"Toxic" Community?.. My thoughts, feel free to add your own!

[Myrmidon]

On 10/5/2020 at 1:35 PM, jubakumbi said:

Almost all of these old quotations have been turned on their heads from the original, all to make those that would go against the grain seem to be the bad apples...

So true. Take “Heretic”, for example. The original meaning is “able to choose”, however, it’s been ingrained in the public psyche to possess negative connotations by one of the largest “herds” on the planet.

Edited October 7, 2020 by Myrmidon

[Hyperstrike]

15 hours ago, jubakumbi said:

Because Hope and Stubborn.

Many Hope they can turn a frown upside down or whatever.

Many more gamers just want to win the argument.

That's a whole lot of people that are just now possibly learning that there are, in fact, many people in the world that deserve nothing more than to be ignored, yet they Hope they can change that person, thinking they are helping.

 

The Human Condition.

Our brains re-enforce our choices with cognative dissonance to keep us sane.

We all think we 'know what is going on' and 'just how to fix it', when we don't know jack and are just letting our emotions override logic.

 

IMO, the one thing that separates the the two 'teams' in life for me, the ones I am going to root for vs. the ones I am going to ignore, are simply those that can admit they were wrong, or not.

IMO, if one cannot admit one is wrong and own it, then I don't want anything to do with that person, they cannot be trusted, because they will lie, cheat, steal, and murder to cover-up being wrong, they will follow the herd like lemmings off of a cliff, just to spite everyone, to avoid admitting they were wrong.

IME, the rest of it just follows along on top of that simple, yet profound realization.

In short, life's short.
If you spend it trying to philosophically beat jerks into submission, it's very short indeed.

Just have fun and don't give toxic people any of your time.
Life becomes several orders of magnitude more enjoyable this way.

[CaptainLupis]

6 hours ago, Myrmidon said:

So true. Take “Heretic”, for example. The original meaning is “able to choose”, however, it’s been ingrained in the public psyche to possess negative connotations by one of the largest “herds” on the planet.

In its original Greek roots, yes, but I'm not sure heretic has ever been used to mean that by the time it was in English usage. I sometimes wish I had studied etymology at university, I have an interest in it, but I think it would be fascinating to study in depth.

[DSorrow]

20 hours ago, Sovera said:

WHY ARE PEOPLE ARGUING BACK!?

Heh, I guess I'm an optimist in this regard and usually I hope that people would be happy to update their world view when presented with new information. However, if they're petty or hostile and just looking to argue, I might entertain myself for a short while before putting them on ignore. Thankfully I've only had to resort to ignore with just a handful of people on HC.

[Grouchybeast]

1 hour ago, CaptainLupis said:

In its original Greek roots, yes, but I'm not sure heretic has ever been used to mean that by the time it was in English usage. I sometimes wish I had studied etymology at university, I have an interest in it, but I think it would be fascinating to study in depth.

I was going to say -- if we have to revert to the 'original' meaning of the roots of modern words as being the only true version, English is going to look very different.

 

We can start with not using 'English' to mean this newfangled modern nonsense.  English refers to and ONLY to the language spoken by Germanic settlers in the British Isles.  Habbaþ gōdne dæg!

[jubakumbi]

4 hours ago, Grouchybeast said:

I was going to say -- if we have to revert to the 'original' meaning of the roots of modern words as being the only true version, English is going to look very different.

 

We can start with not using 'English' to mean this newfangled modern nonsense.  English refers to and ONLY to the language spoken by Germanic settlers in the British Isles.  Habbaþ gōdne dæg!

With this is mind, I always like to hear what poeple think is the definition of 'toxic' in communites like these, as I see the word used like Kleenex to mean 'anything with which I do not see eye to eye' is 'toxic'.

 

I find 'willful ignorance' to be 'toxic', for example, whereas someone that is really passionate/loud/endless about a POV I just see as a dedicated fan.

 

IME, 'toxic' has in fact lost all meaning in many of these conversations.

[Lines]

26 minutes ago, jubakumbi said:

With this is mind, I always like to hear what poeple think is the definition of 'toxic' in communites like these, as I see the word used like Kleenex to mean 'anything with which I do not see eye to eye' is 'toxic'.

 

I find 'willful ignorance' to be 'toxic', for example, whereas someone that is really passionate/loud/endless about a POV I just see as a dedicated fan.

 

IME, 'toxic' has in fact lost all meaning in many of these conversations.

This is an interesting question.

