mobs all over the zone is more than enough info for Dr. Q to conclude that Crey is, in fact, in the Shard causing trouble.

 

Mission 2: Combines missions 6 through 13 of the original TF. NPC scouts have located a major Crey base for you (in Firebase Zulu, not Paragon City), and you go attack it and arrest the leader, NOT everyone in it. In that base you discover advanced portal tech Crey used to get into the zone, escaped Rularuu using it to build dimensional gizmos that could get them into Primal Earth if completed, and evidence that the tech comes from Nemesis. Also, there are Crey operatives planning to meet with somebody at an unexplored location about said tech.

 

Mission 3: Combines missions 14 through 16 of the original TF. You go to the unexplored location and find it is a Nemesis stronghold, which uses the cool map from the RWZ arcs. It's already under attack by the Rularuu, so you have to arrest all the Crey representatives and the Nemesis leader while fending off Rularuu ambushes. (Maybe said leader has a cool new experimental EB Nemesis has been working on there in secret - a weather control automaton, to follow up on the Meteorologist mini-arc?) You also learn about the times and locations of interdimensional transits planned by Crey and Nemesis.

 

Mission 4: Combines missions 17 through 19 of the original TF. There is one Crey base in the Shard and one in Paragon involved in the next transit, and you head to the one in the Shard while NPC heroes simultaneously shut down the one in Paragon - maybe you even get to communicate with them remotely, and hit glowies to deactivate security systems in the other base, cut off squads of bosses coming at you through the portal, etc. Unfortunately, Countess Crey's legal superpowers have already gotten her out of jail by this point, despite your heroic efforts with Janet Kellum earlier. You must defeat her and Hopkins as a team in order to shut down Crey's efforts here for good. But in the process, you learn there was a second portal base Crey was using where they were transporting Rularuu into Paragon, and they've lost contact with that base.

 

Mission 5: Combines missions 20 through 22 of the original TF. While Crey's second portal base was easily shut down by other heroes after Countess Crey's arrest last mission, the transported Rularuu have already escaped into Oranbega and you must stop their final attempt to build a portal to the Shadow Shard and start an invasion. This time you do have to go to Paragon City, but at least you don't have to go back, and the mission is in Peregrine now so it's relatively quick to get to it. You must defeat every Rularuu mob present, but the map is mostly Circle so it is not a defeat-all. But you do also have to defeat a powerful Circle AV on site, perhaps Baron Zoria himself (or rather, the powerful Oranbegan mage who has been possessing his body - I forget what happened to him in canon, so not sure if this works or not). Or maybe a cool new Circle AV who is harnessing the power of Rularuu directly, Rulu-Shin style, and thinks they can channel it into a new magical power source that will lead Oranbega to supremacy once again.

 

Moral of the story is as before: please don't let the Rularuu out of the Shard, it's bad. Also of course the Countess successfully argues in court she was there to shut down these illegal operations in the Shard, not oversee them, and gets out of jail before you know it.

 

Thank you for proving my point.  5 missions, and there it is, that's the plot.

 

With the final mission being in Oranbega, it opens up some possibilities for a more interesting map.  We just stroll on into Oranbega on a regular basis, you'd think after a while the CoT would set up some magical defenses or something, wouldn't they?  Have the map itself attack you.  And then the final room is where they're doing their evil magic ritual thing to try to take advantage of the situation, more magical traps, and you have to fight a group of EBs or AVs or whatever would pose a challenge to a team of that level, the point is there is a group of them to make it more "you just interrupted our big important evil magic ritual thing."

[tidge]

Since this is explicitly a "revamp" thread, I will limit myself to my thoughts on the the TFs (SFs are generally ok, IMO) that need rework: Synapse and Citadel. It is my belief that these two are most in need of rework because they occur at lower levels, and many "defeat all" missions spread all over the city can be extremely tedious for characters in the level range of the Task Forces.

 

I will sidestep the 'appropriateness' of the TF contacts. I agree that it seems very odd to have Synapse dealing with Clockwork.

 

Synapse: I feel like this should be split (roughly evenly) between missions in only two zones. It would seem that Steel Canyon and Skyway City would be the obvious choices, but I wouldn't automatically rule out either Boomtown or Kings Row. Boomtown doesn't have a trainer, but leveraging a Hazard Zone could be fun. It might be too much trouble for this level range. I'll come back to this. Kings Row has the ability to leverage the presence of Blue Steel.

 

The (current) first half should consider revising the "defeat all". I personally don't object to there being a "run between objectives" in a single zone, but it doesn't really scream "Task Force" as much as "Forced Tasks". I don't like that the entire team gets scattered by this activity. Just spitballing, but I like the way The revised Yin TF flows:

1. Rescue (in an instanced part of a city zone)
2. Objectives (behind a door)
3. Multiple specific defeats (behind a door)
4. Boss fight with "summoned groups"

I find the "summoning spawns" to be fun, as long as there is not a terribly long delay between spawns (ehem, Terra Volta trial).

