Weekly Discussion 71: Regeneration

[GM Miss]

 

Weekly discussion 71 Week 10/04/20-10/10/20:

YOU VOTED: Let's talk REGENERATION!

 

❓Things to think about:

>Check out powers here: https://hcwiki.cityofheroes.dev/wiki/Regeneration

>How does the set compare to other armor sets? Other high regen sets?

>Is it over powered or underpowered?

>What would you change and what do you love?  

[Ironblade]

Overall, I like it a lot.  Ironblade is broadsword/regen and he was the first character I made when I started playing just before the 1st anniversary.  He has remained my favorite and most-played character.

 

My only gripe would be that Resilience has such low numbers that it's basically useless.  So much so that I have never even considered taking the power - on Ironblade.  I DID take it on another scrapper to see if it was as useless as I thought and I decided it was.

[Bill Z Bubba]

I enjoy my rad/regen sentinel but it's a concept character. Melee regen is atrocious. Need regen for tanks after the set has been overhauled. (Also energy aura for tanks.) MoG is total garbage and should be the first item looked at for a complete replacement.

[Vanden]

Revive needs to come earlier in the set.

[Troo]

I like Regeneration.

Some minor adjustments wouldn't hurt, even if it can still do some amazing things. It is definitely an active power set that a player has to pay attention to.

 

Edited October 7, 2020 by Troo

[Bill Z Bubba]

17 minutes ago, Vanden said:

Revive needs to come earlier in the set.

And give it a secondary effect that you can use when not licking pavement.

[ShardWarrior]

18 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

I enjoy my rad/regen sentinel but it's a concept character. Melee regen is atrocious. Need regen for tanks after the set has been overhauled. (Also energy aura for tanks.) MoG is total garbage and should be the first item looked at for a complete replacement.

I agree with Bill here.  I can only speak to the melee version as I have not tried the Sentinel version.  The melee version needs a complete overhaul in my opinion.  The nerf pendulum swung much too far on this set over the years.  Far too reliant on clicks for survival and in my own personal experience far, far outclassed by other sets at the end game level.  Turning IH back into a toggle would be a good start.

[Bopper]

I'll add more to this later with numbers, but in general Regeneration should have high levels of resistance to regen and heal debuffs. It should also have scaling regeneration based on health levels (similar to Super Reflexes with scaling resists).

 

Updated:

Here is a breakdown of what I'd like to see with Regeneration using a Brute as an example.

 

First a breakdown of what I've done: 

• All 3 Auto powers have Res(Regeneration) included. For a brute this is 25.95% each for a final build total of 77.85% Res(Regeneration)
• All 3 Auto powers have unenhanceable scaling Regeneration added as an effect. It begins to kick in when your health dips below 75%. For every 1% of HP lost after 75%, you gain 2% Regeneration (for each Auto power, so 6% total). This allows you a maximum of 150% Regeneration at 0% HP, so combining all 3 Auto powers, this is a maximum of 450% Regeneration at 0% HP, 300% Regeneration at 25% HP, 150% Regeneration at 50% HP, and 0% Regeneration at 75%+ HP.
• I overhauled Quick Recovery and made it Perseverance. It's sort of a hybrid of Gamma Boost (scaling Regen/Recovery based on Health) and Inexhaustible (small max HP increase and various debuff resists).
• I overhauled Revive. I made it Return to Glory, which is basically a 2nd Moment of Glory that you can use (longer cooldown though), but you can also use it as a Revive if you fall in battle.

 

I made numerous other changes, but I can explain them all below.

 

Changes: Added the unenhanceable scaling Regeneration and changed the Activate period from 10s to 1s, that way the scaling Regeneration will update more frequently.

 

 

Changes: Removed the 15% Res(Toxic) and replaced it with a 9.375% Res(All). This resistance is not enhanceable, which allows us to remove the "Not affected by outside buffs/debuffs" flag. This comes into play later with Instant Healing.

 

 

Changes: This is an overhaul of quick recovery. The 30% Recovery bonus will now scale with current HP% (I think this should be buffed up, but good enough for now). We add a +Max HP effect that is worth 10% base HP, with half of this effect being enhanceable. Also added the scaling regeneration (0-150%, based on current HP%). Added a 25.95% Resistance to Regeneration and Slows and a 51.9% Resistance to Endurance Drain. Also changed the activation period to 1s to accomodate the scaling Regeneration/Recovery.

 

 

Changes: This used to be Dull Pain. I tweaked it to have a smaller cooldown (240s instead of 360s), but also it is a smaller buff to +Max HP (30% instead of 40%) and Heal (449.78 instead of 599.7). The reasons for this change, I wanted to make it easier to reach perma buff, now needing only +100% Recharge instead of +200% Recharge, and I wanted the self heal to be available more often. The net of the +Max HP does not change, thanks to Perseverance we will still get a +40% MaxHP, with half of that enhanceable.

 

 

Changes:  Minor change here. There was a 50% Regeneration effect that was unenhanceable, I bumped it up to 100% Regeneration effect unenhanceable. This now gives the toggle 200% Regeneration, half unenhanceable.