 

I take it to mean something like "actively exclusive", particularly to the point of rudeness to maintain an inner circle. The whole gatekeeping vibe. "Toxic masculinity" is an example, where someone in that circle might say: "You're not a real man unless you can benchpress a tractor with your beard." (or whatever it is real men do). It's a needless and illusionary competition for identity.

 

I don't think differences of opinions necessarily apply, especially when discussed neutrally and are accepted as different viewpoints rather than hard truths. In fact, I think that's a very healthy thing to have. When it turns to "well you're clearly not a [place identity here] because you don't agree/know about things/behave in such a way/otherwise conform," and that becomes the cultural stance in the community, that's getting toxic.

Edited October 7, 2020 by Lines

[jubakumbi]

1 hour ago, Lines said:

This is an interesting question.

 

I take it to mean something like "actively exclusive", particularly to the point of rudeness to maintain an inner circle. The whole gatekeeping vibe. "Toxic masculinity" is an example, where someone in that circle might say: "You're not a real man unless you can benchpress a tractor with your beard." (or whatever it is real men do). It's a needless and illusionary competition for identity.

 

I don't think differences of opinions necessarily apply, especially when discussed neutrally and are accepted as different viewpoints rather than hard truths. In fact, I think that's a very healthy thing to have. When it turns to "well you're clearly not a [place identity here] because you don't agree/know about things/behave in such a way/otherwise conform," and that becomes the cultural stance in the community, that's getting toxic.

I consider 'toxic' as well any effort to ruin the Fun of others though any form of gatekeeping.

 

Another tid-bit here is that I think a whole lot of people within gaming communities confuse 'community/culture' with 'peer pressure', but to be open and fair, I view pretty much all 'cultural norms' as 'peer-pressure at scale'.

 

Just because "that's the way we do it here" is never, ever, never ever, IMO, a valid, logical, sane reason to do anything on it's own, beyond trying to blend into the 'herd' which I don't have a desire to do.

By not following the herd, I have times been labelled 'toxic' and in those cases I wear it as a badge of honor.

[Elmyder]

ZeeHero, Jimmy has asked us not to call out people publicly. As I see it, calling out a specific channel whose leadership is already publicly cited in this thread is tantamount to calling out those individuals as being toxic. I would rather not have any more drama aired than is necessary, but in light of the discussion you prompted, I'll just say a few things: 1. Everlasting TFs is a public channel, not a private one. Anyone is free and encouraged to join. The purpose is to foster an active community for players of all levels around scheduled endgame content. 2. In spite of the channel's public status, we obviously have a vested interest in keeping it free from toxicity so that we can be most welcoming to new players. Just like any decent public forum you join. We very rarely remove or silence people, and it is far from the first resort for behavior we consider unacceptable. If anyone is removed or silenced, there is a good documented reason for it, and most likely, a relatively long history.

[Solarverse]

5 hours ago, jubakumbi said:

I consider 'toxic' as well any effort to ruin the Fun of others though any form of gatekeeping.

 

Another tid-bit here is that I think a whole lot of people within gaming communities confuse 'community/culture' with 'peer pressure', but to be open and fair, I view pretty much all 'cultural norms' as 'peer-pressure at scale'.

 

Just because "that's the way we do it here" is never, ever, never ever, IMO, a valid, logical, sane reason to do anything on it's own, beyond trying to blend into the 'herd' which I don't have a desire to do.

By not following the herd, I have times been labelled 'toxic' and in those cases I wear it as a badge of honor.

You and Twixt would have gotten along great. You should read his work sometime. His thesis mimics exactly what you say here.

[Widower]

Don't get into the politics, folks.

 

(And I suppose it bears mentioning, since someone will ask: masks and vaccines are not inherently political. Something Else™ very much is.)

Edited October 7, 2020 by GM Widower

[Nerio72]

It will be great when this thread gets shut down because of toxic behavior which is where it looks like this is now headed.

 

Edited October 7, 2020 by Nerio72

[Indystruck]

When everyone you meet in the community is an asshole, it's time to sit down and have some self-reflection. Perhaps the problem... is within?

[_NOPE_]

3 minutes ago, Indystruck said:

When everyone you meet in the community is an asshole, it's time to sit down and have some self-reflection. Perhaps the problem... is within?

 

[Solarverse]

On 10/7/2020 at 6:31 PM, Solarverse said:

You and Twixt would have gotten along great. You should read his work sometime. His thesis mimics exactly what you say here.