 

The proposed second arc seems natural to keep the Skyway warehouses, the GM spawn and the AV. To spice this one up, I'd beef up the "Court" (requiring a defeat of multiple specific members of the court: Queen, Prince, Knave, Bishop, Knight) add a pseudo-pet enemy combat effect to one of the missions... similar to Battle Maiden's fields of death... but slightly less deadly.... some Psy damage, or Endurance drain. I'd like the back half of this arc to feel like it was designed by a kid really into chess (or D&D).

 

I'll hold off on my suggestions for Citadel... but I think that putting the first half of all of his missions in Boomtown would be slightly less annoying than traveling to the far corners of Independence Port and Talos Island.

[TygerDarkstorm]

4 hours ago, BurtHutt said:

I mentioned (as did others) the text and dialogue is lost on the team if they aren't the lead. In addition to changing some of these TFs, you could also change the way the mission info is disseminated. One of my previous suggestions was to have unique loading screens and on those screens have 1 or 2 sentences summarizing that portion of the TF/SF etc. The Devs could simply use relevant (to the TF) screenshots as the loadscreen (pics of the main characters might be a good option) and then a quick summary.

I agree with pretty much everything that's been said in this thread, however, I am quoting this because I don't know that I would like to have the story of the TF linked to the loading screens. Even with my 5 year old laptop and running 2 monitors, I load zones/maps too quickly to even read most of the tips that show up there as is, let alone trying to read and comprehend a couple of sentences about why I'm doing this portion of a TF.

 

Though it is pretty clear that there does need to be a better way to tell the story of a TF than the contact text that everyone can read. As many times as I've done Synapse, I had no idea the Clockwork King was a psychic brain in a jar thing! I'm usually on a ranged toon with the zoom out to max or near max, so I guess I've never had the opportunity to see him.

 

I am also in agreement with those who have said to make the AV's and such in these more noticable/a threat. Half the time it seems you just breeze right through them and might be lucky if I even noticed they were there. While I don't want to see this game be like WoW in terms of fight mechanics (because CoH's playstyle is one that happens to perfectly suit the way I game as I am an average gamer at best and have semi-crappy coordination), I also don't mind seeing them present a bit of a challenge and really feel like I'm fighting an AV or something.

[Myrmidon]

11 hours ago, Zepp said:

My proposed solution:

Change most defeat-all missions into assassination missions where the target is randomly placed on the map.

Where possible, shift missions to one zone.

Replace hunts with Zone ambushes - go to waypoint to find target, when in proximity, you are met with 1-3 waves of ambushes.

Now, that’s an idea that I can get behind.

[DougGraves]

What makes a good TF is hard to say.  But I can give detailed guidelines to try and prevent bad TFs.

 

1. A run with no issues should take ~30 minutes, a run that goes badly should take ~60 minutes.
2. A TF should take place in no more than 2 zones with one zone change (Posi 1 changes twice and it's a pain). 
3. A TF should have 3-5 missions. 
4. No more than 2 missions in a row should be against the same enemies.  You can meet this by having different enemy groups per mission, multiple enemy groups in a mission, or subdivide the enemy groups (like Striga that has missions just against robots and missions just against vampires).
5. No mission should have a defeat all
6. Every mission should have 2-5 objectives with at least 2 different objective types. 
7. The TF should have no more than 2 standard maps of the same type (council base, warehouse, etc.)
8. At least 1 mission in the TF should have "special" maps.  Not necessarily unique to the TF but ones not found in radio missions.  Use of maps from other (blue, gold, red) is encouraged.

 

 

[ivanhedgehog]

7 hours ago, Moonscribe said:

Haha, I experienced this for the first time solo on Homecoming a while back, and wow, I knew it was supposed to be bad, but I was not prepared. I'm not sure if I could have been. I laughed out loud when Dr. Q said "If it were a snake, it would have bitten me!" because that does such a great job summing up all the "revelations" in this TF that you probably figured out multiple defeat-alls ago.

 

But I love the Shard despite its many issues, and I had plenty of thoughts about how Dr. Q could be better when I ran the thing, so here's my suggestion for what the Dr. Q task force could become:
 

  Hide contents

Mission 1: Combines the first five missions of the original TF. You are sent straight into a Rularuu cave, without any hunt missions preceding it, to rescue explorers from the Rularuu. But when you get there you find that some of them have been killed by high-tech weapons. Waiting at the end of the mission is a Crey boss whom you defeat and capture - maybe the cave is even a new map that transitions into a secret lab where Crey is capturing Rularuu for their experiments, which the explorers stumbled onto after following some mysterious researchers. This plus the fact that you can literally see Crey mobs all over the zone is more than enough info for Dr. Q to conclude that Crey is, in fact, in the Shard causing trouble.

