Debate: Softcap for non-melee/defensive ATs often not worth it

[Zeraphia]

Hmm... So I'm building characters these days, and I used to stick pretty hardcore to the 35 and 45 numbers for Blasters/Corruptors/Controllers/et all. and while I don't find reaching the softcap to be a bad thing, I want to point out that it's really not all that bad to be 2-3% off, if that means you're gaining large amounts of recharge, procs, endurance management help, etc. in the current state of the game, Maneuvers is plentiful, as are defense inspirations. For those reasons, I don't think people should strictly adhere to the softcap rules and build (especially non-defense set ATs) for it if that means sacrificing other things. I have now played the ultimate low-bar Fire/Fire Blaster with a whopping 8% defense and about 10-30 resistance to each damage type, and I don't find I die all that frequently, further many enemy types also debuff the hell out of defense. While I'm not arguing "defense is useless unless it's in your secondary" I think it should take a backseat to proper endurance management, damage opportunity, utility, and recharge potentials.

 

I say this, because I come across many builds that meet the softcap, but take something like Agility which ruins proc chances on many moderate cooldown powers, doesn't have great endurance management, really low recharge (sub-120's), etc. and it blows my mind that their build was so kited out to chasing those tiny bits of defense when they could've gotten so much better damage potential and recharge for their powers by skipping on those defenses a bit and really nailing the other key aspects of a build. 

Edited April 20, 2021 by Zeraphia

[Snarky]

i play mostly Brutes.  Lately mostly a Dark/Dark Brute that doesnt have softcap Defense on anything.  Although his resists...I chased that lol.  

 

I just started experimenting with squishies again. I revived a parked (and stripped) Incarnate Dark/Dark.  I managed softcap Ranged, and in the process accidentally softcapped energy/negative.  He has good recharge and (to me) high damage.  

 

The best thing about CoH is "build your own"  We are not stuck in the wheel of 6-7 faces with 8-9 haircuts, the same armor everyone else is wearing, and 3 choices on attack builds.  

 

Now, everyone may not come up with "best in show" with their brain in a tank on a naked zombie wielding SS/Dark on a Brute chasing Ranged Defense.  But they are having fun!

[Grindingsucks]

I've never achieved softcap on any of my blasters and they all perform very well at +4/8.  Same with my controllers.  I haven't played Defenders or Corrupters enough to be certain if that's true with those ATs, but I suspect that it is.

 

I've never really understood why players are so obsessed with over-tuning characters, in a game that just isn't that difficult.  Maybe it's a legacy from live, before they implemented IO sets, incarnates, and what not, and you needed to think that way to get anywhere in the game?  🤷‍♂️

 

I concentrate on defense when running Super Reflexes toons (one of my favorite armor sets).  When I do that, I chase hardcap and often overtune to compensate for defense debuffs.  On the other hand, I rarely spend much time investing in resist on my SR characters.  This is more in theme with the set (IMO, it's about avoiding the damage- not soaking it up- superman analogues not withstanding) and makes it more exciting to play.  You almost never get hit- but if you do- BAM!

 

Keeps me on my toes.  😁👍

[SuperPlyx]

I have been bad about the "must hit softcap" on all my toons. Till I was building my new Dom and I just couldn't do everything I wanted it to do with defense that high. 

So it is maybe the only one I got with the defense in mid 30s. And really I can hardly tell it. I don't die any more often, and even when I do it's mostly my fault (chat death)

I will say (and I am not sure if this is the lower defense or the squishy AT) when things do go south ,they go south in a hurry. 

[Bunmaster]

Depends on how you play, i soft cap on certain toons, because i like racing others for the chance to open with a nuke. If you don't do that, yeah it is not needed. I also regularly join a group that does themed +4/8 Enemies buffed/Players debuffed stuff and other wacky shenanigans, so i do have some really really expensive toons.

 

There are several ways to have softcap def, like making it with 40 def with Barrier on CD makes sure you have atleast softcap 24/7. Have around 150% recharge or so with Ageless on CD and you have perma-hasten (and solve whatever End issues you have, also that precious DDR). If you plan with Incarnate powers in mind, you can get away with tons.