Just to be clear, for anyone unfamiliar with Twixt, he conducted a social experiment using CoH as his subjects for his experiment and then wrote a thesis on the subject of how players form their own rules, and then expect others to abide by those rules, even if they are not any real rules or restrictions of the game. Just so everyone knows, this was not a call out against the player known as Twixt, it was simply relevant. As far as I know, Twixt is not currently playing this server and it is questionable as to whether or not he is even still alive, as he was in his 60's I believe when he played during live and if memory serves, he quit playing the game long before it shut down.

If you wish to read up on his work, all you need to do is cross reference CoH with Twixt and the information is an easy find. Even if you do not agree with his views and how he conducted his experiments (the way he went about it stirred quite the controversy) the read is quite interesting nonetheless.

I just wanted to clear that up in case anyone unfamiliar with Twixt felt that I was calling out players. That was not the intent.

[Ironblade]

3 hours ago, Solarverse said:

Just to be clear, for anyone unfamiliar with Twixt, he conducted a social experiment using CoH as his subjects for his experiment and then wrote a thesis on the subject of how players form their own rules, and then expect others to abide by those rules, even if they are not any real rules or restrictions of the game. Just so everyone knows, this was not a call out against the player known as Twixt,

On the other hand:

1.  Involving people in research without their consent is generally considered unethical and requires review by the university's ethics board which may or may not have occurred.

2.  What he referred to as "violating social norms", most people would call "being an asshole".

It's all about perspective.  Was he a dedicated researcher just doing his work or was he skirting the rules of academia and engaging in online harassment?

[Solarverse]

5 minutes ago, Ironblade said:

On the other hand:

1.  Involving people in research without their consent is generally considered unethical and requires review by the university's ethics board which may or may not have occurred.

2.  What he referred to as "violating social norms", most people would call "being an asshole".

It's all about perspective.  Was he a dedicated researcher just doing his work or was he skirting the rules of academia and engaging in online harassment?

Yeah, I have my opinion of him as well, however, I chose to keep that opinion to myself since I was trying to keep the conversation relevant. One thing for sure, nobody has to agree with him, but it does remain a good read...even if you don't agree with it.

[Sovera]

I had to go and read about this Twixt. I can't really take it as a 'social experiment'. Guy knew what he was doing and was having his fun.

 

But, we can't blame him. It's true that TP enemy was valid since it was in the game. But talking loudly, burping sonorously and spitting on the floor while at a restaurant can be argued as 'I'm not doing anything against the law' (it might actually be, it's just a random example so don't get sticky to it) and still not be acceptable behavior or behavior we want around us.

 

It is why rules (laws) need to be made. For years and years and years smoking at a restaurant was a filthy habit spoiling the meal of non smokers but since it was not 'against the law' it was acceptable and relied on the good will of smokers not to do so to not bother others with their cancer sticks. Once we (finally) got a law about it it stopped being about good will and was enforced.

 

 

If the devs had a better handle on the game they would see the tactic was not welcomed and made a 'law' (changing how TP foe or the drones worked, or implementing some sort of simply anti-TP foe) to stop it. They didn't. So they were fine with it.

 

But it really boils down why I loathe PvP. For everyone who sings the fun of PvP and how it is a clash of skill and wit there are five who will come in a group to kill a straggler, or solely play stealth classes, or do -everything- possible to win like the very common 'wait until someone is at 50% while fighting an NPC and then stealth attack and claim 'victory''.

 

 

Still, it was amusing to see this sexagenarian do a long worded dissertation that boiled down to 'but it was just a joke (social experiment) brah!'

[Solarverse]

1 hour ago, Sovera said:

I had to go and read about this Twixt. I can't really take it as a 'social experiment'. Guy knew what he was doing and was having his fun.

 

But, we can't blame him. It's true that TP enemy was valid since it was in the game. But talking loudly, burping sonorously and spitting on the floor while at a restaurant can be argued as 'I'm not doing anything against the law' (it might actually be, it's just a random example so don't get sticky to it) and still not be acceptable behavior or behavior we want around us.

 

It is why rules (laws) need to be made. For years and years and years smoking at a restaurant was a filthy habit spoiling the meal of non smokers but since it was not 'against the law' it was acceptable and relied on the good will of smokers not to do so to not bother others with their cancer sticks. Once we (finally) got a law about it it stopped being about good will and was enforced.

 

 

If the devs had a better handle on the game they would see the tactic was not welcomed and made a 'law' (changing how TP foe or the drones worked, or implementing some sort of simply anti-TP foe) to stop it. They didn't. So they were fine with it.