 

 

Changes: Added the unenhanceable scaling regeneration and added a 25.95% Resistance to Regeneration and Recharge debuffs. Also changed the Activate period from 10s to 1s to accomodate the scaling regeneration.

 

 

Changes: I reduced the cooldown from 650s to 600s. Also added a Strength to Regeneration/Heal buff for 90s. This will give a 29.8% strength boost to the regeneration of Fast Healing, Integration and Health, and will give a 29.8% strength boost to the heals of Numb Pain and Reconstruction (which is why I made the Resistance unenhanceable).

 

 

Changes: Made this power the T8, increased the effect duration from 15s to 20s, and increased the cooldown from 240s to 300s. Also, I removed the Stun protection (since we already get that in 2 other powers) and replaced it with Fear protection. Also reduced the cast time from 2.57s to 1.5s.

 

 

Changes: This is an overhaul of Revive. You can still use this like a revive, but instead of getting 15s of Untouchable, you get 20s of Moment of Glory. You also can use this power while alive as a 2nd Moment of Glory. The cooldown was increased from 300s to 360s to accomodate the added capability (I probably should make it 420s or 480s, but I'll be generous to start).

Edited October 6, 2020 by Bopper

[Marshal_General]

I made a WP scrapper in mids and a regen brute and they almost have the same amount of regen.

[Eldyem]

1 hour ago, Ironblade said:

Overall, I like it a lot.  Ironblade is broadsword/regen and he was the first character I made when I started playing just before the 1st anniversary.  He has remained my favorite and most-played character.

 

My only gripe would be that Resilience has such low numbers that it's basically useless.  So much so that I have never even considered taking the power - on Ironblade.  I DID take it on another scrapper to see if it was as useless as I thought and I decided it was.

Slotting one or two of the global defense IOs in it is more powerful than anything the power itself does (Grounded in Elec is in a similar spot).

 

19 minutes ago, ShardWarrior said:

I agree with Bill here.  I can only speak to the melee version as I have not tried the Sentinel version.  The melee version needs a complete overhaul in my opinion.  The nerf pendulum swung much too far on this set over the years.  Far too reliant on clicks for survival and in my own personal experience far, far outclassed by other sets at the end game level.  Turning IH back into a toggle would be a good start.

Absolutely this. Regen's regen is oftentimes worse than Willpower's; that's absolutely absurd when you think about it. Regen needs some sort of layered defense as an active

[Yomo Kimyata]

I like regeneration too.  One of my 50s is a staff/regen brute and although he took some getting used to, he's quite powerful at the 50 and 50+ content.

 

If you don't like a click-happy set, or one that really needs IOs to shine, this is not your set.

 

I don't pay any attention at all to the inherent regeneration rate -- my play is all about setting up strong defense and resistance levels and then spot healing whenever needed.  There are a lot of oh shit buttons, which I kind of enjoy.

 

I could see adding a little something to Resilience.  I use MoG as another oh shit button and occasional break free.  I really don't see the hate unless you are already maxxed out on S/L/F/C/E/NE damage resist, and on a high recharge build it's up pretty often.

 

 

[drbuzzard]

Sentinel regeneration is pretty damned good. It's the only version of regeneration I've played on Homecoming, and it will remain that way unless regeneration gets drastic revision. As said by others, the set on melee ATs is a strange mix of self heals, a bit of constant regeneration, burst regeneration, and a very short 'oh shit' power. It's clearly more 'clicky' than anything I would ever be interested in. I guess some people enjoy it, but I can't imagine it's a popular choice overall.

[kiramon]

Regen should have:

1. Resists. Give it a lot.

2. Actual regeneration - it should be the highest set in the game for regeneration.

3. Scaling regeneration so the lower you to the higher you heal.

4. Easy way to cap +HP

5. Maybe keep the heals and add heal/ticks to simulate regeneration- so a burst heal followed by meaningful ticks after.

[The Pyn]

28 minutes ago, Eldyem said:

Slotting one or two of the global defense IOs in it is more powerful than anything the power itself does (Grounded in Elec is in a similar spot).

 

Absolutely this. Regen's regen is oftentimes worse than Willpower's; that's absolutely absurd when you think about it. Regen needs some sort of layered defense as an active

qft.  willpower is the new regen.

[GM Aurarius]

I have always enjoyed my Regeneration characters, certain times more than others obviously, but seeing this thread makes me want to start a new one.
 

[srmalloy]

I still think that "Instant Healing" just being a boost to your regeneration rate doesn't really fit the power name, and that IH should be a toggle that reacts to incoming damage -- when you take damage, if IH is active, it triggers a heal with a time delay (pseudo-pet, whatever -- Spectral Wounds does this already) that "instantly" heals some of the damage you took, with the amount of the heal being fully or partially enhanceable.

[drdread]

16 minutes ago, The Pyn said:

46 minutes ago, Eldyem said:

Absolutely this. Regen's regen is oftentimes worse than Willpower's; that's absolutely absurd when you think about it. Regen needs some sort of layered defense as an active

willpower is the new regen.