 

 

[Uun]

For non-melee ATs, I'm generally happy with defense somewhere in the 20s or 30s and moderate resists, particularly if they've got powers with -tohit. On teams, I find it's a non-issue, even with TFs or incarnate content, as there are usually plenty of buffs around. I don't solo much, and when I do I'm perfectly content to play at +1/x3 or +2/x4 (or whatever the equivalent is after level shift). The only time I really notice it is soloing on my blasters.

[Doomguide2005]

     My melee ATs yes, generally aimed for the softcap.  But many of them were SR or defense sets to begin with.  Funny to note my Main out of 150+ characters was a Claws/SR willing to jump into any mob often wasn't technically soft capped to AoE running at about 44%.  Though she could and did turn on Maneuvers at times especially while teamed.

     My dozen or so Empathy defenders, half of them at 50+ none had much if any defense.  The main 3 probably averaged maybe 3 to 5%.  Recharge on the other hand very high ~200% global.  That included one who solo'd plenty at "Invincible" and "Unyielding".  Cosmic Burst, Air Superiority, my Auras (cd maybe 20 to 30 seconds), inspires and the occasional Eye of Magus for the win.  Another did have a second build with capped Ranged defense intended to take on a 3 boss mob of level 54 Rikti (aka Scrapper challenge type rules).  That was a pre Incarnate build.  Other defenders and corruptors were similar and only Traps tended to hit near 32/33% defenses.

     Controllers, again focused on recharge.  Mez i.e. control them before they could mez/hurt me motto. Some defenses, epic shields but the focus was never on defense (or even resistance).  Stealth to allow the alpha strike after which they are controlled and cease to be a serious threat.

     So do I think a teaming support character needs to reach softcapped anything.  No and might very well be the wrong emphasis for the build.  Defenses are great but defense has never defeated anything directly or sometimes the best defense is a great offense, death is often the best debuff ... just watch out for those Fallout and Soul Drain users 😜

[Uruare]

I enjoy tricking my characters out to the max, and I don't enjoy having them get splattered.    The challenge of making something as unkillable as possible without making too many sacrifices to recharge and function is a mini-game I've enjoyed for years, and I'm pretty good at it.

 

 

 

 

[Apparition]

I play all characters no matter the AT as Brutes.  Mastermind?  Played as Brute.  Corruptor?  Played as Brute.  Blaster?  Played as Brute.  If there's a Tanker or Brute on the team, I'll compete with them for aggro... and usually win.  Sometimes I won't survive, but most times I do.  I've successfully tanked Romulus in the last mission of the ITF on both Blasters and Corruptors while there was a Tanker on the team. 

 

So, yes, I aim for softcap defenses on all characters, usually S/L/E.

 

As for the Agility Alpha, most of my characters take it.  I simply do not care about damage procs and anticipate the inevitable day that they're nerfed to the ground.  Trust me, it's coming.

[MTeague]

My only characters with softcap defenses have defense-oriented powersets.  SR, Energy Aura, Ninjitsu, etc. 

But all my characters generally have decent defenses, which I define as 27-33% range. Close enough to pop a luck or two. 

 

For my controllers / doms, ,it's generally not an issue. Within a couple attacks I've locked down the entire spawn and they're NOT getting away after that. 

Support characters, either I'm using a lot of debuffs, or I'm ragdolling them, or I'm tankerminding and incoming damage is pretty well distributed anyway.

For my blasters, *most* spawns solo, I do right fine with mid-range defense, and then pop some Luck's or an Adrenal Booster when Brown Matter Impacts the Rotating Blades.

 

But I honestly don't care if my characters can solo +4x8 or not.  It's nice.  But it doesn't govern my power selections.  Theme > All. 

 

[Neiska]

I think there is a lot of space in this topic for personal preferences, which is not a bad thing. But this can be broken down into several sub-points -

 

1. What difficulty are you playing on? This matters for enemies effective level (and required rolls) vs yours.

2. What activity are you doing? Are you playing spawn by spawn story mode, exploring the open world, or running into the midst of 15+ swarms of enemies?

3. Which AT are you playing? Some ATs/Styles are encouraged to defense softcap, others are more encouraged for the "you die first" mindset, while others are "lol whats damage" CC specialists, and still others are "get them my minions!". AT matters quite a bit as far as what is usually encouraged buildwise.