 

But it really boils down why I loathe PvP. For everyone who sings the fun of PvP and how it is a clash of skill and wit there are five who will come in a group to kill a straggler, or solely play stealth classes, or do -everything- possible to win like the very common 'wait until someone is at 50% while fighting an NPC and then stealth attack and claim 'victory''.

 

 

Still, it was amusing to see this sexagenarian do a long worded dissertation that boiled down to 'but it was just a joke (social experiment) brah!'

I don't think he won too many hearts with it, we'll leave it at that.  😄

[blue4333]

Everything is “toxic” nowadays. 
 

Ask why an Empathy Defender has the whole Medicine pool and no Clear Mind/Fortitude? Toxic. 
 

Ask someone to watch their KB? Toxic. 

 

The list goes on. 

[Llewellyn Blackwell]

As far as forum behavior goes, my pov on toxic and negative behavior vs just being a cold shoulder who wields words like a bam bam club seem quite at odds with no few. For example I think the frequent off topic derailing and use of obnoxious visuals like gifs are far more toxic then someone telling another they seem unable to have other then terrible ideas based on emotion and personal bias. Or asking folks to not include or use RL aspects of themselves in conversations as a way to smokescreen or then point to and say hey your just attacking me personally( well dont post personal things if you dont want them subjected to discussion) is to my mind just asking someone to keep things business like, but seem to be treated as being hateful. Like hey the fact is unless its in the off topic section I dont want to hear about peoples personal drama, health issues, and whatever else may be going on unless its actually somehow relevant, even if its just by way of saying "Hey sorry if I have been acting like a cuck, but this *insert personal drama* has been going on and had me on edge emotionally."

 

In game I actually do see a fair bit of clique behavior, and the control some too large SGs/coalitions can exert over game spaces. A few recent examples spring to mind.

 

Maybe a week ago or a bit more I joined an shard TF, Faathims, Was on my one man army PB who solo's +4 x8 against most factions reliably. He is also specced to offer modest healing and support, even running the barrier that raises 2 at a time. The leader of the team and his sg mate from one of the more well known SGs with members that frequently lead Raids and host CCs were being pretty laid back, but there was one problem player who kept rushing off and getting killed, causing the team to pull in 2 directions, and in general rather then actually speed up our clear speed was causing it to really slow down. Anyways when we near the last mish the sg mate of the leader DCs and misses the team transport, so the rest of us are waiting outside the mish entrance. Then the stalker go4es in, a few others follow as has been happening time and time again. I step in because my spidey sense is tingling, and sure enough kill crazy stalker has lead all but myself, the star, and his sg mate into a battle, gotten 2 of them incapped, and the AVs health is dropping steadily, steadily enough I yell in team chat for them to slow the fuck downa dn wait for our late arrival to get in mish so they dont miss the fun. And yell to the SG leader for he and his sg mate to get inside asap.  They do, but only barely, not really getting to see the AV at all, and the stalker got quite rude and dismissive of the complaints about them not waiting for the team.

 

Now I know this SG is big enough, that the black listing this stalker got is likely more substantial to limiting their future teaming options then you might think, and I am friends with more then a few members of this SG/coalition that I dont think ill of it in general, but then lets take an alternate example that involves the same SG

 

a couple months back I log on one early morn still sipping at me first cuppa, and see an ITF has just started adverting and figure hm sure sounds like a good morning wake up run. I end up being like number 7 of 8, and the only one so far not in the SG, I think ok kind of odd for a 6 man sg team to pug out the last 2 spots, as ime that always leads to a feeling of our team +2 to be kind of ignored while the rest do all their talking in sg/coalition.

 

Anyways the 8th spot fills, a nice vidow who is abit of a odd duck socially but always a real try to help those in need of it type, gives away full purple sets via random in game email to those asking for build advice as random acts of kindness etc. Anyway one of the sg team mates says something to the widow like I hope you are not planning on griefing us with teleport again, and the widow seems genuinely confused. To avoid the back and forth further, the gist seemed to be on a LGTF said sg member and widow had both been on, several members of the team kept getting terribly lost, and the widow had incandescence slotted, so used it to gather up the stragglers as often as any one asked for a tp to the team. Apparently the SG member called that griefing, because they personally refuse to use the prompt team teleport feature, saying it is only an anti griefing tool, and only griefers tell players to use that option.