 

IMO, Willpower has the advantage with Rise to the Challenge. If fast healing had a scaling +regen, it would help the set a lot.

[SeraphimKensai]

As someone that used to tank Hami with a regen scrapper and remember the days of IH toggles and perma Mog I've seen a lot of changes impact regen.

 

That said, I'm in favor of a few ideas to adjust regen, as I feel that no powerset (willpower) should out regen the regen powerset such as:

 

1. Fast Healing, give it a scaling regen magnitude based on damage taken (from 20% and lower, the amount of regen from Fast Healing should be like a capped Rise To The Challenge).

2. Reconstruction, add stacking resistance to regeneration rate debuffing, should allow Regen Rate Debuff Resistance to stack 2-3 times.

3. Integration, take off the taunt aura on our Mez protection. Ever try to stealth by something on a Regen Brute only to agro everything or if you shut off integration, you get seen and mezzed and then have to fight after breaking out of.the hold?

4. Instant Healing, I still want this to be a toggle again. The original regen value though was argugably too high here, like I said, I used to tank Hami solo. Perhaps looking at this power to add an absorb shield on regen similar to the Sentinel version. TheTaunt aura can go here for Brutes and eventually Tanks.

5. Revive, turn it to an auto power, give it a weaker version of Fast Healing/QR's regen/recovery and give it a slightly delayed auto Rez. You can kill me sure, but you can't keep me down.

6. Moment of Glory, +Defense and a large absorb shield sound great here.

7. Resilience, add some Regen/Recovery Debuff Resistance.

8. Dull Pain, is pretty good as is, maybe if any changes are due, changing the magnitude so slotting it's easier to cap HP.

 

I know it's a pipe dream, but a fun pipe dream.

 

[Vanden]

5 minutes ago, drdread said:

IMO, Willpower has the advantage with Rise to the Challenge. If fast healing had a scaling +regen, it would help the set a lot.

I dunno why people think RttC is so great. I have two level 50 Willpower characters and neither has found the buffs from RttC enough to offset the extra damage that gathering mobs on you brings, unlike Invincibility.

Edited October 6, 2020 by Vanden

[Yomo Kimyata]

19 minutes ago, GM Aurarius said:

I have always enjoyed my Regeneration characters, certain times more than others obviously, but seeing this thread makes me want to start a new one.
 

I was going to make some Energy Melee/Regen alts since they are so hated, but it’s too popular a combo for my tastes!

[macskull]

1 hour ago, Bopper said:

I'll add more to this later with numbers, but in general Regeneration should have high levels of resistance to regen and heal debuffs. It should also have scaling regeneration based on health levels (similar to Super Reflexes with scaling resists).

Reconstruction and Dull Pain are both unresistible so the set already completely ignores heal debuffs. Regen debuff resistance though... yeah, it needs way more of that (and should probably have higher passive regen and resistance since the only time Regen is really "regen" is when IH is up).

[Bopper]

6 minutes ago, macskull said:

Reconstruction and Dull Pain are both unresistible so the set already completely ignores heal debuffs. Regen debuff resistance though... yeah, it needs way more of that (and should probably have higher passive regen and resistance since the only time Regen is really "regen" is when IH is up).

Good point, I overlooked the Res(Heal) being unnecessary.

[Coyote]

My TW/Reg Brute looks fine, but that's because the damage mitigation from reliable knockdowns gives regeneration a chance to work, and also a chance to use the click powers, and also both sets benefit well from slotting IOs for +Recharge. Regen works fine when paired with a set that provides knockdowns or +Defense to slow down the rate of damage, so that the regeneration rate can keep up. It's not good at all when paired with a set that doesn't do that, or against ranged opponents. I also run an actual "defensive rotation" with IH, MoG, and Melee Hybrid. Before getting something like that, well... its lasting power is not especially great, but it IS especially weak to alpha strikes.

 

Probably some damage resistance or +Absorb to mitigate the alpha is what it needs the most. There are also rare cases where resistance to Regeneration debuffs would matter, but I think it just has problems against the base case of "a lot of damage coming in", AND against "a lot of debuffs coming in", which tend to compound each other.

[Gobbledigook]

A small auto absorb that gets better the lower your health that ticks every 2-3 seconds could be added to resilience might be a nice different way of buffing the set.

 

Other than that bump the resistance a little in resilience maybe.

 

Fast cast MoG.

 

Regen debuff resistance.

 

[GM ColdSpark]

Regen has always been an option I look at when I want a slightly different playstyle. So many of our sets work around avoiding or mitigating damage altogether which more often than lot allows players to focus on the offensive powerset wheraes with regen you've arguably got to be more on the ball, choosing when to deploy your big "hitting" heals. 

 

I don't think I've ever done a regen brute, only because when I build tanky toons (yes I know Brutes don't have to fill that role 🙂) I like to be able to put all my attention into protecting the rest of the teams green bars, and worrying less about my own. 

 

So it's a good set (in my very humble opinion of course), not without its issues for sure, but one that brings something different to the party.