4. With which AT, which powersets are you using? Some sets have so much regen/recovery/absorb/resistance/other forms of mitigation, they could have 10% base and still be just fine.

5. Are you a theme/roleplay focused player, or do you min/max and try to redline your character with a dose of Superdyne with a burst of Aim/Buildup/Burnout for maximum carnage?

6. Perhaps most importantly of all, is the question - What are your personal tastes? Do you like being immortal? Or is "just enough" well, enough? Or do you focus on offense, and scrap as much survivability as you can manage? Or do you try to avoid the entirety of the equation with an "outside the box" thinking for a build? An example would be a friend of mine who plays energy blast/regen sentinel.  Basically they focus on keeping things at a distance or on their rumps, where his heavy healing is plenty for what damage he does end up taking.

 

None of these are wrong or incorrect. I would argue that the majority of the game, capping defenses/resistances isn't even needed, but some activities certainly require such.

 

Personally, I tend to think defensive minded, and favor Masterminds and Tanks. So my characters tend to be on the more durable side of things. Heck, I have messed about in mids just to see how far past the softcap one can go, just to do it.

 

So each to their own, as long as you personally are enjoying the game, and enjoy your character, then I say the rest is just garnish. In a game like CoH, only you can "grade" your character/theme/build/goals.

 

Best wishes

 

[Doomguide2005]

@Neiska You make some excellent points and categories.  From my point of view I see a missing factor, perhaps two -> is the character predominantly built for solo or team play.  And relatedly do you make frequent use of your alternate build options to handle different tasks (solo vs small team vs large team vs leagues, exemplar frequently, speed run TFs, etc).  

[arcane]

I rarely soft cap either. Usually between 20%-30% is my preference. I like procs too much and that tends to cut into my ability to reach for most defense set bonuses.
 

So I usually grab the defense from procs, pool toggles, and then maybe some ATO’s or Winter sets, but don’t go much further than that (you know - things like Artillery, Mako’s Bite, Expedient Reinforcement, Thunderstrike, etc. that are typically needed to round out the soft cap).
 

I also don’t typically like to forego an epic/patron resistance toggle in favor of a defense toggle. Sometimes because resistance, but most often because I just want the other goodies that come with resistance shields more than anything (Dominate, Soul Drain, Power Boost, Indomitable Will, Bonfire, etc.). 
 

I will totally make do with ~10-15% defense even if I really want to try something else in my pool picks, etc. Defense is just a component of survival. Being careful and tactical will keep you alive better than nearly any set bonuses.

[Yomo Kimyata]

You don't need to soft- or hard- cap any AT in order to solo content, except maybe AVs.  In my opinion.

[Bunmaster]

I totally agree with what Neiska said. It depends. I have built toons according to their concepts. Godlike toons require expensive builds, sidekicks are stuck, generic IO. I have a Crab that has End issues because his suit is supposed to overheat.

[SaintD]

Speed of play.

That's literally the one, singular thing it all boils down to. Hitting softcap means hitting the highest level of raw sustain for speedrunning content, since you're removing the largest possible amount of damage. Any less than softcap just means that you might be taking a knee a bit more often (or at all), or running a lower difficulty level that eats into your sheer time/reward ratio.

The issue is that CoX build discourse is dominated by infinite money and x4/x8. When you don't have infinite money, aren't trying to powergame the diff settings, or don't care about your clear times.....softcap isn't really critical.

[oedipus_tex]

I think the meta has shifted a bit away from softcapping with IOs. It's not that softcapping isn't still useful, it's that there are inspirations for Defense but not for Recharge or for damage procs. 

 

I aim for 32.5 Defense on most builds. That's one small purple away from soft capped. It's also more or less one medium strength -ToHit power on +3 enemies (at end game you don't actually fight +4s). 

 

Builds that specifically tackle archvillains may still find "real" soft capping useful because inspirations don't drop while you're fighting a long battle against a single long living target. I actually think that's a nice bit of balance through diversity. 

Edited April 21, 2021 by oedipus_tex

[Riverdusk]

17 minutes ago, oedipus_tex said:

I think the meta has shifted a bit away from softcapping with IOs. It's not that softcapping isn't still useful, it's that there are inspirations for Defense but not for Recharge or for damage procs. 