 

Mission 2: Combines missions 6 through 13 of the original TF. NPC scouts have located a major Crey base for you (in Firebase Zulu, not Paragon City), and you go attack it and arrest the leader, NOT everyone in it. In that base you discover advanced portal tech Crey used to get into the zone, escaped Rularuu using it to build dimensional gizmos that could get them into Primal Earth if completed, and evidence that the tech comes from Nemesis. Also, there are Crey operatives planning to meet with somebody at an unexplored location about said tech.

 

Mission 3: Combines missions 14 through 16 of the original TF. You go to the unexplored location and find it is a Nemesis stronghold, which uses the cool map from the RWZ arcs. It's already under attack by the Rularuu, so you have to arrest all the Crey representatives and the Nemesis leader while fending off Rularuu ambushes. (Maybe said leader has a cool new experimental EB Nemesis has been working on there in secret - a weather control automaton, to follow up on the Meteorologist mini-arc?) You also learn about the times and locations of interdimensional transits planned by Crey and Nemesis.

 

Mission 4: Combines missions 17 through 19 of the original TF. There is one Crey base in the Shard and one in Paragon involved in the next transit, and you head to the one in the Shard while NPC heroes simultaneously shut down the one in Paragon - maybe you even get to communicate with them remotely, and hit glowies to deactivate security systems in the other base, cut off squads of bosses coming at you through the portal, etc. Unfortunately, Countess Crey's legal superpowers have already gotten her out of jail by this point, despite your heroic efforts with Janet Kellum earlier. You must defeat her and Hopkins as a team in order to shut down Crey's efforts here for good. But in the process, you learn there was a second portal base Crey was using where they were transporting Rularuu into Paragon, and they've lost contact with that base.

 

Mission 5: Combines missions 20 through 22 of the original TF. While Crey's second portal base was easily shut down by other heroes after Countess Crey's arrest last mission, the transported Rularuu have already escaped into Oranbega and you must stop their final attempt to build a portal to the Shadow Shard and start an invasion. This time you do have to go to Paragon City, but at least you don't have to go back, and the mission is in Peregrine now so it's relatively quick to get to it. You must defeat every Rularuu mob present, but the map is mostly Circle so it is not a defeat-all. But you do also have to defeat a powerful Circle AV on site, perhaps Baron Zoria himself (or rather, the powerful Oranbegan mage who has been possessing his body - I forget what happened to him in canon, so not sure if this works or not). Or maybe a cool new Circle AV who is harnessing the power of Rularuu directly, Rulu-Shin style, and thinks they can channel it into a new magical power source that will lead Oranbega to supremacy once again.

 

Moral of the story is as before: please don't let the Rularuu out of the Shard, it's bad. Also of course the Countess successfully argues in court she was there to shut down these illegal operations in the Shard, not oversee them, and gets out of jail before you know it.

 

I solod Dr Q. with therapy and a lot of help I can once again be a productive member of society.

[BurtHutt]

9 hours ago, TygerDarkstorm said:

I agree with pretty much everything that's been said in this thread, however, I am quoting this because I don't know that I would like to have the story of the TF linked to the loading screens. Even with my 5 year old laptop and running 2 monitors, I load zones/maps too quickly to even read most of the tips that show up there as is, let alone trying to read and comprehend a couple of sentences about why I'm doing this portion of a TF.

 

Though it is pretty clear that there does need to be a better way to tell the story of a TF than the contact text that everyone can read. As many times as I've done Synapse, I had no idea the Clockwork King was a psychic brain in a jar thing! I'm usually on a ranged toon with the zoom out to max or near max, so I guess I've never had the opportunity to see him.

 

I am also in agreement with those who have said to make the AV's and such in these more noticable/a threat. Half the time it seems you just breeze right through them and might be lucky if I even noticed they were there. While I don't want to see this game be like WoW in terms of fight mechanics (because CoH's playstyle is one that happens to perfectly suit the way I game as I am an average gamer at best and have semi-crappy coordination), I also don't mind seeing them present a bit of a challenge and really feel like I'm fighting an AV or something.

Fair point on loadscreen times. My comp is a few years old and I can catch a sentence or two. I guess this will vary. I also feel you don't need a fully comprehensive explanation on each loadscreen - maybe 1 sentence regarding the purpose of that part of the TF. The dialogue boxes during the TF would also help so maybe a combination. The key is to keep it brief. Let's face it, you don't really need to read the material as most of the game is just charge, smash, repeat...

 

If Devs want to go with the loadscreen option, they also have the ability to allow the player to close it out/click enter (like in WHO WILL DIE series).

Edited January 6, 2021 by BurtHutt

[DreadShinobi]

Don't touch my Numina TF 😠