 

This devolved into the entire 6 man sg faction really tearing into the widow player, who as I said is also someone I am on friendly terms with. Seeing how this member of said SG was using the power of the group to outright attack and then get my friend black listed by the SG/coalition when imo the widow was not the one being a problem player in the least based on everything I was hearing, lead me to leave the TF run after the 2nd mish because I only came to have that full picture because they kept trash talking my friend during those first two mishes of the ITF and I had enough. I ended up putting every member of the SG in that team on ignore, and it has since caused me some in game drama because as I said I am pretty good friends with some members of this SG, and consider some others to be among the worst kind of mentality to be found in the community.

 

IMO this is why SGs should actually have had very small roster limits and Coalitions should not include a chat channel. I think letting people grow large cliques in games is very problematic in MMO in general, with many treating the unguilded as true 2nd class citizens denied access to certain sources of in game power. DDO is perhaps the worst offender, in which guilds with massive air ships and top teir guild buffs have a true OP advantage compared to those not in guilds. And ofcourse the big guilds there are very abusive to all not guilded, and treat any suggestion at making guild specific perks more accessible to all via some non guild based mechanic as a direct attack on their divine right to have the most power because they are guilds, and those unguilded clearly are just anti social misfits jealous of what the guilded have. I mean really its a lot like being the one guy in a town that doesnt go to the church everyone else in town goes to. You are always told to either join, or simply accept you will always be treated like an outsider.

[Solarverse]

2 hours ago, blue4333 said:

Everything is “toxic” nowadays. 
 

Ask why an Empathy Defender has the whole Medicine pool and no Clear Mind/Fortitude? Toxic. 
 

Ask someone to watch their KB? Toxic. 

 

The list goes on. 

That whole post was just toxic.

[Frostbiter]

1 minute ago, Solarverse said:

That whole post was just toxic.

Right? Obviously I watch as a I knock mobs all over the place. It's hilarious.

[jubakumbi]

54 minutes ago, Llewellyn Blackwell said:

As far as forum behavior goes, my pov on toxic and negative behavior vs just being a cold shoulder who wields words like a bam bam club seem quite at odds with no few. For example I think the frequent off topic derailing and use of obnoxious visuals like gifs are far more toxic then someone telling another they seem unable to have other then terrible ideas based on emotion and personal bias. Or asking folks to not include or use RL aspects of themselves in conversations as a way to smokescreen or then point to and say hey your just attacking me personally( well dont post personal things if you dont want them subjected to discussion) is to my mind just asking someone to keep things business like, but seem to be treated as being hateful. Like hey the fact is unless its in the off topic section I dont want to hear about peoples personal drama, health issues, and whatever else may be going on unless its actually somehow relevant, even if its just by way of saying "Hey sorry if I have been acting like a cuck, but this *insert personal drama* has been going on and had me on edge emotionally."

 

... drama...

With this outlook, I have to wonder why you even open a web browser, TBH.

 

As for the drama about the toxic players, I found that whole thing to be one hilarious story about a bunch of children on a playground thinking they have real power over other humans because of a video game.

The gatekeepers you mention are laughable, I would love, Love, LOVE to talk to some of them to ask why they think thier e-peens are so large that they can gatekeep the game for others, sounds like seriously mentally deranged Dark Tetrad stuff on a few of them.

 

Humans are wired to belong to tribes. Some of us because of our (broken) wiring, do not subscribe to that newsletter.

Some humans bow to this childish peer-presure, others don't, some of us like to call it out and deride it.

 

What I see in COH is a bunch of humans that might be old enough to be (and possibly are) parents and grandparents, still acting like elemetary school children, because they have not progressed emotionally past the point of the playground, with cliches and secret groups and deranged outlooks.

 

It amazes me why an adult would allow these adult-children any power over ones own emotional state and outlook.

Screw 'em, let them rot in thier own swamp, go have fun.

 

I am the guy who was raised in the South as an Unbeliever, I know the whole story, I was literally thrown out of Religious Sunday School for asking "Why?".

I wear it as a badge of honor, I am proud to be an 'outsider' if that means living my life with logic and reason and not the peer-presure-FUD so many humans choose to wallow in and call it society.

Edited October 13, 2020 by jubakumbi
speeling

[PainX]

farming clicks i think for sure i see some political banter met one very toxic stone tanker where at first i was like "am i the butthole?" but turned out the whole team left and later he was just drunk messed up and apologised actualy ended pretty well other then that no just seen banter these 4-5 months nothing really toxic

Edited October 13, 2020 by PainX