 

I aim for 32.5 Defense on most builds. That's one small purple away from soft capped. It's also more or less one medium strength -ToHit power on +3 enemies (at end game you don't actually fight +4s). 

 

Builds that specifically tackle archvillains may still find "real" soft capping useful because inspirations don't drop while you're fighting a long battle against a single long living target. I actually think that's a nice bit of balance through diversity. 

Very true.  Defense inspirations are a bit OP and easy to come by.  Even with only a modest 20 defense, a medium defense inspiration gets you the rest of the way and even mediums aren't too hard to come by later game.  Honestly to me that holds true even for an AV fight.  If I can't pack enough purple inspirations to last an AV fight (assuming using only one at a time), that AV fight is taking too long to be worth doing solo imo.   

 

 

[Sir Myshkin]

Putting a character together tends to be a unique player-specific thing, like having a finger print. Twenty players can put a build together and all end up with a different layout, even if they’re given the same end goals. For me there’s rarely a circumstance I can’t cram pretty much anything and everything into a build without even considering Incarnates, and that often includes soft cap defense of some form. Typically any Alpha slot I drop into a build will be Musculature or Intuition (w/ Dam), I just don’t often find any point or use for including any of the others.

 

Whether or not a build includes something like soft cap defense when it’s not a primary focus of the set(s) is entirely up to the player in my opinion, but there’s really no case to be made to say that it’s because “it can’t be built” to include those metrics because I know they can, it just sometimes takes a trained eye to see the best path for slotting.

[UberGuy]

Solo on max notoriety? That's what I build everything for, or strive for. To play that way, you're likely to want as much defense as you can muster without gimping something else important.

 

With that goal, the only things you wouldn't strive for high defense on are probably things that readily max resists instead, and even then probably only if it's a Brute, Tanker or Kheld, due to their higher resist caps. (SoAs share the Khedlian caps, but lack much in the way of capping their resists.) Reason being that 45% defense is, on average, better mitigation than 75% resist, and tends to avoid more attacks with fewer "types" than resist. That and high, wide-spectrum resist can be hard to achieve on anyone who doesn't come with a powerset sporting a good base to work off of.

 

Probably obviously, if you're playing something with a lot of debuffs or a lot of control, this can lower the bar for how much defense you need. I have Dark Miasma characters who sit right around 40% Ranged/En/Neg, and most of the time they do fine solo in really stressful content. The trick is what happens when foes come at you from multiple directions, or in overlapping ambushes that overrun your ability to maintain lockdown of the battlefield. What's when high def will (usually) help save your bacon. But some "oh crap" powers might do the trick here instead.

 

Building for team play, especially team play where you can depend on having someone to buff you and/or hold aggro? No, Being near the cap is nowhere near as meaningful. It still helps, obviously, but you're going to rely on it much, much less, so it makes sense to free "build space" for other goals.

Edited April 21, 2021 by UberGuy

[Sovera]

Why not? To me it's a mark of happy pride managing to shuffle the IO Tetris mini-game. Like when I'm checking some builds over the Tanker forums and people were happily bragging about their 90% resists while I'm just, myeah, but 90% is easy. What about 90% as well as 45% S/L? And then Hasten under 135? Because sometimes I'll see the opposite which is someone reaching for perma Hasten and we see the skeeviest of slotting chasing recharge bonuses up to and including slotting non damage sets into attacks.

 

I speak only for myself but that's what it is. Same as going to WoW and managing to earn enough in-game currency to pay for the sub. Is it because I can't afford it? No, a single of my frequent sushi meals would pay for the sub, but it's a mini-game for me.

 

 

What are we to even do with all the slots and powers? Once all attacks can be chained without gaps, endurance is taken care of, Hasten is down to under 140 second, everything is at ED caps and +3 mobs are at the cap to be hit... what else to spend the slots? Chase even more recharge?  I suppose whittling those 15-20 seconds off Hasten can be a goal, but why not defensive layers?

 

That's my reasoning anyway.

[Carnifax]

1 hour ago, Sovera said:

 

What are we to even do with all the slots and powers? Once all attacks can be chained without gaps, endurance is taken care of, Hasten is down to under 140 second, everything is at ED caps and +3 mobs are at the cap to be hit... what else to spend the slots? Chase even more recharge?  I suppose whittling those 15-20 seconds off Hasten can be a goal, but why not defensive layers?

This is my take on it too. A lot of my choices are also based on the fact I don't bother much with Purples (other than procs) and Winters, so my builds tend to go for Def & Recharge from non-purple sets. With a few choice powers for proccing up. 

 

I don't sweat it too much if I drop a few % off softcaps though because I wanted some natty power instead of Fighting, or even an Epic pool. And I generally only worry about 1 thing to cap, depending on the character (except my Plant/Storm who hit S/L and ranged caps almost by accident somehow). 

 

 

[Crysis]

Outside of a couple /SR characters and a Bots/Time MM I never hit softcapped DEF until late 40’s and usually 50.  I could but to your point it’s not usually worth it without running a sub-par build for damage.  And it’s very easy to achieve soft capped DEF to positional or typed past 50 without even trying that hard.

 

Chase the fun first.  When dying too much interrupts your fun -then- chase a Def or Res soft cap.

[Nemu]

Yes and no. It's not needed for lowbie teams running +0 or Incarnate teams where destinies and judgements are all over the place and where incarnate shift puts you at -1 to level 54 mobs. I've run speed Yin or Citadel with only 28% ish S/L defense on my melee blaster and did fine but I also suspect killing stuff fast and inducing mob fear AI contributes a lot of that blaster's survival. Squishies that kill slower may find that level of defense insufficient in a drawn out war of attrition, the damage/debuff from fodder really add up.  If it was just them vs a vanilla boss or two I think 28-30%ish defense is more than sufficient to deal with them.

 

It absolutely makes a difference on those level 25 +4 Talos radio teams and most pre-incarnate teams at +4. PUGs mean you don't always have the benefit of support.

 

It also matters what you are fighting. Warriors and council and the like,,, you can sleep through those. Arachnos, IDF, vanguard, etc,,,? Yeah it makes a noticeable difference, Even if the tarantula mistress debuff hits you'd still have around 25-30% defense and that helps shrug off a few attacks from other fodder, especially the mu attacks that drain your end.

 

I get the theory for building for 1-2 purple insp short of softcap and shore up on resist and take ROP. The benefits presented being that ROP = breakfree+rugged and you can take more hits with resist and it helps you diversify your inspiration use to beyond just breakfrees on squishies, and that you can shift build focus towards more recharge/procs. I tried such a build on my melee blaster against +4 non incarnate arachnos radios with a PUG team in founders, hated it. I had to deal with getting hit more which meant I also had to deal with blind, mez, and end drain. I NEVER get detoggled due to my end getting drained on my def softcapp build, and I was getting detoggled due to that multiple times in the mission with the ROP build, and on top of that ROP is up 50% of the time at best. Whereas with a softcapped build I only needed to worry about breakfrees and a purple or yellow to handle the def debuffs every now and then, now I have to chug yellows, blues, purples, greens, and even breakfrees during ROP downtime. Being true +4 con means I'm also not two shotting everything outside of inferno, and my defenses don't hold up over time in this battle of attrition. That build is an end game build or at the very least, a build more dependent on team buffs/incarnates. I prefer not to rely on incarnates to reach my performance expectations. That is an important consideration for those that like to exemp down.

 

I understand the squish factor of going with a defense epic, but I never had too many problems with that. The key is movement and knowing when to get out of the danger zone.

[tidge]

I don't want to yuck in anyone else's yum; I have a different opinion than some regarding "caps".

 

As far as Defense goes, it's pretty much only my Super Reflexes characters and VEATs that have me at/above the Defense caps (solo). Those purple inspirations have an actual purpose. Chewing the floor isn't the end of the fun.

 

I also tend to not go out of my way to hit the hard caps for S/L (or other types of) Resistance. This is not to say I advocate gimped Tanks, it's just that IMO characters not designed to soak up damage almost certainly have a better use for power picks, enhancement slots, and set choices.

 

in a similar vein, chasing multiple %proc damage in the attacks from DPS-oriented character (especially single-target attacks) strikes me as something that ought to come after actually enhancing the attacks and finding useful set bonuses.